2018 Macbook Pro Touchbar has NO Data Recovery Port!

[jk441]

3 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

It actually would be impossible to fit an M.2 drive inside any of the MacBook Pros on the market. 

If they stopped forcing the "We want everything to be as thin as possible" design it probably would've been possible. Didn't the 2015 models have m.2 ssds? I wish Apple were more flexible on their design methodology specially for the Pro line up

[captain_to_fire]

11 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Oh lovely

The advantage of hardware based encryption enforced by the custom T2 chip is that user data is protected at rest while having minimal read/write penalty. It’s not Apple’s fault that the user can’t be bothered to use Time Machine which nowadays works well with cheapo external hard drives to NAS like Synology and WD. 

 

So I don’t really see this as a huge issue for prioritizing security. 

[jk441]

Just now, VegetableStu said:

proprietary. sorry.

ewww... but at least it was replaceable i guess...

[Thaldor]

Even funnier this makes that the Touch bar houses the Touch ID which is used as the power button. Touch ID is coupled with the T2-chip meaning, you break your touch bar/Touch ID that might be a new logic board and you just lost all your data, have a good day. (iFixit)

 

Let's just face. (Take a deep breath, clear your mind, be calm as an ocean) No one is that interested of your My Little Pony fanfiction that they would be going through even your password that probably is "Ra1nbow".

 

Like how big percentual amount of paople actually need that level of security with that great "costs"?

Like sure some 0,1% of people actually could use "few C4-blocks instead of batteries" level of security, but they probably aren't buying a conventional laptop from the same markets as normal consumers. For normal consumers something like software based encryption is even more than enough and more conventional because it can be actually reverted and not every single small problem with your machine means loosing your data. Just like selling a laptop that has ruggedness needed for MIL-standards to normal consumers is just stupid, so is selling a laptop that has more of a security that would be needed for some CEO (I don't again mean your My Little Pony fanfiction store which no one really even does want to rob) or some IT-specialist who could carry some information that is actually more expensive than that laptop.

In probably 99% of cases your computer doesn't include that kind of information that someone other than your ex-partner or partner would be willing go through something as small as AES-128 encryption with a weak password.

[mynameisjuan]

47 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

In probably 99% of cases your computer doesn't include that kind of information that someone other than your ex-partner or partner would be willing go through something as small as AES-128 encryption with a weak password.

I cant agree more. People are begging for this security but only a handful of people will actually need it that one time. What is everyone so protective about on their PCs? Government going to hack in your phone? Wife going to break in to check your FB messages? Random stranger going to try to break in to steal your nudies? 

 

Its too much security where its biting people in the ass if they actually forgot their password or god forbid hardware encryption like the macbook and the board is not bootable. Simple password is plenty. 

 

This is of course different between business and consumers, there should be an option to enable the T2 chip. 

[Stefan Payne]

5 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

It actually would be impossible to fit an M.2 drive inside any of the MacBook Pros on the market. 

No, its only difficult but not impossible.

You need a special side connector for that that is soldered on top and buttom of the PCB, where you can insert the M2 Drive.

You don't need to mount that on top of the Board.

 

I don't remember the Board but it was AFAIR at the end of the 90s/early 2000s where there were some (OEM!) Boards that had a PCI Slot soldered to the edge of the PCB, half of it soldered on the top, half of it on the buttom.

For Apple it should be possible to make a similar Edge Connector.

Or just use an m2 slot on the side and connect it with an m2 connector on both sides.

 

There are solutions, the Problem is that Apple doesn't want that.

 

TL:DR:
Just cut out the Part of the SSD on the PCB and use a special edge connector that doesn't increase height. Easy as that.

[Blade of Grass]

6 hours ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

Then they must, god forbid, make the machine larger. A soldered unrecoverable-if-the-board-dies storage device is NOT what I'd consider professional.

 

Yes, time machine works, and works well, but it really isn't an excuse for making a board's storage soldered and unrecoverable. 

What professional doesn’t have a backup of their data? Data protection 101, have a backup. 

2 hours ago, VegetableStu said:

proprietary. sorry.

I don’t believe it’s proprietary, it’s just one of the other SATA connection standard, I think mSATA?

2 hours ago, Thaldor said:

Even funnier this makes that the Touch bar houses the Touch ID which is used as the power button. Touch ID is coupled with the T2-chip meaning, you break your touch bar/Touch ID that might be a new logic board and you just lost all your data, have a good day. (iFixit)

 

Let's just face. (Take a deep breath, clear your mind, be calm as an ocean) No one is that interested of your My Little Pony fanfiction that they would be going through even your password that probably is "Ra1nbow".

 

Like how big percentual amount of paople actually need that level of security with that great "costs"?

Like sure some 0,1% of people actually could use "few C4-blocks instead of batteries" level of security, but they probably aren't buying a conventional laptop from the same markets as normal consumers. For normal consumers something like software based encryption is even more than enough and more conventional because it can be actually reverted and not every single small problem with your machine means loosing your data. Just like selling a laptop that has ruggedness needed for MIL-standards to normal consumers is just stupid, so is selling a laptop that has more of a security that would be needed for some CEO (I don't again mean your My Little Pony fanfiction store which no one really even does want to rob) or some IT-specialist who could carry some information that is actually more expensive than that laptop.

In probably 99% of cases your computer doesn't include that kind of information that someone other than your ex-partner or partner would be willing go through something as small as AES-128 encryption with a weak password.

This is a ludicrous assertion. You literally are arguing that increased seamless security is a bad thing. Apple developed seamless technology to do this and released to the mass market so that everyone (security savvy or not) has it accessible to them. In what world is this a BAD thing?

 

You ignore the reality that MacBook Pros are frequently used in corporate environments. Corporate environments frequently REQUIRE data to be encrypted at rest. Why would Apple not cater to this need and make it automatic and seamless?

[schwellmo92]

21 minutes ago, Blade of Grass said:

What professional doesn’t have a backup of their data? Data protection 101, have a backup. 

I don’t believe it’s proprietary, it’s just one of the other SATA connection standard, I think mSATA?

This is a ludicrous assertion. You literally are arguing that increased seamless security is a bad thing. Apple developed seamless technology to do this and released to the mass market so that everyone (security savvy or not) has it accessible to them. In what world is this a BAD thing?

 

You ignore the reality that MacBook Pros are frequently used in corporate environments. Corporate environments frequently REQUIRE data to be encrypted at rest. Why would Apple not cater to this need and make it automatic and seamless?

I'm what you would consider a "professional" and work alongside many other "professionals" I don't know any that actively backup their data, everything of importance is stored in cloud/network services.

 

Secondly, encryption is reversible by definition, Apple just aren't giving out the key to the users so they can de-crypt their own data. It is possible to have you security pie and eat it (unless you have a MBP apparently).

[Thaldor]

3 minutes ago, Blade of Grass said:

This is a ludicrous assertion. You literally are arguing that increased seamless security is a bad thing. Apple developed seamless technology to do this and released to the mass market so that everyone (security savvy or not) has it accessible to them. In what world is this a BAD thing?

 

You ignore the reality that MacBook Pros are frequently used in corporate environments. Corporate environments frequently REQUIRE data to be encrypted at rest. Why would Apple not cater to this need and make it automatic and seamless?

Security is always a two-bladed weapon.

 

In the case of MBP 2018 you have very good security that is probably quite well unbreakable. The cost of it is that when your TouchID (which I could believe is quite prone to break because it being the power button also) or any other part of the hardware security breaks (mainly the logic board), you loose your data. For most of the people that level of security is more harming than useful.

 

As said this level of security is very good and needed in some cases, like in corporate enviroments. For a general consumer or even someone who doesn't handle corporate secrets on their laptop, this is kind of same level of defense as shooting a fly with a bazooka. In the situations where this level of security is needed the security would be taken to the end, even the backups of backups would be secured at the same level, meaning going through single use passwords and more authentication than simple password or login on a timecapsule. And even in corporate enviroment hardware based encryption is really not that great at least in these dimensions because with software based encryption you can get to the same level of protection with less negative effects.

In probably 80-90% of cases we are talking about people securing their vacation photos to a maximum security bank vault while at the same time those same photos are in a nice little book in their home, minus side being if they forget to print out that nice little book and they loose the key to the vault, those photos are gone. If someone was really that interested and committed to get those photos, they would get them elsewhere much easier (cloud, social network, the backups and the album) leaving the general consumer with only the minus side of loosing their not backuped data if something breaks.

 

It's very good that it is there, just to cater everybodies needs. But having it on as default is mostly excessive and needless.

[Blade of Grass]

11 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said:

I'm what you would consider a "professional" and work alongside many other "professionals" I don't know any that actively backup their data, everything of importance is stored in cloud/network services.

So... it’s backed up to the cloud? 

11 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said:

Secondly, encryption is reversible by definition, Apple just aren't giving out the key to the users so they can de-crypt their own data. It is possible to have you security pie and eat it (unless you have a MBP apparently).

Yes, the keys are stored on device in the Secure Enclave, but you can also create recovery keys too. 

[Blade of Grass]

8 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

Security is always a two-bladed weapon.

 

In the case of MBP 2018 you have very good security that is probably quite well unbreakable. The cost of it is that when your TouchID (which I could believe is quite prone to break because it being the power button also) or any other part of the hardware security breaks (mainly the logic board), you loose your data. For most of the people that level of security is more harming than useful.

 

As said this level of security is very good and needed in some cases, like in corporate enviroments. For a general consumer or even someone who doesn't handle corporate secrets on their laptop, this is kind of same level of defense as shooting a fly with a bazooka. In the situations where this level of security is needed the security would be taken to the end, even the backups of backups would be secured at the same level, meaning going through single use passwords and more authentication than simple password or login on a timecapsule. And even in corporate enviroment hardware based encryption is really not that great at least in these dimensions because with software based encryption you can get to the same level of protection with less negative effects.

In probably 80-90% of cases we are talking about people securing their vacation photos to a maximum security bank vault while at the same time those same photos are in a nice little book in their home, minus side being if they forget to print out that nice little book and they loose the key to the vault, those photos are gone. If someone was really that interested and committed to get those photos, they would get them elsewhere much easier (cloud, social network, the backups and the album) leaving the general consumer with only the minus side of loosing their not backuped data if something breaks.

 

It's very good that it is there, just to cater everybodies needs. But having it on as default is mostly excessive and needless.

FileVault is not enabled by default. It’s similar to BitLocker (1 click enabling). 

 

Edit: also, haven’t heard of a lot of complaints about TouchID breaking, just the keyboard. 

[spartaman64]

18 hours ago, 2FA said:

Any other brand of laptop with encryption will have the same exact issue. Crucifying Apple over better security is comical.

why dont apple allow people to pull out the encrypted data and then they can apply the decryption key

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

why dont apple allow people to pull out the encrypted data and then apply the decryption key

If the hardware encryption in the MBP works the same way as in iPhones, the matching key is generated locally and tied to the hardware. No set of masterkeys available.

[2FA]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

why dont apple allow people to pull out the encrypted data and then they can apply the decryption key

It's hardware based encryption which requires you having the drive, your password, and the hardware encryption chip in order to decrypt the data.

[spartaman64]

Just now, Drak3 said:

If the hardware encryption in the MBP works the same way as in iPhones, the matching key is generated locally and tied to the hardware. No set of masterkeys available.

and theres no way to access the key? that sucks

[2FA]

1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

and theres no way to access the key? that sucks

Confidentiality, Integrity, Availability. 

 

You can' the have the best of all three so you have to make compromises. You want it more secure? Well be prepared to lose some availability and ease of access.

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

and theres no way to access the key? that sucks

You could try guessing it based on whatever criteria is used to generate keys.

 

Or, if the chips that house the key and board ID info can be safely and reliably tansfered to a new mainboard, it IS theoretically possible.

[schwellmo92]

10 minutes ago, 2FA said:

Confidentiality, Integrity, Availability. 

 

You can' the have the best of all three so you have to make compromises. You want it more secure? Well be prepared to lose some availability and ease of access.

The worrying thing is that it’s on by default, FileVault would’ve been more than enough for the general consumer and at least that way you have the keys for decrypting your data.

[schwellmo92]

15 minutes ago, 2FA said:

It's hardware based encryption which requires you having the drive, your password, and the hardware encryption chip in order to decrypt the data.

You don’t technically need the T2 chip you just need the keys, the issue here is that the T2 chip generates the encryption keys and those keys never leave the T2 chip.

[spartaman64]

13 minutes ago, 2FA said:

Confidentiality, Integrity, Availability. 

 

You can' the have the best of all three so you have to make compromises. You want it more secure? Well be prepared to lose some availability and ease of access.

you think enterprises the people who need security the most are not able to decrypt their data? 

[captain_to_fire]

19 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

why dont apple allow people to pull out the encrypted data and then they can apply the decryption key

Since the T2 chip of the MacBook Pro also has the same Secure Enclave co-processor used by the iPhone, then what you're suggesting might be very difficult assuming it's the same encryption as the iPhone

Quote

Every time a file on the data partition is created, Data Protection creates a new 256-bit key (the “per-file” key) and gives it to the hardware AES engine, which uses the key to encrypt the file as it is written to flash memory using AES CBC mode. (On devices with an A8 or later processor, AES-XTS is used.) The initialization vector (IV) is calculated with the block offset into the file, encrypted with the SHA-1 hash of the per-file key. The per-file (or per-extent) key is wrapped with one of several class keys, depending on the circumstances under which the file should be accessible. Like all other wrappings, this is performed using NIST AES key wrapping, per RFC 3394. The wrapped per-file key is stored in the file’s metadata.

 

When a file is opened, its metadata is decrypted with the file system key, revealing the wrapped per-file key and a notation on which class protects it. The per-file (or per-extent) key is unwrapped with the class key, then supplied to the hardware AES engine, which decrypts the file as it is read from flash memory. All wrapped file key handling occurs in the Secure Enclave; the file key is never directly exposed to the application processor. At boot, the Secure Enclave negotiates an ephemeral key with the AES engine. When the Secure Enclave unwraps a file’s keys, they are rewrapped with the ephemeral key and sent back to the application processor.

The content of a file may be encrypted with one or more per-file (or per-extent) keys that are wrapped with a class key and stored in a file’s metadata, which in turn is encrypted with the file system key. The class key is protected with the hardware UID and, for some classes, the user’s passcode. This hierarchy provides both flexibility and performance. For example, changing a file’s class only requires rewrapping its per-file key, and a change of passcode just rewraps the class key.

 

Source: https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

 

6 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said:

The worrying thing is that it’s on by default, FileVault would’ve been more than enough for the general consumer and at least that way you have the keys for decrypting your data.

I'm guessing the encryption provided by the T2 chip is file level encryption which is also used by the iPhone. Don't quote me on this but it's possible that file level encryption doesn't impose a significant read/write penalty unlike full disk encryption that is FileVault. Also, one disadvantage with FileVault is that once the password is typed, all disk contents becomes unencrypted. https://www.symantec.com/content/en/us/enterprise/white_papers/b-pgp_how_wholedisk_encryption_works_WP_21158817.en-us.pdf

Quote

Whole disk encryption cannot protect you when you have logged into the system during startup and then leave your computer unattended. Unauthorized users could open any file on the disk. This is where file encryption comes in. Just like an alarm system protects an entire home and a safe provides additional security, whole disk encryption protects the entire system, and file encryption provides an additional layer of security. File encryption encrypts specific files and when a user successfully authorizes to an operating system, the contents of the file remain encrypted.

 

[captain_to_fire]

1 hour ago, schwellmo92 said:

Apple just aren't giving out the key to the users so they can de-crypt their own data.

Just imagine a whole can of worms if Apple allowed users to access encryption keys inside the secure enclave. When it comes to security, there will always be compromises that's why timely backups are essential. @leadeater does regular backups snapshots at his work.

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by captain_to_fire

[2FA]

20 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

you think enterprises the people who need security the most are not able to decrypt their data? 

Enterprise people make backups and don't need to worry about a bricked drive.

[spartaman64]

2 minutes ago, 2FA said:

Enterprise people make backups and don't need to worry about a bricked drive.

Yes but if they want to you think they can't

[2FA]

Just now, spartaman64 said:

Yes but if they want to you think they can't

Please write a proper english sentence, I have zero idea what you meant by that post.