Prison For Making "Counterfeit" Windows Restore Disks

[mr moose]

13 minutes ago, asus killer said:

the copies were seized at customs so you can only guess what he was going to do with them. You can believe we went to all this trouble (order from china printed dvds and not just copied some blank dvds at his home) because he wanted to help people that lost their copies or that we was a ass trying to make money out of it. It's up to us to decide what is most likely.

He shot himself in the foot on that one because he spent $80K on the discs, like any investment of $80k in pirated software he had trouble arguing/proving it was not for profit.

[Fetzie]

1 hour ago, Arokhantos said:

 

The value is in the license key not the copy of windows.

Linux is open source but I'm not allowed to resell Ubuntu DVDs from computing magazines because I do not own a license to do so.

[TechyBen]

5 hours ago, kenblu24 said:

I would love to hear John chime in on this in the WAN show, because there's gotta be some legal insanity going on here.

Yeah, it's all legal proper stuff... but it's akin to sending that kid who Torrented an ipod of music to jail for 50 years because "the ipod had $$$billions of dollars of stolen content" type logic.

 

Fine the guy, impound the "counterfeits", and let him just relable them as "PCGuy repair disks" and everything is back to normal (he could literally be a man in the middle internet provider offering postal HTTP "download" from their server to get out of the "distribution" claim).

 

I also love how people are claiming, if a legal download is put on a CD, it magically becomes "pirating". Lol.

[Spotty]

7 minutes ago, asus killer said:

i agree with you, but he spent only 3.400usd

The $3,400 value was when an associate agreed to purchase a number of counterfeit discs from Lundgreen as part of an undercover sting. That wasn't the cost of producing the 28,000 discs.
 

Quote

Wolff, however, eventually offered to buy at least some of the 28,000 discs that Lundgren hadn’t yet sold, and he paid $3,400. What Lundgren likely didn’t realize, though, was that Wolff was cooperating with federal authorities the whole time. (The government supplied that $3,400 payment.)
_{https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/why-the-man-who-tried-to-sell-windows-recovery-discs-will-go-to-prison/}

Quote

In 2012, U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers detained several shipments of discs that Lundgren had shipped to Wolff from China.
_{https://www.polygon.com/windows/2018/4/25/17280178/eric-lundgren-windows-restore-disks-microsoft-prison}

Wolff had already been caught by authorities in connection with the counterfeit CDs as the shipment that was seized by custom authorities was being shipped to Wolff. In exchange for possibility of a reduced sentence he agreed to turn on Lundgren and help provide authorities with information that could lead to Lundgrens arrest. That is when Wolff and the authorities set up a transaction for the purchase of additional copies of counterfeit CDs from Lundgren in exchange for $3,400.

That said, 28,000 CDs for $80,000 would equate to $2.85 per CD, which seems way too high of a price for counterfeit CDs made in China even with shipping considered. I guess it's possible that more CDs were made (or planned to be made) but were never shipped to America.

[Deus Voltage]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

I'm not watching Youtube trash if you can't be bothered typing a response.

With all due respect, that says a lot more about you than the video. I expected better. 

[DildorTheDecent]

>Mr anti e-waste buys a shitload of disks that have to be scrapped

 

Good meme.

[Wolther]

Downloads a YouTube music video 

Burns it onto a cd 

Sells for $3 per cd

 

Just because it’s ‘free’ does not make it legal

[Razor Blade]

I don't think the guy should have gone to prison. That's effed up. The judge should have just ordered restitution to Microsoft for damages and called it a day. Instead tax payers are going to pay to put that guy in prison for 15 months.

[LAwLz]

What he did was illegal. There isn't really any point in debating that.

What can be debated is whether the law is correct and if the punishment fit the crime. I don't think what he did was that serious so the sentence seems very severe.

 

Also, no need to try and demonize him by making up stuff like "he was going to sell them with a keygen" because that's just inane accusations.

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, Fetzie said:

Linux is open source but I'm not allowed to resell Ubuntu DVDs from computing magazines because I do not own a license to do so.

You are absolutely, 100% allowed to resell or even print your own Ubuntu DVDs if you so desire.

It's worth noting that you are allowed to do so because the licenses used by Ubuntu and its components allows it though, not because the software itself is free as in free beer.

[Spotty]

2 minutes ago, Arokhantos said:

Your choice to remain ignorant not mine.

There's a number of inaccuracies and misinformation in Rossman's video.

For instance in Louis Rossmans video he repeatedly states that Lundgren obtained the software by downloading the software for free off the internet. That's untrue as Lundgren admitted that he purchased a genuine CD from an associate (Wolff) for $5 and then made copies of that disc. In the video Rossman claims that Lundgren thought that the software was free and that he would be allowed to distribute it however he wanted, however that is also stupid and untrue as Lundgren knew that the disc (that he purchased) was sold to repairers. If he thought that the disc and the software contained on it was free, why would he have paid $5 to purchase it from his associate Wolff?

Louis Rossman also actively claims that the CDs that were made could not be considered as counterfeit copies, despite the fact that the CDs were printed with a label designed to be indistinguishable from original genuine copies. He also claims that it is impossible for it to be considered as counterfeit as the software remained the same and the "ones and zeros were the same".

Quote

"That is not counterfeit. The ones and zeros it either is or it isn't. It either passes the checksum or it fails the checksum. But there's no- You can't say that if I burn the exe file of your software that that is now counterfeit because I burned a copy of it"... "This is not counterfeit. This is a complete lie."
_{approx 8:40 in his video https://youtu.be/FaoJErxYLtM?t=521}

This would be akin to saying that creating bootleg copies of movies and selling them at the flea market isn't counterfeiting because "the movie is still the same".

Let's also not forget that Lundgren plead guilty to the charges of counterfeiting and criminal copyright infringement, and the appeal which he recently lost was not over the charges or the verdict, but was over the length of the prison sentence he received.

While I do occasionally watch some of Louis Rossman's videos, I have to say he has it wrong in this case. Given Rossman is a vocal advocate for the "right to repair" movement, I am not surprised that he is supporting Lundgren, however I feel his support is misplaced in this instance and his video only serves to misinform others by incorrectly making claims that what Lundgren did was not copyright infringement or counterfeiting, even though the defendant himself has admitted it was.
 

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

What he did was illegal. There isn't really any point in debating that.

What can be debated is whether the law is correct and if the punishment fit the crime.

Exactly this.
You can debate all you want about whether or not 15 months is appropriate, but trying to debate that what he did was not illegal is ridiculous, especially considering Lundgren pleaded guilty to the charges.

[LAwLz]

Just now, Arokhantos said:

You can download an iso of windows right off Microsoft web page and burn it, how is that illegal

It's illegal if the license Microsoft has written doesn't permit it. You are downloading something that is copyrighted by Microsoft and because of that you are not allowed to use it however you want without their permission.

[Spotty]

Just now, Arokhantos said:

You can download an iso of windows right off Microsoft web page and burn it, how is that illegal

It would be illegal if you made a commercial quantity of those discs and designed them in a way that they would be indistinguishable from the genuine discs that are available for purchase. I guarantee if you look at your authentic windows 7 install disc that the printed label will read "Do not make illegal copies of this disc" (or something to that effect).

I don't know if Microsoft still does it with modern operating systems, but it used to possible to purchase a windows disc (without license key) for restore purposes from Microsofts website. It would be on their page for iso download and it would be under a link for "Can't download" or something that would then take you to another page. They would post the disc out to you and you could use that to restore your version of windows. Back in the days of dial-up internet it wasn't always possible to download an entire operating system, so if you wanted a copy to repair your system and didn't have an original disc, you would have to pay to have a disc posted to you. From memory the cost of the disc was nominal and mainly to cover the cost of production and shipping, something like $10 or $15 or something from memory. I think the last time I saw this option was when I was on dial-up trying to repair my XP system, however I wasn't able to buy it since I was too young to have a credit card at the time.
I think you could also get service pack updates the same way too, again for a nominal fee to cover costs the disc and shipping.

[TechyBen]

To paraphrase... the law is an... (fill in the blanks).

 

However, yes, he was stupid in 1) Copying the disks, not the *service* and downloads instead. 2) Putting logos on then. 3) being greedy enough to sell to somone greedy enough to sell out to MS.

 

If he'd downloaded the files, offered the CD as a "service to download and install software" (thus side stepping distribution, he was just pressing the button on behalf of the customer and charging for pressing the button), and did not sell to third parties, he'd be free.

 

"Admittance" means nothing in these cases, as usually plea bargains, people would admit to being Martians if it got them off life sentences and a million dollar fine (while not so in this case, MS could have twisted his thumbs enough for a plea bargain).

[PuneetX]

Just now, Wolther said:

Downloads a YouTube music video 

Burns it onto a cd 

Sells for $3 per cd

 

Just because it’s ‘free’ does not make it legal

that is not a free software media intended to use to play only. But cd rom image easily available at del hp and other manufacture site and burn these disk which only can run whose system which have license key. I don't get it.

[Spotty]

7 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

being greedy enough to sell to somone greedy enough to sell out to MS

Are you talking about his associate Wolff? Wolff sold him out to the US government after the authorities intercepted a shipment of counterfeit discs that were addressed to Wolff. Microsoft had no involvement in that.
 

9 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

"Admittance" means nothing in these cases, as usually plea bargains, people would admit to being Martians if it got them off life sentences and a million dollar fine (while not so in this case, MS could have twisted his thumbs enough for a plea bargain).

A guilty plea may not mean much to you, but it means a lot in the justice system.

You seem to be of the belief that Microsoft were the ones that were pursuing Lundgren. Microsoft weren't twisting anyones thumbs. The case was not a civil matter or civil copyright infringement case launched by Microsoft. It was a criminal case launched by the United States Government after following through on investigations after border and custom authorities discovered a shipment of counterfeit CDs being imported in to the country. Microsoft representatives were only brought in as a witness for the government in the criminal case since it was their copyrighted property that was being infringed upon.

 

I am not a lawyer, but I think if Microsoft actually wanted to screw with this guy then they could possibly have grounds to launch civil action against Lundgren for his copyright infringement and seek damages through civil action. (Maybe John can help give insight on whether or not Microsoft have grounds to launch civil action against him?) My guess is that since he made so little money from the enterprise, it probably wouldn't be worth the legal fees and lawyer costs for Microsoft to pursue legal action against him, and since he has already faced criminal charges for the matter there's little reason for them to do it on the basis of it being a deterrent.

[PuneetX]

Just now, Spotty said:

It would be illegal if you made a commercial quantity of those discs and designed them in a way that they would be indistinguishable from the genuine discs that are available for purchase. I guarantee if you look at your authentic windows 7 install disc that the printed label will read "Do not make illegal copies of this disc" (or something to that effect).

I don't know if Microsoft still does it with modern operating systems, but it used to possible to purchase a windows disc (without license key) for restore purposes from Microsofts website. It would be on their page for iso download and it would be under a link for "Can't download" or something that would then take you to another page. They would post the disc out to you and you could use that to restore your version of windows. Back in the days of dial-up internet it wasn't always possible to download an entire operating system, so if you wanted a copy to repair your system and didn't have an original disc, you would have to pay to have a disc posted to you. From memory the cost of the disc was nominal and mainly to cover the cost of production and shipping, something like $10 or $15 or something from memory. I think the last time I saw this option was when I was on dial-up trying to repair my XP system, however I wasn't able to buy it since I was too young to have a credit card at the time.
I think you could also get service pack updates the same way too, again for a nominal fee to cover costs the disc and shipping.

one second the iso that you can download from Microsoft site are trail so that nothing , they just are trail that Microsoft intend. how can be illegal. And look may be everyone is not capable to do that if someone provide them cd or dvd for that in the cost, I don't think that's wrong.

And what happen here did you remember you have disk came with your computer to recovery, that now not a thing now. That's why manufacture release a recovery disk iso to those system which only able to run on those system(manufacture) only. That sold here for only 25 cent so only cost only. So now computer is old but with licences that you can see as a sticker you want to download a iso that can repair or reinstall system which provided by the manufacturers. So you burn them a cd which only run on those system which have license I don't get it where is get illegal.

And he are in business of selling refurnished so he burn them in the disk for customer that they only able to use as disk can run with indented system only which have license.

So he copy only disk which are without any licence available for free by manufacture. and tool are free and provided for help not for the business as sell for 25 cent that is only cost. Customer have a right for it. How the hell Microsoft came in path these disk is not like that anyone and any system run them. that is specific.

[PuneetX]

Just now, Wolther said:

Downloads a YouTube music video 

Burns it onto a cd 

Sells for $3 per cd

 

Just because it’s ‘free’ does not make it legal

and if there is iso available for download from official mean there intentional mean is burn it into disk only.

while youtube have intention to play music there is that intention. that is different thing. 

[mynameisjuan]

So a guy was making recover disk for people and selling them for essentially the cost of the CD and that deserves jail time.... I mean if he was selling them for $20+ bucks then yeah...but he was probably not even breaking even. 

[Wolther]

1 hour ago, PuneetX said:

and if there is iso available for download from official mean there intentional mean is burn it into disk only.

while youtube have intention to play music there is that intention. that is different thing. 

My point was copyright, and making money off of software you didn’t make. Just like making money off of music you didn’t make 

[TimeOmnivore]

I hate that people go to jail for dumb shit like this. He broke the law, sure, but something this benign shouldn't be punished with serving time; at worst, he should have just been fined. It would be nice if the only people going to jail/prison were those who caused physical/emotional/mental harm to another person or were a part of government corruption - not copyright infringement and all that other bullshit. Sucks for this guy, but oh well, nothing to be really done about it at this point.

[Drak3]

11 hours ago, asus killer said:

But this guy deserves this, trying to make money with other peoples work is not fine.

The discs were being sold at a loss.

[asus killer]

19 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

The discs were being sold at a loss.

1st link says it wanted to sell for 25 cents

"Lundgren had 28,000 of these disks made and shipped to Florida, where he and a broker planned to sell them to computer repair shops for about 25 cents each."

 

3rd link said we bought them for 5 cents

"Eric Lundgren atop a pile of 48,000 “restore CDs” he purchased recently for less than 5 cents apiece."

[Tuloth]

7 hours ago, Arokhantos said:

 

The laptops he refurbishes often have license key under them every laptop has one unless its been removed.

 

http://www.ubergizmo.com/how-to/find-windows-product-key/ 

 

Some old laptops come with license key but there wiped have no install disc, what he simply did is provide those install disc from as far i understood, as license keys came with the laptops.

I spent several years working in an E-Cycling shop.  Unless you are a licensed Microsoft Distributor, advertising and selling a device with a Microsoft product is illegal.  Even if it has a COA ON THE DEVICE, that you can clearly pick up and see, the device is sold as No OS included.  Now, as soon as you get home you can create an install disk and install with that key, but I can't sell it to you on the basis of it having that software.  If you ask about the COA I just have to say "It is sold as is, with no OS or other software pre-installed".  It led to some pretty dumb conversations between people who knew what it was and myself.  

[mr moose]

10 hours ago, Arokhantos said:

 

Your choice to remain ignorant not mine.

Maybe if you have something to say you can say it, or at least give me a reason why I should watch an incorrectly titled video.

 

10 hours ago, Deus Voltage said:

With all due respect, that says a lot more about you than the video. I expected better. 

 

Really, someone hasn't got the time too articulate their own argument, just posts a video and that supposedly says something about me?  Don't start a sentence with "with all due respect" if your only going to admonish the person.   As I said above, if someone wants me to watch a video the very least they can do is give a me a reason.  Just posting an incorrectly titled video by itself is not participating int he discussion.

 

EDIT: and just to add to that, It is petty being accused of wishing to remain ignorant (the amusing part is the insinuation that I already am ignorant), due to not wanting to get my info from a youtube video when I choose to get most of my info from peer reviewed journals, Official websites, and verified industry/association statements.

 

3 hours ago, Drak3 said:

The discs were being sold at a loss.

irrelevant and unknown to be true outside of the sting.

[QBtech]

I'm really torn on this one.

On the one hand, if I burned a recovery disc for my mother yes its technically illegal because of ToS but I really wouldnt think microsoft would care and I do not think it would be immoral. 

But then again I do not make it look like a genuine disc nor do I burn thousands. 

 

Regardless of what you think of the law, what he did was breaking it and he was fully aware. A jail sentence seems a bit much though, so does damage of 25$ a disc. I can get a genuine win10 key and iso for less.

 

Adding to that the fact he paid 80k for discs he was planning to sell for 7k?! Thats horrible ROI and makes no business sense. This guy is clearly not stating the full extent of what he had planned with these discs.