Gaming misinformation about Mining?

[CommandMan7]

I just had an interesting thought. 

 

There's a sizable amount of Gamers who openly protest against mining, and with good reason. It's obvious that mining is the biggest cause of the massive increase in GPU prices. I personally mine with Nicehash on my gaming desktop when it's not in use, and because of this I've nearly been able to have my GPU pay for itself. Whenever I mention this on discord or elsewhere however, I get judged and blamed for contributing to the current state of GPU prices. 

 

Most people seem to believe a Crypto-boycott is the best way to get GPU prices back down. Here's why I think that actually makes the problem worse:

 

Mining difficulty is scaled with the amount of miners on the Blockchain, but the block reward remains fixed (for now). If there are fewer people on the Blockchain, it is easier (AND MORE PROFITABLE) to mine. By decreasing the amount of miners on the network, it becomes more profitable to mine, which means that GPU mining will remain profitable for a longer period of time, worsening the GPU shortage. In addition, Gamers are less likely to reinvest earned money back into GPU's for mining, whereas existing miners are far more likely.

 

If Gamers instead all mined as much as possible, mining difficulty would likely skyrocket.

In addition, most money Gamers earn from mining would be taken out of the cycle of "Buy GPU's > mine > sell > Buy GPU's..."

 

I believe the only way to decrease demand of cryptocurrencies (and therefore GPU's) is to increase the supply of compute power on the Blockchain until it is no longer profitable to mine with GPU's.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit 1:

Many people have pointed out that there are many, many cryptocurrencies out there to the point that it would be impractical to inflate them all. While this is true, you don't need to inflate every single one. Like most things, statistically cryptocurrencies follow a Zipfian distribution. What this means is that the market cap of a single cryptocurrency compared to all cryptocurrencies will approximate a fraction equal to 1/rank of cryptocurrency + 1. See the figure below, where bitcoin is approximately 50% (1/2), then Ethereum is approximately 33% (1/3), then Ripple is approximately 25% (1/4), and so on. 

This distribution is almost certainly likely to remain true, although the actual Cryptocurrencies in each rank may change. This means only the top 3 or 4 cryptocurrencies need to be inflated to wipe out the vast majority of market cap of cryptocurrencies.

 

[AugOwnz]

And how do you increase the demand of compute power on the Blockchain for coins that have been here for years? And increasing the supply of it would mean we need more miners, therefore even less GPUs. 

[CommandMan7]

Just now, AugOwnz said:

And how do you increase the demand of compute power on the Blockchain for coins that have been here for years? And increasing the supply of it would mean we need more miners, therefore even less GPUs. 

I'm not saying that we need to buy any more GPU's for this to happen. I'm saying that people using their existing GPU's to increase mining difficulty would decrease the profitability of buying new GPU's to mine.

[GoldenLag]

2 minutes ago, AugOwnz said:

And how do you increase the demand of compute power on the Blockchain for coins that have been here for years? And increasing the supply of it would mean we need more miners, therefore even less GPUs. 

Im no block-chain genius, but since it is a supply and demand thing. The influx of extra miners will inflate the currency, by a bit. At some point mining is nolonger profitable and you are only left with large (very large) miners driving the network, or mining stops and we use a non-mining based blockchain like Ripple (i think it isnt mineable)

[Airdragonz]

It's... Let's just say impractical. There are hundreds of cryptocurrencies out there. To raise the hash rate and difficulty of all of them will take years, and since new currencies keep coming out... Anyhow, not all cryptocurrencies can rely on Asic miners to maintain the currency and therefore there will always have to be GPU miners. 

[done12many2]

1 hour ago, Airdragonz said:

It's... Let's just say impractical. There are hundreds of cryptocurrencies out there. To raise the hash rate and difficulty of all of them will take years, and since new currencies keep coming out... Anyhow, not all cryptocurrencies can rely on Asic miners to maintain the currency and therefore there will always have to be GPU miners. 

 

There's thousands and the rate at which they are growing is growing faster itself.  

[CommandMan7]

2 minutes ago, Airdragonz said:

It's... Let's just say impractical. There are hundreds of cryptocurrencies out there. To raise the hash rate and difficulty of all of them will take years, and since new currencies keep coming out... Anyhow, not all cryptocurrencies can rely on Asic miners to maintain the currency and therefore there will always have to be GPU miners. 

Just now, done12many2 said:

 

There's thousands and the rate at which they are growing is growing faster itself.  

We don't need to increase the difficulty of all Cryptocurrencies, just the major ones. The strategy would be to inflate difficulty on large Cryptocurrencies and ignore the small ones. In the time that it would take for people to switch to another Cryptocurrency, Proof-of-work Cryptocurrencies will likely be obsolete.

 

Just now, huilun02 said:

The only solution is for the mining bubble to burst. And then all miners realize they have done nothing good for the world but to satiate their own greed farming hypothetical currencies that are not backed by anything tangible. I wouldn't mind it at all but not when other people suffer dire consequences.

This is the end goal - what I proposed just accelerates that process.

[Combustible Lemon]

9 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

... a non-mining based blockchain like Ripple (i think it isnt mineable)

 

You can't mine Ripple because it's not open source. the company behind the coin 'produced' a fix number and released some of the coins.

Anyway - the problem is that there is hundreds of coins. if you'll drive, let's say, Ethereum to be non-profitable to mine, the miners will move to another coin. 

[GoldenLag]

Just now, DesertWing said:

 

You can't mine Ripple because it's not open source. the company behind the coin 'produced' a fix number and released some of the coins.

Anyway - the problem is that there is hundreds of coins. if you'll drive Ethereum to be non-profitable to mine, the miners will move to another coin. 

One thing you will notice is that most currencies follow the same path. Kill BTC, BTH, ETH and you would see the market follow them to the grave. Proof of work will be obselete

[CommandMan7]

1 minute ago, DesertWing said:

 

You can't mine Ripple because it's not open source. the company behind the coin 'produced' a fix number and released some of the coins.

Anyway - the problem is that there is hundreds of coins. if you'll drive Ethereum to be non-profitable to mine, the miners will move to another coin. 

Personally I move all my mining rewards to Ripple for this reason. I personally believe Ethereum, Bitcoin, etc, don't have any long term future. Ripple actually has a purpose (Real-world currency conversions by major banks) and isn't mineable. 

 

See above arguments as to why # of cryptocurrencies don't matter. In the meantime I'll add to the OP.

[done12many2]

1 hour ago, CommandMan7 said:

We don't need to increase the difficulty of all Cryptocurrencies, just the major ones. The strategy would be to inflate difficulty on large Cryptocurrencies and ignore the small ones. In the time that it would take for people to switch to another Cryptocurrency, Proof-of-work Cryptocurrencies will likely be obsolete.

 

I think you are underestimating the size of the market and a bit optimistic of the impact of a coordinated saturation.  The difficulty rates are dynamic and the this idea could essentially end up being a even larger waste of electricity in an attempt to annoy miners, because that's all you'd be doing.   Temporarily annoying them.

 

Going back to your original post.  You yourself have been mining long enough to almost pay for your GPU.  Are you okay with aiding in the collapse of crypto now that you've gotten what you've wanted out of it?  Or are you tired of being judged on Discord because you admit to mining yourself?  I'm not exactly sure what your angle is?

 

 

[AlTech]

23 minutes ago, CommandMan7 said:

I'm not saying that we need to buy any more GPU's for this to happen. I'm saying that people using their existing GPU's to increase mining difficulty would decrease the profitability of buying new GPU's to mine.

How did the first crypto craze (2013-2014 ish) come to an end?

[Princess Luna]

The way I see it you're simply trying to justify yourself which is pointless, whether you mine or not that is your problem you bought the hardware you do with it whatever pleases you, if people give you a hard time for doing it just quit bragging about doing it? Nobody really cares if it paid your GPU or not.

 

My brother and I we have very powerful hardware and we don't mine because while the blockchain concept is solid we don't believe in the worth of the coins nor we want to deal with those for our personal reasons.

 

But we couldn't care less whether people is profiting on it or not, actual people profiting hard on it are the speculators buying and selling rather than people mining it, those who are mining it are just getting the left overs of their speculation.

 

Moral of the story is that this exists and you can or not support it, you can or not profit money on it, but the one thing I believe people shouldn't do is get into these pointless online arguments over this, since it won't change any thing.

 

PC Gaming was never meant to be the cheap alternative, if you can't afford a video card of your desire just go consoles? Settle for less? Work more to actually afford it... just don't go QQ'ing on people, the opposite also is true, if you manage to buy a 1080 Ti and it "paid for itself" mining, don't go on Forums bragging about it, just makes people upset/annoyed and really doesn't add any thing to the issue.

[ExplosiveSloths]

If I remember correctly, the whole pricing thing has more to do with DRAM pricing or something.

 

 

[CommandMan7]

7 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

I think you are underestimating the size of the market and a bit optimistic of the impact of a coordinated saturation.  The difficulty rates are dynamic and the this idea could essentially end up being a even larger waste of electricity in an attempt to annoy miners, because that's all you'd be doing.   Temporarily annoying them.

 

Going back to your original post.  You yourself have been mining long enough to almost pay for your GPU.  Are you okay with aiding in the collapse of crypto now that you've gotten what you've wanted out of it?  Or are you tired of being judged on Discord because you admit to mining yourself?  I'm not exactly sure what your angle is?

 

 

Admittedly, I am not considering the feasibility of this solution actually solving the problem directly. It's more of an argument as to why a boycott of mining contributes to higher GPU prices. I also am not considering electricity costs, only GPU prices.

 

My personal goal of being in Cryptocurrency is not money. It's like a hobby, I guess. Currently I have not earned a single USD cent from mining, because as I mentioned earlier, I convert my earnings into Ripple, a non-minable coin. I personally support the collapse of all Proof-of-work Cryptocurrencies, but I believe Cryptocurrency as a concept will change the world once the extremely wasteful and inefficient Proof-of-work Cryptocurrencies are abandoned. 

 

The contreversy surrounding Cryptocurrencies caused me to think about my actions and look for solutions, and this is where I have ended up.

 

 

[AlTech]

Quote

PC Gaming was never meant to be the cheap alternative,

It was never meant to be outrageously expensive either. Miners combined with a sudden large demand for GPUs in China and also more expensive VRAM collectively are causing PC gaming to become ridiculously expensive.

Quote

Settle for less? Work more to actually afford it...

You're missing the problem of how the current prices aren't natural. There is a limited supply of GPUs and a ridiculously high demand. They aren't supposed to be this high. And you're making it sound like gamers are the bad guys here. The miners are the bad guys. The gamers are the good guys.

 

[CommandMan7]

8 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

The way I see it you're simply trying to justify yourself which is pointless, whether you mine or not that is your problem you bought the hardware you do with it whatever pleases you, if people give you a hard time for doing it just quit bragging about doing it? Nobody really cares if it paid your GPU or not.

 

My brother and I we have very powerful hardware and we don't mine because while the blockchain concept is solid we don't believe in the worth of the coins nor we want to deal with those for our personal reasons.

 

But we couldn't care less whether people is profiting on it or not, actual people profiting hard on it are the speculators buying and selling rather than people mining it, those who are mining it are just getting the left overs of their speculation.

 

Moral of the story is that this exists and you can or not support it, you can or not profit money on it, but the one thing I believe people shouldn't do is get into these pointless online arguments over this, since it won't change any thing.

 

PC Gaming was never meant to be the cheap alternative, if you can't afford a video card of your desire just go consoles? Settle for less? Work more to actually afford it... just don't go QQ'ing on people, the opposite also is true, if you manage to buy a 1080 Ti and it "paid for itself" mining, don't go on Forums bragging about it, just makes people upset/annoyed and really doesn't add any thing to the issue.

Not trying to justify myself. Not bragging. This is my current setup:

Almost all my hardware is used or an OEM part.

 

What originally motivated me to make this post was to address what I see as misinformation in the gaming community, but it turned into a discussion on how to potentially speed up the collapse of the crypto bubble. The original title doesn't really reflect that, so i'll change it if I can.

[Princess Luna]

23 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

The miners are the bad guys. The gamers are the good guys.

There are no good and bad in this and thinking like this is simply picking a side to defend without looking at the bigger picture.

 

23 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

You're missing the problem of how the current prices aren't natural. There is a limited supply of GPUs and a ridiculously

I'm not missing any thing, the real problem here is simply we have a higher demand than we can supply, the roots of the demand does not matter as nobody should be blamed for using something they rightfully bought to non-criminal activities.

 

23 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

It was never meant to be outrageously expensive either. Miners combined with a sudden large demand for GPUs in China and also more expensive VRAM collectively are causing PC gaming to become ridiculously expensive.

It isn't, prices are what I'd consider realistic specially to give it a break on our consumerism that is beyond senseful, tons of hardware gets wasted constantly giving meaningful impacts to the natural resources. Gaming also is still just a luxury, mining as much as immoral to the eyes of most is a source of income that has assisted a lot of people build their lives.

 

23 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

So gamers should be punished because of miners and their desire to make a quick buck? lmfao.

Sure write down a lmfao to increase your chances to sound right by trying to ridicule other people's concepts while keeping yourself as simplistic as possible on arguments.

 

Nobody is being punished, people mining are doing something they have the right to do as much as gamers have the right to waste natural resources with something of entertainment purpose only. I don't understand what is it with people like you who thinks is better in any way simply because you can't accept a Computer can(and should) do more than just play video games.

 

20 minutes ago, CommandMan7 said:

What originally motivated me to make this post was to address what I see as misinformation in the gaming community, but it turned into a discussion on how to potentially speed up the collapse of the crypto bubble. The original title doesn't really reflect that, so i'll change it if I can.

My point is that this argue as a whole is pointless, as you just see above there are people locked in the mindset that miners are evil, when they aren't, they blame people doing something perfectly legal with hardware they afforded themselves.

 

I'm not saying that I like seeing people having a rougher time putting their gaming/personal desktops together due to more expensive prices than a few years ago however I find it an hypocrisy paint the devil on these people as we could have people who need hardware for content creation blaming gamers for the prices just as much it is a never ending circle of pointing the finger at someone.

 

Also like every internet argue, opinions will clash against one another, nobody will really consider the other side as all they want is to get those sweet reputation counts whilst attacking others with the same old same old arguments like a broken record.

 

Uhh noo uhh nooo I can't buy a 1080 Ti for that eye candy at 4k because families are making a living out of mining they must burn in hell for that!

 

Like seriously, I'll just go back to what I said originally this whole thing is pointless and us arguing here will result in no difference whatsoever on the market as is, so why bother? do your thing and move on, myself am not further replying to this thread.

[done12many2]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

It was never meant to be outrageously expensive either. Miners combined with a sudden large demand for GPUs in China and also more expensive VRAM collectively are causing PC gaming to become ridiculously expensive.

So gamers should be punished because of miners and their desire to make a quick buck? lmfao.

You're missing the problem of how the current prices aren't natural. There is a limited supply of GPUs and a ridiculously high demand. They aren't supposed to be this high. And you're making it sound like gamers are the bad guys here. The miners are the bad guys. The gamers are the good guys.

 

 

Wow.

[CommandMan7]

2 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

There are no good and bad in this and thinking like this is simply picking a side to defend without looking at the bigger picture.

 

I'm not missing any thing, the real problem here is simply we have a higher demand than we can supply, the roots of the demand does not matter as nobody should be blamed for using something they rightfully bought to non-criminal activities.

 

It isn't, prices are what I'd consider realistic specially to give it a break on our consumerism that is beyond senseful, tons of hardware gets wasted constantly giving meaningful impacts to the natural resources. Gaming also is still just a luxury, mining as much as immoral to the eyes of most is a source of income that has assisted a lot of people build their lives.

 

Sure write down a lmfao to increase your chances to sound right by trying to ridicule other people's concepts while keeping yourself as simplistic as possible on arguments.

 

Nobody is being punished, people mining are doing something they have the right to do as much as gamers have the right to waste natural resources with something of entertainment purpose only. I don't understand what is it with people like you who thinks is better in any way simply because you can't accept a Computer can(and should) do more than just play video games.

 

My point is that this argue as a whole is pointless, as you just see above there are people locked in the mindset that miners are evil, when they aren't, they blame people doing something perfectly legal with hardware they afforded themselves.

 

I'm not saying that I like seeing people having a rougher time putting their gaming/personal desktops together due to more expensive prices than a few years ago however I find it an hypocrisy paint the devil on these people.

 

Also like every internet argue, opinions will clash against one another, nobody will really consider the other side as all they want is to get those sweet reputation accounts whilst attacking others with the same old same old arguments like a broken record.

 

Uhh noo uhh nooo I can't buy a 1080 Ti for that eye candy at 4k because families are making a living out of mining they must burn in hell for that!

 

Like seriously, I'll just go back to what I said originally this whole thing is pointless and us arguing here will result in no difference whatsoever on the market as is, so why bother? do your thing and move on, myself am not further replying to this thread.

We were having a civilized discussion here until you showed up and started arguing as to why arguing is pointless. You're not contributing to this discussion except for stirring people up. You do realize you're the very person you're talking about when you say "nobody will really consider the other side as all they want is to get those sweet reputation accounts whilst attacking others with the same old same old arguments", right?

 

Why are you so passionately attacking others for deciding to have a discussion about mining and gaming when you yourself say it doesn't matter?

 

If you aren't going to contribute to the original discussion you should leave. You haven't presented any arguments for or against what was proposed in the OP. All you've done is criticize others for having a "pointless" discussion.

[AlTech]

 

1 minute ago, Princess Cadence said:

Gaming also is still just a luxury, mining as much as immoral to the eyes of most is a source of income that has assisted a lot of people build their lives.

I'd say mining is more of a luxury than gaming is.

1 minute ago, Princess Cadence said:

Sure write down a lmfao to increase your chances to sound right by trying to ridicule other people's concepts while keeping yourself as simplistic as possible on arguments.

 

Nobody is being punished

The people who want to game on good graphics cards are being punished because they are unable to buy the products they want for a reasonable price.

1 minute ago, Princess Cadence said:

Uhh noo uhh nooo I can't buy a 1080 Ti for that eye candy at 4k because families are making a living out of mining they must burn in hell for that!

I don't know anybody who mines crypto for a living. The only people I know who mine crypto or own crypto currency are kids or teenagers spending money on their expensive hobby which is crypto.

[done12many2]

1 hour ago, AluminiumTech said:

I'd say mining is more of a luxury than gaming is.

The people who want to game on good graphics cards are being punished because they are unable to buy the products they want for a reasonable price.

I don't know anybody who mines crypto for a living. The only people I know who mine crypto or own crypto currency are kids or teenagers spending money on their expensive hobby which is crypto.

 

I mine as supplemental income to my retirement check.  There are tons of use doing the same thing.  

While you are partially correct about mining being a hobby, for me it's a bit more than that.   Trust me when I say that I am VERY far from being a teenager who only pays for his "expensive hobby".

 

Judging by your comments, I think you choose to see what you want, which is perfectly fine.  I am definitely surprised by your one-sided approach to this discussion, hence my previous "wow".

 

I game too and like @Princess Cadence is saying, there's nothing wrong with me doing as I please with my hardware.

[GoldenLag]

Lets establish something before we continue. Miners are peopl, just like you, like anyone on the street, just like anyone. Done, miners are just as evil as you and me and as good as you and me

 

When it comes to dripping GPU prices. The only thing i can come up with is to mine the shit of currencies till they are "hyper inflated" and force the market to adopt Ripple or a non "proof-of-work" coin

[asus killer]

not an expert here, still the gpus aren't used just for mining are they? they are also used to track transactions, so the OP is misleading the conversation.

Even if there were no more mining to do on any coin (that's the other problem i have with this, there seems to surface coins like crazy, catcoin and whatever, every day nonstop someone wants to get rich quick by releasing a new currency) then you had the transactions, that will only get worst and worst if the adoption of cryptocurrencies gets more mature, imagine every single little transaction in the world based on cryptocoins (going to the supermarket to buy toilet paper), there would be no electricity in the world to compute them all.

 

as to the edited part it fails to account if bitcoin fails, if it's no longer the top of the technology, if it crashes for some reason, there is a space to be occupied for another coins and so on. The actual point this days of cypto is that with every new coin there are advances and in fact the old coins less advanced are dommed to be replaced, it's the all premisse of crytpo. So no, the OP explanation makes no sense to me.

[done12many2]

1 hour ago, CommandMan7 said:

We were having a civilized discussion here until you showed up and started arguing as to why arguing is pointless. You're not contributing to this discussion except for stirring people up. You do realize you're the very person you're talking about when you say "nobody will really consider the other side as all they want is to get those sweet reputation accounts whilst attacking others with the same old same old arguments", right?

 

Why are you so passionately attacking others for deciding to have a discussion about mining and gaming when you yourself say it doesn't matter?

 

If you aren't going to contribute to the original discussion you should leave. You haven't presented any arguments for or against what was proposed in the OP. All you've done is criticize others for having a "pointless" discussion.

 

Try not to crawl completely under the protection of the victim blanket yet.   You are no different than anyone currently mining alternate currencies that your thread sets out to target simply because that's the part of the market that you are okay with attacking.  Notice, you've modified your position into a safer stance since creating this thread.

 

If you weren't so biased, you would have noticed that @Princess Cadence's response was to @AluminiumTech's comment in which he called miners "bad guys" and gamers "good guys".  Amazing how you didn't notice that tid bit of "passionate attacking", but then again, I get it.  It supports your very confused cause.