Microsoft is building a new version of Windows 10 that "strips out legacy components"

[GoodBytes]

As the article explains, it is aimed for small form factor convertible devices. In other words: "Surface phone/mini-tablet". A device that cannot ideally operate Win32 programs due to:

• Most Win32 programs are not considering battery life, as they assume desktop computers or mobile device with large batteries (old way of thinking in program design)
• Most Win32 program aren't high DPI aware, still
• Most Win32 programs are not touch friendly
• Most Win32 programs don't scale to phone window size (try, you'll see that it will either block before you can size it properly with a minimum size, or element will disappear)
• Many Win32 programs don't have scalable window.
• Many Win32 has pop-up floating panels (example: Paint.NET) How do you handle that in a phone or mini tablet with touch control?

All I see them doing is making Win32 as a component like the rest, which only enables it self when the phone is in tablet mode (if the tablet is large enough) or dock to a large display and keyboard and mouse. I mean, MS has been making everything in Windows 10 as components, so it would be the logical path.

[Kherm]

3 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Windows S sure, but obviously they can't replace real windows with this any more than an iphone can replace a pro workstation with multiple quadros for the kind of work people do on those.

Yeah I agree. One day, there will just be 3 versions of Windows: Windows (Store apps only and win32 emulation on x86 and ARM) Windows Pro (Apps from anywhere, native win32 on x86 and emulation on ARM) and Windows Server. 

[GoodBytes]

17 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

What was the point of releasing windows 10 S then?

why didn't they just wait?

You CAN run Win32 programs under Windows 10 S. It just needs to come from the Store. It is just a more secure Windows, but blocking everything that isn't coming from the Store. So virus, malware and ransomware can't run on the system. And every app acquired from the Store run in a sandbox environment. Making it very difficult for a malware maker to slip an malware app to the store, and successfully infect people. I am not saying that they can't (I mean it is a constant issue on Android, and can be really bad), so eventually I expect it, but it is so much harder than before. Windows 10 S is great for those who prefer less apps access, but ensure reliability (no downtime from an infection).

[Doobeedoo]

They really need to have less versions though. Get rid of 32bit one as well.

[GoodBytes]

4 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

They really need to have less versions though. Get rid of 32bit one as well.

Thanks to Intel, and some manufacture that refuse to update their drivers, and some people wanting 16-bit app DOS support, still today (mostly companies with legacy custom software that they don't want or can't run under DOS emulator), that won't happen any time soon.

[yian88]

This is as negative as it gets, UWP is a disaster that should be abolished, win32 is old true but is the only somewhat free development model for windows, and the last.

Ive said this many times Windows has no future, windows with UWP is just a Microshit pipedream that i hope people will reject, so we can move on to linux.

As soon as 2020 hits there will be a massive dilemma for people who care wth is going on with their machine, move to linux or stay on outdated W7? windows 10 is absolutely disgusting, aside from the fact that it never works properly, the profiling of the user and spyware is out of control these days, wouldnt wanna touch such a machine again.

[GoodBytes]

18 minutes ago, yian88 said:

This is as negative as it gets, UWP is a disaster that should be abolished, win32 is old true but is the only somewhat free development model for windows, and the last.

How is UWP a disaster?

 

Quote

Ive said this many times Windows has no future, windows with UWP is just a Microshit pipedream that i hope people will reject, so we can move on to linux.

How UWP not attracting devs, relate to people moving to a Linux based OS?

 

Quote

As soon as 2020 hits there will be a massive dilemma for people who care wth is going on with their machine, move to linux or stay on outdated W7?

Maybe you.. but Windows 10 adoption rate is increasing.

 

Quote

windows 10 is absolutely disgusting, aside from the fact that it never works properly, the profiling of the user and spyware is out of control these days, wouldnt wanna touch such a machine again.

Works fine for million of people from what I can see.

What spyware?

 

As for profiling users, I guess you mean Cortana and Edge... Well.. Google is not free, Android is not free, Chrome is not free. People want food on the table, and companies and its investors and shareholder wants justification to make it (profit). All I am saying, is that nothing is free... heck Firefox is not free (default to a search engine, and that one tracks you, to get funds as they don't get enough from donations)

[porina]

 

40 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

All I see them doing is making Win32 as a component like the rest, which only enables it self when the phone is in tablet mode (if the tablet is large enough) or dock to a large display and keyboard and mouse. I mean, MS has been making everything in Windows 10 as components, so it would be the logical path.

Is it Windows or not? I guess my gripe is, I consider Windows to be first and foremost the desktop/laptop OS (with nod to server versions existing). It should be primarily optimised for keyboard/mouse interface, with strictly optional touchscreen or other interfaces, and able to natively run any Win32/64 application without hindrance - I'd go further and say they should push for 32-bit only systems to be depreciated and killed off sooner rather than later.

 

I'm not against MS having yet another failed attempt at a mobile device OS, I just wish they stop calling it Windows. All that does is cause confusion and weaken their core product.

[sazrocks]

5 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

As for profiling users, I guess you mean Cortana and Edge... Well.. Google is not free, Android is not free, Chrome is not free. People want food on the table, and companies and its investors and shareholder wants justification to make it (profit). All I am saying, is that nothing is free... heck Firefox is not free (default to a search engine, and that one tracks you, to get funds as they don't get enough from donations)

Except all of those are downloadable for free. Windows 10 costs ~$100. Big difference.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

You CAN run Win32 programs under Windows 10 S

From what I understand, this version would not run those programs.

I mean, the news is that this version will strip out all the "legacy components and features". It will run win32 programs using remote virtualization (i.e cancer).

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

It is just a more secure Windows

I would call it a more locked down and limited Windows, rather than secure. Sure it might be more secure too, but saying that it's a "more secure Windows" is like saying my pocket calculator is a "more secure type of PC".

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

I am not saying that they can't (I mean it is a constant issue on Android, and can be really bad), so eventually I expect it, but it is so much harder than before.

It has already happened on the Microsoft store too. If we start counting all the scam apps as malware then it is a massive problem on the Microsoft store already.

 

 

22 minutes ago, sazrocks said:

Except all of those are downloadable for free. Windows 10 costs ~$100. Big difference.

Not to mention he compares a free browser which has Google as the default search engine, to an OS which costs 100+ dollars, is full of ads and harvests a bunch of user data.

Quite the big difference.

[jagdtigger]

59 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Google is not free, Android is not free, Chrome is not free.

Fixed it for you, meanwhile you have to shell out 100$ for win10.

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

How UWP not attracting devs

Last time i checked both devs and users pretty much ignoring it...

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Maybe you.. but Windows 10 adoption rate is increasing.

Because users cant buy any real OS beside that junk?

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

What spyware?

Their blatant data collection maybe that cant be blocked by software? (Its not up for debate, it collects data even against users will so it is a spyware.)

[GoodBytes]

2 hours ago, porina said:

 

Is it Windows or not? I guess my gripe is, I consider Windows to be first and foremost the desktop/laptop OS (with nod to server versions existing). It should be primarily optimised for keyboard/mouse interface, with strictly optional touchscreen or other interfaces, and able to natively run any Win32/64 application without hindrance - I'd go further and say they should push for 32-bit only systems to be depreciated and killed off sooner rather than later.

 

I'm not against MS having yet another failed attempt at a mobile device OS, I just wish they stop calling it Windows. All that does is cause confusion and weaken their core product.

You are not going to run Win32 programs in any case on such device. Imagine using Steam on your phone. Heck remote desktop to your home PC from your phone. Sure it works... for like 5min, then you'll through the phone out of the window or start a UWP app and maximize it.

 

MS tried to have "desktop like-experience on a phone"

 

You need the pen to navigate through the tightly menu items... imagine Win32 programs, which are nearly all going to be like this.

Apple understood that you need large icons, large text, good display to make a phone that doesn't need a pen. You can't take a GUI for desktops PCs and put it into a small form factor.

 

I don't see users confused between Windows 10 and Windows 10 IoT, or Windows 10 S. And people were not confused with Windows RT and Windows 8.

 

What I am going to say and we can agree on, is that they should stop calling Windows on things that doesn't have the concept of windows (Windows mobile OSs), but that is gone.

 

[GoodBytes]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

From what I understand, this version would not run those programs.

I am talking about Windows 10 S, not project name Polaris

 

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I mean, the news is that this version will strip out all the "legacy components and features". It will run win32 programs using remote virtualization (i.e cancer).

That is the assumption of the journalist. Let's wait for the OS to be released (let alone a device), and we will see.

 

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I would call it a more locked down and limited Windows, rather than secure. Sure it might be more secure too, but saying that it's a "more secure Windows" is like saying my pocket calculator is a "more secure type of PC".

Well it is.

 

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Not to mention he compares a free browser which has Google as the default search engine, to an OS which costs 100+ dollars, is full of ads and harvests a bunch of user data.

Quite the big difference.

Edge is a free software included in Windows 10. Don't want it? Don't use it

[captain_to_fire]

If only UWP apps are as good as their iOS/Android counterparts . UWP Netflix is a disaster as it takes forever to play a 1080p video you might as well just used Edge. UWP LastPass UI is awful looking as it resembles a UI for Windows 8 system charms that it's better to use the Edge/Chrome extension. Not to mention there's no UWP Spotify just yet and when I tried it with a touchscreen PC, scrolling alone was iffy and where is the iTunes for the Windows Store that Terry Myerson promised last year?

[GoodBytes]

38 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

Not to mention there's no UWP Spotify just yet and when I tried it with a touchscreen PC, scrolling alone was iffy and where is the iTunes for the Windows Store that Terry Myerson promised last year?

I agree. I wish MS would make a deal with Spotify so that Groove Music can use Spotify APIs. So that it becomes a Spotify UWP app, basically. I mean a lot of money and energy by developers was put into Groove Music music streaming service, and just as it was about to start to be really good, and have a set of feature that Spotify doesn't have... (Filter New releases by genre (come on Spotify!), something it had since day 1), they kill the service. With advertisement, Family plan, and a focus on the Android and iOS app. Groove could have been a good competitor. Oh well.

 

iTunes in the Store was delayed. Apple said:

Quote

We have been working with Microsoft to deliver the full iTunes experience to our customers and we need a little more time to get it right

This was on Dec 15.

[Drak3]

42 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

Windows 8 system charms

I miss those so god damn much.

[captain_to_fire]

8 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I agree. I wish MS would make a deal with Spotify so that Groove Music can use Spotify APIs. So that it becomes a Spotify UWP app, basically. I mean a lot of money and energy by developers was put into Groove Music music streaming service, and just as it was about to start to be really good, and have a set of feature that Spotify doesn't have... (Filter New releases by genre (come on Spotify!), something it had since day 1), they kill the service. With advertisement, Family plan, and a focus on the Android and iOS app. Groove could have been a good competitor. Oh well.

I don't think Microsoft advertised Groove (Xbox Music back then) well enough to compete with iTunes, Spotify, Amazon Prime Music and Google Play Music. And even back when it's still active, they sell songs more expensive than iTunes. Microsoft would sell a single track for $1.29 whereas iTunes would sell the same track for only $0.99. Another problem to Groove music subscription why it failed is the lack of coverage compared to their competitors. I think for the most part Groove Music is only available to North America.

 

4 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

I miss those so god damn much.

Ugh! I'm glad those are gone. Just imagine how many steps would it take to change system brightness: Start screen>type control panel>System and Security>Power Options>brightness slider. That's five freaking steps. How about shutting down a Windows 8 PC? Start Screen>Settings Charm>Power>Shut Down. Don't even get me started on the share charm that doesn't work on the desktop.

[porina]

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

You are not going to run Win32 programs in any case on such device.

I was looking at it from the other direction. I don't want "Windows" on my phone (or other small form factor device).

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

And people were not confused with Windows RT and Windows 8.

People also didn't buy Windows RT devices.

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

What I am going to say and we can agree on, is that they should stop calling Windows on things that doesn't have the concept of windows (Windows mobile OSs), but that is gone.

An yet MS keep trying... I wish they will just admit they repeatedly failed, and get back to doing great desktop before they lose that too.

[yian88]

12 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

How is UWP a disaster?

 

How UWP not attracting devs, relate to people moving to a Linux based OS?

 

Maybe you.. but Windows 10 adoption rate is increasing.

 

Works fine for million of people from what I can see.

What spyware?

 

As for profiling users, I guess you mean Cortana and Edge... Well.. Google is not free, Android is not free, Chrome is not free. People want food on the table, and companies and its investors and shareholder wants justification to make it (profit). All I am saying, is that nothing is free... heck Firefox is not free (default to a search engine, and that one tracks you, to get funds as they don't get enough from donations)

UWP is unstable crap, closed software, cant make apps without distributing trough the ms store or using different programming languages other than microsofts msvc/C#/.net.

Dont even compare to google, you have a lot more freedom on android.

 

UWP isnt attracting devs, good devs, there isnt a single good app in the store than i can name and im not talking about netflix like stuff, all important apps like discord, wire, telegram, all the browsers dont even have uwp client and good that they dont. Anything put on UWP is a half baked joke because its not a serious platform and nobody is going to retrain staff to program in ms specific languages/closed frameworks. If windows pushes UWP only which is unnacceptable the only solution is linux, altough not ideal.

 

W10 adoption is increasing, ok, people dont know what they are getting into, what else is new, just like twitter does profiling and can mess with your data so does microsoft but even worse they have access to everything you say or do and all your acc's and passwords, you can deny all you want, they have everything unless windows goes free open source like linux period, every single part of it. Them releasing what data they collect is a joke really, good enough to fool more people into W10, very clever id say.

 

I dont really care about peoples food on the table when my privacy is their profit. Not gonna happen. And implying firefox lives from donations is naive, firefox is a money making corporation, donations are just for fools who didnt dig to see whats behind all of it.

 

Microsoft always wanted something that apple and then google managed to achieve, locking down the desktop platform and promoting only MS software on it, all while stealing all your data, profiling you fully, and controlling what you do, by giving you ads, installing apps you dont want, and making Win Defender delete stuff from your PC by automatically scanning what they shouldnt, and the regular keylogging, SS of your screen activities and more, its all out there no point enumerating.

 

Im not a tinfoil hat ive done enough digging to see know. My whole point is not to compare to google or apple and say "oh they do the same so its ok", its not ok and im just as vocal against them i just dont use any apple crap, and android is a lot more permisive, doesnt install unwanted apps and feeds me ads and its NOT broken like UWP, its has millions of high quality apps and so forth, that doesnt mean google is a saint all of a sudden, android wasnt a great platform then turned to crap like W10, android has only improved with time.

I care the most about the desktop platform, most production/quality apps are on windows and microsoft is ruining it day by day, piece by piece.

 

Anyway you are a proven MS promoter there isnt much to say to you, maybe others care that read this otherwise its pointless.

 

For years i have to use a crippled windows by using original iso + integrated updates,excluding the crap ones, with auto update disabled so i dont get any unwanted spyware on win7. Instead of the linux model where i dont get any crap and can be up to date daily rolling release or periodically like windows, and i have yet to worry than an update breaks my install.

 

[Maticks]

This is the best news ever, windows 64 bit has been out for at least 8 years.. there is no excuse to leave legacy in.

Legacy is responsible for memory leaks and security issues along with Virus problems.

 

Windows 10 Professional or Home should have no need for 32 bit programs, Business could buy a Business version i am sure Microsoft will allow to run 32 bit.

There is always Virtual Machines to run old programs in an isolated environment, is this really an issue now in 2018 given we can Visualize on bare metal these days. 

[jagdtigger]

1 minute ago, Maticks said:

This is the best news ever, windows 64 bit has been out for at least 8 years.. there is no excuse to leave legacy in.

Legacy is responsible for memory leaks and security issues along with Virus problems.

 

Windows 10 Professional or Home should have no need for 32 bit programs, Business could buy a Business version i am sure Microsoft will allow to run 32 bit.

There is always Virtual Machines to run old programs in an isolated environment, is this really an issue now in 2018 given we can Visualize on bare metal these days. 

Do you even think before you start writing? Disabling 32 bit would break way too many things, including stuff that wont be rewritten. Security flaws wont come from 32 bit, but from errors in the program itself. And good luck running a game in a virtual machine...

[Maticks]

13 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Do you even think before you start writing? Disabling 32 bit would break way too many things, including stuff that wont be rewritten. Security flaws wont come from 32 bit, but from errors in the program itself. And good luck running a game in a virtual machine...

As i said i am sure Microsoft will maintain a different build for 32 bit Legacy.

[Dabombinable]

MS clearly doesn't realise that the majority of the world...doesn't have good enough internet access to remotely virtualise programs.

[RagnarokDel]

There's nothing really wrong with UWP, what is wrong is to force people to use the windows store. Call me crazy but maybe that'd force Valve to actually upgrade the steam client instead of using a fucking app built around using a browser. Shit, even Ubisoft has a more modern app.

[LAwLz]

10 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I am talking about Windows 10 S, not project name Polaris

Well this thread is about "Polaris", and someone wondering why they didn't just release Polaris first and skipped 10S. According to the article 10S will be replaced.

If you were strictly talking about 10S then your post went on a tangent about something completely unrelated.

 

10 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

That is the assumption of the journalist. Let's wait for the OS to be released (let alone a device), and we will see.

Why not discuss it based on the article? I mean, talking about the benefits/drawbacks/implications of rumors is a big part of this forum. If someone posts a thread about leaked info regarding Ice Lake are you going to go "please only talk about Coffee Lake. Wait until an Ice Lake processor is released before discussing it!"? Of course not. If a rumor comes out that Ice Lake will, let's say have 8 cores then I think it is perfect acceptable to discuss what implications that will have. Just like that is acceptable, I think it is acceptable to talk about this rumored Polaris and the implications of that.

 

10 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Edge is a free software included in Windows 10. Don't want it? Don't use it

Are you making confusing posts on purpose? Here is how the conversation went:

Someone: It's disgusting how Windows 10 spies on its users.

You: Nothing is free, not even Firefox.

Me: There is a very big difference between how Windows 10 isn't free, and how Firefox "isn't free".

You: So just use Edge!

 

Your response does not make any sense whatsoever. I was not saying Edge cost money. What I was saying is that your post which tries to sweep Firefox under the same blanket statement as Windows 10 is extremely misleading. Firefox is not at all on the same level as Windows 10. Hell, there is a massive difference between Edge and Firefox too.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

MS clearly doesn't realise that the majority of the world...doesn't have good enough internet access to remotely virtualise programs.

My guess is that their plan is for it to be used at companies with the virtualization sever on premise, like Citrix.