7740X's overclockabilty reviewed

[PCGuy_5960]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

Potential, REALISTIC, use cases for the 7640X.

Validation/Diagnostics.

Idiocy tester.

And overclocking it till it blows up

[cj09beira]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

@done12many2@Sauron@leadeater@MageTank

 

Potential use cases for the 7740X:

Validation/diagnostics. With Xeon and X299 apparently not being compatible, there needs to be an option to system builders (and enthusiasts that build many systems).

Benchmarking on a unified platform. This is something YouTubers like JayzTwoCents would appreciate, as now they don't have to have a test bench for X99/299 AND Z170/270, and they swap CPUs on them fairly regularly.

Realistic entry level bid for those that can't afford the supposed $380 or so 7800X?

Toy for Done12many2?

 

Potential, REALISTIC, use cases for the 7640X.

Validation/Diagnostics.

Idiocy tester.

Same IPC, damn near the same chip. 100MHz improvement if OP's article used a completely average 7740X.

if skylake x has better ipc than kabylake on x299 (due to the new cache), and next year/year after that we will have a new kabylake x gen which will have better ipc than kabylake

[Drak3]

Just now, cj09beira said:

if skylake x has better ipc than kabylake on x299 (due to the new cache), and next year/year after that we will have a new kabylake x gen which will have better ipc than kabylake

Chances are extremely high, no KabyX next year. It'll likely be Cannon/Coffee, which ever stupid ass codename is the desktop one, and the X version of that, releasing.

 

[done12many2]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

Toy for Done12many2?

 

... and a lot of my buddies.  OCN is filled with guys who will purchase a 7740X as a second chip.  When those single core benchmarks pop up, they'll swap CPUs, within the same platform and march on.

 

While I agree there isn't a large need for the chip, I completely disagree that it's useless.  It serves as yet another option for use on a single platform.  I for one am happy that Intel provided me with the choice.  

[cj09beira]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Chances are extremely high, no KabyX next year. It'll likely be Cannon/Coffee, which ever stupid ass codename is the desktop one, and the X version of that, releasing.

 

only if intel changes its schedule of having the consumer version first and they jump a gen for hedt

[MageTank]

20 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

@done12many2@Sauron@leadeater@MageTank

 

Potential use cases for the 7740X:

Validation/diagnostics. With Xeon and X299 apparently not being compatible, there needs to be an option to system builders (and enthusiasts that build many systems).

Benchmarking on a unified platform. This is something YouTubers like JayzTwoCents would appreciate, as now they don't have to have a test bench for X99/299 AND Z170/270, and they swap CPUs on them fairly regularly.

Realistic entry level bid for those that can't afford the supposed $380 or so 7800X?

Toy for Done12many2?

 

Potential, REALISTIC, use cases for the 7640X.

Validation/Diagnostics.

Idiocy tester.

Same IPC, damn near the same chip. 100MHz improvement if OP's article used a completely average 7740X.

Why are you always mentioning me, just to repeat what I've already said to myself? 

2 hours ago, MageTank said:

Could say the same about the super cheap Xeon's though. X99 had extremely cheap Xeons you could buy for $200ish (even cheaper if you bought used on Ebay) to use as stop-gaps or diagnostic backups. If your intent is to use the quad cores for long term on X299, it makes little sense given it's still artificially limited to dual channel and only a fraction of the PCIe lanes. We've even heard that certain M.2 ports won't even work on these CPU's from some board partners depending on how they are wired.

 

I agree with the questioning of these CPU's existence, because frankly, they don't need to exist. Had they kept them quad channel, and given them a static PCIe count throughout the entire stack, I'd at least see it's benefit for people that needed lanes/raw bandwidth, and not the processing power to go with it, but as it stands, it's basically an extension of the consumer platform, glued on to the enthusiast one. Just lacks every "enthusiast" feature that comes with it.

I am aware of the need for cheaper CPU's on the higher end platforms. With X99, we had that in the form of Xeons. However, X299 did away with that, and are offering even more expensive CPU's to use for "diagnostic purposes" instead of letting us use cheapo OEM Xeons that can be had for as little as $80 on Ebay. 

 

If they wanted a unified platform similar to AMD's, they should have went all in. Stop with this self-cannibalization and intentional artificial limiting of your own products, and simply give people everything the platform has to offer, across your entire CPU product stack. Yes, the argument can be made that quad channel memory on a quad core processor is silly, as you will likely run out of processing power long before bandwidth becomes a concern, but it makes it even more difficult on board manufacturers to come up with a context switch to change between dual/quad simply because you are using a different CPU. I simply don't buy the idea that Intel did this to help consumers embrace the enthusiast platform. If that were the case, they wouldn't be locking out every enthusiast feature for using one of these CPU's. Will it still sell? Yes, simply because people will choose the higher numbers without knowing any better. A 7740 is a larger number than 7700, and x299 is larger than z270. That alone means it's automatically better, right? Right.

 

EDIT: Great drinking game idea. Take a shot for each time I say "simply" in this post.

[Drak3]

8 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

... and a lot of my buddies.  OCN is filled with guys who will purchase a 7740X as a second chip.  When those single core benchmarks pop up, they'll swap CPUs, within the same platform and march on.

 

While I agree there isn't a large need for the chip, I completely disagree that it's useless.  It serves as yet another option for use on a single platform.  I for one am happy that Intel provided me with the choice.  

Personally, I only see the 7740X being good for validation, and a few benchers that still want to test a Z270 chip without having a separate bed for it.

If SLX hexacores OC in the same manner as HWE did, in relation to the quadcores, and if SLX is on the same refinements as KL, then I see the 7800X being less than 50MHz behind the 7700K. Maybe 150MHz behind the 7740X, if OP's article is on an average chip, and not a binned one.

6 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

only if intel changes its schedule of having the consumer version first and they jump a gen for hedt

KLX is signalling that exactly. There was no IPC increase between Sky and Kaby, and if Intel maintains the reworked cache structure moving forward, no increase with SLX and any potential KLX2. Hell, if it weren't for the 7740X and 7640X, there wouldn't be any reason to not skip the SLX codename.

 

2 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Why are you always mentioning me, just to repeat what I've already said to myself? 

Either:

A) You'll elaborate on the point without me asking you to, and you're better at explaining some things than me

B) First sentence of the second paragraph of self quote. There is some reason for them to exist, even if it's somewhat stupid. Those are, IMO, the key reasons for this to exist.

5 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Stop with this self-cannibalization and intentional artificial limiting of your own products

I don't see how this is going to be self-cannibalizing if using cheaper Xeons on X99 for the same purpose wasn't. Also, we don't know if the limitations on KLX is artificial or not. To me, the 7740X is just a later batch 7700K on a different socket, not a new, and separate chip.

 

7 minutes ago, MageTank said:

If they wanted a unified platform similar to AMD's

For the most part, I think they still don't. The 7640X, to me, is only good for validation. The 7740X, a niche use case CPU that relatively few people would use in relation to the 7700K, or the 8700K when that comes out. Other than that, Intel doesn't have much reason to unify platforms, just port over the low end parts of the enthusiast to the mainstream with each generation.

AMD's platform is no longer a unified one. There's the 'mainstream' that goes up to 8 cores, dual channel memory, and 24 PCIe lanes, and then the enthusiast that starts at 10 or 12 cores,  goes up to 16, quad channel, and 64 PCIe lanes.

[done12many2]

14 minutes ago, MageTank said:

I simply don't buy the idea that Intel did this to help consumers embrace the enthusiast platform. If that were the case, they wouldn't be locking out every enthusiast feature for using one of these CPU's.

 

To be fair, the 7700k didn't natively support the features considered by most as being "locked out".  They simply resocketed a chip and disabled the iGPU, which would have been useless on the new platform.

 

Quote

Will it still sell? Yes, simply because people will choose the higher numbers without knowing any better. A 7740 is a larger number than 7700, and x299 is larger than z270. That alone means it's automatically better, right? Right.

 

I think it's a bit more then that.  The 7700k has been the top selling CPU since its release and continues to be to this date.  Bringing it to x299 was a smart move on Intel's part.  As I've said before, it will be more successful then our community seems to hope it will be.  Even informed people will buy it if they have a need/want for it.  I think assuming that it will only be purchased by those less informed is a bit much.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taf the Ghost]

I figured out a good use case for the 7740X!

 

When you delid your 8c or higher part and burn the chip out, you'll have a spare chip to make sure you didn't toast the mobo as well!

[PCGuy_5960]

1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

I figured out a good use case for the 7740X!

 

When you delid your 8c or higher part and burn the chip out, you'll have a spare chip to make sure you didn't toast the mobo as well!

Nah, that's a use case for the 7640X

[Taf the Ghost]

35 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Chances are extremely high, no KabyX next year. It'll likely be Cannon/Coffee, which ever stupid ass codename is the desktop one, and the X version of that, releasing.

 

Cannonlake isn't coming to desktop platforms. Icelake should be coming in 2018, so I would expect Icelake-X as the next name for the X-platform CPU, as that's at least an architecture change.

[Taf the Ghost]

2 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Nah, that's a use case for the 7640X

Assuming the mobo accepts either of them. 

[Sauron]

52 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Potential, REALISTIC, use cases for the 7640X.

Validation/Diagnostics.

Idiocy tester.

That's a mighty expensive test dummy  not to mention half of the boards features will be disabled with it so extended diagnostics aren't really an option.

[MageTank]

8 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

To be fair, the 7700k didn't natively support the features considered by most as being "locked out".  They simply resocketed a chip and disabled the iGPU, which would have been useless on the new platform.

 

 

I think it's a bit more then that.  The 7700k has been the top selling CPU since its release and continues to be to this date.  Bringing it to x299 was a smart move on Intel's part.  As I've said before, it will be more successful then our community seems to hope it will be.  Even informed people will buy it if they have a need/want for it.  I think assuming that it will only be purchased by those less informed is a bit much.  

 

Every consumer unlocked i7 that gets released (aside from Broadwell, due to limited supply) has been best seller CPU's. Mostly because compared to their enthusiast counterparts, they've always clocked dramatically higher. Your typical gamer didn't need many threads back then. However, it seems they are bridging that gap this time, and offering more cores that can potentially hit 5ghz. That's going to be a far better value for gamers, as more and more applications begin to leverage the additional threads. What this is going to do, is hurt their sales on the consumer i7's, and further invalidate their platform segmentation. 

 

Let's face it. Intel is going to continue that dumb trend of making a dozen different i3's, i5's, and i7's, only a select few of which will have the ability to OC. Ryzen, while unable to compete at the high end with Intel's unlocked selection, absolutely smashes any pentium and i3, and will trade blows with any locked i5, while offering far more threads for the same price. With AMD basically controlling the lower end of the consumer platform as it stands, Intel hurting their own consumer i7 lineup by offering a potentially stronger SKU on a "superior" platform, will only further hurt their own sales in that segment. 

 

Also, what features did the 7700k not support? If you had the right chipset, you got the 4k netflix DRM and Optane support. Those are the only two "features" Kaby had over Skylake if I remember correctly. Now with X299, they've crippled themselves again, due to the lack of an iGPU. How will Intel be able to use 4k netflix as a marketing ploy now?

 

1 minute ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Nah, that's a use case for the 7640X

The 7740X is just as pointless. It's beyond justification at this point. If you want a fast quad-core that only has consumer-level features, you can already get that right now on the consumer platform. 

19 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Either:

A) You'll elaborate on the point without me asking you to, and you're better at explaining some things than me

B) First sentence of the second paragraph of self quote. There is some reason for them to exist, even if it's somewhat stupid. Those are, IMO, the key reasons for this to exist.

I don't see how this is going to be self-cannibalizing if using cheaper Xeons on X99 for the same purpose wasn't. Also, we don't know if the limitations on KLX is artificial or not. To me, the 7740X is just a later batch 7700K on a different socket, not a new, and separate chip.

 

For the most part, I think they still don't. The 7640X, to me, is only good for validation. The 7740X, a niche use case CPU that relatively few people would use in relation to the 7700K, or the 8700K when that comes out. Other than that, Intel doesn't have much reason to unify platforms, just port over the low end parts of the enthusiast to the mainstream with each generation.

AMD's platform is no longer a unified one. There's the 'mainstream' that goes up to 8 cores, dual channel memory, and 24 PCIe lanes, and then the enthusiast that starts at 10 or 12 cores,  goes up to 16, quad channel, and 64 PCIe lanes.

 

The cheap Xeons didn't self-cannibalize their bigger chips because they were blatantly slower. We are talking 6-8 threads at 1.6ghz, for $80ish. If you were uncomfortable with ES CPU's, you could get legitimate Xeons, sold by Intel, that clocked at 3.5ghz for $200. The diagnostic/stopgap argument alone is voided for that very reason. Now, they've removed the ability to use Xeons on that platform, which also hurts the people that wanted consumer board aesthetics/features with lifting power. 

 

How do we not know the limitations of the 7740X yet? We've already seen that it's dual channel only, and a fraction of the PCIe lanes. Sure, they may have thrown the exact same die on a larger substrate with more contacts, but that should only make people angrier. It means they saved a potentially better bin of 7700k's, and recycled them for another platform. 

 

It may just be my unpopular opinion, but i'd rather have Xeon compatibility on the X299 platform, over two niche, entirely unneeded CPU's. 

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

1 hour ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Yep, that's how it works. I have no use for it, so it's useless

 

Definitely bookmarking this^

[PCGuy_5960]

Just now, MageTank said:

The 7740X is just as pointless. It's beyond justification at this point. If you want a fast quad-core that only has consumer-level features, you can already get that right now on the consumer platform. 

Slightly less pointless, I mean, at least it has Hyperthreading

[MageTank]

Just now, PCGuy_5960 said:

Slightly less pointless, I mean, at least it has Hyperthreading

The 7640X is still the better choice as a stopgap/diagnostic chip though. Saves you an extra $100+ for that alone. Both are equally as pointless once you weigh the pros and cons.

[done12many2]

26 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Every consumer unlocked i7 that gets released (aside from Broadwell, due to limited supply) has been best seller CPU's. Mostly because compared to their enthusiast counterparts, they've always clocked dramatically higher. Your typical gamer didn't need many threads back then. However, it seems they are bridging that gap this time, and offering more cores that can potentially hit 5ghz. That's going to be a far better value for gamers, as more and more applications begin to leverage the additional threads. What this is going to do, is hurt their sales on the consumer i7's, and further invalidate their platform segmentation. 

 

Let's face it. Intel is going to continue that dumb trend of making a dozen different i3's, i5's, and i7's, only a select few of which will have the ability to OC. Ryzen, while unable to compete at the high end with Intel's unlocked selection, absolutely smashes any pentium and i3, and will trade blows with any locked i5, while offering far more threads for the same price. With AMD basically controlling the lower end of the consumer platform as it stands, Intel hurting their own consumer i7 lineup by offering a potentially stronger SKU on a "superior" platform, will only further hurt their own sales in that segment. 

 

They will also continue the "dumb trend" of selling a great more CPUs then our community seems likely to admit .  Honestly, Intel is going to be just fine regardless of how much we speculate on how much they are hurting themselves.  The logic that many of us use to justify our reasoning doesn't usually play out in real life.  I think our uncommon passion for this stuff skews reality a bit.  

 

Quote

Also, what features did the 7700k not support? If you had the right chipset, you got the 4k netflix DRM and Optane support. Those are the only two "features" Kaby had over Skylake if I remember correctly. Now with X299, they've crippled themselves again, due to the lack of an iGPU. How will Intel be able to use 4k netflix as a marketing ploy now?

 

Umm, those were your words.  See below.

 

I was simply pointing out that the enthusiast level stuff was never native to the Kaby Lake chip to begin with, therefore it wasn't excluded.  

 

1 hour ago, MageTank said:

I simply don't buy the idea that Intel did this to help consumers embrace the enthusiast platform. If that were the case, they wouldn't be locking out every enthusiast feature for using one of these CPU's.

 

 

 

 

[grimreeper132]

3 hours ago, Morgan MLGman said:

And the fact that you won't even use half of the features of the mobo with this CPU... Classic

half the features, god kaby lake-x would be as bad with half the features, it's got at most a third, and that's pushing it inplaces

[SpaceGhostC2C]

1 hour ago, Drak3 said:

Realistic entry level bid for those that can't afford the supposed $380 or so 7800X?

I don't understand this point really. Since it doesn't support any feature not present in 1151, it is an entry level to what exactly?

 

Sometimes the cheaper option at something doesn't really make sense. Like the "cheapest in newegg" build LTT did recently.

 

 

1 hour ago, done12many2 said:

 

I think it's a bit more then that.  The 7700k has been the top selling CPU since its release and continues to be to this date.

Well, the FX-8350 is the third best-selling CPU in that list. I guess AMD should do the "smart move" of bringing it to X399? 

 

1 hour ago, done12many2 said:

 Bringing it to x299 was a smart move on Intel's part.  As I've said before, it will be more successful then our community seems to hope it will be. 

 

That is kind of the problem: your basis for saying so is nothing else that your own prediction that it will sell well.

The truth is, 1) sales numbers are to be seen, 2) high sales numbers would validate Intel's marketing decision, but it still won't tell us whether it makes sense for the use case of its buyers (i.e., it wouldn't settle most of the debates in this forum).

[done12many2]

3 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Well, the FX-8350 is the third best-selling CPU in that list. I guess AMD should do the "smart move" of bringing it to X399? 

 

Nice comparison.  Very relevant. 

 

3 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

That is kind of the problem: your basis for saying so is nothing else that your own prediction that it will sell well.

The truth is, 1) sales numbers are to be seen, 2) high sales numbers would validate Intel's marketing decision, but it still won't tell us whether it makes sense for the use case of its buyers (i.e., it wouldn't settle most of the debates in this forum).

 

See you get it.  None of us know what's going to happen.  Something tells me that they (Intel) know a little more about selling CPUs then we do.    Yet we love to determine what is and isn't a mistake based on our own personal experiences.  It's what we do on LTT.  

[Drak3]

8 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Since it doesn't support any feature not present in 1151, it is an entry level to what exactly?

X299. Though the role would be 10,000x better filled with the 7800X and a higher end hexacore with more PCIe lanes occupy the 7800X's current price point.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

10 minutes ago, done12many2 said:

 

Nice comparison.  Very relevant. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

 

Quote

 

See you get it.  None of us know what's going to happen.  Something tells me that they (Intel) know a little more about selling CPUs then we do.   

 

They also know a little about selling absurd CPUs (cfr. i3-7350K). Doesn't change what I said.

Quote

Yet we love to determine what is and isn't a mistake based on our own personal experiences.  It's what we do on LTT.  

There is like an infinite difference between discussing based on personal experience and discussing based on reasoning (which includes abstract thinking and looking from different points of view)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

The more you know!

 

(You can also skip all previous links and head straight to http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fanboy&defid=166016).

[done12many2]

Just now, SpaceGhostC2C said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

 

They also know a little about selling absurd CPUs (cfr. i3-7350K). Doesn't change what I said.

There is like an infinite difference between discussing based on personal experience and discussing based on reasoning (which includes abstract thinking and looking from different points of views)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

The more you know!

 

(You can also skip all previous links and head straight to http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fanboy&defid=166016).

 

Ok.  Sounds great.  Thanks

[SpaceGhostC2C]

7 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

X299.

That is reiterating, not clarifying  I'm asking what entering to X299 means given that it certainly doesn't mean entering any of the features that makes it different from Z170...