What does AMD Vega need to be a success?

[tom_w141]

2 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

And? How do you know that Volta is just overclocked Pascal? Source?

I never discussed clocks of that I have no idea. I just know its not a new arch therefore to improve the core count must be higher

 

 

[DildorTheDecent]

14 minutes ago, SoloDolo said:

I mean Volta is pretty far off no? Probably wont see them till 2018

Volta should surface Q2 or Q3 2017. 2018 will probably have the Ti and new Titan should they decide to go that route. 

[Kobathor]

2 hours ago, tom_w141 said:

Yes I know that  Sorry i fleshed my post out a bit more but it was an edit so you probably didn't see sorry.

Nah, your edited post is more helpful. I guess you're right, it would be okay for Vega right now, since crazily better graphics cards aren't needed anyways. 

[maartendc]

I just needs a good price to performance ratio, and perform at least on par with a 1080. A version on par with 1070 would also be good.

[Princess Luna]

40 minutes ago, DildorTheDecent said:

Volta should surface Q2 or Q3 2017. 2018 will probably have the Ti and new Titan should they decide to go that route. 

Yeah if Volta releases still in 2017 I'll delay the GPU upgrade all the way to the TITAN Xv²

[DildorTheDecent]

8 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

Yeah if Volta releases still in 2017 I'll delay the GPU upgrade all the way to the TITAN Xv²

Yeah i'd say i'd do that too. Gains over 2 980s should be mega.

[SoloDolo]

3 hours ago, Princess Cadence said:

Yeah if Volta releases still in 2017 I'll delay the GPU upgrade all the way to the TITAN Xv²

I thought the pascal refresh will come in 2017 and Volta will come in 2018.

[Princess Luna]

4 minutes ago, SoloDolo said:

I thought the pascal refresh will come in 2017 and Volta will come in 2018.

No that whole Pascal+ refresh deal was a rumor that end up untrue, we're going to the next generation already. AMD wants to fight for High End but their best Vega is at best between the 1080 and 1080ti, so by the time it finally releases nVidia will already have much higher end for the price people will to pay and probably with a better offering on the mid end with the GTX 2060ti what will make Vega pointless.

 

A shame AMD won't hit nVidia as hard as it hit Intel.

[SoloDolo]

3 hours ago, Princess Cadence said:

No that whole Pascal+ refresh deal was a rumor that end up untrue, we're going to the next generation already. AMD wants to fight for High End but their best Vega is at best between the 1080 and 1080ti, so by the time it finally releases nVidia will already have much higher end for the price people will to pay and probably with a better offering on the mid end with the GTX 2060ti what will make Vega pointless.

 

A shame AMD won't hit nVidia as hard as it hit Intel.

That is a darn shame. I was hoping to eventually move to a only AMD rig just for the heck of it.However, I am not going to be using an inferior product. My 1800x is amazing for gaming and the massive amount of VM work I do, better than the 6800k I had. However, my 2 1080s have been pretty solid and Nvidia has done a good job with SLI profiles(so far). Guess Ill be waiting for Volta Tis. 

[othertomperson]

It needs to come out a year ago, and it needs to be priced far cheaper than it possibly can be due to the massive die and HBM2.

 

AMD have really fucked themselves over with this one :-/

 

I think the best you can hope for is that they are good enough for professional work that the FE sells very well and they can tolerate vanishing margins on the consumer Vega parts.

[App4that]

First off, The 1080 is not 25% faster than a 980ti, some 980ti match the 1080. A 980ti at it's base clock speed no one on earth runs their 980ti at is 1000MHz and the source of that confusion. My 980ti Hybrid is a few fps behind my buddies 1080 G1. Had to clear that up sorry.

 

Now then, to the topic at hand.

 

I'm watching Vega closely and since I'm running Ryzen wouldn't mind my first all AMD machine. Vega has a price ceiling of 500us if it's anywhere below the 1080ti. But if the top Vega can beat a 1080 even by 10% while costing less than 500 in board partner examples, Vega will sell and sell well. Then Vega has to offer a counter example to the 1070, which has sold way more than the 1080 or 1080ti, and where the money is. There Vega needs a clear victory, not the AMD only title victory the 390 had. If a Vega card can clearly beat the 1070 while being cheaper, Volta won't matter until it launches. Then AMD can refresh the 1070 killer into a 1170 killer. 

[othertomperson]

6 minutes ago, App4that said:

 Vega has a price ceiling of 500us if it's anywhere below the 1080ti. 

in other words, AMD need to get into a price war with Nvidia, when Nvidia have a much smaller die with only 2560 or 3580 CUDA cores, much cheaper GDDR5X or even GDDR5 depending on the tier. AMD's shareprice dropped dramatically a few weeks ago at the mere lack of mention of margins. This isn't a price war AMD needs right now.

 

Even if Nvidia weren't in a much better financial position generally, they have much more margin to cut into in the product if they need to.

[SoloDolo]

21 minutes ago, App4that said:

First off, The 1080 is not 25% faster than a 980ti, some 980ti match the 1080. A 980ti at it's base clock speed no one on earth runs their 980ti at is 1000MHz and the source of that confusion. My 980ti Hybrid is a few fps behind my buddies 1080 G1. Had to clear that up sorry.

 

Now then, to the topic at hand.

 

I'm watching Vega closely and since I'm running Ryzen wouldn't mind my first all AMD machine. Vega has a price ceiling of 500us if it's anywhere below the 1080ti. But if the top Vega can beat a 1080 even by 10% while costing less than 500 in board partner examples, Vega will sell and sell well. Then Vega has to offer a counter example to the 1070, which has sold way more than the 1080 or 1080ti, and where the money is. There Vega needs a clear victory, not the AMD only title victory the 390 had. If a Vega card can clearly beat the 1070 while being cheaper, Volta won't matter until it launches. Then AMD can refresh the 1070 killer into a 1170 killer. 

No. Just no.  The 1080 is easily pushing past a 980 Ti. The 1070 matches a 980 Ti so I have zero idea where you are thinking a 980 Ti is going to beat out a 1080.  Your friend probably has his 1080 at stock speeds if anything. An OCd 980 Ti will fall behind an OCd 1070 by 5-10% depending on title. An OCd 1080 Ti will be 25% faster than a OCd 980 Ti.  

 

 

 

[MysticLTT]

4 hours ago, SoloDolo said:

I thought the pascal refresh will come in 2017 and Volta will come in 2018.

I watched Huang say, they will announce new GeForce cards this year, with my own eyes, weren't you guys watching the same Computex stream? 

[Kenoxabe]

It needs to :

 

a. Release a card that has 1080 performance for the price of 1070.

b. Release a card that has 1080 Ti performance for the price of a 1080.

 

Just my opinion though. 

[Kenoxabe]

doublepost

Edited June 2, 2017 by ZakuII

[MysticLTT]

4 minutes ago, ZakuII said:

It needs to :

 

a. Release a card that has 1080 performance for the price of 1070.

b. Release a card that has 1080 Ti performance for the price of a 1080.

 

Just my opinion though. 

They should, but every time they get more or less powerful card, that inches Nvidia, they jack up the price, like if they are some premium brand. 

[App4that]

1 hour ago, othertomperson said:

in other words, AMD need to get into a price war with Nvidia, when Nvidia have a much smaller die with only 2560 or 3580 CUDA cores, much cheaper GDDR5X or even GDDR5 depending on the tier. AMD's shareprice dropped dramatically a few weeks ago at the mere lack of mention of margins. This isn't a price war AMD needs right now.

 

Even if Nvidia weren't in a much better financial position generally, they have much more margin to cut into in the product if they need to.

AMD chose to run HBM2, they're stuck. They could have saved Vega as a 580 replacement to fight Volta. Not really about what's fair, but what it will take to get people away from Nvidia.

 

1 hour ago, SoloDolo said:

No. Just no. 

Run a 980ti between 1500 and 1600Mhz and come back. 

[SoloDolo]

45 minutes ago, App4that said:

AMD chose to run HBM2, they're stuck. They could have saved Vega as a 580 replacement to fight Volta. Not really about what's fair, but what it will take to get people away from Nvidia.

 

Run a 980ti between 1500 and 1600Mhz and come back. 

Run a GTX 1080 at 2000mhz and the gap is still large. Dozens of benchmarks dont lie. You also have to hit the jack pot to hit 1500mhz let alone 1600mhz and be on a waterblock, which the majority of owners are not. You could hit 2100mhz on a waterblock 1080 if we are really getting into it. Overclocking will always change things. Stock vs Stock the 980 Ti is 20- 25% weaker than a GTX 1080. That is what we are comparing and should see similar performance with Volta 2080 unless the can really do something special with it. 

 

[App4that]

36 minutes ago, SoloDolo said:

Run a GTX 1080 at 2000mhz and the gap is still large. Dozens of benchmarks dont lie. You also have to hit the jack pot to hit 1500mhz let alone 1600mhz and be on a waterblock, which the majority of owners are not. You could hit 2100mhz on a waterblock 1080 if we are really getting into it. Overclocking will always change things. Stock vs Stock the 980 Ti is 20- 25% weaker than a GTX 1080. That is what we are comparing and should see similar performance with Volta 2080 unless the can really do something special with it. 

 

We're diving off topic here, but I'm sorry you're wrong. The difference in how Maxwell and Pascal boosts means if you test them stock the Maxwell card falls behind the Pascal cardm but that also means Maxwell cards overclock more. 

 

Here's a new title with both cards stock, the 980ti and 1070 go back and forth. Ask anyone who works with both and they'll tell you Maxwell gains more from overclocking and this 980ti has 300MHz at least of headroom. 

 

If you want to continue this please send me a PM, but the topic isn't the 980ti so let's leave this to the topics already talking about this.

 

 

[xAcid9]

For Vega to be success it need to have a stellar release driver to drive the awesome new arch imo.

[SSJGodemis]

18 hours ago, App4that said:

We're diving off topic here, but I'm sorry you're wrong. The difference in how Maxwell and Pascal boosts means if you test them stock the Maxwell card falls behind the Pascal cardm but that also means Maxwell cards overclock more. 

 

Here's a new title with both cards stock, the 980ti and 1070 go back and forth. Ask anyone who works with both and they'll tell you Maxwell gains more from overclocking and this 980ti has 300MHz at least of headroom. 

 

If you want to continue this please send me a PM, but the topic isn't the 980ti so let's leave this to the topics already talking about this.

 

 

Lol ok. 980 Ti~1070. Overclocked a 1070 will still match a 980 Ti. 1080 is 20-25% faster than 1070 and 980 Ti at stock which i posted literal benchmarks for . But im still wrong? Makes zero sense. 

 

The point is the 2070 will probably be at 1080 Ti levels and the 2080 will be 20-25% faster than that. Just like the Maxwell to Pascal jump. That has been the current trend for 3 years now. 970~780 Ti and 980 was 20~25% faster. 

 

 

[lettuce head]

honestly for Vega to be relevant, it can't just compete with the gtx 1080 at a slightly lower price point. Most of the market for that grade gpu already bought a 1080, or would just wait for Volta. Vega has to compete with whatever will come out of Volta, which is pretty unlikely. Amd can survive with the whole, release after Nvidia at a lower price point with similar performance thing they have going, but it's not going to make them thrive. Before Ryzen, when was the last time AMD didn't release something on the pc platform that wasn't a reaction to Nvidia/intel?
The HBM2 memory thing may be a blessing or a curse, no way to really know quite yet. But if their flagship model doesn't beat the upcoming gtx1170 at a similar price, I doubt they'll consider Vega a success. On the lower end of the market, the profit margin gets so much lower; it's enough to stay out of the red, but the real profit comes from the high end hardware.

[App4that]

21 minutes ago, SSJGodemis said:

Lol ok. 980 Ti~1070. Overclocked a 1070 will still match a 980 Ti. 1080 is 20-25% faster than 1070 and 980 Ti at stock which i posted literal benchmarks for . But im still wrong? Makes zero sense. 

 

My point is the 2070 will probably be at 1080 Ti levels and the 2080 will be 20-25% faster than that. Just like the Maxwell to Pascal jump. That has been the current trend for 3 years now. 970~780 Ti and 980 was 20~25% faster. 

 

 

Because you keep going back to stock clocks. But I already said this is off topic. But talk to @Morgan MLGman

 

A 390 beat a 970. The 480 and 580 beat a 1060. If you want to go off trends Nvidia will lose again in the midrange, which Vega is included in. Vega isn't just a high end architecture. All AMD has to do is beat Nvidia's best selling cards which are the 1070 and below to win. 

 

[lettuce head]

2 minutes ago, App4that said:

Because you keep going back to stock clocks. But I already said this is off topic. But talk to @Morgan MLGman

 

A 390 beat a 970. The 480 and 580 beat a 1060. If you want to go off trends Nvidia will lose again in the midrange, which Vega is included in. Vega isn't just a high end architecture. All AMD has to do is beat Nvidia's best selling cards which are the 1070 and below to win. 

 

he sounds like a 980ti owner who's mad he didn't wait for a 1070 at launch. I hope AMD does well. But with how long its taking to release, I don't see it as very likely. Every day it isn't released is money that they aren't making and money NVidia is making.