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Google says it would cost too much to gather wage gap data

Mitchell B
By Mitchell B
in Tech News
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Posted
1 minute ago, Misanthrope said:

It should be but if often isn't: Most wage gap statistics never go into that level of detail to determine there's a wage gap they just take X amount of men vs X amount of women and do an average salary figure, regardless of position and such.

 

So by this logic of course Google will probably have a wage gap simply by virtue of having far more men in some engineering areas but if they were to go do per-position data they'd come out ok. But even if they pushed per-position data I suspect most feminist would point out at the overall numbers and call them misogynists. 

 

I could be wrong but most of the time people denouncing a wage gap in favor of women are never reasonable and always just trying to push an agenda by playing fast and loose with the numbers.

Exactly like this:

8 hours ago, SCHISCHKA said:

SELECT SUM(SALARY) FROM EMPLOYEE_TABLE WHERE PENIS=1;

SELECT SUM(SALARY) FROM EMPLOYEE_TABLE WHERE PENIS=0;

 


 

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Posted
28 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

When people commonly mention gender wage gaps, they typically mean as a systemic problem, not specifically in regards to an individual company.  Presumably this is what @BluJay614 was referring to.

Yeah doesn't change the fact that it's fake. Men and women are different. When a man works full time we are referring to 40+ hours when a women works full time we refer to it as 35 hours. Not to mention women are more likely to take time off for family. If you truly do research you realize the number feminazis are quoting don't account for anything which means they mean nothing

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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12 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah doesn't change the fact that it's fake. Men and women are different. When a man works full time we are referring to 40+ hours when a women works full time we refer to it as 35 hours. Not to mention women are more likely to take time off for family. If you truly do research you realize the number feminazis are quoting don't account for anything which means they mean nothing

I agree.

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/449522-smoking-barrels-ltts-unnofficial-gun-club/

 

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1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Isn't this more about women and men with the exact same job getting paid differently?

In theory, yes, and if that's what it was about, I think we would all agree that that would be discrimination and a real problem.  But I watched a video on it once, and that was not what they were measuring.  They just looked at the total average yearly income of men and women, and complained there was a difference, and I was like " xD  what!? "  Obviously that is a stupid measurement since it captures a bunch of other factors that aren't relevant in a discussion about true equality.  But, since it's often never made clear what is meant when someone says "wage gap" it tends to make the whole discussion useless.

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45 minutes ago, Centurius said:

Not that I am particularly convinced that a pay gap exists but that argument is about as dumb as a lot of the arguments I've heard from the other side. That scenario presumes all business owners are fully rational actors, that they recognize women are of equal capability and then decide to pay them less because they can get away with it. If a pay gap exists it will be because employers do not acknowledge women to have the same abilities as the men even though they are the same on paper (and in practice).

 

As for whether a pay gap exists, well that's still not been proven or disproven fully under peer-reviewed research using the scientific method and it doesn't change that Google is required under their contracts with the government to provide data on what they pay to their personnel.

It has nothing to do with being rational. It is completely based on self interest. Can a company be sexist and maybe pay women less? Yes, but that would be an insanely small percentage of all the companies. It is not a dumb argument at all. It is common sense.

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42 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah doesn't change the fact that it's fake. Men and women are different. When a man works full time we are referring to 40+ hours when a women works full time we refer to it as 35 hours. Not to mention women are more likely to take time off for family. If you truly do research you realize the number feminazis are quoting don't account for anything which means they mean nothing

As a general rule, anyone who uses "feminazis" unironically can't be taken seriously.

 

Speak like an adult, please.  And if you're going to make a claim like this, please cite evidence... something tells me you don't have any.

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2 minutes ago, Commodus said:

As a general rule, anyone who uses "feminazis" unironically can't be taken seriously.

 

Speak like an adult, please.  And if you're going to make a claim like this, please cite evidence... something tells me you don't have any.

Sorry but there has to be a distinction, normally feminists are for equality of BOTH genders someone like based mom Christina Hoff Sommers. Feminazi's on the other hand... or would you like the term radical feminist instead?

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22 minutes ago, Commodus said:

As a general rule, anyone who uses "feminazis" unironically can't be taken seriously.

 

Speak like an adult, please.  And if you're going to make a claim like this, please cite evidence... something tells me you don't have any.

The reason I call them feminazis is for the backlash it causes. It's humorous and here are the sources.

Sources

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

 

http://work.chron.com/male-vs-female-statistics-workplace-america-23880.html

 

https://othersociologist.com/sociology-of-gender/

 

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/time-spent-working-by-full-and-part-time-status-gender-and-location-in-2014.htm

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#7b8dc9282596

 

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/time-spent-working-by-full-and-part-time-status-gender-and-location-in-2014.htm

 

www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence

 

https://www.nij.gov/topics/victims-victimization/Pages/welcome.aspx

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/05/03/151282913/what-america-s-women-do-for-work

 

http://nortonbooks.typepad.com/everydaysociology/2009/05/who-is-most-likely-to-be-a-crime-victim.html

 

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/men-die-earlier-but-womens-health-gets-four-times-more-funding/news-story/6bfc4ea7da62ad84743d7451de6de960

 

http://www.divorcenet.com/resources/divorce/for-men/divorce-for-men-why-women-get-child-custody-over-80-time

 

http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-men-have-a-say-in-abortion

 

http://family.findlaw.com/paternity/fathers-rights-and-abortion.html

 

It's not hard to find proof as its a much more well known the wage gap is false. The other sources I added are to show women think men are these all mighty rulers when in reality men have it worse off than women. The CDC found men get raped more than when they factor in prision. Men don't have any legal say if a women gets an abortion. Even if they wanted the child. Men have longer and more harsh legal punishments. Men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes. Presumtions still exist that defaulted the women is the primary care taker in divorces even if they are unfit to raise children. Women are still not required to enter the draft. 93% of work related deaths are men. The list goes on and on. I'm not saying everyone should change to meninists but there are problems on both sides. The media only cares about unique vistors for adds so they are going to feed whatever lies they want. 

 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted

I think this thread has gotten way off topic. The topic should be if Google can or can't easily collect and compile the data. It is not about whether or not it exists. I think that I'd hard to say since we do not know all the factors Google would need to take into consideration. 

The problem with doing statistics like this is that if you aren't careful then the results will become very skewed and the wrong conclusion can be drawn (which would lead to even more bad things). 

 

 

Here is a good video about the wage gap (if it exists or not):

 

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2 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Hello 

https://web.stanford.edu/group/scspi/_media/pdf/key_issues/gender_research.pdf

it is a reasearch paper written by someone with a PHD. Not saying your dumb but open your eyes for a sec

Are you trolling? It is the second time you post the same link (source? where was this published?) and:

1) Apparently, you haven't even read it, because

2) It supports the existence of a gender wage gap. It goes on to decompose it on the ways I've mentioned above. And it concludes that productivity-related factors cannot explain  the full difference.

Yes, definitely: open your eyes for a sec. And use them to read what you linked.

 

7 hours ago, Carclis said:

But that is kinda redundant when you could just make the female worker redundant should she become pregnant (also illegal and unethical I know).

That may entail costs in qualified occupations. McDonald's doesn't need to worry about it, but for Intel's R&D department replacing anyone for a few months, or even permanently, isn't free.

 

3 hours ago, FakezZ said:

Man, the law of Universal Gravitation is not as simple as "you drop things and they fall"

Exactly. But dropping stuff works 10/10 times. Newton's Universal Gravitation is wrong, so it works 0/10 times. It's just a good enough approximation in some cases, and we typically lack the precision needed to tell the difference on earthly experiments.

Dude, it's simple: you gave as an example a theory that has already been debunked and superseded xD

3 hours ago, FakezZ said:

in the end nobody really knows what is going to happen to the amount sold.

Citation needed. Peer-reviewed papers vs youtube videos of trolls "debating" other people at their same intellectual level is kind of getting old.

3 hours ago, FakezZ said:

I would be happy to hear something that can actually be replicated over and over in the market with exact precision.

Nothing is replicated with exact precision in  any science (for isntance, lack of precision is precisely what made Newton's law seem correct)

3 hours ago, FakezZ said:

I bet you won't find a thing.

You said the same last time. But in any case, I'm done with this asymmetric burden of proof: provide something at the same level I have, or go take the time to really learn about the subject instead of simply engaging in humongous confirmation bias.

There's a lot of that in this thread, to be fair: no one seems to have the time or interest to understand any serious research that is not going to fit their current dogmatic views. They will get any dude on youtube any minute if it confirms their believes, though, but cautious scientific research with no extremist conclusions, that may trigger further research and questioning? Who needs that... 9_9

 

In any case, time to ban myself: I'm way past my "no duty calls" rule. After all, whatever we post here, tomorrow there are still going to be millions of uninformed feminists flooding the internet with claims of "300% gender pay gaps; also, your CPU is sexist", and millions of resentful males flooding the internet with claims of exactly 0% gaps, "it's all a feminazi conspiracy", both happy to collide in fruitless meme wars.

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Posted
Just now, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Are you trolling? It is the second time you post the same link (source? where was this published?) and:

 

This is one of those times were you have to let the crazy people keep spewing as they will deny anything. Even if it is the truth. Whatever have fun defending yourself

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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2 hours ago, Jito463 said:

When people commonly mention gender wage gaps, they typically mean as a systemic problem, not specifically in regards to an individual company.  Presumably this is what @BluJay614 was referring to.

Perhaps so, but that's not what this would be about - this is specifically about google and as of yet there is no real data in either direction.

2 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

It should be but if often isn't: Most wage gap statistics never go into that level of detail to determine there's a wage gap they just take X amount of men vs X amount of women and do an average salary figure, regardless of position and such.

 

So by this logic of course Google will probably have a wage gap simply by virtue of having far more men in some engineering areas but if they were to go do per-position data they'd come out ok. But even if they pushed per-position data I suspect most feminist would point out at the overall numbers and call them misogynists. 

 

I could be wrong but most of the time people denouncing a wage gap in favor of women are never reasonable and always just trying to push an agenda by playing fast and loose with the numbers.

If you took a general average of the whole engineering department the result would be skewed but for that same reason I doubt it would be taken seriously in court. Google isn't short on lawyers.

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ahahaha this thread is fucking golden.

 

At worst we have a 7% gap, GG and that is here because men are more likely to ask for a raise than women are and then personal things like looks and how you behave.

http://www.ne.su.se/polopoly_fs/1.99257.1346412310!/menu/standard/file/anna_sandberg.pdf 

Proves that men are more likely to ask for a raise.

 

Also, I think Google is correct. The amount of time and money it would take to gather all the information and I mean ALL of it, not just the wage, gender, field and hours worked, would be a lot of time and money. At the time they are done with it, it might be outdated. 

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While it can be argued about how significant the wage gap is (as a general concept), to deny its existence is little better than putting your head in the sand and saying the world does not exist anymore. The opposite extreme is just as bad as the original; it blinds you from the bigger picture at hand.

 

From my experience with these kinds of sociopolitical debates, this is more often than not true: if there is a report claiming a large wage gap in favor of women, the same people denouncing the idea would start screaming that it is a "massive problem". The vice versa is also true, where the original supporters of the principle start shouting that "it is a fabrication used to undermine our cause".

 

TL:DR, there is far too much information noise to make a sound judgement on the matter (that TOTALLY has never happened before :dry:).

Read the community standards; it's like a guide on how to not be a moron.

 

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Remember, calling facts opinions does not ever make the facts opinions, no matter what nonsense you pull.

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43 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Perhaps so, but that's not what this would be about - this is specifically about google and as of yet there is no real data in either direction.

If you took a general average of the whole engineering department the result would be skewed but for that same reason I doubt it would be taken seriously in court. Google isn't short on lawyers.

Court is one thing but public opinion would probably go against them anyway (sadly) so that's probably why they want to avoid it altogether. 

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If this wage gap shit is true I'm gonna make my own company, but I'd never hire these expensive men. 

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3 hours ago, BuckGup said:

The reason I call them feminazis is for the backlash it causes. It's humorous and here are the sources.

Sources

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

 

http://work.chron.com/male-vs-female-statistics-workplace-america-23880.html

 

https://othersociologist.com/sociology-of-gender/

 

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/time-spent-working-by-full-and-part-time-status-gender-and-location-in-2014.htm

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#7b8dc9282596

 

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/time-spent-working-by-full-and-part-time-status-gender-and-location-in-2014.htm

 

www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence

 

https://www.nij.gov/topics/victims-victimization/Pages/welcome.aspx

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/05/03/151282913/what-america-s-women-do-for-work

 

http://nortonbooks.typepad.com/everydaysociology/2009/05/who-is-most-likely-to-be-a-crime-victim.html

 

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/men-die-earlier-but-womens-health-gets-four-times-more-funding/news-story/6bfc4ea7da62ad84743d7451de6de960

 

http://www.divorcenet.com/resources/divorce/for-men/divorce-for-men-why-women-get-child-custody-over-80-time

 

http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-men-have-a-say-in-abortion

 

http://family.findlaw.com/paternity/fathers-rights-and-abortion.html

 

It's not hard to find proof as its a much more well known the wage gap is false. The other sources I added are to show women think men are these all mighty rulers when in reality men have it worse off than women. The CDC found men get raped more than when they factor in prision. Men don't have any legal say if a women gets an abortion. Even if they wanted the child. Men have longer and more harsh legal punishments. Men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes. Presumtions still exist that defaulted the women is the primary care taker in divorces even if they are unfit to raise children. Women are still not required to enter the draft. 93% of work related deaths are men. The list goes on and on. I'm not saying everyone should change to meninists but there are problems on both sides. The media only cares about unique vistors for adds so they are going to feed whatever lies they want. 

 

I don't think it's so much false as mischaracterized.  They may not usually be paid less for the same job, but they're punished for reproduction (the US is one of the few western countries whose mandatory maternity leave goes unpaid) and are frequently discouraged from entering fields where they'd get better pay, whether through "girls aren't good at math" stereotypes or just hostile company cultures.  On that note: typical salaries for certain fields are way out of whack for the amount of knowledge/work involved (see: teachers), but that's another argument altogether.

 

You are raising some important concerns.  With that said, there are some counterbalances to those points.  Prison rape is horrible, but it's still true that most rape outside of prison is men violating women.  They require separate solutions.  And abortion?  I'm uncomfortable with giving men legal say right now, at least not without some heavy conditions, precisely because it gives a man control over a woman's body.  Parenting is ideally an equal-responsibility effort; pregnancy, by definition, is not.

 

And the draft... well, that might change now that women are allowed to serve with infantry units.  There's not exactly a lot of pressure, though, since officials haven't prosecuted non-registration for the draft in the past 30 years.  Why require that women sign up when there's no teeth to the legislation?

 

By the way: thanks for citing (mostly) reliable sources.  I don't think they necessarily touch on everything, but it's a refreshing break.

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3 hours ago, JuNex03 said:

Sorry but there has to be a distinction, normally feminists are for equality of BOTH genders someone like based mom Christina Hoff Sommers. Feminazi's on the other hand... or would you like the term radical feminist instead?

"Radical feminist" is better, but the problem is both that and "feminazi" tend to be used more as bids to dismiss feminism as a whole, to make it seem as if women who are simply outspoken about pay/rights/representation are really waging a war on men.

 

Someone like Sommers is... mixed.  While she has done some fact-checking, she's also been accused of the same crisis manufacturing as the people she's attacking.  And I have a beef with guys who believe that only someone like Sommers can be a 'real' feminist, because it belies their insecurity: they frequently like her because she portrays men as a persecuted class, and shifts the narrative back to them.  There's nothing scarier to a traditionalist man than being anywhere besides the center of the conversation... but a truly comprehensive feminism means accepting that there will be plenty of moments where male input isn't all that necessary (or is even counterproductive).

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29 minutes ago, Commodus said:

I don't think it's so much false as mischaracterized.  They may not usually be paid less for the same job, but they're punished for reproduction (the US is one of the few western countries whose mandatory maternity leave goes unpaid) and are frequently discouraged from entering fields where they'd get better pay, whether through "girls aren't good at math" stereotypes or just hostile company cultures.  On that note: typical salaries for certain fields are way out of whack for the amount of knowledge/work involved (see: teachers), but that's another argument altogether.

 

You are raising some important concerns.  With that said, there are some counterbalances to those points.  Prison rape is horrible, but it's still true that most rape outside of prison is men violating women.  They require separate solutions.  And abortion?  I'm uncomfortable with giving men legal say right now, at least not without some heavy conditions, precisely because it gives a man control over a woman's body.  Parenting is ideally an equal-responsibility effort; pregnancy, by definition, is not.

 

And the draft... well, that might change now that women are allowed to serve with infantry units.  There's not exactly a lot of pressure, though, since officials haven't prosecuted non-registration for the draft in the past 30 years.  Why require that women sign up when there's no teeth to the legislation?

 

By the way: thanks for citing (mostly) reliable sources.  I don't think they necessarily touch on everything, but it's a refreshing break.

I baby wouldn't exist without both parties. It's just as much of a man's as it is a womens. It's inside of a women but in animals usually the males protect the women and you ned both parties for the baby to survive. Also if rape was reclassified to include forced penetration from a 3rd party men and women would be equal. 

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Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
Just now, BuckGup said:

I baby wouldn't exist without both parties. It's just as much of a man's as it is a womens. It's inside of a women but in animals usually the males protect the women and you ned both parties for the baby to survive. Also if rape was reclassified to include forced penetration from a 3rd party men and women would be equal. 

But we don't live in the wilderness.  While having both parents present is ideal, a woman doesn't need a man during or after pregnancy.  The burden is always disproportionately hers.  And the truth is that men don't always hold up their end of the bargain when they can.  You may think that you're creating true equality by giving the man legal say over the fate of the child, but you're really giving dominance to men who should have no business controlling a pregnancy.

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Wage gap is a myth it was made by taking the stats from the government that didn't compare people with like jobs. An didn't take into account occupation, hours worked, pregnancy, and days taken off. Even when I worked all the women made more then me and had less experience and time worked at the place of employment.

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15 hours ago, Mitchell B said:

Original article from Engadget.

 

Google refuses to hand over employee income records. Explaining that it would cost too much and require too much time. Raising suspicions about a disparity in men and women's pay. 

 

 

 

That is just a pointless feminists and SJW talking point

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1 hour ago, Commodus said:

But we don't live in the wilderness.  While having both parents present is ideal, a woman doesn't need a man during or after pregnancy.  The burden is always disproportionately hers.  And the truth is that men don't always hold up their end of the bargain when they can.  You may think that you're creating true equality by giving the man legal say over the fate of the child, but you're really giving dominance to men who should have no business controlling a pregnancy.

I think the problem is the mandatory child support.

If a woman accidentally gets pregnant (let's say the condom broke), then she has power over that man's financial status for the next 18 or so years. Let's say the man simply don't want a child for whatever reason, then he will still be forced to give money to the woman simply because she chose to keep the child.

 

We are not talking about some small sums of money either. Here is a quick estimate of what a man in California would need to pay a woman if a condom broke and the woman decided to keep the child against the man's will:

He does not want the child at all, so he will only see the child maybe one weekend a month or so (just out of obligation). That is about 7% time with the child (this matters for child support calculations).

Let's say the woman works at a daycare which ears about 3500 dollars per month (average in California). The man work in IT which averages 7400 in California.

Assuming I calculated everything correctly, then the man will pay the woman over 1000 dollars a month (almost 1100), for something he has no control over.

That turns out to be a bit over 230,000 dollars over 18 years.

 

Is it really fair that a person should be able to demand 230,000 dollars from another person, for something that person has no control over?

At the same time, I don't think giving men control over abortions, nor abolishing the child support system are good solutions either. I think reworking the child support system would remove some of the "need" for men to control abortions.

 

It's just one of the many things where striving for true equality is impractical and stupid.

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2 hours ago, Commodus said:

 And the truth is that men and women don't always hold up their end of the bargain when they can.

Let's not create fallacies through omission.

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3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I think the problem is the mandatory child support.

If a woman accidentally gets pregnant (let's say the condom broke), then she has power over that man's financial status for the next 18 or so years. Let's say the man simply don't want a child for whatever reason, then he will still be forced to give money to the woman simply because she chose to keep the child.

 

We are not talking about some small sums of money either. Here is a quick estimate of what a man in California would need to pay a woman if a condom broke and the woman decided to keep the child against the man's will:

He does not want the child at all, so he will only see the child maybe one weekend a month or so (just out of obligation). That is about 7% time with the child (this matters for child support calculations).

Let's say the woman works at a daycare which ears about 3500 dollars per month (average in California). The man work in IT which averages 7400 in California.

Assuming I calculated everything correctly, then the man will pay the woman over 1000 dollars a month (almost 1100), for something he has no control over.

That turns out to be a bit over 230,000 dollars over 18 years.

 

Is it really fair that a person should be able to demand 230,000 dollars from another person, for something that person has no control over?

At the same time, I don't think giving men control over abortions, nor abolishing the child support system are good solutions either. I think reworking the child support system would remove some of the "need" for men to control abortions.

 

It's just one of the many things where striving for true equality is impractical and stupid.

It's definitely a tricky issue on that front.  In cases like this, you'd want to make the distinction between accidents like the one you describe and, say, just being irresponsible.  If you purposefully avoided protection or were trying for a kid and then had second thoughts... well, too bad!  The challenge would be proving intent, and I don't know that there's easy answers to that.

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