MicroSoft is actively blocking W7/8/8.1 Windows Updates on KabyLake and Ryzen systems

[Dabombinable]

1 minute ago, djdwosk97 said:

Can I get a TLDW?

TL;DW
Microsoft is buthurt that almost 50% of all PC still run Windows 7 and since its difficult to backport the telementary part of Windows 10 as well as the store (UWP BS), they are trying to force people to W10. 

[vanished]

34 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Can I get a TLDW?

 

29 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

TL;DW
Microsoft is buthurt that almost 50% of all PC still run Windows 7 and since its difficult to backport the telementary part of Windows 10 as well as the store (UWP BS), they are trying to force people to W10. 

and even if there is some CPU usage change that they can't bring to older hardware, they are perfectly able to continue giving all other updates - they simply are choosing not to.

[Zeeus]

This is actually crazy. Ms is fked up

[spwath]

On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 0:31 AM, DeadEyePsycho said:

Do you misspell the current trademarked names on purpose? Serious question here.

Its spelled right...

[Guest]

Just now, spwath said:

Its spelled right...

*It's

 

sorry

[spwath]

Just now, deXxterlab97 said:

*It's

 

sorry

I didn't say its was spelled right.

[MoraisGT]

9 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

That's because its the RX 480 and is pretty much the only one supported. Even the R9 300 series has problems.

Did you have issues yourself?

 

I for one had a 7970, 2x 280X, 385 and now de 480. All of them worked flawlessly when it came to drivers, so....

[jagdtigger]

@djdwosk97
Stop defending MS and their idiocy.

Win8.1 mainstream support which means it should support the new CPU's, they flat out blocked all updates which begs for a class action lawsuit.

 

Win7 is on extended which means security updates only, regardless of the hardware. Flat out blocked all updates again.

 

Now then MS just proves once again that they cant be trusted  .

[Dabombinable]

1 hour ago, MoraisGT said:

Did you have issues yourself?

 

I for one had a 7970, 2x 280X, 385 and now de 480. All of them worked flawlessly when it came to drivers, so....

To run Steam under Ubuntu 16.04 and newer you need to use AMD's official open source drivers as the fglrx drivers are no longer supported. Problem is, from what I can tell only some of the 300 series, the RX 480 and all 3 Fury variants are supported by it, with older GPU having to rely on Noveau and the Steam work around.

Basically, unless you have cards that are supported by the AMD official open source driver, then you get this problem:
http://askubuntu.com/questions/763382/steam-on-ubuntu-16-04-and-amd-driver
 

Meaning that you need to use the work around in the second post in this topic:
http://askubuntu.com/questions/635851/error-in-installing-steam-on-ubuntu-15-04
 

Edit: Compatibility got expanded, but you either use the work around or your shit out of luck
http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/AMDGPU-PRO-Driver-for-Linux-Release-Notes.aspx

[NumLock21]

It's just searching for updates are not working. Not that you can manually download and install it yourself.

Also qualcomm? So windows can run on ARM now? MS did showed off a demo of that running on server 2016. But that was a internal version, not the ones out in the market.

[Aphexxis]

I always wondered how large Bill Gates penis was, now i know.

[79wjd]

5 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

@djdwosk97
Stop defending MS and their idiocy.

Win8.1 mainstream support which means it should support the new CPU's, they flat out blocked all updates which begs for a class action lawsuit.

 

Win7 is on extended which means security updates only, regardless of the hardware. Flat out blocked all updates again.

 

Now then MS just proves once again that they cant be trusted  .

Where does it say that "mainstream support" should support any new cpu that launches? What if x86 was replaced over night with a radically different instruction set? Would you expect Microsoft to make W7/8/10 compatible with it? I surely wouldn't. Of course, Kaby Lake isn't radically different, but the point still stands, AFAIK Microsoft NEVER said that "mainstream" or "extended" support covers yet to be released hardware. 

 

You can disagree with their decision, but at the end of the day, they have every right to not support KL/Zen on W7/8.1 unless it specifically says they will support any/all hardware (including future hardware). And again, it's not like this wasn't seen coming a mile away. Over a year ago Microsoft said that Skylake would only be supported on W10, and then before Kaby Lake even launched it was made clear that Kaby Lake would not be supported on W7/8.1. Anyone who bought a Kaby Lake CPU withthe intention of using it on W7/W8.1 did so knowing that fact. 

[Delicieuxz]

15 hours ago, Drak3 said:

OEM licenses are not transferable. Retail licenses are transferable so many times, which I believe is 10 for Windows 7.

Retail licenses have no restriction on the number of times they can be transferred.

[Delicieuxz]

As I said in another thread in the news section, Microsoft's action to restrict extended support for Windows 7 owners who have newer CPUs is definitively illegal, because the exclusion of certain hardware constitutes a modification to the original contract terms for Windows 7, and there is no contract modification right claimed in the original Windows 7 EULA - which means that Microsoft never reserved that right for their side, and therefore does not possess it.

 

Quote

Windows 7 was still being sold when it was advertised that its extended support end-date would be January 2020, and when there was nothing expressed or indicating that buying a new CPU would interfere with receiving extended support. The efforted exclusion of newer CPUs from that extended support is an arbitrarily added condition by Microsoft.
 
The reasonable person test applies, as do contract laws, and it could be said that adding a condition to the advertised extended support date is a breach of contract, and false advertising, violating the terms that existing at the time most people bought Windows 7 - and contract terms cannot be changed unilaterally by one side without the right to do so being a part of the original contract that was agreed to. No such clause exists in the original Windows 7 EULA, or the Windows 7 SP1 EULA. Therefore, Microsoft cannot unilaterally make any changes to the Windows 7 usage terms, including by putting any restrictions on which hardware is eligible to receive extended support updates.
 
So, what Microsoft is doing is definitively illegal, but there might need to be someone willing to challenge it in court for there to be an enforcement of Microsoft's contractual obligations.

 

So, we can skip the apologism for Microsoft in this matter, because they have no justification for move. It's just typical psychopathic behaviour, ignoring all rules and fairness in pursuit of selfish want.

[jagdtigger]

49 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Where does it say that "mainstream support" should support any new cpu that launches? What if x86 was replaced over night with a radically different instruction set? Would you expect Microsoft to make W7/8/10 compatible with it? I surely wouldn't. Of course, Kaby Lake isn't radically different, but the point still stands, AFAIK Microsoft NEVER said that "mainstream" or "extended" support covers yet to be released hardware. 

 

You can disagree with their decision, but at the end of the day, they have every right to not support KL/Zen on W7/8.1 unless it specifically says they will support any/all hardware (including future hardware). And again, it's not like this wasn't seen coming a mile away. Over a year ago Microsoft said that Skylake would only be supported on W10, and then before Kaby Lake even launched it was made clear that Kaby Lake would not be supported on W7/8.1. Anyone who bought a Kaby Lake CPU withthe intention of using it on W7/W8.1 did so knowing that fact. 

Oh man, then mainstream is basically just a fancy name for support.... Thats kind of a lame thing.

 

Now then onto the actual problem. They wont support HW officially, okay, then dont implement the new functions. But flat out blocking all updates on a PC bcause it has  a "new gen" CPU(in reality 6th gen == 7th gen, aside from very minor differences which wont cause any compatibility problems) is just a blatant breach of contract. MS is committed  to support both win7 and 8.1 5+5 years. Win 7 support ends in 2020 and 8.1 in 2023. MS is obligated to provide full updates for 8.1 and security only for win7 regardless of HW configuration! People bought both OS with these conditions, expecting MS to  honor its word and really provide it.

Now they proven that its a horrible mistake to trust in them.

[79wjd]

21 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Now then onto the actual problem. They wont support HW officially, okay, then dont implement the new functions. But flat out blocking all updates on a PC bcause it has  a "new gen" CPU(in reality 6th gen == 7th gen, aside from very minor differences which wont cause any compatibility problems) is just a blatant breach of contract.

Yes, Microsoft could easily support Kaby Lake on W7/W8, but think about Zen or other future CPUs. It's possible they would become significantly different than previous generation CPUs. So you (Microsoft) have to ask yourself, at what point does it no longer make sense, financially, to invest in supporting an aging product. Any update for a Skylake system would have to be validated before being pushed out to a Kaby Lake system. The two CPUs might be very similar, but there still are difference that would require a level of validation to be done -- a validation that would cost more money that it is worth. 

32 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

MS is obligated to provide full updates for 8.1 and security only for win7 regardless of HW configuration!

Where does it say that? And I would still argue that that only applies to hardware that was available at the time -- again, you can't expect Microsoft to update Windows 8.1 to support a radically different instruction set -- so a line must clearly exist somewhere. 

35 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

People bought both OS with these conditions, expecting MS to  honor its word and really provide it.

Now they proven that its a horrible mistake to trust in them.

I disagree, most people buy a copy of windows with the intention of using it on that specific device. Hell, most people on these forums end up buying an OEM license, which technically aren't even allowed to be used on a different motherboard -- even on the same platform. 

[Delicieuxz]

27 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Where does it say that?

Microsoft advertised Windows life-cycles as being until certain dates for mainstream support, and for other further certain dates for extended support. So, those dates are established. Since there was no inclusion of limitations in those long-advertised support-cycle dates at the time of all Windows 7 and 8 sales, and because there is no reserved right to change the terms of agreement in those OSes EULAs, it is also established that Microsoft is obligated to adhere to the binding terms, without change.

 

You should be posing the question of "Where does it say that?" to Microsoft's new unilateral decision to obstruct updates for certain hardware - a condition that doesn't exist in the Windows 7 or 8 EULAs, and therefore isn't a legal change to the straight-forward promise of support for those OSes until their end of their service-cycles.

 

Quote

And I would still argue that that only applies to hardware that was available at the time -- again, you can't expect Microsoft to update Windows 8.1 to support a radically different instruction set -- so a line must clearly exist somewhere.

Where does it say that? If it isn't in the agreed-to terms, you might as well be posing an argument that Microsoft owes every Windows license-owner a million dollars for Microsoft's being stupid.

 

Also, jadtdigger didn't say that Microsoft should update Windows 8.1 with support for new CPU features, but that Microsoft is obligated to provide the updates they release for Windows 8.1 to 8.1 systems, regardless of what hardware people are running Windows 8.1 on.

[Centurius]

25 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Yes, Microsoft could easily support Kaby Lake on W7/W8, but think about Zen or other future CPUs. It's possible they would become significantly different than previous generation CPUs. So you (Microsoft) have to ask yourself, at what point does it no longer make sense, financially, to invest in supporting an aging product. Any update for a Skylake system would have to be validated before being pushed out to a Kaby Lake system. The two CPUs might be very similar, but there still are difference that would require a level of validation to be done -- a validation that would cost more money that it is worth. 

 

The thing is they don't, they can outright state "Look, we're not going to validate if it works on Kaby Lake or Ryzen, if it doesn't you won't get support". That, while scummy, is still acceptable and would be no cost. Actively making an update unusable on those systems though is in fact ADDING work and cost.

[79wjd]

1 hour ago, Delicieuxz said:

Microsoft advertised Windows life-cycles as being until certain dates for mainstream support, and for other further certain dates for extended support. So, those dates are established. Since there was no inclusion of limitations in those long-advertised support-cycle dates at the time of all Windows 7 and 8 sales, and because there is no reserved right to change the terms of agreement in those OSes EULAs, it is also established that Microsoft is obligated to adhere to the binding terms, without change.

 

You should be posing the question of "Where does it say that?" to Microsoft's new unilateral decision to obstruct updates for certain hardware - a condition that doesn't exist in the Windows 7 or 8 EULAs, and therefore isn't a legal change to the straight-forward promise of support for those OSes until their end of their service-cycles.

 

Where does it say that? If it isn't in the agreed-to terms, you might as well be posing an argument that Microsoft owes every Windows license-owner a million dollars for Microsoft's being stupid.

 

Also, jadtdigger didn't say that Microsoft should update Windows 8.1 with support for new CPU features, but that Microsoft is obligated to provide the updates they release for Windows 8.1 to 8.1 systems, regardless of what hardware people are running Windows 8.1 on.

So since Microsoft doesn't explicitly say otherwise, should I be pissed at Microsoft for not allowing me to install w8.1 on my iPod touch from 2008?

 

Except I wouldn't consider kaby lake a Windows 8.1 system since kaby lake didn't exist at that time and didn't exist until windows 10 superceded it.

1 hour ago, Centurius said:

The thing is they don't, they can outright state "Look, we're not going to validate if it works on Kaby Lake or Ryzen, if it doesn't you won't get support". That, while scummy, is still acceptable and would be no cost. Actively making an update unusable on those systems though is in fact ADDING work and cost.

They're blocking the update so that it can't cause potential problems since it's not validated.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, djdwosk97 said:

So since Microsoft doesn't explicitly say otherwise, should I be pissed at Microsoft for not allowing me to install w8.1 on my iPod touch from 2008?

 

Except I wouldn't consider kaby lake a Windows 8.1 system since kaby lake didn't exist at that time and didn't exist until windows 10 superceded it.

They're blocking the update so that it can't cause potential problems since it's not validated.

Bad argument, we are talking about systems that already running a version of windows(proving that it can be run on those and without issues AFAIK), and since the "new" CPU's from intel are simply re badged(and added dumb drm which isnt a feature in my view). Plus Ryzen is proven pretty stable on win7, and in reality its beaten microsofts newest spyware in tests.

 

The only problem caused by allowing these systems update is that MS not getting any data from them. They want everyone on win10 so they can sell our lives to ad agencies. But you and the rest of the sheep herd always come in and defend their illegal stunts. I think this quote will fit in here very nicely:

 

You can link all the tinfoil image you like. But it wont change the fact that what MS is doing is worse than wrong and very dangerous.

Edited March 18, 2017 by jagdtigger

[Centurius]

1 hour ago, djdwosk97 said:

So since Microsoft doesn't explicitly say otherwise, should I be pissed at Microsoft for not allowing me to install w8.1 on my iPod touch from 2008?

 

Except I wouldn't consider kaby lake a Windows 8.1 system since kaby lake didn't exist at that time and didn't exist until windows 10 superceded it.

They're blocking the update so that it can't cause potential problems since it's not validated.

No you shouldn't because your iPod touch from 2008 doesn't fulfil the system requirements provided for Windows 8.1 at launch(primarily the lack of a x86 cpu or directx 9 compatible gpu). Any system that does should expect them though.

 

The risk of potential problems is something that the individual consumer should decide whether they find the benefits worth the associated risks. Especially made easy as Windows 7 and 8 still allow you to disable updates. We also both know that's not why Microsoft is doing this. Their pathetic excuse of an OS is losing ground so they want to force people onto that platform rather than making the changes that would make people want to jump over.

[GoodBytes]

Ok here is the thing. And let's be honest:

1. Windows 7 support for new features/bug fixes has past. It is on extended support. Which means security updates only.
2. Windows 8.1 is still on new feature/bug update support. Until Jan 9, 2018.
3. Kaby Lake and Ryzen both don't work to its full abilities (and therefore: not properly) under Windows 7 and 8.1. So you want Windows 10 in any case.
4. But that said, while Windows 7 should be EXPECTED to have NO support for Kaby Lake and Ryzen, Windows 8.1 SHOULD have it as it is very much supported, and that means that it SHOULD work fine under that OS.

Microsoft is correct and should be acceptable to block these CPUs under Windows 7. But not under Windows 8.1. Why? It in Microsoft rights to ensure the best experience out of their system. So as Windows 7 is out of the mainstream support, to ensure the best experience, the new CPUs are block from updates. Windows 8.1 doesn't.

 

Does it affect most people?

• No does it not. People use the OS that comes with their system and keep it that way. Even if a new Windows is given to them for free, they won't upgrade (see Windows 10 free upgrade offer. See Windows 7 40$-50$ upgrade offers). They have this mentality of: I don't want to touch anything, it works. We have has the EXACT same problem with Service Packs. People don't want to get the latest Service Pack, because "it works". Many of these systems are compromised without the user knowing, and are used to spread viruses, malware, and part od DDOS attacks due to them being remotely controlled. (Not helped with the fact that many of them have A/V that are disabled because their trial period fro when they bought the system ended). But that is a whole different topic. But you can see why Windows is pushing so hard for forced updates in Windows 10. The question: Should Microsoft sale even bother selling retail version of Windows is always asked at every new version of Windows. Because they count for a very small fraction of sales.

Does it affect most power user?

• No it does not. Most people here run OEM license of Windows, and most people here, when they get a new computer, they want everything new, that includes OS.

Does it affect most companies?

• Yes, it does. Forcing Windows 10 on these new CPUs, forces companies to actually evaluate and consider upgrading to Windows 10. And not just keep Windows 7, because the IT manager is scared that he/she will lose his/her job if someone was forgotten to be tested, like some odd feature in some custom software stops working, but some employee complains. At least, for these insecure people, and not knowledgeable superior of them, have a business case to justify any downtime now. "We need to upgrade to Windows 10 for our new computers, else we have no support for Windows 7, and therefore open to security issues, especially that we can't update Windows 7 to anything above stock SP1 'cause that is what the disk comes with (split stream should require full system re-image at every updates, so every Tuesday... costs too much". And yes, in big companies, if you don't have a business case, good luck getting anything moving. Do you work in a big company try the following: Suggest a paying software, suggest a better monitor than your shitty non adjustable TN panel on VGA given to you, suggest an SSD in your computer if you don't have one. Beside the fact of you need your manager approval, which can be easy to difficult, anything above it will be very hard, as the reaction will always be: "Sure! BUUUUttt What will that bring as additional revenue to the company?". Smaller companies tend to not have this problem, as they know they can't compete with salary, and other benefits from larger ones, so ensuring the satisfaction of every employee is critical. Some employee want a 4K 27inch true 8-bit IPS monitor, an SSD, and new version of some software for his job? No problem, order will be placed under 24h. All you need to do is mention it to your manager who will see if it can fit in the companies budget. But, most large companies run on many Windows systems, and those affect market share.

 

There. Can we all know go to sleep?

 

[zMeul]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

And let's be honest:

that's you being honest?! HA!

1. no reason to block hardware; were you able to install it on Kaby, good for you if not who cares? security updates are not/should not be HW locked
2. true! and from what I'm understanding MS has extended support for W7, just not quite publicly acknowledging it
3. I won't speak for Ryzen, but Kaby's problems in W7 are the same of Skylake's problem in W7 plus no iGPU drivers - and that's Intel's problem and not MS' !!!!!
4. support doesn't mean you won't receive updates; and I expect MS to have some legal battles because W8(.1) is still in the mainstream support window

does it affect people?! yeah it does! I have bought, like many many others W8.1 FPP and if I plan to upgrade my HW anytime I should basically toss that licence out of the fucking window

 

there is no precedent for this! no one who bought FPP licences for W7/8/8.1 should've expected this behavior from MS

 

you and the others, are fucking disgusting in the way you find excuses for MS

[jagdtigger]

25 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

1. But that said, while Windows 7 should be EXPECTED to have NO support for Kaby Lake and Ryzen, Windows 8.1 SHOULD have it as it is very much supported, and that means that it SHOULD work fine under that OS.

 

 

It is not. Win 7 expected to get security fixes regardless of hardware(i actually checked the life cycle FAQ and there is no clause for HW restrictions).

[LAwLz]

Microsoft could be eating babies for fun and people would still defend them...

Facts are facts. Windows 7 and 8.1 are still under support. Even if you don't think Windows 7 should get updates it is a real scummy move to block Windows 8.1 which is still covered by the mainstream support. Microsoft is flat out just not following their own contracts here.

But I think everyone, even the people in the Microsoft Defence Force, knows deep down that this is something Microsoft are doing just to benefit themselves and hurt consumers. I saw someone saying Microsoft is just trying to prevent forest fires. Yeah, they mighty be trying to prevent fires, and while cutting down the entire forest with a chainsaw is one method of preventing fires, it does just as much damage. It is not justifiable.

 

They are literally spending time and money to cripple the products of their own customers. They are spending their own resources, to punish their own customers. How anyone can be OK with this is beyond me.

"Ohh but they just don't want to validate updates for those processors anymore!". Microsoft has never tested every single update for every single processor before. That's why you would never see a message like this even if you were to run Windows XP on a Skylake CPU.

 

Does Microsoft literally have to put guns to peoples' heads before people will go "oh, maybe Microsoft are just assholes and want to force people to Windows 10 no matter what."? Because I can not think of any other reason why they would do this, other than wanting to force people to Windows 10. And say what you want about Windows 10, like it or dislike it if you want, but strongly dislike Microsoft's philosophy of treating their customers like shit for their own benefits. People should have a choice of what OS to use, and terminating security updates before the support period is over is a method I despise.

 

I hope Microsoft gets sued into oblivion soon. I want a court to slap them so hard on the wrist their entire hands fall off. Because right now they do not care whatsoever about their customers. They have gone from a pretty decent company, to one of the most evil and consumer hating companies I have ever seen.

I am surprised that the EU or some other organization haven't told them to fuck off with their pure evil schemes yet.