MicroSoft is actively blocking W7/8/8.1 Windows Updates on KabyLake and Ryzen systems

[vanished]

5 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

Really? That's literally the only reason one can have to not upgrade to Windows 10? Did you forget for instance, the fact that is not fucking free anymore?

Wait, what reason did you think I specified?  Because I specifically didn't.  I know everyone has different reasons they hate it and and I was simply saying the people who aren't using it have one (or more) reasons.  By contrast, I seem to be one of the few who is fine with it so far.

10 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

This is where I point out that they wanted to do this (topic at hand) with Skylake and it failed epicly.

Tbh that seems to support my point.  They've tried this before, thus, this is totally in character for them.

[Misanthrope]

12 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Well, I can't say I'm surprised.  I'm sure there will always be back alley hacks and tricks people can do to get updates on older systems if they try hard enough, but this is sure to annoy a lot of people - probably the ones that already dislike them for one reason or another, especially since it only affects those not using Win 10, which only people with a bone to pick avoid.

 

 

Quote

Wait, what reason did you think I specified?  Because I specifically didn't.  I know everyone has different reasons they hate it and and I was simply saying the people who aren't using it have one (or more) reasons.  By contrast, I seem to be one of the few who is fine with it so far.

 

So as above "especially since it only affects those not using Win 10, Which only people with a bone to pick avoid"

 

Your own words as in the first time I quoted you: please stop hiding behind this "when did I say this?" If you made a mistake and overreached with your implications state so, but I didn't misrepresented you you clearly said "Which only people with a bone to pick avoid" when talking about who is not using Windows 10.

 

You didn't presented your post as if you knew people have other reasons, you just basically conflated anyone not on Windows 10 already as an Anti-Microsoft troll and now want to back pedal out of it making it seem like I am misrepresenting you which is extremely intellectually dishonest.

[vanished]

16 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

So as above "especially since it only affects those not using Win 10, Which only people with a bone to pick avoid"

 

Your own words as in the first time I quoted you: please stop hiding behind this "when did I say this?" If you made a mistake and overreached with your implications state so, but I didn't misrepresented you you clearly said "Which only people with a bone to pick avoid" when talking about who is not using Windows 10.

 

You didn't presented your post as if you knew people have other reasons, you just basically conflated anyone not on Windows 10 already as an Anti-Microsoft troll and now want to back pedal out of it making it seem like I am misrepresenting you which is extremely intellectually dishonest.

Now you're really overreacting.  If I actually made a mistake, I'll admit it, but as far as I can tell so far I have not.  I asked you to point out where I did but instead you just came back with this.  I'm honestly kind of at a loss for explanation how you've made the jump from the first few comments to what you're accusing me of here.

[Misanthrope]

2 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Now you're really overreacting.  If I actually made a mistake, I'll admit it, but as far as I can tell so far I have not.  I asked you to point out where I did but instead you just came back with this.  I'm honestly kind of at a loss for explanation how you've made the jump from the first few comments to what you're accusing me of here.

You asked me to point it out, and I literally pointed out you said "Only" and the context of your reply clearly implies that only anti Microsoft people stay on older versions.

 

You're basically lying at this point.

[cj09beira]

36 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

The x86 family is not one where a standard template for core design is used, AMD and Intel use different implementations, that can break stability and compatibility.

 

Yes, x86 code developed for the first processor will (barely) work on what we have now.

But, that doesn't mean it will be rock solid stable. That doesn't mean it will use the new processor correctly at all, due to the vastly different optimizations and implementations.

 

An OS booting =/= reason to waste time and money validating it on new hardware, for the few idiots that pretend they'd install an OS that can only be bought via older OEM machines and refurb OEM COAs on the newest hardware.

1 there are many people that dont buy a new os each time they upgrade there machine.

2 optimizations/implementations means nothing to something working. and as long as the os can address each core theres no reason to believe it will not work there might be performance issues but thats to be expected.

3 it will not work just barely, it would work just fine unless it uses some obscure instruction that isn't supported

[vanished]

11 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

You asked me to point it out, and I literally pointed out you said "Only" and the context of your reply clearly implies that only anti Microsoft people stay on older versions.

 

You're basically lying at this point.

You're extrapolating "only anti Microsoft people" and "Anti-Microsoft troll" from "only people with a bone to pick".  I don't even know what to say... I think this speaks for itself.  Yes, my comment could include them, but it could (and does) also include people who don't like Windows 10 because of how it handles updates, or because of the ads, or because the don't like the look, etc. etc. etc.  Literally anything.

 

If you can find people who don't use Windows 10 "just cuz", I'll take back what I said.  So far all you've done is call me dishonest and a liar.

[Drak3]

39 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

1 there are many people that dont buy a new os each time they upgrade there machine.

2 optimizations/implementations means nothing to something working. and as long as the os can address each core theres no reason to believe it will not work there might be performance issues but thats to be expected.

3 it will not work just barely, it would work just fine unless it uses some obscure instruction that isn't supported

1. Windows requires reactivation upon a platform change, addressing those upgrading from pre-Z170 systems. Unless one is an idiot, seeking a specific feature of Kaby lake (4K Netflix is a Windows 10 exclusive without hacking anyways), or is a competitive overclocker, they're not going to waste money and time moving from Skylake to Kaby Lake.

 

2. Yes it does. Barely working means that the code will run with even a small success rate. Optimizations can improve that dramatically, as seen in the early Vista days when Vista was having massive problems being ran on hardware optimized for Windows XP. Implementation can make or break a system, or determine if it's being used correctly (and taking serious hits in performance if it isn't), with Bulldozer's CMT being a prime example of it.

 

3. Windows 7 and 8 do not work as well on Kaby Lake as they din on Skylake, Haswell, or Broadwell, upon initial release of the architecture or the OS, whichever came first. To say that either OS worked as well as they did a mere 2 or 3 months in would be lying.

 

 

[cj09beira]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

1. Windows requires reactivation upon a platform change, addressing those upgrading from pre-Z170 systems. Unless one is an idiot, seeking a specific feature of Kaby lake (4K Netflix is a Windows 10 exclusive without hacking anyways), or is a competitive overclocker, they're not going to waste money and time moving from Skylake to Kaby Lake.

 

2. Yes it does. Barely working means that the code will run with even a small success rate. Optimizations can improve that dramatically, as seen in the early Vista days when Vista was having massive problems being ran on hardware optimized for Windows XP. Implementation can make or break a system, or determine if it's being used correctly (and taking serious hits in performance if it isn't), with Bulldozer's CMT being a prime example of it.

 

3. Windows 7 and 8 do not work as well on Kaby Lake as they din on Skylake, Haswell, or Broadwell, upon initial release of the architecture or the OS, whichever came first. To say that either OS worked as well as they did a mere 2 or 3 months in would be lying.

 

 

i did not say it was from skylake did i? (who would do such a thing)

more like going from ivy/haswell to ryzen/kaby.

where is the small success rate. kaby is just skylake theres no reason whatsoever for there to be problems 

 

[Drak3]

Just now, cj09beira said:

i did not say it was from skylake did i? (who would do such a thing)

more like going from ivy/haswell to ryzen/kaby.

where is the small success rate. kaby is just skylake theres no reason whatsoever for there to be problems 

 

I addressed those moving from platforms older than Skylake. It's literally the first sentence.

 

Also, While I'll happily joke and say Kaby Lake is just Skylake with a small OC, it's a bit more than that. It's a feature update, refinement, and bug fix of Skylake. There is enough difference between the two sub-architectures to require separate validation.

 

To separately validate running an OS that is not sold via retail, and only sold on Skylake as the newest platform from OEM, on a platform that doesn't even officially support the OS, when mainstream support has ended (despite the fact that mainstream support doesn't actually include compatibility updates for the newest hardware to come out anyways), would be a waste of money and time on Microsoft's part. They're at the point where Windows 7 doesn't make them money anymore, and they're not in business to lose money or serve holdouts that aren't customers anymore.

 

And to validate Windows 8/8.1, which saw poor adoption outside of low end machines, and isn't even sold by OEMs or retail (with the only exception being extra stock any stores have), would still be a waste of time and money.

[samcool55]

Actually quite ironic tbh.

You on W7 with ryzen or KB? No more updates for you!

You on W10? Eat updates you little sh*t if you like it or not!

 

I'm like, what the f. Seriously.

 

Also, once i get ryzen, i'll try XP on it, just to check if there's any truth in the "we can't support ryzen on anything except W10" BS.

My guess is it's BS and ryzen works fine on XP.

[JoostinOnline]

6 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

Cops usually warn their victims to "STOP!" before they shoot em to death. Still is often unjustified and manslaughter or homicide.

You're an idiot.  I never said this was okay.  I just said we've known about it.

[Master Disaster]

4 hours ago, samcool55 said:

They are also dropping support for it on W8.1 which has still mainstream support until 2018 which means it's on the same support level as W10.

So ignoring W7, it's still a BS move and clearly designed to force people to W10...

 

There is no reason to not support a 3-4 year old OS, keeping in mind W10 is atm 1.5 years old.

They're not dropping support for anything, they're not supporting an unsupported configuration.

 

Look at it this way (you guys love your car analogies)...

 

If, 4 years ago you bought a Porsche when it was brand new with a 10 year warranty then after 4 years decided to swap the engine for an engine from the 2017 Porsche and it didn't work out for you. Would you be ringing Porsche up expecting them to fix your issues under the warranty?

 

Your support from Microsoft is under a license and included in that license is an agreement that MS can decide to not support future hardware at their discretion and its there for a very good reason. Let's say (hypothetical of course) that they did support KL & Zen. User builds a Zen system and installs 7, system works great and all is well. After x days 7 decides to auto update itself and one of the, by now 7 year old updates doesn't work properly on Zen and causes a BSOD. User rings MS support for help... What are they supposed to say exactly? We're sorry sir but we never got around to retesting every single update we ever released for our 7 year old OS to make sure it works with your 2 week CPU?

 

I'm sure there's a pretty mad panic right now as MS rush to ensure all of their existing Windows 10 updates play nicely with Zen, you really can't expect them to do the same for 7 & 8.

 

I will admit that KL isn't exactly the same story, SL support is already in place so dropping KL is a little odd but then again its something Intel & MS have chosen to do and there's not much we can say or do to change that. It is at their discretion after all. Maybe they decided that since they were already cutting off Zen it made sense to do the same with KL.

[Dylanc1500]

12 minutes ago, samcool55 said:

Actually quite ironic tbh.

You on W7 with ryzen or KB? No more updates for you!

You on W10? Eat updates you little sh*t if you like it or not!

 

I'm like, what the f. Seriously.

 

Also, once i get ryzen, i'll try XP on it, just to check if there's any truth in the "we can't support ryzen on anything except W10" BS.

My guess is it's BS and ryzen works fine on XP.

Some how it can run DOS 6.22 natively. As I said earlier, we have a client that is doing so. At least kaby lake can.

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

55 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

They're at the point where Windows 7 doesn't make them money anymore, and they're not in business to lose money or serve holdouts that aren't customers anymore.

The people who paid for Windows 7, did so expecting it to be supported until 2020.  That means security updates regardless of hardware until the EoL date.  No ifs, no buts.

 

As for 8.1's poor adoption, that's a BS excuse and you know it full well.  Sticking with the popular car analogies, it would be the same as a car manufacturer giving 5 years of warranty on a certain model and then 3 years later say "well, we didn't sell as many of that model as we liked so we're now refusing to repair them or even change the (proprietary) spark plugs.  Customers will have to buy a new car from us"

 

[jagdtigger]

9 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

They're not dropping support for anything, they're not supporting an unsupported configuration.

 

Look at it this way (you guys love your car analogies)...

 

If, 4 years ago you bought a Porsche when it was brand new with a 10 year warranty then after 4 years decided to swap the engine for an engine from the 2017 Porsche and it didn't work out for you. Would you be ringing Porsche up expecting them to fix your issues under the warranty?

 

Your support from Microsoft is under a license and included in that license is an agreement that MS can decide to not support future hardware at their discretion and its there for a very good reason. Let's say (hypothetical of course) that they did support KL & Zen. User builds a Zen system and installs 7, system works great and all is well. After x days 7 decides to auto update itself and one of the, by now 7 year old updates doesn't work properly on Zen and causes a BSOD. User rings MS support for help... What are they supposed to say exactly? We're sorry sir but we never got around to retesting every single update we ever released for our 7 year old OS to make sure it works with your 2 week CPU?

 

I'm sure there's a pretty mad panic right now as MS rush to ensure all of their existing Windows 10 updates play nicely with Zen, you really can't expect them to do the same for 7 & 8.

 

I will admit that KL isn't exactly the same story, SL support is already in place so dropping KL is a little odd but then again its something Intel & MS have chosen to do and there's not much we can say or do to change that. It is at their discretion after all. Maybe they decided that since they were already cutting off Zen it made sense to do the same with KL.

In case of 8.1 one we can and we have every right to do so. They promised full support until 2018 January.... Plus win7 is extended which means security only but there is nothing in the TOS or EULA about hardware could deprive you from the right to get those "security"* updates.

 

*In reality its more like a black box so i have a hard time calling them security updates.

[Drak3]

Just now, Captain Chaos said:

The people who paid for Windows 7, did so expecting it to be supported until 2020.  That means security updates regardless of hardware until the EoL date.  No ifs, no buts.

 

As for 8.1's poor adoption, that's a BS excuse and you know it full well.  Sticking with the popular car analogies, it would be the same as a car manufacturer giving 5 years of warranty on a certain model and then 3 years later say "well, we didn't sell as many of that model as we liked so we're now refusing to repair them or even change the (proprietary) spark plugs.  Customers will have to buy a new car from us"

Had they actually read the 'warranty' for 7 or 8, and they'd know that new hardware configurations are not covered under mainstream support. This is consumer idiocracy fucking itself, not Microsoft fucking them over.

 

Especially when Intel and AMD both stated that Kaby and Ryzen would not support older than Windows 10, and Microsoft stated that they would not support older than 10 on the new architectures.

 

The cut and dry version is that idiots are bitching about a scenario that realistically isn't happening, because they're too fucking stupid to actually acknowledge that the hardware not supporting or being supported by 7/8 means nothing Microsoft does regarding Windows 7 or 8 is even going to touch the new hardware, and they're being responsible enough to not allow updates that could potentially brick new systems that even coincidentally use either architecture.

 

Also, your car analogy doesn't work here. At best, it'd be "car X didn't sell well, and we're going to refuse to repair those that had their engines replaced because that isn't and was never covered by our warranty, we're not going to entertain the idea further. Those that run it under warranty conditions are still welcome to come to us for repair."

[samcool55]

18 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

They're not dropping support for anything, they're not supporting an unsupported configuration.

 

Look at it this way (you guys love your car analogies)...

 

If, 4 years ago you bought a Porsche when it was brand new with a 10 year warranty then after 4 years decided to swap the engine for an engine from the 2017 Porsche and it didn't work out for you. Would you be ringing Porsche up expecting them to fix your issues under the warranty?

 

Your support from Microsoft is under a license and included in that license is an agreement that MS can decide to not support future hardware at their discretion and its there for a very good reason. Let's say (hypothetical of course) that they did support KL & Zen. User builds a Zen system and installs 7, system works great and all is well. After x days 7 decides to auto update itself and one of the, by now 7 year old updates doesn't work properly on Zen and causes a BSOD. User rings MS support for help... What are they supposed to say exactly? We're sorry sir but we never got around to retesting every single update we ever released for our 7 year old OS to make sure it works with your 2 week CPU?

 

I'm sure there's a pretty mad panic right now as MS rush to ensure all of their existing Windows 10 updates play nicely with Zen, you really can't expect them to do the same for 7 & 8.

 

I will admit that KL isn't exactly the same story, SL support is already in place so dropping KL is a little odd but then again its something Intel & MS have chosen to do and there's not much we can say or do to change that. It is at their discretion after all. Maybe they decided that since they were already cutting off Zen it made sense to do the same with KL.

Well microsoft here is actually the software that runs on the ECU and only responsible for that part, not the entire car because that's up to you.

And ryzen at this point works fine on W7, actually even better than W10 by a decent margin. But again they are also dropping support for W8.1 which is 3-4 years old. Not a big difference between W10 which is 1.5 years old AND it's on the same support level.

 

To put it in a car comparison it would be like you bought a car with no software let's say 3 years ago. You got W8.1 that gets full support until 2018, great. In 2017 you decide to replace the engine, fine. Suddenly your software won't update anymore and you must have W10, the latest version that's on the SAME support level. Why would they even do that?

 

If they say software A gets support level A until 2018 and software B gets support level A until 2020 (i checked it). Why would they say "yeah software A is a bit too old and even tho it's on support level A we don't care". That's quite a anti-consumer and just BS move.

 

Honestly, i'm wondering what the business people think of this.

The only reason they can do this is because Linux isn't a good enough alternative for everyone, yet. But once Linux is a worthy replacement, people will switch and MS can f*ck off honestly.

[porina]

I just fired up my Ryzen Win7 test install and can confirm, at least for now, I can check for and get updates. Note I have NOT installed any optional updates to the WU system which add no user value as all they do is add telemetry and other crapware. I don't know or care if it might be hidden in there somewhere.

 

I've been debating if I should buy a new Win10 licence, or recycle an old Win7 one for my Ryzen system. This thread is strongly steering me towards Win7...

 

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Had they actually read the 'warranty' for 7 or 8, and they'd know that new hardware configurations are not covered under mainstream support. This is consumer idiocracy fucking itself, not Microsoft fucking them over.

Had the warranty been written in a human language rather than legalese and taken less long to read than all the books in the Library of Congress combined, perhaps people would indeed read it. 

 

That aside, I have read the entire EULA and warranty statement for my retail Win7 Pro install (and read it a second time just now to make sure) and it doesn't ever mention hardware upgrades.  I know that "alternative facts" are all the rage these days, but let's keep those in political discussions please.

[Master Disaster]

32 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

In case of 8.1 one we can and we have every right to do so. They promised full support until 2018 January.... Plus win7 is extended which means security only but there is nothing in the TOS or EULA about hardware could deprive you from the right to get those "security"* updates.

 

*In reality its more like a black box so i have a hard time calling them security updates.

Since Microsoft support is tied to a non transferrable license and neither Kabylake nor Zen existed when 8 launched I'm fairly sure MS have a pretty airtight case in refusing to offer 8 users support for Zen & KL CPUs.

 

How exactly are you running 8 on a Zen system if you didn't transfer your license from another machine?

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

1 minute ago, Master Disaster said:

How exactly are you running 8 on a Zen system if you didn't transfer your license from another machine?

Oh come on!  Seriously? 

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=windows 8.1 retail&_dcat=11226&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=1000&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

 

How many brand new retail copies do you want?

[Belgarathian]

*cough* macOS.

[GoodBytes]

10 minutes ago, Captain Chaos said:

Oh come on!  Seriously? 

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=windows 8.1 retail&_dcat=11226&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=1000&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

 

How many brand new retail copies do you want?

That is not a major number of people. Extremely minor.

It is for more for companies to switch to Windows 10 instead of sticking to Windows 7. It is clear that Microsoft wants to avoid an XP.

[Master Disaster]

26 minutes ago, Captain Chaos said:

Oh come on!  Seriously? 

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=windows 8.1 retail&_dcat=11226&rt=nc&LH_ItemCondition=1000&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

 

How many brand new retail copies do you want?

You've obviously never worked in retail computing. Microsoft have a certified retailer program and they will not support a product purchased from a non certified retailer. FTR OEM licenses can only be sold with computer hardware (not necessarily a computer but at least hardware, I'm fairly sure they specify MOBO, CPU and/or HDD).

 

MS don't sell 8 anymore and buying a sealed copy from eBay is not the same as buying a new copy from a licensed retailer. They would want to know where your "new" copy of Windows came from and the second you say eBay they'd laugh so hard you'd still be able to hear them after you hung up the phone.

 

https://partner.microsoft.com/en-gb/licensing/become-a-licensing-reseller

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

1 hour ago, Master Disaster said:

You've obviously never worked in retail computing. Microsoft have a certified retailer program and they will not support a product purchased from a non certified retailer. FTR OEM licenses can only be sold with computer hardware (not necessarily a computer but at least hardware, I'm fairly sure they specify MOBO, CPU and/or HDD).

 

MS don't sell 8 anymore and buying a sealed copy from eBay is not the same as buying a new copy from a licensed retailer. They would want to know where your "new" copy of Windows came from and the second you say eBay they'd laugh so hard you'd still be able to hear them after you hung up the phone.

 

https://partner.microsoft.com/en-gb/licensing/become-a-licensing-reseller

 

I indeed have never worked in retail computing (only repair and systembuilding), but you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. 

 

Licensed retailer =/= licensing reseller, so that link has nothing to do with the paragraph above it.  Licensing resellers do volume licencing, they don't sell retail or even OEM copies.  

 

There isn't even such a thing as a "licensed retailer" or a "Microsoft certified retailer".  Retail copies of Windows can be sold in any store without a time limit (of course within EoL limits, MS of course doesn't have to provide support if you buy an unused retail copy of XP Home Edition today).  Microsoft just isn't providing new keys anymore when they stop selling the OS, but the ones that are out there are still valid until the end of extended support.

 

OEM copies can be sold anywhere too, but of course those may only be used by systembuilders for installation on PCs that get sold to customers.  Still, no limitation as to where those copies may be bought from.  Of course no systembuilder is going to put Win7 or 8.1 on Kaby systems anymore at this point, but people are still asking for it and it's getting annoying to have to explain time and time again that it's a bad idea because MS decided to be a bunch of pricks.  

 

Seeing as you mention making phone calls to MS, you also seem to be confusing "updates, bug fixes and patches for vulnerabilities" OS support with "My fresh Windows install doesn't want to activate" customer support.