Posted November 7, 2016 Greetings to all! So I have been working on something like this for awhile. First off I want to build a motherboard from scratch. Now before all the negative people start blowing up the comments section about how "You can't do this" or "Its not feasible", I know this is going to take time and money. I GET THAT! What I want to know is 1. What is needed to make a custom motherboard in a specific design and size (I need it to fit inside a tube smaller then a mac pro trash can but bigger then a water bottle, Thats for width and height but for length I'm thinking between 10" - 14".) 2. I need it to have a modern day CPU (Intel) along with a GPU (Maybe one from a macbook pro, if you have ever seen one) and also laptop ram or SO-DIM (I think thats the technical term for it.) I will worry about cooling later. 3. Through all this I want to learn how to make and build a motherboard and understand how it works! So time for what I have found on my adventure! I know you can use sights like this to make small PCB'S: https://easyeda.com But the problem with that is I have no idea what half the stuff on a motherboard means and does. (Hence why I have number 3.) So I need you guys to lead me and help me. I have a place to design it, I have the time, I have the money, Now I just need you guys to lead me in the right direction! Hopefully you guys will have fun with this as I hope to as well! -wiredbrother P.S (I am a engineer I create custom cases. I have been designing a new type of computer and it should be very cool. One of the things it will include is a flexible screen. Anyways I am off, See you guys soon!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 This is quite the endeavor! I have no idea, at all, but I wish you good luck! Please post updates if you decide to do this! Yes, it's 2871 as in the year 2871. I traveled all this way, back in time, just to help you. And you thought your mama lied when she said you were special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 Ability to draw straight lines Intel Xeon E5 1650 v3 @ 3.5GHz 6C:12T / CM212 Evo / Asus X99 Deluxe / 16GB (4x4GB) DDR4 3000 Trident-Z / Samsung 850 Pro 256GB / Intel 335 240GB / WD Red 2 & 3TB / Antec 850w / RTX 2070 / Win10 Pro x64 HP Envy X360 15: Intel Core i5 8250U @ 1.6GHz 4C:8T / 8GB DDR4 / Intel UHD620 + Nvidia GeForce MX150 4GB / Intel 120GB SSD / Win10 Pro x64 HP Envy x360 BP series Intel 8th gen AMD ThreadRipper 2! 5820K & 6800K 3-way SLI mobo support list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 A miracle. Most of the components would be okay, but good luck trying to get hold of a LGA 1151 socket for a 1-off order..? best thing to do would be to design it and then pay to have it printed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, wiredbrother said: -SNIP- You wouldn't be the first to ask this but as a single individual it wouldn't be feasible as it's not as simple as just some traces and sockets on a board. The hardest part would be engineering the traces as they aren't just an electrical paths, they must conform to certain lengths and sizes to ensure it the signals running through them are timed correctly but also so they don't have too much or too little resistance. If any of theses parameters are off they can render the board useless, and this is not looking into getting chipsets which I don't believe one can purchase off hand as single units. Updated Modding FAQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 ok first hurdle, how did you plan on making a 6 or so layer PCB? anyway go steal a blueprint on how a socket connecects up to the rest of the motherboard because you will need that, have fun making a custom BIOS for your board because a complete custom job will require a BIOS that can handle that. i would just go look at a pico ATX motherboard instead tbh I spent $2500 on building my PC and all i do with it is play no games atm & watch anime at 1080p(finally) watch YT and write essays... nothing, it just sits there collecting dust... Builds: The Toaster Project! Northern Bee! The original LAN PC build log! (Old, dead and replaced by The Toaster Project & 5.0) Spoiler "Here is some advice that might have gotten lost somewhere along the way in your life. #1. Treat others as you would like to be treated. #2. It's best to keep your mouth shut; and appear to be stupid, rather than open it and remove all doubt. #3. There is nothing "wrong" with being wrong. Learning from a mistake can be more valuable than not making one in the first place. Follow these simple rules in life, and I promise you, things magically get easier. " - MageTank 31-10-2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 Understanding basic principals of design, architecture, manufacturing ADVANCED understanding of electrical engineers and fabrication Dont forget, you will need to pay a several THOUSAND dollar licensing fee in any companies you plan to incorporate technologies into, such as Intel, and whatever company owns HDMI Roses are red My name is Roy We caught the alligator that ate the De Luca boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 1 minute ago, Belgarathian said: A miracle. Most of the components would be okay, but good luck trying to get hold of a LGA 1151 socket for a 1-off order..? best thing to do would be to design it and then pay to have it printed. you can just steal a socket from a motherboard lol I spent $2500 on building my PC and all i do with it is play no games atm & watch anime at 1080p(finally) watch YT and write essays... nothing, it just sits there collecting dust... Builds: The Toaster Project! Northern Bee! The original LAN PC build log! (Old, dead and replaced by The Toaster Project & 5.0) Spoiler "Here is some advice that might have gotten lost somewhere along the way in your life. #1. Treat others as you would like to be treated. #2. It's best to keep your mouth shut; and appear to be stupid, rather than open it and remove all doubt. #3. There is nothing "wrong" with being wrong. Learning from a mistake can be more valuable than not making one in the first place. Follow these simple rules in life, and I promise you, things magically get easier. " - MageTank 31-10-2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 I'm no ECE guy (although I know quite a few), but I know my University allows students to blueprint and manufacture custom PCBs. Perhaps check out institutions in your area? Main Rig: R9 5950X @ PBO, RTX 3090, 64 GB DDR4 3666, InWin 101, Full Hardline Watercooling Server: R7 1700X @ 4.0 GHz, GTX 1080 Ti, 32GB DDR4 3000, Cooler Master NR200P, Full Soft Watercooling LAN Rig: R5 3600X @ PBO, RTX 2070, 32 GB DDR4 3200, Dan Case A4-SFV V4, 120mm AIO for the CPU HTPC: i7-7700K @ 4.6 GHz, GTX 1050 Ti, 16 GB DDR4 3200, AliExpress K39, IS-47K Cooler Router: R3 2200G @ stock, 4GB DDR4 2400, what are cases, stock cooler I don't have a problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 If you want a manufacturer to at least consider building you a board, you need to have a PCB schematic for them, along with all of the parts and their numbers necessary to complete it. Also PCB schematics are of a standardized format, so you need the software that can save to that format. Aside from that, laying out a PCB isn't as simple as drawing lines from point A to B. You also have to consider the if the length of the traces affect the signal, if the traces are too close for the voltage, etc. For example, a colleague of mine deliberately added squiggly lines on one half of a differential signal trace because a straight shot would cause the signal to arrive earlier than its pair. Oh, and then there's the problem that you need to know the pinouts and such for any chips you use. In other words, it's like trying to get the Burj Khalifa built when you're a budding architect. If you want to get started on this, it's better to use a much simpler system, something like an Arduino or RaspPi. I have a blog! And a list of guides I've posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 I remember a blog post from a while back, where some guy did a step by step tutorial on how he create a simple circuit board from scratch. Can't remember that link. Intel Xeon E5 1650 v3 @ 3.5GHz 6C:12T / CM212 Evo / Asus X99 Deluxe / 16GB (4x4GB) DDR4 3000 Trident-Z / Samsung 850 Pro 256GB / Intel 335 240GB / WD Red 2 & 3TB / Antec 850w / RTX 2070 / Win10 Pro x64 HP Envy X360 15: Intel Core i5 8250U @ 1.6GHz 4C:8T / 8GB DDR4 / Intel UHD620 + Nvidia GeForce MX150 4GB / Intel 120GB SSD / Win10 Pro x64 HP Envy x360 BP series Intel 8th gen AMD ThreadRipper 2! 5820K & 6800K 3-way SLI mobo support list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 7, 2016 You basically have to squeeze a lot of traces in a very short amount of space, and the majority of those traces are in pairs that have to be length matched within less than 0.1mm and all the pairs have to be equal size .. that's why you see all those wiggles on traces going from memory to cpu or from cpu to pci-e slot etc.. have to make sure the data traces from pci-e aren't too close to ddr traces to affect the signal quality... it's not easy. Basically, it's a lot of accuracy and precise traces which is quite complex. Most motherboards already have 4 to 6 layers, making an ITX sized one off motherboard at a prototyping company with so many layers would cost you maybe $200 .. if you want to make it narrower than mitx or some other weird format, you'd have to go to more than 6 layers, maybe 8 or 10 layers. You may potentially have to place so-dimm slot on the other side of the board and route the traces for that second slot in such a way as to not be affected by the data traces of the first slot (have to add separation between layers and between data pairs,,. huge headaches). It may be easier to just solder the DDR4 or DDR3 chips directly on the pcb to save space and make pcb smaller Then you have to build a VRM, a dc-dc converter for the processor, and you have to pick the parts and calculate how much heat each mosfet and inductor and mosfet drivers will generate and space them in the tiny space so that they won't burn up, and that will also tell you how much copper on the surface pcb you would need as a heatsink etc etc and you have to code the bios and load microcode for processors in it (would be easier just to desolder from existing motherboards) You'd also have to put the chipset and all the required parts on the board ... with Intel you need it, with AM4 processors (from AMD) the chipset is optional, so it may be a better choice. Anyway, you can't buy chipsets as one off , can't buy sockets (with socket am4 and pga sockets it may be possible to desolder them from boards, it's much harder with lga sockets), can't buy lots of vrm controllers that have the digital circuitry required to communicate with chipsets (can't use any vrm controller) because companies don't bother with regular folks, often can't buy the powerful mosfets you'd use in a vrm in small quantities... Really, you'd pretty much have to desolder everything from an existing board and resolder them on your circuit board. Here's the amount of work you would need to do on a PCB to add DDR3 to a processor (I think it's some kind of ARM chip) ... took 38 hours for a relatively expert, recorded at one frame per second.. on what i think it's a 6 layer board (but it could be 8 .. each color is a different layer) : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 8, 2016 Author @mariushm@NumLock21@M.Yurizaki@tarfeef101@Bananasplit_00@UberGamerKing@W-L@Belgarathian@Xanthe_2871 Hello! Thank you all so much for the responses! So what it looks like you guys are saying is that I will need to make a PCB without any ports or sockets, then take the sockets from another motherboard and put those on. Seem simple put probably not as one of you pointed out I will need to make a bios but we will worry about that later. For now we need to focus on the PCB. Now with the design I had in mind it will be a tube that is water cooled using the dimensions as I said earlier and then it will have a foldable keyboard and display (yes they makes those lol) I have a idea on what I want on the PCB but does anyone know how I can make a blueprint and design of it. I know one of you said a School perhaps, or a Program to make a model. I will be making the case and the design for the display on my own time and will post more on that. But here is what I need from you guys and your very smart brains. 1. I need to make a blueprint of the PCB I need to fit the tube using the size and dimensions I said earlier. Which means I need a program to do so. 2. I need to find a motherboard with all the features I need. Luckily I have been collecting computers for the last year and have plenty of spares. I just need a list from you guys on what sockets and ports to use. 3. I need a base of knowledge or a list of parts for sockets and chips for the motherboard. I would like the PCB to be relatively fast but we can worry about that later. I will be researching this as I go. It would be great if you guys helped me along this journey as I am doing this with or without your help... It just might take me longer without your help. I will give a update soon! Happy building! -wiredbrother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 8, 2016 Dude, like I said, you'd have about 1% chance of making a motherboard into a new shape and actually get it working. Motherboards are extremely complex. The way the traces are arranged on motherboards matter, the way they're placed in relation to other traces matter, everything matters... you have literally no chance in hell to re-arrange traces and move components and sockets around and still come up with reliable working motherboard. Most small batch prototyping places won't even take your order for a couple of boards with 6-8 layers and weird shapes, or if they do they'd smack you with costs of over 500$ and i'm 100% sure you won't get the first board functional. Like I said, you can't even see the layers of motherboards, you only see the top layer and the bottom layer... there's more layers inside with connections all over the place. If you want to use an existing motherboard as inspiration and just move components around to fit your shape, you'd have to be able to peel the motherboard back to layers and figure out all connections between layers. For a person that doesn't even know what programs to use to draw a circuit board, this would be impossible. Here's for example what's involved in just a 4 layer board: And here's what it would take to solder most of the modern components on a motherboard: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 8, 2016 51 minutes ago, wiredbrother said: I have a idea on what I want on the PCB but does anyone know how I can make a blueprint and design of it. I know one of you said a School perhaps, or a Program to make a model. I will be making the case and the design for the display on my own time and will post more on that. But here is what I need from you guys and your very smart brains. You could go to a site like digikey.com and buy literally everything besides the pcb, including hdmi ports, and pcie connectors if you feel like it. You will need hundreds of dollars worth of professoonal pcb software, and similation software, as well as an army of robots to assemble it. You don't know how many engineers it takes to engineer a motherboard do you? It isn't one guy, it is multiple teams working together on different sections of it, it would take at least a half a year to design, and simulate it, for a single person with an engineering background probabbly more realistically up to a year or two, with no knowledge it would be 5-6 years most likely. First go to school for electrical enginnering for 4-5 years just to understand what the hell actually goes on in a motherboard. It is more then just stick stuff together and boom it works. If that was the case what am I doing with my life? Your best option would be to buy a laptop motherboard, or pico/nano itx board that will fit in the chasis you want. •E5-2670 @2.7GHz • Intel DX79SI • EVGA 970 SSC• GSkill Sniper 8Gb ddr3 • Corsair Spec 02 • Corsair RM750 • HyperX 120Gb SSD • Hitachi 2Tb HDD • Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 8, 2016 Well first of all, there may be some knowledgeable people on this forum. Some may even be able to give you some professional advice on the subject. However, the usual discussions on this forum, are of a non-professional nature. Very few actually work in the industry, and i would be surprised if anyone here designs motherboards, graphics card boards or any other complex PCB for that matter. If you really want to tinker with this kind of stuff, this is not the forum you are looking for. Motherboard: Asus X570-E CPU: 3900x 4.3GHZ Memory: G.skill Trident GTZR 3200mhz cl14 GPU: AMD RX 570 SSD1: Corsair MP510 1TB SSD2: Samsung MX500 500GB PSU: Corsair AX860i Platinum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 8, 2016 3 hours ago, wiredbrother said: @mariushm@NumLock21@M.Yurizaki@tarfeef101@Bananasplit_00@UberGamerKing@W-L@Belgarathian@Xanthe_2871 Hello! Thank you all so much for the responses! So what it looks like you guys are saying is that I will need to make a PCB without any ports or sockets, then take the sockets from another motherboard and put those on. Seem simple put probably not as one of you pointed out I will need to make a bios but we will worry about that later. For now we need to focus on the PCB. Now with the design I had in mind it will be a tube that is water cooled using the dimensions as I said earlier and then it will have a foldable keyboard and display (yes they makes those lol) I have a idea on what I want on the PCB but does anyone know how I can make a blueprint and design of it. I know one of you said a School perhaps, or a Program to make a model. I will be making the case and the design for the display on my own time and will post more on that. But here is what I need from you guys and your very smart brains. 1. I need to make a blueprint of the PCB I need to fit the tube using the size and dimensions I said earlier. Which means I need a program to do so. 2. I need to find a motherboard with all the features I need. Luckily I have been collecting computers for the last year and have plenty of spares. I just need a list from you guys on what sockets and ports to use. 3. I need a base of knowledge or a list of parts for sockets and chips for the motherboard. I would like the PCB to be relatively fast but we can worry about that later. I will be researching this as I go. It would be great if you guys helped me along this journey as I am doing this with or without your help... It just might take me longer without your help. I will give a update soon! Happy building! -wiredbrother well if you just hack togethere old motherboards you might get something to work idk, anyway: 1: no idea on what to use, what they use in proper places is probabaly expensive AF 2: get a motherboard you want and take LITTEALY EVERYTHING off of it for use on your custom board, you will need chipset, socket, BIOS chip and basically everything else 3: go look on a CPU you like, and look up what chipsets it supports and what socket it needs and all that this is still a pretty freaking huge, expensive and time consuming project but good luck i guess I spent $2500 on building my PC and all i do with it is play no games atm & watch anime at 1080p(finally) watch YT and write essays... nothing, it just sits there collecting dust... Builds: The Toaster Project! Northern Bee! The original LAN PC build log! (Old, dead and replaced by The Toaster Project & 5.0) Spoiler "Here is some advice that might have gotten lost somewhere along the way in your life. #1. Treat others as you would like to be treated. #2. It's best to keep your mouth shut; and appear to be stupid, rather than open it and remove all doubt. #3. There is nothing "wrong" with being wrong. Learning from a mistake can be more valuable than not making one in the first place. Follow these simple rules in life, and I promise you, things magically get easier. " - MageTank 31-10-2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 8, 2016 Author Alrighty so I have come upon a idea. I liked what one of you said about finding a already built motherboard. So what I can do is use that PCB and re-solder the news parts on. Would that work though anyways today I am making a 3D blue print of the computer I will be designing and making. Oh and for all the people that told me how long it would take me or how many people it takes to do something like this read my original post please. Specifically: "First off I want to build a motherboard from scratch. Now before all the negative people start blowing up the comments section about how "You can't do this" or "Its not feasible", I know this is going to take time and money. I GET THAT! " Will be making another post soon! -wiredbrother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 8, 2016 16 minutes ago, wiredbrother said: Alrighty so I have come upon a idea. I liked what one of you said about finding a already built motherboard. So what I can do is use that PCB and re-solder the news parts on. Would that work though anyways today I am making a 3D blue print of the computer I will be designing and making. Oh and for all the people that told me how long it would take me or how many people it takes to do something like this read my original post please. Unfortunately just soldering new components onto an already built motherboard would be even less feasable then creating a motherboard from scratch, you would have to use the same exact components it order for the design to work because not all motherbords are going to have the same layouts, the only way to get it to work would be recreating the original board, then what would be the point? 16 hours ago, wiredbrother said: But the problem with that is I have no idea what half the stuff on a motherboard means and does. (Hence why I have number 3.) So I need you guys to lead me and help me. I have a place to design it, I have the time, I have the money, Now I just need you guys to lead me in the right direction! With respect to money you are looking at spending at least $40-50,000USD for software, materials, prototypes, assembly machines to get a working board at the end, a decent bga chip workstation will be $20,000USD alone. With time you are looking at years of work in just education to even start to design a board. The right direction would be first getting a degree in Electrical Engineering. You are underestimating what it will actually take, this isn't something you can just google, and find the answers. It would be the same as someone saying that they want to create their own supersonic jet, one person could do it, but not unless they have an ungodly amount of money, and time, and resources. So it is reasonable to say one person could do it? •E5-2670 @2.7GHz • Intel DX79SI • EVGA 970 SSC• GSkill Sniper 8Gb ddr3 • Corsair Spec 02 • Corsair RM750 • HyperX 120Gb SSD • Hitachi 2Tb HDD • Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) Author WAIT WAIT WAIT GUYS! What if I took apart a Mac Pro trash can and used those boards! (all of them are separated into three different parts). It might work. Hope to do something cool! ok scratch that... what about this? http://www.fedevel.com/welldoneblog/2013/07/design-your-own-intel-x86-motherboard/ Edited November 8, 2016 by wiredbrother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 9, 2016 10 hours ago, wiredbrother said: WAIT WAIT WAIT GUYS! What if I took apart a Mac Pro trash can and used those boards! (all of them are separated into three different parts). It might work. Hope to do something cool! ok scratch that... what about this? http://www.fedevel.com/welldoneblog/2013/07/design-your-own-intel-x86-motherboard/ Just an FYI about using an old board. The traces are designed to be a certain length to ensure everything is synchronized, down to the smallest units of time. As a result, even changing components soldered into the board may brick it, as these calculations are made given a predetermined set of parameters. So, trying to take a board and replace components is not really feasible. Main Rig: R9 5950X @ PBO, RTX 3090, 64 GB DDR4 3666, InWin 101, Full Hardline Watercooling Server: R7 1700X @ 4.0 GHz, GTX 1080 Ti, 32GB DDR4 3000, Cooler Master NR200P, Full Soft Watercooling LAN Rig: R5 3600X @ PBO, RTX 2070, 32 GB DDR4 3200, Dan Case A4-SFV V4, 120mm AIO for the CPU HTPC: i7-7700K @ 4.6 GHz, GTX 1050 Ti, 16 GB DDR4 3200, AliExpress K39, IS-47K Cooler Router: R3 2200G @ stock, 4GB DDR4 2400, what are cases, stock cooler I don't have a problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 9, 2016 Im sorry but theres is no way you can do this. The chips and sockets are impossible to get off the board and to get them you have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars, the design of 1 SINGLE PIECE takes a whole team of highly trained engineers with mulitple years of experience in their sector (likely electrical engineering). Im sorry there is no possible way you can do this without spending close to a million dollars He who asks is stupid for 5 minutes. He who does not ask, remains stupid. -Chinese proverb. Those who know much are aware that they know little. - Slick roasting me Spoiler AXIOM CPU- Intel i5-6500 GPU- EVGA 1060 6GB Motherboard- Gigabyte GA-H170-D3H RAM- 8GB HyperX DDR4-2133 PSU- EVGA GQ 650w HDD- OEM 750GB Seagate Case- NZXT S340 Mouse- Logitech Gaming g402 Keyboard- Azio MGK1 Headset- HyperX Cloud Core Offical first poster LTT V2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 9, 2016 Can you do it if you get datasheets and do everythng by the book, yes. Is it worth even starting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 17, 2016 Author Greetings and hello! Good news! First off I was able to talk to some people I knew at Intel and they said that they would teach me how to build one as a apprentice there. Secondly I have also been offered to learn how to use and operate a CNC machine which now means I can make the case. We now have the case to build, the motherboard to build and I even have some photos to show you for the case idea. So now this is my turn were I laugh at all the people who said not one person could do it. This is true but I don't think anyone was thinking I could do it. So thank you because of you guys I now learn very useful skills that I would not have gotten without your negativity! Thank you! So here is a photo that I drew up to give you guys a idea of what the case will look like. But you guys please remember I still want to keep this thread going and alive! Hope your all doing great and I will update you guys soon! Sincerely -wiredbrother P.S Don't leave there is more coming soon! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Front.pdf Back.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 17, 2016 This wouldnt be as easy as you might think There are also be allot of legal law stuff that needs to be dealth with to become a board partner for intel or amd. Same counts for all the other third party components that you gonne need the build a board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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