Why Linus is wrong (another macbook topic)

[Enderman]

Just now, samcool55 said:

Well, good luck getting rid of a connector that has been used for 20+ years

It's just the same thing with the 3.5mm jack.

 

Tbh if apple wants to get rid of it, sure, i don't care.

I don't buy their products and i don't have to use them.

 

Also i think this also starts to show geological/cultural differences.

Things like thunderbolt are just barely used where i live, even tho i hear a lot about it from the 'murica side of the world.

And there's a similar thing going on with USB-C things, you barely see them in shops.

 

If apple wants to force everyone usb-c down their throat, again i don't care.

But if they don't have usb-c devices in stock, it won't matter how much force they use.

 

If it's a pain in the butt to go usb-c and doesn't get as easy to get as a usb-a device, it won't go anywhere.

 

Time and time we see the same thing, great tech but without the support from a community, manufactureres or whoever else that can make it really big and mainstream, it fails.

Better that the apple users get it forced down their throat, since they usually are fine with spending tons of money on overpriced technology

Cables and adapters are easily affordable to them.

[samcool55]

8 minutes ago, Enderman said:

Better that the apple users get it forced down their throat, since they usually are fine with spending tons of money on overpriced technology

Cables and adapters are easily affordable to them.

True  But if you just cannot get them, you have a problem, something that is the case where i live.

Apart from the iPhone it's very rare to find apple stuff around here. Things like a macbook or iMac are just very difficult to find here.

 

And tbh i do have the impression that people looking at other people that have an apple product are more likely to think "he/she is an arse" than "he/she is cool and has a lot of money".

Again, seems more like a geological/cultural thing than an apple thing.

[Enderman]

6 minutes ago, samcool55 said:

True  But if you just cannot get them, you have a problem, something that is the case where i live.

Apart from the iPhone it's very rare to find apple stuff around here. Things like a macbook or iMac are just very difficult to find here.

 

And tbh i do have the impression that people looking at other people that have an apple product are more likely to think "he/she is an arse" than "he/she is cool and has a lot of money".

Again, seems more like a geological/cultural thing than an apple thing.

But thunderbolt 3 and USB-C are universal, the cables and adapters don't need to be apple. You can get non-apple USB cables from amazon or whatever

[Slick]

@Enderman

 

That's what a dock is

 

http://www.laptopmag.com/articles/best-docking-stations

 

I have no issue with lots of USB C. Lot's of USB C is great. I'm also not gonna replace everything I have in order to make them work natively with my new laptop. Therefore there will be TONS of adapters everywhere, which I don't like. 

 

I would have appreciated a lot of USB C and atleast SOME other native connectors.. Adapters suck.

 

I'm happy you're stoked for the new I/O and are a trumpeter of the future, that's awesome. But this I/O Setup will be an issue for people.

 

Say what you want - opinions are allowed, these are mine

[bobhays]

7 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Agreed. There have even been professors at my school that couldn't help students with MAC's. My professor for Finance has a Business Stats course before our class. The software they are using for the class, it seems the mac version doesn't have all the same functions as the Windows version. So in a lot of cases Mac users are screwed, if they dont know how to use the software. 

True, on the other hand though, my CS professor used a mac but since it's a CS class he had instruction for Mac/Linux, and Windows.

In engineering all the labs have Windows PC's to run the simulation software, but in my Physics lab there are all Macs (not for the software but just cause) and I just bring my laptop to Physics because I can't stand using iMac's with the crappy Apple (not magic) Mouse

[Enderman]

2 hours ago, Slick said:

@Enderman

 

That's what a dock is

 

http://www.laptopmag.com/articles/best-docking-stations

 

I have no issue with lots of USB C. Lot's of USB C is great. I'm also not gonna replace everything I have in order to make them work natively with my new laptop. Therefore there will be TONS of adapters everywhere, which I don't like. 

 

I would have appreciated a lot of USB C and atleast SOME other native connectors.. Adapters suck.

 

I'm happy you're stoked for the new I/O and are a trumpeter of the future, that's awesome. But this I/O Setup will be an issue for people.

 

Say what you want - opinions are allowed, these are mine

Maybe I should have chosen my words more carefully, instead of "best" I should say "most futuristic" or "forward looking" IO.

 

Personally almost everything I have has a removable cable, so instead of using tons of adapters, I would only need to replace the cables and everything would work natively (if I was to buy a macbook pro, which I'm not)

Replacing cables with a better type of cable doesn't sound that bad to me, especially if it means no bulky adapters and no additional cables.

In fact, I even recently swapped out 90% of my cables to flat white cables for aesthetics.

 

Either way, in 3-5 years when all devices have USB-C ports on them, all we would need to do is swap out to USB-C cables with no need for any adapters or compatibility issues.

So we should be thanking apple users for forcibly being the first adopters and making USB-C come in a few years rather than a few decades (based on adoption rates so far)

 

You're not the one buying a macbook pro, right? Well me neither, but I'm glad it exists for the benefits it will bring to everyone relatively soon

[sgloux3470]

22 hours ago, Enderman said:

The USB-C ports are thunderbolt 3 which contain DP 1.2, so yes it can do freesync.

The days of "big meaty connectors" back when parallel port was a thing are gone, get over it.

 

Removing legacy ports is necessary to move forward. You can see that for the past year almost nobody moved to USB-C because few manufacturers made devices with USB-C, because there was always the USB-A alternative.

The problem with people is that they always stick with what is old and known rather than moving to something newer that will be better.

 

Guess why you are using USB-A right now? Because parallel ports, game ports, serial port, and PS2 ports were removed.

If you for some reason still use one of those disgustingly outdated technologies you can always buy an adapter.

 

"oh we need to keep backwards compatibility, let's put every port from the past 100 years so that nobody is left out" This completely impedes technological progress, and we would all be using about 50 different 20 year old connectors today.

 

"Got a printer, gotta pull out my parallel cable. Got a mouse, gotta pull out my PS2 cable. Got a controller, gotta pull out my gameport cable. Oh no, I have a VGA cable but no serial cable, I'm screwed!"

I think you can see how absurd that is.

Please, stop acting like some 80 year old grandparents and get used to change. Even my grandparents are more understanding of the progression to newer technologies than some of the people in this topic.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it.  The only way a new standard gets adopted is if it has extreme tangible benefits over the old. There's a reason DVD's are still everywhere a decade after Bluray was introduced: for most people their DVD player is good enough for them.  All the new connectors that really took over offered something significant.  USB A has provided a defacto interface for a variety of peripherals ranging from KB/M, Flash memory, charging cords, controllers, speakers, external drives etc etc for hardware and devices going 10+ years back. There is no real benefit to just swapping all of that to USB C to anyone. Not the consumer, who already has a dozen USB ports on their computer and won't see any functional difference.  Not the manufacturer, who has to redesign their product. Not the retailer who has to phase out inventory for hundreds of products.  The USB type C port can do everything, but no one really needs that except for perhaps on tight form factor designs, like laptops, which benefit the most from cutting out unnecessary ports.  Which is why Apple is pushing it so hard: they love two things more than anything else; slim designs and braindead easy to plug and play hardware.  For everyone else, USB type C provides zero real world benefit and only offers convenience.

 

PS2, VGA/DVI, USB type A etc aren't going anywhere anytime soon.  Every motherboard still has some PS2 support, every video card has atleast DVI and every motherboard will continue to have lots of USB A ports for years to come.

[79wjd]

27 minutes ago, sgloux3470 said:

USB A has provided a defacto interface for a variety of peripherals ranging from KB/M, Flash memory, charging cords, controllers, speakers, external drives etc etc for hardware and devices going 10+ years back. There is no real benefit to just swapping all of that to USB C to anyone. Not the consumer, who already has a dozen USB ports on their computer and won't see any functional difference.  Not the manufacturer, who has to redesign their product. Not the retailer who has to phase out inventory for hundreds of products.  The USB type C port can do everything, but no one really needs that except for perhaps on tight form factor designs, like laptops, which benefit the most from cutting out unnecessary ports.  Which is why Apple is pushing it so hard: they love two things more than anything else; slim designs and braindead easy to plug and play hardware.  For everyone else, USB type C provides zero real world benefit and only offers convenience.

 

PS2, VGA/DVI, USB type A etc aren't going anywhere anytime soon.  Every motherboard still has some PS2 support, every video card has atleast DVI and every motherboard will continue to have lots of USB A ports for years to come.

USB-C provides the EXACT same benefit that type-A did. It combines, USB, Thunderbolt, HDMI, DVI, DP, power cables (for laptops/monitors), etc... 

 

DVDs still exist because a lot of people don't even use optical media anymore (they use netflix). Also, most laptops don't have DVD drives and many cases don't even have a 5.25" bay anymore. 

 

Also, there are cards that don't have DVI ports, and it's becoming more and more common to not have them. 

[Enderman]

27 minutes ago, sgloux3470 said:

If it isn't broke, don't fix it.  The only way a new standard gets adopted is if it has extreme tangible benefits over the old. There's a reason DVD's are still everywhere a decade after Bluray was introduced: for most people their DVD player is good enough for them.  All the new connectors that really took over offered something significant.  USB A has provided a defacto interface for a variety of peripherals ranging from KB/M, Flash memory, charging cords, controllers, speakers, external drives etc etc for hardware and devices going 10+ years back. There is no real benefit to just swapping all of that to USB C to anyone. Not the consumer, who already has a dozen USB ports on their computer and won't see any functional difference.  Not the manufacturer, who has to redesign their product. Not the retailer who has to phase out inventory for hundreds of products.  The USB type C port can do everything, but no one really needs that except for perhaps on tight form factor designs, like laptops, which benefit the most from cutting out unnecessary ports.  Which is why Apple is pushing it so hard: they love two things more than anything else; slim designs and braindead easy to plug and play hardware.  For everyone else, USB type C provides zero real world benefit and only offers convenience.

 

PS2, VGA/DVI, USB type A etc aren't going anywhere anytime soon.  Every motherboard still has some PS2 support, every video card has atleast DVI and every motherboard will continue to have lots of USB A ports for years to come.

1) barely anyone still has dvd players or CD drives in their pc. The reason bluray did not become huge is because optical discs became obsolete with the introduction of flash memory.

 

2) "if it aint broke dont fix it" is absurd in the world of technology, thank goodness people don't think like you. Otherwise we would still be driving horse carriages and using oil lamps.

 

3) USB A replaced parallel, game, serial, and PS2 ports, USB-C (with thunderbolt obviously) is replacing all that, and displayport, and power, and external PCIe.

The entire point is to not need 12 ports on your computer. I bet you don't even remember back when you needed a separate port for every device until USB A came about.

 

4) no modern GPUs have VGA,  and also no DVI-A or DVI-I. DVI-D will eventually be phased out too in favour of DP and HDMI.

If you look at any modern or high end motherboard, there is no PS2.

USB-A has been here for two decades and is not being replaced by USB-C, whether you like it or not.

 

Are you one of those people that still uses serial ports because "if it aint broke dont fix it" and "no one really needs USB-A" ?

It seems to me that you either don't understand how technology changes over time, or you didn't bother to read the original post.

Either way, I don't have time for giving elementary school lessons to someone who believes in such diehard traditions.

[79wjd]

3 minutes ago, Enderman said:

If you look at any modern or high end motherboard, there is no PS2

A lot of motherboards do still have (one) PS/2 port actually. 

[Enderman]

Just now, djdwosk97 said:

A lot of motherboards do still have (one) PS/2 port actually. 

But do you have a PS2 mouse or keyboard??

I haven't used that port in over 8 years.

I have used serial more often than that.

[79wjd]

3 minutes ago, Enderman said:

But do you have a PS2 mouse or keyboard??

I haven't used that port in over 8 years.

I have used serial more often than that.

A lot of mechanical keyboards come with PS/2 adapters because PS/2 has less latency, PS/2 also supports N-key rollover (I don't think USB fully does), and it has fewer legacy bios compatibility issues. 

 

NKRO is kind of bullshit unless you facedesk your keyboard, and the added latency of USB is virtually non-existent so most people don't use those adapters, but I'm sure you have some diehards that do. (PS/2 is better for a KVM though because of the compatibility, but you should also just be using IPMI/iLO/etc... these days anyway)

[Enderman]

8 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

A lot of mechanical keyboards come with PS/2 adapters because PS/2 has less latency, PS/2 also supports N-key rollover (I don't think USB fully does), and it has fewer legacy bios compatibility issues. 

 

NKRO is kind of bullshit unless you facedesk your keyboard, and the added latency of USB is virtually non-existent so most people don't use those adapters, but I'm sure you have some diehards that do. (PS/2 is better for a KVM though because of the compatibility, but you should also just be using IPMI/iLO/etc... these days anyway)

Uh, almost every decent gaming keyboard has full nkro over USB...

Maybe because they use USB 3.0 instead of 2.0?

[79wjd]

Just now, Enderman said:

Uh, almost every decent gaming keyboard has full nkro over USB...

Maybe because they use USB 3.0 instead of 2.0?

I'm not sure. All I know is that NKRO is one of the big points for PS/2. So maybe USB does it through some software layer...or something....I haven't bothered to look into it because I can't possibly hit that many keys at once anyway. 

[sgloux3470]

42 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

USB-C provides the EXACT same benefit that type-A did. It combines, USB, Thunderbolt, HDMI, DVI, DP, power cables (for laptops/monitors), etc... 

 

DVDs still exist because a lot of people don't even use optical media anymore (they use netflix). Also, most laptops don't have DVD drives and many cases don't even have a 5.25" bay anymore. 

 

Also, there are cards that don't have DVI ports, and it's becoming more and more common to not have them. 

We really don't need a second universal plug though.  Not until there are tangible advantages to it for Grandma.  Everyone who cares is already using DP, USB 3.0 etc.

 

The multiport functionality is really only useful for connecting displays.  The only potential benefit is maybe in 5 years we'll see single slot cards again with high performance.

 

While optical media is less popular it's still the de facto format for most people buying movies.  Most people are not willing to pay the price premium for bluray, nor has bluray completely supplanted DVD.  

 

AMD doesn't have them on their stock RX cards because of how they designed the cooler, Nvidia has it on their stock cards however. AIB's all add it on.   The only time it isn't present is on AMD reference cards.  

24 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

I'm not sure. All I know is that NKRO is one of the big points for PS/2. So maybe USB does it through some software layer...or something....I haven't bothered to look into it because I can't possibly hit that many keys at once anyway. 

If I had to guess, it's a USB 3.0 thing.  My keyboard is a Corsair Gaming k95 and it either requires 2 USB 2.0 ports or 1 USB 3.0 ports to function.  

[ATFink]

8 hours ago, Abyssal Radon said:

Ok, I understand OP's argument and I have to challenge this. Now we have a few things to consider, I know a lot of people that uses mice with their laptop and typically I see they are plugged in via USB interface. So in theory if they bought the new MacBook Pro's they would have to shell out more money towards an adapter or a new mouse... ouch. Whenever I use my laptop for instance, I typically have one of my 4K monitors plugged in for a larger desktop workspace. I couldn't use my regular DP cable, well off to the store or online to buy a adapter... ouch. For any thumb drive to load files onto, well now I have to use my adapter for my mouse and wait... I have to buy another adapter since I always use my mouse with my laptop... ouch. Apple is trying to push the idea of, forcing the consumers to purchase adapters with their products for more money, kinda like the iPhone 7 fuck up. Apple has been always about 'innovating', this isn't innovation, this is called being a bunch of greedy fuck nuggets trying to squeeze every penny out of their consumers. Now their products are expensive and now you have to buy a few adapters in order to use your own peripherals... not cool Apple. While the laptop itself look's and is spec'd nicely, this move with the four Thunderbolt 3 ports is fucking annoying. At least they didn't remove the headphone/mic jack... morons.

The point of Enderman's argument in the first place is to force the USB type C standard. Of course MBP users will need an adapter for everything... users not wanting to purchase adapters will increase demand for products that support USB type C in the future.

 

When almost all peripherals support USB type C in the future (thanks to mac users) windows computers will make the switch. The transition sucks for those driving it, but when it is all said and done everything will be more convenient. Just give the markets time to adapt.

[Enderman]

15 minutes ago, sgloux3470 said:

We really don't need a second universal plug though.

This is not "another" port, this is a replacement port.

Just like cars replaced horses. You don't use both.

[Oberon.Smite]

Your argument is like someone saying "HDMI is the new standard anyways, they're just keeping ahead of the game" in 2006.

[79wjd]

40 minutes ago, sgloux3470 said:

We really don't need a second universal plug though.

 

The multiport functionality is really only useful for connecting displays.  The only potential benefit is maybe in 5 years we'll see single slot cards again with high performance.

 

While optical media is less popular it's still the de facto format for most people buying movies.  Most people are not willing to pay the price premium for bluray, nor has bluray completely supplanted DVD.  

 

AMD doesn't have them on their stock RX cards because of how they designed the cooler, Nvidia has it on their stock cards however. AIB's all add it on.   The only time it isn't present is on AMD reference cards.  

If I had to guess, it's a USB 3.0 thing.  My keyboard is a Corsair Gaming k95 and it either requires 2 USB 2.0 ports or 1 USB 3.0 ports to function.  

Why not? Why did we need when when type-A was a thing but not anymore? The multiport functionality of type-c is just as good as USB was two decades ago. 

 

There's also a big difference between blurays and usb-c. Blurays just look nicer, but they're not more convenient than DVDs (if anything they're less convenient since they have longer load times). USB-C is more convenient since it combines multiple ports/cables/connectors into just 1. 

 

Give it a bit longer and DVI will be gone on most high end cards. DP didn't really start gaining traction until a couple years ago. 

 

You need two USBs to provide extra power for RGB or the USB pass through. If it's not the RGB variant, then it will work with just one connector. (I have a non-rgb k70 and it works just fine with a single usb 2.0 cable).

[Enderman]

28 minutes ago, Oberon.Smite said:

Your argument is like someone saying "HDMI is the new standard anyways, they're just keeping ahead of the game" in 2006.

Clearly you didn't even try to read.

This is more like USB-A replacing serial ports, PS2 ports, parallel ports, game ports and ADB ports, in 1996.

[Maximoose]

I can't wait for everything to be USB type C, then I can charge my laptop, mac, iphone, and android phone from the same block. And then all headphones will be usb type c anyway, so apple won't have to worry about removing the headphone jack. And I will be able to use the same flash drive I use on my pc on my phone.

[AxelRantila]

On 2016-10-29 at 6:32 PM, Dash Lambda said:

My problem with it (aside from dropping the SD card reader, not sure if that's new but it's stupid) is that Apple's showing a complete disregard for usability.

 

No matter how good USB-C is, no matter what it can do or how well it does it, it's a new standard that's very uncommon. You'll need to carry around adapters, sacrifice one peripheral for another, worry about compatibility when you shouldn't have to, etc...

 

Apple is making a product, a tool for people use, and especially if it's being called "pro," it should be designed to maximize usefulness. Moving to Type-C is great, but forcing their customers to switch entirely even though it sacrifices that usefulness is precisely what makes me hate Apple. Their products aren't designed for people to use, they're not designed to work well, they're not designed to fit, they're just designed to force their customers to do something while Apple makes more money.

 

EDIT: I should also add that the iPhone 7 is using the lightning port. What's the point to having one connector if they don't even keep it consistent in their own goddamn products?

Yeah, this is also how I feel about the design of the new MacBook. I have tone of peripherals (mice, keyboard, USB memories and headphones *coughcough iPhone7 coughcough*) that uses the old USB connectors and if I were to get the new MacBook, I would need an adapter in every port, massively increasing overhead. I have a Xperia Z3. While it has a proprietary magnetic charging port, it also has a normal USB port which I really like. This is a good indication that Sony actually thought of end-user usability.

 

Plus, no headphone jack means no iPhone or MacBook purchase for me. I like to charge my phone and listen to music at the same time as I'm playing Pokemon Go.

[Arri]

Someone posted about this on Reddit as well. A lot of people are making a ruckus that Apple is now a dongle company. What we're not realizing is that Apple just moved all their Macs to a universal standard. So while it may be painful for early adopters to use legacy technology, the market will adjust and everyone will be on the type-c standard.

 

If anything.. Apple did consumers a huge favor by picking type-C and not creating a new standard. The rest of the market was already moving to type-C and Apple is just making the transition quicker.

[Enderman]

3 minutes ago, AxelRantila said:

I have tone of peripherals (mice, keyboard, USB memories and headphones *coughcough iPhone7 coughcough*) that uses the old USB connectors and if I were to get the new MacBook, I would need an adapter in every port, massively increasing overhead.

Your peripherals don't have removable cables??

I know the iphone does...imagine a phone with a non-removable cable, lol.

Devices with detachable cables just need the cable replaced, not an adapter.

And are you sure you know what overhead means?

[AxelRantila]

4 minutes ago, Enderman said:

Your peripherals don't have removable cables??

I know the iphone does...imagine a phone with a non-removable cable, lol.

Devices with detachable cables just need the cable replaced, not an adapter.

And are you sure you know what overhead means?

I meant for every port derp.

 

And yeah I know what overhead means and it will certainly come with the addition of adapters. Maybe not noticeable for KB/M and charging, but it can certainly become noticeable for USB storage devices.