Why Linus is wrong (another macbook topic)

[79wjd]

1 minute ago, Enderman said:

If your MBP has USB C and your displays had USB C and all your other devices had USB C, then you would only need one type of cable, that is C to C

The future is sunny, apple is literally forcing people to use USB C to increase adoption rate so that this sunny future can get here faster.

Everyone that uses a PC should be thankful for that.

People would rather have a mac that has 2 type A and 2 type c ports, that way in a couple years they'll only actually have two useful ports.

[Kobathor]

9 hours ago, Enderman said:

Yes, the magsafe connector is gone, but hey look, more hypocritical people.

First complain about apple using proprietary stuff, and when they switch to a global standard like USB, then complain that the proprietary connector is no longer there.

Magsafe is called "MagSAFE" for a reason. It's a convenient, safe standard for charging your laptop. I think that, if you ask anybody what proprietary connector Apple should keep, it would be Magsafe, because it's so good.

 

Being able to charge from every USB-C port is nice, don't get me wrong. But Magsafe is great. Only downside is that it's expensive.

[79wjd]

6 minutes ago, Kobathor said:

Magsafe is called "MagSAFE" for a reason. It's a convenient, safe standard for charging your laptop. I think that, if you ask anybody what proprietary connector Apple should keep, it would be Magsafe, because it's so good.

 

Being able to charge from every USB-C port is nice, don't get me wrong. But Magsafe is great. Only downside is that it's expensive.

They could've gone with a magsafe type c. Luckily there are third party magsafe options (griffin breaksafe). All in all, I'd rather have type-c since it means the chargers will be more prevalent/universal. 

[Lord Sephington]

Its all well and good ranting and raving about how good USB type C really is, but one major problem still lies in the case that USB type C is still in infancy and in another 2 years or so they will probably bring out an even better connection type to cause even more problems with connecting devices.

 

Plus the other major issue I hold with this so called "pro" laptop is the fact that they charge so much money for it and it cant be used in a "pro" environment if you went with the 13" model being that it only has a dual core processor. For the price of this hunk of crap i would at least thought a quad CPU with some form of graphics and AT LEAST 16Gb of ram not the piss poor showing that they brought to the table.

 

Once again apple is showing that they are out of touch with what the general average joe needs on a system these days. Instead of making a product like this for the sheeple who must have everything which gets thrown together with a ridiculous price tag just because it has a logo on it.

 

Let the hate comments come as i for one will be laughing at each and every one of them!

[Kobathor]

7 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

They could've gone with a magsafe type c. Luckily there are third party magsafe options (griffin breaksafe). All in all, I'd rather have type-c since it means the chargers will be more prevalent/universal. 

Magsafe Type C sounds awesome.

You're right tho, chargers will be more universal. But this may be bad, I can imagine so many Macbook owners putting the wrong charger in their laptop.

[79wjd]

9 minutes ago, jaybob85 said:

Its all well and good ranting and raving about how good USB type C really is, but one major problem still lies in the case that USB type C is still in infancy and in another 2 years or so they will probably bring out an even better connection type to cause even more problems with connecting devices.

 

Plus the other major issue I hold with this so called "pro" laptop is the fact that they charge so much money for it and it cant be used in a "pro" environment if you went with the 13" model being that it only has a dual core processor. For the price of this hunk of crap i would at least thought a quad CPU with some form of graphics and AT LEAST 16Gb of ram not the piss poor showing that they brought to the table.

I seriously doubt there will be a replacement to type-c anytime soon. 

 

It's priced and spec'd competitively with other ultrabooks. Not to mention the fact that in FCP it will perform better than significantly more powerful hardware running Adobe ___/other.

[BuckGup]

Yeah you can have 10 cables in one so include all the old connectors people used and have 1 or 2 type C connectors. Best of both worlds

[Dash Lambda]

My problem with it (aside from dropping the SD card reader, not sure if that's new but it's stupid) is that Apple's showing a complete disregard for usability.

 

No matter how good USB-C is, no matter what it can do or how well it does it, it's a new standard that's very uncommon. You'll need to carry around adapters, sacrifice one peripheral for another, worry about compatibility when you shouldn't have to, etc...

 

Apple is making a product, a tool for people use, and especially if it's being called "pro," it should be designed to maximize usefulness. Moving to Type-C is great, but forcing their customers to switch entirely even though it sacrifices that usefulness is precisely what makes me hate Apple. Their products aren't designed for people to use, they're not designed to work well, they're not designed to fit, they're just designed to force their customers to do something while Apple makes more money.

 

EDIT: I should also add that the iPhone 7 is using the lightning port. What's the point to having one connector if they don't even keep it consistent in their own goddamn products?

[Enderman]

36 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

People would rather have a mac that has 2 type A and 2 type c ports, that way in a couple years they'll only actually have two useful ports.

Nobody would switch to C if they had the option to stay on A.

 

33 minutes ago, huilun02 said:

My mice, keyboard and printer are all on type A. Their non-detachable cables and wireless dongles are all type A. There isn't even a type C variant.

Or are you going to tell us to swap out all our stuff to something really niche that has or accepts a type C cable?

And yet the gall to say it is not expensive...

 

What you want us to bend over for the sake of embracing type C?

My mouse has a detachable cable. So does my printer. And my DJ controller. And my monitor. And my speakers. Many modern keyboards are starting to be too.

An adapter or cable is not expensive.

You don't need to swap the entire thing, but sometime in the future you will.

I'm assuming you no longer use a PS2 keyboard, right??

 

22 minutes ago, jaybob85 said:

Its all well and good ranting and raving about how good USB type C really is, but one major problem still lies in the case that USB type C is still in infancy and in another 2 years or so they will probably bring out an even better connection type to cause even more problems with connecting devices.

I don't think you understand how many decades USB-A has been around for.

Also, this topic is about the IO only, so you can keep the other apple hate and rants out of it, thanks.

[tlink]

47 minutes ago, Enderman said:

The USB-C connector is finalized. The USB 3.1 protocol might not, but that is irrelevant since the ports on the macbook are Thunderbolt 3.

Even if USB creates 3.2 or 3.5 or whatever, it will still be compatible through the type C connector with thunderbolt 3.

I can agree that they should have provided docks or cables for such a bold move, like they did with the iphone.

 

The port on the macbook is only USB-C  3.0. This severely limits it's compatibility, and does require adapters for displays. There is also only 1 port, and without daisy chaining you NEED to use adapters.

The USB-C with thunderbolt 3 means you can plug in many devices into one port without adapters as long as the devices have a passthrough.

The USB-C monitor and storage device showed at the conference were passtrough. Something like a mouse would not be passthrough.

The monitor also had a full USB-C dock built in to plug in more stuff into the daisy chain.

 

All those things you said, plug into a second display, printer, etc... will require a USB-C to B cable or C to HDMI or something like that, yes.

But that will be replacing HDMI to HDMI or USB-A to B cables, so you still only have the same amount of cable clutter as you had before.

In the near future, with more USB C on devices, you can start getting rid of those cables and only using C to C cables.

It will take a couple years, but now with the MBP using only USB it will be happening much sooner than it would otherwise have, which is great for everybody.

Since you're not an apple customer, you get the option of just waiting and switching directly to USB C to C once many devices carry it. Then you can thank apple for speeding up adoption rate.

PS. most laptops and ultrabooks have not had ethernet ports for years, I don't see that as a downside anymore.

 

Again, if they put HDMI or type A or other stuff then nobody would want to try USB-C because it is out of their comfort zone, everyone would stick to the known stuff.

Headphone jack is good that they kept it

 

A USB A to C adapter is not expensive, and a USB cable with a type C connector on the end instead of type A is also not expensive.

If you have enough devices that use it you can get rid of all your USB A cables altogether and just use C.

At the end of the day, you end up with the same amount of cables you had before, just type C.

 

Also, a device does not need "output to USB-C" it just needs any kind of output.

For example, my mouse is micro USB to USB A. I can just buy a micro USB to USB-C cable and throw away the old cable.

 

Now people are actually going to be buying products that use USB-C, so when shopping for a new keyboard you would get a USB-C one that works fine.

Or get a keyboard with a removable cable (of which there are tons) and then buy a micro USB to USB-C cable, or USB-B to USB-C cable, or whatever it uses.

No need for adapters.

I can agree the lack of SD card is disappointing.

 

Your argument of "but I also might use a monitor, better bring a type C to display port and hdmi." is what I tried to clear up in this topic, but I guess it wasn't clear enough.

YES this is what is going to happen, instead of having a displayport cable, an HDMI cable, and a USB A cable, now you have a type C to DP cable, type C to HDMI, and type C to. You end up carrying around the same amount of cables, not more. In the near future, more devices will use only USB-C and you won't need all those cables, you will only need a couple C to C cables.

THIS is what progress is, whether you like it or not we need to switch to USB C to make this possible. Yes it is forcing the apple customers to buy a bunch of additional cables upfront, but with thousands of people buying those laptops you will see a huge surge of USB-C compatible devices. You cna see a few examples in the conference, like a monitor, an external drive, etc...

 

I have seen people using 5+ year old macbooks and they were working great. If you maintain your product, there is no reason why it can't last you more than 3 years.

Yes it won't really be powerful enough for professionals in 3 years, but in order to get people moving to USB-C you need to pressure them by making it the only option, THEN people will start buying into it. If you're not a macbook pro customer, then you don't even need to worry about this, because they are the ones that will start manufacturers producing more USB-C on their devices.

 

Also, the reason for 4 ports instead of just 1, is because certain things like the 5k displays use up a lot of bandwidth, so you would need to use other ports if you want stuff like multiple displays, or plug in a USB drive directly into the laptop instead of daisy chaining it to the monitor.

 

If the laptop had A connectors then nobody would be forced to switch and it would basically make 4 useless ports on the macbook as everyone tries to plug everything into the A connector since it is what they are familiar with.

Also, Yes 4 USB-C would have been a better option for the 13".

Personally I have not tried that new keyboard, so no comment

 

Actually, you can easily tell what kind of USB ports you have.

All the connectors will support everything is they are thunderbolt 3 USB-C, or support only USB if they are USB 3.1 type-C.

 

So there is really only two options, the Thunderbolt ports on stuff like the laptops, monitors, and external storage, and then there is the regular USB 3.1 only devices like your phone, a USB drive, a peripheral, etc... The type of stuff that would would plug into a "host" to use.

 

This is pretty much what you just said, one type C connector has thunderbolt and can do everything, and one type C connector is USB only and is used on peripherals and that type of stuff with no daisy chaining. I don't understand what "optional crap" you're talking about.

but its not, the nexus 6p has an usb type c connector but does not have usb 3.1 specs, it cannot supply 100 watts of power over it etc. its just an usb 2.0 connection over a type c port. same goes for the oneplus 2 and oneplus 3 i believe if not every usb type c phone out there. and wasn't a lot of the usb type c stuff optional? i remember that analog audio for example was optional and 100 watts of power probably is optional too, i don't think the intel nuc can supply 100 watts of power to anything over usb type c.

[Enderman]

7 minutes ago, tlink said:

but its not, the nexus 6p has an usb type c connector but does not have usb 3.1 specs, it cannot supply 100 watts of power over it etc. its just an usb 2.0 connection over a type c port. same goes for the oneplus 2 and oneplus 3 i believe if not every usb type c phone out there. and wasn't a lot of the usb type c stuff optional? i remember that analog audio for example was optional and 100 watts of power probably is optional too, i don't think the intel nuc can supply 100 watts of power to anything over usb type c.

That's because it's a phone, it's an "end device" and you use the cable for data transfer or charging.

You can't charge a phone at 100W, so it doesn't need 100W.

This is because it is a type C connector with a USB 2 interface.

 

The USB C ports on the macbook pro are thunderbolt 3, not USB 2.0 or 3.0 or 3.1.

This means you can plug ANY type of usb device into it, HDMI, or displayport, and they will all work natively.

The only requirement is the type C connector.

 

Monitors and storage devices that support daisy chaining also have the USB-C thunderbolt 3 connection, which allows all the above stuff.

Things like mice, other peripherals, don't need USB-C thunderbolt 3, because you aren't going to be attaching a monitor to your mouse.

Although it would be nice to plug a phone into a display using USB-C, hopefully we will probably see thunderbolt USB-C on phones very soon too.

[zMeul]

2 hours ago, VerticalDiscussions said:

Also the friggin headphone jack is still there people, alongside 4 futuristic ports!

4 futuristic ports that will need bunch of cables and adapters to stay relevant

well done! not!

[Bleedingyamato]

5 hours ago, zMeul said:

 

Yikes!  Wtf...    I'm curious to know why Anker would sell a cable that they had to know was not only defective but outright dangerous to use.

 

I'm also surprised they would do that because I use some of their rechargeable battery packs and they all work great.

 

The Anker battery packs I have are pretty good so far as I can tell.  They're supposed to be slightly more efficient than other brands and claim to adapt output to suit the device being charged so you don't try to overcharge a iPhone for example.  Best of all they're sooo much cheaper than those ridiculously overpriced mophie (I think I spelled that right.) battery packs.  

 

Aside from the oldest Anker battery pack getting rather warm when charging a device or being charged itself and I assume having a diminished capacity due to age it still does work.  I've never had a device get damaged from being charged by Anker battery pack so far as I know.

 

 

[Enderman]

Just now, Bleedingyamato said:

Yikes!  Wtf...    I'm curious to know why Anker would sell a cable that they had to know was not only defective but outright dangerous to use.

 

I'm also surprised they would do that because I use some of their rechargeable battery packs and they all work great.

Anyone can make an engineering mistake. Look at Samsung.

[zMeul]

1 minute ago, Bleedingyamato said:

I'm curious to know why Anker would sell a cable that they had to know was not only defective but outright dangerous to use

had to know!?

there's no standardized testing methodology for USB type C cables - that's where the problem lies

[SnowyMus]

11 hours ago, Enderman said:

So this is mostly about the wan show, but I have seen several other people also just hate on apple without actually understanding why the macbook pro has (what I would call) the best I/O on a device ever made.

 

1)

First of all, some people said they can't plug their UBS devices into it without an adapter.

This is not true. The ports are still USB ports, just with the new C connector.

All USB devices can be plugged in without any active adapters.

Devices with a removable cable can just have a cable replaced with a USB-C to whatever, instead of the regular USB-A to whatever.

Stuff like USB drives with a fixed connector will need an adapter, but in the future all USB devices will use the C connector anyway.

...

Here's my take on it. A lot of people are still using type-A devices that have no separate type-C cable. For example, most flash drives have the connector built into the board and you can't just swap it for a type-C connector. If you want to use that flash drive, you'll need a USB type-A port, or an adapter. Most wired mice also have a non-removable type-A cable. While I'm very happy that Apple is trying to embrace Thunderbolt 3 (frankly, everyone should be doing this), this change may inconvenience many people. I feel it would have been better if they left at least one type-A port for this generation.

 

Apple is very well known for swiftly axing things they consider deprecated, which isn't always a bad thing, really. They stopped using 1024 for file size units a very long time ago, while Windows is stuck on this system (except for Bing, Cortana, and a few API functions which use 1000). They also helped kill off the floppy and took out the optical drive from all of their newer (and some of their older) Macs. Even software built by Xcode, unless manually specified, will compile for only the current and future OS X versions. Also, you can't run software built exclusively for older PowerPC Macs as they removed Rosetta in OS X 10.7 (after making it optional in 10.6). And so on...

[Space Reptile]

stop whining and wait for linus to ACTUALLY REVIEW IT 

[Enderman]

6 minutes ago, Kavawuvi said:

Here's my take on it. A lot of people are still using type-A devices that have no separate type-C cable. For example, most flash drives have the connector built into the board and you can't just swap it for a type-C connector. If you want to use that flash drive, you'll need a USB type-A port, or an adapter. Most wired mice also have a non-removable type-A cable. While I'm very happy that Apple is trying to embrace Thunderbolt 3 (frankly, everyone should be doing this), this change may inconvenience many people. I feel it would have been better if they left at least one type-A port for this generation.

 

Apple is very well known for swiftly axing things they consider deprecated, which isn't always a bad thing, really. They stopped using 1024 for file size units a very long time ago, while Windows is stuck on this system (except for Bing, Cortana, and a few API functions which use 1000). They also helped kill off the floppy and took out the optical drive from all of their newer (and some of their older) Macs. Even software built by Xcode, unless manually specified, will compile for only the current and future OS X versions. Also, you can't run software built exclusively for older PowerPC Macs as they removed Rosetta in OS X 10.7 (after making it optional in 10.6). And so on...

If there was an A port, then people would not be forced to switched to C.

This is not about what is best for now, this is about speeding up adoption rates to improve the future.

 

1 minute ago, Space Reptile said:

stop whining and wait for linus to ACTUALLY REVIEW IT 

Are you talking to me or to the thousands of people whining about "noooo we hate proooogresss apple sucks" ?

[SnowyMus]

3 minutes ago, Enderman said:

If there was an A port, then people would not be forced to switched to C.

This is not about what is best for now, this is about speeding up adoption rates to improve the future.

 

Are you talking to me or to the thousands of people whining about "noooo we hate proooogresss apple sucks" ?

What's best for now can affect sales for now, affecting adoption rates for now. What would be best for now is if companies made more Thunderbolt devices, as for now, there is little point in using a type-C port except for charging or plugging in a type-A to type-C adapter.

[Enderman]

1 minute ago, Kavawuvi said:

What's best for now can affect sales for now, affecting adoption rates for now. What would be best for now is if companies made more Thunderbolt devices, as for now, there is little point in using a type-C port except for charging or plugging in a type-A to type-C adapter.

Type C is going to replacing A.

Everything will be using C in a few year, just like everything uses A right now.

Forcing people to switch is the fastest way to transition to new standards.

 

For now, a few adapters and new cables are not a huge issue imo.

[tlink]

1 hour ago, Enderman said:

That's because it's a phone, it's an "end device" and you use the cable for data transfer or charging.

You can't charge a phone at 100W, so it doesn't need 100W.

This is because it is a type C connector with a USB 2 interface.

 

The USB C ports on the macbook pro are thunderbolt 3, not USB 2.0 or 3.0 or 3.1.

This means you can plug ANY type of usb device into it, HDMI, or displayport, and they will all work natively.

The only requirement is the type C connector.

 

Monitors and storage devices that support daisy chaining also have the USB-C thunderbolt 3 connection, which allows all the above stuff.

Things like mice, other peripherals, don't need USB-C thunderbolt 3, because you aren't going to be attaching a monitor to your mouse.

Although it would be nice to plug a phone into a display using USB-C, hopefully we will probably see thunderbolt USB-C on phones very soon too.

thats outright wrong, you don't use the cable for charging and data transfer, you use it as a host device aswell. you use it to connect it to printers, lan ports, displays, storage, wlan adapters, usb to sata adapters etc.

[SnowyMus]

2 minutes ago, Enderman said:

Type C is going to replacing A.

Everything will be using C in a few year, just like everything uses A right now.

Forcing people to switch is the fastest way to transition to new standards.

 

For now, a few adapters and new cables are not a huge issue imo.

You're not forcing anyone to switch if everyone is going to use adapters, anyway, as they're still on type-A. As I said, companies need to make more Thunderbolt devices to give people a reason to use the Thunderbolt ports.

[79wjd]

2 minutes ago, Enderman said:

For now, a few adapters and new cables are not a huge issue imo.

And those that have a problem don't have to buy the new Macs -- no one is forcing it on them. No computer is perfect for everyone, they all have their pros/cons.

 

People like to pretend that an Apple product that isn't the 100% perfect solution to everyone is crap. 

[Space Reptile]

1 minute ago, Enderman said:

Are you talking to me or to the thousands of people whining about "noooo we hate proooogresss apple sucks" ?

both , granted the points you listed are better and have more words , but i dont see paying 2200€ for a dualcore that lacks an dgpu progress ,

i work on those type of mashines and if you use photoshop or coreldraw , those mashines suck

(if you loose progress w/ autosave set to 15 minutes something is wrong you know) 

 

dont take it personally , but the MacBook Pro is not for Productive use 

 

 

 

 

 

and where am i supposed to plug in my tablet mouse headset and phone? 

[Bleedingyamato]

24 minutes ago, zMeul said:

had to know!?

there's no standardized testing methodology for USB type C cables - that's where the problem lies

Yeah?  It would be logical for a company to test products thoroughly before selling them to consumers.  Even if there's no standardized method for USB-C cables that doesn't stop Anker from devising their own tests and if nothing else trying the cable with various devices and usage situations to see if anything bad happens.

 

Or even like the guy in the video in your topic did and used a couple of testing things to show the cable was able to output far too much voltage.  No reason Anker couldn't have bought those testing things and replicated his tests.