AMD Mantle vs NVidia G-SYNC

[LinusTech]

I might as well weigh in on this since I tweeted this as a discussion topic:

 

Mantle:

- Unproven

- Requires no new hardware if you already have a GCN (7000+) card

- Requires developer support (but we know that at least some is coming)

- Unknown performance improvement over non-Mantle

- Takes time to implement, limited compatibility with existing hardware and fragments market, which will be a major barrier

- No support for existing titles unless ported in after the fact

- Potentially makes Linux gaming more feasible

 

G-Sync:

- Requires Kepler GPU (600 series or better)

- Requires new hardware on monitor side of things (but not that expensive to implement compared to existing scaler hardware)

- Does not require developer support & supports pretty much your entire existing library of games.

- Proven performance. Holy crap does it ever make a big difference. I'd rather play 50FPS with G-Sync than 80FPS with tearing from what I saw. Seriously..

- Requires hardware manufacturer support (at least some is coming, but not from A+ players like Samsung. I saw Philips, ASUS, BenQ, and Viewsonic on the list...)-

 

I'll discuss this more on the WAN Show this week, but let me put it this way. To all of the folks saying any of the following about G-Sync:

- a useless features

- can't convince me that lower framerates can look better

- snake oil

 

You just don't understand the technology here fully. This is ABSOLUTELY game-changing. It makes a HUGE difference. Enormous. Earth-shattering. Not open for debate. End of discussion. Unless you've tried it, (I have, you haven't at this point unless you're another journalist that was at the event) then it's best to say nothing before you make yourself look like a fool.

 

The challenges for G-Sync have to do with adoption by monitor makers, NOT to do with whether it's a GREAT technology that ideally EVERY gamer would have. For me a key factor here is going to be the availability of monitors with G-Sync that don't suck. If you can't buy an IPS panel with G-Sync, you're going to have a hard time selling someone like me who games very little compared to doing real work on his PC on it.

 

Mantle has the capability to dramatically improve performance in the traditional sense, but doesn't address the same issues that every card has the way the G-Sync does. Mantle's success rides on the implementations we see from devs like DICE with BF4. If it's awesome, then it will drive more developers to embrace it. If it sucks and it turns out to be really hard to work with, it won't.

 

So here's the summary in my mind. They're both potentially incredible. The only difference is right now we KNOW that G-Sync is incredible, and Mantle has the POTENTIAL to be incredible. We still need more information about BOTH of them before I'd be willing to drop real money on either of them, though.

[C0drm0nk33]

Both are unfortunately proprietary. 

 

I think NVidia's GSynch is going to be more relevant because it's easier to implement for each game. Mantle is probably too much work for devs that are not developing for xbone or ps4. But then again, most games are also developed for both of these platforms. 

Apparently Frostbite 3 engine used in Battlefield 4 is based on Mantle. Not sure how that works for Nvidia, whether the engine uses mantle for AMD and then uses directx for Nvidia GPU's on windows?

[Fiberton]

Clearly G-Sync, because Mantle will already die when the 20nm GPU's come out wich should be next year or the Support of the 7000/9000 will go away.

(Because thats how a Low Level API works)

With G-Sync 40FPS on an Nvidia will look better then 60FPS on AMD wich could make a mid range Nvidia GPU a better option then a High End AMD GPU.

Stable 30FPS are better then jumping higher Framerates.

AMD changes over to 20nm in 2014 and then to 14nm finfet so says their CEO,CTO, and CFO thursday. They are about to roll out more product. The API interacts with GCN which are on all AMD cards for the future. G-Sync sounds cool though just don`t think it will be a big deal. You forget that less frames means less updates of information.. If I update 10 frames a second moving in a card compared to 60.. It dont matter how smooth it looks... it will look choppy from missing material and even Nvidia knows this. Once you drop to a certain fps.. nothing keeps it smooth. G-sync is good for quick drops then pickups. FPS drops stays smooths pops back up.. low fps for long periods of time.. low amount of frame updates. In the end G-sync is good if you card is fast as hell but you are say playing crysis and you swing to your left and a huge amount of foliage has to be rendered and you get a dip in frame rate will look smooth as hell. But other than that low end card will look low end.. Never fall for marketing. Can never trust a corporation to tell you 100% truth so never trust AMD, Nvidia and Intel. I would rather see it on not a demo but a real game with massive drain on frames and bullets flying etc. Now Mantle..hrm IF and this is ALWAYS a big if many developers jump on board which we will know November 11th for the developer conference then that seals the deal if Nvidia gets stomped or not. If many developers don't give a damn then it will be in only some of the top titles.. Interesting but if there is a large acceptance then sounds awesome.

[fizzlesticks]

I'll most likely never own an AMD card so mantle doesn't really affect me and I don't see myself replacing 3 monitors anytime soon just to get GSync.

[Ps_domingo]

Like what most people say, this question is like a comparison of apples and oranges. Well, this is a comparison of 2 difference levels of software. 

 

IMHO, I think there won't be a clear winner between the 2, but if I was to choose which I would patronize more, I would have to choose G-sync. 

 

I understand that mantle is a better way to communicate to the GPU, but higher FPS does not always translate to better gaming experience. Like with what is currently happening to AMD cards, especially in crossfire, Frame times and tearing is a big problem. An API based solution like the mantle won't solve that kind of problem. I understand that AMD is working on a fix for the Issue but there is no saying how mantle can affect the current problems of AMD GPU's. Increased FPS may sound awesome and but if the current problems persists, Mantle can be deemed useless... 

 

On the other hand. I like G-sync  (I still wish N-vidia would have called it N-sync. ROFL) because what people may or may not know that the percievable FPS is limited by the refresh rates of monitors. G-sync will indeed provide a better gaming experience regardless of FPS counts. I'm pretty sure that Nvidia has thought this through and will only implement G-sync on monitors with 120 FPS or higher.

[DeViLzzz]

Neither .... how about physX on AMD cards too or AMD finally equals physX ? Now that would be something.

 

 

and as for Mantle well here is a Mantle I really care about .....



http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mantlmi01.shtml

[LinusTech]

AMD changes over to 20nm in 2014 and then to 14nm finfet so says their CEO,CTO, and CFO thursday. They are about to roll out more product. The API interacts with GCN which are on all AMD cards for the future. G-Sync sounds cool though just don`t think it will be a big deal. You forget that less frames means less updates of information.. If I update 10 frames a second moving in a card compared to 60.. It dont matter how smooth it looks... it will look choppy from missing material and even Nvidia knows this. Once you drop to a certain fps.. nothing keeps it smooth. G-sync is good for quick drops then pickups. FPS drops stays smooths pops back up.. low fps for long periods of time.. low amount of frame updates. In the end G-sync is good if you card is fast as hell but you are say playing crysis and you swing to your left and a huge amount of foliage has to be rendered and you get a dip in frame rate will look smooth as hell. But other than that low end card will look low end.. Never fall for marketing. Can never trust a corporation to tell you 100% truth so never trust AMD, Nvidia and Intel. I would rather see it on not a demo but a real game with massive drain on frames and bullets flying etc. Now Mantle..hrm IF and this is ALWAYS a big if many developers jump on board which we will know November 11th for the developer conference then that seals the deal if Nvidia gets stomped or not. If many developers don't give a damn then it will be in only some of the top titles.. Interesting but if there is a large acceptance then sounds awesome.

 

Your understanding of G-Sync isn't complete at this time.

 

G-Sync doesn't affect the frame rate in any way. It just makes the frame rate you already have not look terrible.

 

Whether you're on an NVIDIA card or an AMD equivalent your frame rate is going to fluctuate (high end or low end, they all fluctuate to a certain extend or you'd never see tearing or lag). G-Sync eliminates visual artifacts that occur when the frame rate is higher than the refresh rate and the reduced performance when you enable vsync to get rid of the visual artifacts in the first scenario.

 

It absolutely benefits anyone who sit down in front of the system to game by allowing the monitor to draw the image that the GPU has processed as quickly as possible rather than waiting for another cycle. This will actually DECREASE the latency between the GPU being ready to output and the monitor displaying it.

[LinusTech]

Neither .... how about physX on AMD cards too or AMD finally equals physX ? Now that would be something.

 

 

and as for Mantle well here is a Mantle I really care about .....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mantlmi01.shtml

 

One of these days I'll just ban you.\

 

Speaking of which, you're unbanned from the chat on Twitch now.

[amorphous714]

I believe that G-sync is better for the market as it alleviates problems entirely, like a cure, when mantle is just a bandage over an old wound. I see the issues G-sync supposedly fixes in Planetside 2 whenever I play it. It always feels laggy and juttery/stuttery despite the framerate being a constant 60 until large battles, where it mostly stays around 45, but the entire experience is equivalent to one of 30 fps. This should not happen. ever. Despite mantle and its performance boosts, if I get a 30 fps experience out of a 60 fps game, then there is no point.

[Hobox]

G-Sync is a game changer and required before we move onto larger resolution screens. Mantle is nice but without support from Nvidia and Intel will not go far, without that support it will fix one problem for developers only to create another. If it develops and Nvidia and Intel get behind it then it could be huge.

Mantle COULD be such a powerful tool that it completely tips the balance though. If done properly it could provide such a huge gap in graphics that there's no reason whatsoever to go Nvidia until they provide a similar tool or they both support like a Mantle 2.0. Of course, that's best case scenario, but I can dream.

[LinusTech]

Did you even read what he said? He clearly stated that people who claim  the lower FPS will AWLAYS look worse should not respond, and that is what you are doing. So far Linus has always been honest and true to his word, so when he says that g-sync makes 50 FPS look better than 80, I will believe him, and you should too.

 

Based on the length of this post and the timestamp, I would guess that he was already typing before my post was in the thread.

[capawesome9870]

the thing about AMD's Mantel is that it is OPEN and Nvidia or a third party could come in and add some code to the Mantel API to allow for the same/similar "metal" programming that would happen on AMD GCN cards win-win.  on the other hand Nvidia's GSync will only work on Nvidia 6xx and higher; and will probably be Nvidia exclusive. 

[LinusTech]

Mantle COULD be such a powerful tool that it completely tips the balance though. If done properly it could provide such a huge gap in graphics that there's no reason whatsoever to go Nvidia until they provide a similar tool or they both support like a Mantle 2.0. Of course, that's best case scenario, but I can dream.

 

Based on some of the rumoured performance improvements I've heard... It could be massively game-changing... I just need to see it in person before I believe it.

 

That's something NVIDIA did really well with their event. They actually had in on hand for us to play with it. I kinda wish AMD would have waited to unveil Mantle until we could actually see it in action. Until they do that, it's all just "in theory"

[PCPlus]

Does this mean that monitors with higher refresh rates like 120Hz+ experience less tearing because they can keep up more with the graphics card drawing frames?

[LinusTech]

the thing about AMD's Mantel is that it is OPEN and Nvidia or a third party could come in and add some code to the Mantel API to allow for the same/similar "metal" programming that would happen on AMD GCN cards win-win.  on the other hand Nvidia's GSync will only work on Nvidia 6xx and higher; and will probably be Nvidia exclusive. 

 

Actually my understanding of Mantle is that it wouldn't make much sense for NVIDIA to try to leverage it...

 

And NV has not precluded allowing other GPU manufacturers (AMD, Intel or others) to license it. I really hope they do offer it for a very reasonable licensing fee...

[DeViLzzz]

One of these days I'll just ban you.\

 

Speaking of which, you're unbanned from the chat on Twitch now.

Thanks for unbanning me.  As for my comments on Mantle I was just being truthful.  Mickey Mantle was a great player and truthfully I loved using him in baseball sims so for me that is what Mantle means to me.  I also did say I would just hope AMD would give us physX or something exactly the same as Nvidia cuz then it would make my choice simpler in buying a card.  If AMD had a card that was an equivalent to what Nvidia offers and were more affordable or even the same well then I would definitely buy them for my personal rig.  I didn't name my kid partly after AMD for no reason.

[Fiberton]

Your understanding of G-Sync isn't complete at this time.

 

G-Sync doesn't affect the frame rate in any way. It just makes the frame rate you already have not look terrible.

 

Whether you're on an NVIDIA card or an AMD equivalent your frame rate is going to fluctuate (high end or low end, they all fluctuate to a certain extend or you'd never see tearing or lag). G-Sync eliminates visual artifacts that occur when the frame rate is higher than the refresh rate and the reduced performance when you enable vsync to get rid of the visual artifacts in the first scenario.

 

It absolutely benefits anyone who sit down in front of the system to game by allowing the monitor to draw the image that the GPU has processed as quickly as possible rather than waiting for another cycle. This will actually DECREASE the latency between the GPU being ready to output and the monitor displaying it.

Hrm interesting,  That would be great but only bad thing is we wont be able to get our cake and eat it too. If it is as awesome as this THEN AMD will never be allowed to have it. Mantle does seem great to me as I remember what happened when glide came out. .. Damn AMD , DAMN NV hehe 

[Fiberton]

Based on the length of this post and the timestamp, I would guess that he was already typing before my post was in the thread.

Correct I seen it much later sorry I have been watching linus on youtube for many years.. sounds so creepy am I right ? hahaha" Climbing in yo windows " haha

[C0drm0nk33]

Mantle COULD be such a powerful tool that it completely tips the balance though. If done properly it could provide such a huge gap in graphics that there's no reason whatsoever to go Nvidia until they provide a similar tool or they both support like a Mantle 2.0. Of course, that's best case scenario, but I can dream.

Yes, I know I reckon AMD set about creating mantle as means of combating micro stuttering as draw calls are major cause of frame latency. Reducing the draw call bottle necks and in turn frame latency spikes. On the other hand it doesn't address display lag so much and screen tearing, things addressed by looking at the monitor side of things which Nvidia has done with G-sync.

[Kobz360]

Neither .... how about physX on AMD cards too or AMD finally equals physX ? Now that would be something.

 

 

and as for Mantle well here is a Mantle I really care about .....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mantlmi01.shtml

I'll be completely honest. PhysX at the moment is not something I would consider a factor when I'd make the decision on what card to get. It's just way to proprietary and there's definitely not enough games that utilise, let alone utilise it well to even impact my decision to the slightest. PhysX is not a necessity and I'm sure a lot of people would agree.

[Trollzarz]

Mantle cause I have a high end amd gpu in my laptop and most laptops don't experience tearing

[amorphous714]

I'll be completely honest. PhysX at the moment is not something I would consider a factor when I'd make the decision on what card to get. It's just way to proprietary and there's definitely not enough games that utilise, let alone utilise it well to even impact my decision to the slightest. PhysX is not a necessity and I'm sure a lot of people would agree.

Seeing FLEX in action will open a whole new level of gameplay mechanics and ease the production process in games. Having all physics, especially newer tech like complete soft bodies, liquids, cloth, ect. being hardware accelerated and interacting with each other is very impressive and can be used to make extremely cool areas in games. Oceans, large rivers, foliage, or anything else could benefit from this technology.

[C0drm0nk33]

Mantle cause I have a high end amd gpu in my laptop and most laptops don't experience tearing

Tearing can be combated with V-sync at the cost of increased display lag.

It's possible that either you don't have the resolution to notice the tearing, pushing the system with more intense gaming or using v-sync to remove the issue at the cost of increased lag.

[Kajornkeat]

I think G-sync dose make a difference. When I see this video from HardwareCanucks, it is pretty impressing. I can notice immediately is less tearing and smoother graphic. Even with youtube 30fps thing, it still noticeably different between them. Only thing make me curious is that they use different PC = different program, different games and etc, so I don't really know if there is anything behind the scene . Have to wait for more reviews from Linus   

http://youtu.be/GtYqG7Xl-SU?t=21m11s

 

Also, Linus, you did a really great jobs covering the event. Thank you for your hard work. 

[Scia]

I honestly am more excited for Mantle.

I'm not planing on buying a 175$ update kit for g.synch, and at least from what Slick said on the WAN show, it's TN only [at least for now]. So, no care.

 

While Nvidia is screwing up one thing after another at the moment especially on Linux [which will soon be my main boot-to-OS] I won't buy Nvidia cards anyways.

 

And tbh, a full HW_access API, and the use of upto 8 cores, makes Mantle a big deal [yet ofc in theory as noone has seen what it actually does]. While g.synch seems to be the next "3D vision / 144hz monitor"... Using a 120hz benq xl2420t and I couldnt care less for it next to my pb278q ^^