"Brexit"

[Droidbot]

15 minutes ago, colonel_mortis said:

I have closed the poll for now, because releasing the results of an exit poll before voting has closed (at 10pm tonight) is illegal under UK law. You are still free to voice your opinions in this topic, but you can't post how many people expressed support for either side.

I will (if I remember) reopen the poll at 10pm. The difference between this poll and the official pre-election polls is interesting.

The Pirate Bay wasn't affected by US laws, as the server was in Sweden.

This isn't affected by the UK laws, as the server is in the US.

 

Checkmate

[Centurius]

46 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

That's only part of the arguments I've heard. The main one that actually makes sense is that the UK remaining in the EU represents a lost of sovereignty and self determination. The EU is set up in a way that can basically dictate laws to all members, without democratically elected representatives and even without any sort of majority being reached.

 

The EU currently does not uses this to affect much of other countries laws and such however in the case of immigration it gets more touchy given the current state of affair with the Muslim refugee* crisis. 

 

Personally, even though I heard very good counter arguments to all of this (Chief among them being representative democracy is all but a fucking fallacy anyway and how the EU is a basic deadlock that barely moves anywhere when it comes to policies and such) I think the underlying principles, that a country cannot even aspire in principle to democracy because of some trade agreement with other European nations, is just basically an indefensible position.

 

*I say "refugee" because while incidents of bigotry inspired violence by people who came in declaring themselves refugees have been almost universally NOT actual refugees and just opportunistic economical migrants coming from all over the world except Syria. Even some simple nationality fact checking could have prevented some of the incidents all over Germany, Sweden, etc. but that's deemed to politically incorrect to check if someone is just claiming to be coming from a war zone is actually not just a douchebag taking advantage of the open borders policy. 

Wrong, the European Union has a democratic basis in every governing body within it and not a single treaty change can pass without all member states agreeing or a regulation without majorities in two chambers. It's the definition of a representative democracy.

[colonel_mortis]

1 minute ago, Droidbot said:

The Pirate Bay wasn't affected by US laws, as it was in Sweden.

This isn't affected by the UK laws, as the server is in the US.

 

Checkmate

I'm well aware that the site is not required to follow UK law, but that doesn't mean that we should break it just because we can.

[Centurius]

2 minutes ago, colonel_mortis said:

I'm well aware that the site is not required to follow UK law, but that doesn't mean that we should break it just because we can.

It's not exactly an exit poll though, at best it's a European-wide opinion poll with even people outside of Europe voting.

[Misanthrope]

4 minutes ago, Centurius said:

Wrong, the European Union has a democratic basis in every governing body within it and not a single treaty change can pass without all member states agreeing or a regulation without majorities in two chambers. It's the definition of a representative democracy.

 

Not really:

 

 

 

 

 

[Rupe]

16 minutes ago, Centurius said:

It's not exactly an exit poll though, at best it's a European-wide opinion poll with even people outside of Europe voting.

Your right, by definition an Exit Poll is a poll taken by people as there leaving a polling station, so nothing wrong with this poll on this site at all. No need to shut it down

 

exit poll

noun

plural noun: exit polls

1. an opinion poll of people leaving a polling station, asking how they voted.

[Centurius]

19 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

 

Not really:

 

I figured you were going to come with those two.

 

The first one refers to the democratically elected governments of the other 27 member states rejecting additional changes to the Treaties. Colorado doesn't get to change the constitution of the United States on its own. As for the examples in the second part, countries have repeatedly gotten exemptions for specific Treaty provisions(which is why the UK doesn't have the euro right now and isn't a member of the Schengen area). Even then it wasn't Brussels ignoring results but rather their own national governments. 

 

Decision-making in the European Union happens in 5 bodies.

 

The European Council, composed of the democratically elected heads of state or government of all 28 member states. The subject matter they deal with usually requires unanimity and approval in the legislature of each member state. Democratic.

The European Commission, essentially a cabinet composed of 28 members(one for each member state). The Commission is decided upon by the European Council and requires approval from the European Parliament. Democratic.

The Council of the European Union, composed of 28 democratically appointed ministers from the member states on the subject matter currently under discussion(be it Agriculture, Immigration, etc.). Voting here happens by something called a qualified majority which requires at least 55% of all member states representing at least 65% of the European population. Democratic.

The European Parliament, just like any other parliament directly elected by the people of the European Union and votes by majorities. Has the power to send away the Commission, decide on the European budget, etc. Democratic.

The Court of Justice of the European Union(Not to be confused with the European Court of Human Rights which is part of the Council of Europe that has nothing to do with the EU at all). Appointed by the governments of the member states(primarily via the European Council) and can only rule on matters covered by the Treaties that required unanimity in the first place. Democratic.

 

The EU would be undemocratic if a single member state could dictate terms for the other 27.

[Misanthrope]

So by that logic, countries should have only federal and nationwide law too since state and municipalities have no right to provide for what their local citizens need and decide because the rest of the country says "Fuck them".

 

You're wrong: that is not Democracy. That is Collectivism. Appealing to a vast majority is desirable but not on such a wide scale that it is basically rendered meaningless for the interest of people at the Nation level (let alone the state and city levels).

 

This kind of thinking is how you end with massive, unrestricted immigration of unskilled workers.

[Centurius]

1 minute ago, Misanthrope said:

So by that logic, countries should have only federal and nationwide law too since state and municipalities have no right to provide for what their local citizens need and decide because the rest of the country says "Fuck them".

 

You're wrong: that is not Democracy. That is Collectivism. Appealing to a vast majority is desirable but not on such a wide scale that it is basically rendered meaningless for the interest of people at the Nation level (let alone the state and city levels).

 

This kind of thinking is how you end with massive, unrestricted immigration of unskilled workers.

You'd have an argument if the European Union wasn't based on subsidiarity which states that the European Union may only act on areas where individual member states are insufficient. That translates into free movement of peoples as you can't have a common market without services and people freely moving or centralized standards for products as you can't have a product be illegal in one country and legal in another if you want a common market. Note, that the Brexit camp wants to keep access to the common market due to its trade benefits and which means it will still have to abide by these rules. You don't see Brussels telling London how to fight crime or that it needs to hand over healthcare.

[Misanthrope]

2 minutes ago, Centurius said:

You'd have an argument if the European Union wasn't based on subsidiarity which states that the European Union may only act on areas where individual member states are insufficient. That translates into free movement of peoples as you can't have a common market without services and people freely moving or centralized standards for products as you can't have a product be illegal in one country and legal in another if you want a common market. Note, that the Brexit camp wants to keep access to the common market due to its trade benefits and which means it will still have to abide by these rules. You don't see Brussels telling London how to fight crime or that it needs to hand over healthcare.

That's the remain and the EU's argument. Yet we have a trade agreement with the US and Canada while the US has basically kept the same really restrictive travel rules to us Mexicans (Hence the constant illegal immigration) and even Canada restricted access to us for a while (They've since eased up their restrictions again).

 

Trade agreements are 100% possible without wide open borderless nations. We benefit from it. US corporations also benefit (not the people of course) and Canada has significant mining operations here in Mexico as well. We in turn do a lot of manufacturing and other such things here now. To the point that we have been US #1 Trade partner and almost always among the top 3 trading partners and that would continue to be EVEN IF Trump builds a wall and even tougher immigration make no mistake.

[Centurius]

1 minute ago, Misanthrope said:

That's the remain and the EU's argument. Yet we have a trade agreement with the US and Canada while the US has basically kept the same really restrictive travel rules to us Mexicans (Hence the constant illegal immigration) and even Canada restricted access to us for a while (They've since eased up their restrictions again).

 

Trade agreements are 100% possible without wide open borderless nations. We benefit from it. US corporations also benefit (not the people of course) and Canada has significant mining operations here in Mexico as well. We in turn do a lot of manufacturing and other such things here now. To the point that we have been US #1 Trade partner and almost always among the top 3 trading partners and that would continue to be EVEN IF Drumpf builds a wall and even tougher immigration make no mistake.

NAFTA is pretty much a joke, it isn't nearly as beneficial or effective to its member states as the European Union is and leaves a lot of red tape in place for international trading.

[Misanthrope]

4 minutes ago, Centurius said:

NAFTA is pretty much a joke, it isn't nearly as beneficial or effective to its member states as the European Union is and leaves a lot of red tape in place for international trading.

It is a trade agreement as as non-beneficial as you consider it the point stands: it works for the largest economy in the world with it's red tape, with the "limited mobility" in place, etc. 

 

Maybe, just maybe it's because there's a lot more to trade than just saying "Fuck borders, fuck local regulations we must be A SINGLE ENTITY....for Business sake....mostly...though not really.

[Centurius]

1 minute ago, Misanthrope said:

It is a trade agreement as as non-beneficial as you consider it the point stands: it works for the largest economy in the world with it's red tape, with the "limited mobility" in place, etc. 

 

Maybe, just maybe it's because there's a lot more to trade than just saying "Fuck borders, fuck local regulations we must be A SINGLE ENTITY....for Business sake....mostly...though not really.

The United States has the mineral wealth and production capacity to stand on its own. It can fulfill its own needs, NAFTA works for it because it allows for cheaper labour to be used. It cannot be compared to the United Kingdom which does not come close to meeting its own resource needs and where one of the most important sectors is dependent on having access to a market that allows for the free transfer of goods, services, capital and people. Borders remain in place where the UK is concerned, and yes if you want a product(or service for that matter) made in one country to be able to move to 27 other ones you do need the same regulations in place everywhere.

[colonel_mortis]

I've reopened the poll, since it does ask for European opinions too (I had originally misread the OP as asking for the opinions of members from the UK only).

It should be noted though that the exit poll laws would cover something like this, as well as mining data from social media, so while you're probably unlikely to get into trouble for it, I would still advise against publishing any information about what other people have voted for (though publishing what you have voted for is, as far as I know, allowed).

 

Note: I am not a lawyer, and this does not constitute legal advice, etc etc.

[Misanthrope]

On 23/06/2016 at 10:57 AM, Centurius said:

The United States has the mineral wealth and production capacity to stand on its own. It can fulfill its own needs, NAFTA works for it because it allows for cheaper labour to be used. It cannot be compared to the United Kingdom which does not come close to meeting its own resource needs and where one of the most important sectors is dependent on having access to a market that allows for the free transfer of goods, services, capital and people. Borders remain in place where the UK is concerned, and yes if you want a product(or service for that matter) made in one country to be able to move to 27 other ones you do need the same regulations in place everywhere.

Which means there will be an additional, yet not insurmountable additional effort needed by the UK. Brexit doesn't denies this, it just states that it's predicted adverse effect is over stated and that the alternative it's just not worth it.

 

Ultimately, if the UK decides they're ok with the added Burden, shouldn't the EU as the "democratic" entity you claim it is be ok with it? Or is the EU gonna take a page from their now favorite books the Hadit and the Quran and require death for apostasy? 

 

Here's more reading material by the way:

 

http://heatst.com/uk/6-times-eu-bosses-sneered-at-the-electorate/

 

Quote

We need to add to what the Nation States do. There are challenges which the Nation States cannot meet............we have to stand together as a United Continent. The Nation State has reached its limit....the Nation State economy reached its limit thirty years ago. We must have strong institutions to protect our future.

 

Quote

Decisions taken by the most democratic institutions in the world are very often wrong

 

 

[Centurius]

9 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Which means there will be an additional, yet not insurmountable additional effort needed by the UK. Brexit doesn't denies this, it just states that it's predicted adverse effect is over stated and that the alternative it's just not worth it.

 

Ultimately, if the UK decides they're ok with the added Burden, shouldn't the EU as the "democratic" entity you claim it is be ok with it? Or is the EU gonna take a page from their now favorite books the Hadit and the Quran and require death for apostasy? 

No one ever said that if the people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union they would be forced to stay in. As for the second part, I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. Nice attempt at a straw man though.

3 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Here's more reading material by the way:

 

http://heatst.com/uk/6-times-eu-bosses-sneered-at-the-electorate/

 

 

 

 

Oh hey, individuals with no ability to enforce their will on their own have opinions.

[Misanthrope]

1 minute ago, Centurius said:

No one ever said that if the people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union they would be forced to stay in. As for the second part, I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. Nice attempt at a straw man though.

Oh hey, individuals with no ability to enforce their will on their own have opinions.

No straw man just a joke, relax.

[Mug]

Just went down the polling station, voted remain of course 

[Kobathor]

8 hours ago, kris2340k said:

Im only a few minutes in and I hope this remains mature but first thoughts are this is very one sided, going by the assumptions of worst case scenarios, assuming the super state is forceful, almost as if its a nazi takeover of some sort.

My first questions are:

1:An EU superstate is not a good idea while the EU is as undemocratic as it is, yes that is one of the disadvantages, and calling it a superstate is almost like calling the us a huge gun. Remembering its not the only country to allow them.
2.If Britain doesn't leave now. Another vote can be held later on, at this moment with the amount of contradicting information about Im not trusting anything.
3. they'll be forced into this superstate. When has any country ever been forced into doing anything. Maybe groups, maybe wars but no country is ever forced.
4. About the EU army, that is a single persons view. If it becomes an actual thing I will then promise to vote leave, but not over speculation
Again apollogies and will watch the rest of the video

Should watch the whole thing. He talks about why the EU would want to force countries into being a part of the superstate. As long as the UK is in the EU, they have (little to) no say in what happens to their country. They will be outvoted every time they try to oppose something. How will they be forced? Well, the European Army that is already being planned. He talks about the "necessary" creation of the superstate (necessary only for big politicians. He talks about it.) and the creation of the EU army. If you guys don't leave now, I really don't think you will hold another vote in the near future. Once you guys switch to the Euro, you'll be in too deep.

 

The EU can not be reformed from the inside, like some people believe. Remember, even if Britain tries to change things, you guys are a tiny minority, and the rest of the EU tends to have different ideals compared to the Brits. You will not be able to change anything. At all. And that sucks, but it's just the way it is.

[Rodinski]

They need to leave. 

 

I'm a Canadian and the amount of back doors that is coming through for future EU members is disturbing. I don't agree with people taking advantage of another's success because of their "laziness". 

 

The greatness that will come from leaving will create a better EU. It will force changes within the system to make it work for the current EU members. It's a win-win. 

[Secret Hitler]

2 hours ago, colonel_mortis said:

I have closed the poll for now, because releasing the results of an exit poll before voting has closed (at 10pm tonight) is illegal under UK law. You are still free to voice your opinions in this topic, but you can't post how many people expressed support for either side.

I will (if I remember) reopen the poll at 10pm. The difference between this poll and the official pre-election polls is interesting.

To be fair, the people voting in the poll aren't all from the UK so they results would be drastically different anyway  

[foolishlywise]

I was at Jeremy Corbyn's first speech on the EU (and ended up on BBC News). The Leave camp keep banging on about the demand on our National Health Service - but the majority of staff who make the NHS what it is are migrants. The hospital that is part of my university is staffed with migrant nurses correct - so what?! They do a good job, willing to work the hours to help out whoever needs help. 

 

Second, workers rights. The minimum amount of holidays per year is set by the EU. Yep, those 28 days if you work full time are from the EU. The British government only had 14. 

 

Finally, do we REALLY want someone like Boris Johnson** leading the country? I am a Labour Party member. It seems likely in case of Brexit, Cameron may have to resign. I mean, Cameron vs Johnson - I would go with the lesser evil. 

 

Full disclosure: Politics undergraduate at a Russell Group university. Inclined to be part of the Remain camp. 

 

 

**For anyone who does not know who Boris Johnson is (ie: if you guys live abroad and haven't spectated the debacle of British Politics, here is all you need to know in one picture:

..He actually got stuck on a zip wire. Genuinely, the definition of idiot.

[CostcoSamples]

I'm Canadian, but have a lot of British ancestors.  I really badly hope that the exit vote wins.  I think most people want to cling to this idea of being united together in peace and harmony, but that is a fantasy.  The EU does not represent peace.   You have the Greek government threatening to fast track citizenship for millions of Islamic migrants if the bail out cash doesn't keep flowing.  They openly admit that many of them are terrorists and they have no idea how many.  You have out of control financial ruin looming in many EU nations, and the EU wants to fast track membership for Turkey!  Turkey, you know, that Islamic country whose human rights atrocities rival the worst of them and whose national finances are in the toilet?  Yeah, let's fast track their EU membership.  

 

The EU needs to be recognized for what it is - an attempt to consolidate political power into the hands of a few un-elected psychopaths who don't care about the average citizen any more than a farmer cares about his cattle.

 

[SurvivorNVL]

My effective opinion on all this, as an outsider, U.S. citizen and someone of direct Dutch, English, descent:  The E.U. is a bloated regulatory entity, that has usurped a great deal of national control from many nations, including their trade deals, and if the U.K. win their independence, it's a blow to the E.U. and a siren call for the Netherlands, France, Austria(next election), Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and many more to begin their own exits.  The worst thing to come from the European Union, aside from the over-regulation, and taxation, is the Euro itself.  It'd be so much healthier to have many, many independent currencies and countries competing against one another, like there once was.  Not to mention a single country, or two, in the E.U. can bring the whole thing tumbling down in terms of economic burdens(without even going in to all the welfare state burdens).(Greece, Spain, and Italy being the burdens as they head more and more toward bankruptcy.  I think Greece has done that seven times now, though.)  And another sentiment many Europeans, euroskeptics have; politicians in Brussels who don't know what it is like to live and breathe in a persons home country, partake in their culture, they shouldn't be having a say in their fishing, their business, or their life.  It's like when the U.S. tries to tell other countries what to do, and they just fold, except the E.U. and Brussels is a skip away, and not an ocean.

All in all, the E.U. should be dismantled, and all the countries should go back to being nation-states, competing and working together through trade.  NATO will likely, as will the U.N, always exist, so military cooperation is a given.  

And all of this is without even getting in to the argument and political disaster of the "immigrant" and "refugee" problem they're facing for the future.

Also it is really hot outside.  40 Celsius and I still can't sunburn.

[laminutederire]

2 hours ago, CostcoSamples said:

 

Yeah like the US funding ISIS to get better control over some resources of the middle east?

You'll always find dumb people who will only care about money and will try to leverage anything for money...

Since when Greece is trying to leverage money with a threat of giving citizenship to terrorists? Each and every terrorist attacks these pasts few years were done by our citizens, both in Europe and more recently in the US, that argument makes no sense at all, and it's just a call for hatred of the foreigners to even say that...

My only question to you is: what are you even basing your affirmation Europe is in such a bad shape?