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did humans evolve from apes?

techguru
By techguru
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Interesting, this is the first time I have seen this. Unfortunately it is a he said she said thing so I will refrain from referencing it again in a Darwin debate.

 

Direct Human intervention is still not evolution it is forced breed, if it happens on its own then I would accept it.

 

 

I am referring to Darwin's theory of adaptation. Where an organism 'adapts' to its environment. The application of which is what I do not agree to. I agree that an organism will adapt to its environment but to evolve into something entirely different? no I cannot agree to that.

There is no direct linage of evolution of ape to man but in theory only and I do not agree with the theory. 

 

That is not what I am saying.

I'm not sure if I've been misinformed, but I have the impression that Darwin did not believe that individual organisms adapted to the environment on the level of DNA - that was a theory proposed by scientists before him. And according to the logic of that theory, a dog whose tail is cut off will give birth to offspring without tails because the parent has "adapted" to the environment by losing a tail. That's not evolution.

 

Darwin's theory of evolution revolves around natural selection - if you're a bit less fit than someone else, you die, and your genes have a lower chance of spreading in the population. For example, a vast majority of stickleback fish in the sea have pelvic spines which deter large predators from swallowing them. However, in isolated freshwater, most stickleback fish don't have pelvic spines because fish with pelvic spines tend to get eaten by dragonfly larvae which catch them by their pelvic spines. This phenomenon has occurred in several freshwater stickleback fish populations throughout the world. The presence of a pelvic spine depends on a  short segment of DNA called the pitx1 enhancer. With an accidental addition or deletion of any single nucleotide in the pitx1 enhancer, that pelvic spine is gone. Single mutations are extremely common. That's why the lack of pelvic spines in freshwater populations is so consistent. 

 

It has been proven in modern day experiments with cloned mice that organisms do adapt to their environment on the level of epigenetics. Molecules such as methyl groups will, if prompted by specific stimuli in their cellular environments, latch onto certain parts of DNA to prevent that DNA from being expressed, and the presence of these methyl groups carry over in our gametes (sex cells) to our offspring. I've forgotten the details of the experiments, but I remember that cloned mice given different diets will grow to have different coat colors and metabolic characteristics  - even though they have exactly the same DNA - and offspring  inherit those acquired coat colors and metabolic characteristics even though you would expect them to start with a clean slate. 

 

If you think about it, there are actually very few differences between humans and hairier primates, and these changes could occur with strikingly few differences in DNA. Most of the differences are simply in proportions - shorter legs. More hair. Flatter nose. Larger jaw. Smaller brain. What's implausible about it?

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Posted

I have a friend who is a paleontologist and he's having great difficulty finding a church community that will accept him.

 

Anyone care to help?

 

Scientology, atheist, or realize how big of a waste of time the whole religion thing is. Also realize how corrupt the whole Pope thing is and how much is covered up

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Well that's not true, but regardless. Why would that matter if he did? It's not like he was the only one making these realizations, a large part of the reason he published On the Origin of Species when he did, was because people such as Alfred Russel Wallace, were coming to the same conclusions and were hot on his heels.

 

And the most vital point is this. Science doesn't work that way, it's a collaborative effort, you can't just release a paper like that, then simply change you mind and pretend it didn't happen.

 

A simple case of trying to play the man, because you'd have to be perverse to attempt to dismiss the overwhelming body of evidence that backs up his theory of evolution.

Go back and read my next reply.

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Interesting, this is the first time I have seen this. Unfortunately it is a he said she said thing so I will refrain from referencing it again in a Darwin debate.

 

Direct Human intervention is still not evolution it is forced breed, if it happens on its own then I would accept it.

 

 

I am referring to Darwin's theory of adaptation. Where an organism 'adapts' to its environment. The application of which is what I do not agree to. I agree that an organism will adapt to its environment but to evolve into something entirely different? no I cannot agree to that.

There is no direct linage of evolution of ape to man but in theory only and I do not agree with the theory. 

 

That is not what I am saying.

It seems like you're not planning to reply to my previous post, so I have more to add. Evolving into an entirely different species is quite possible. What's required for two organisms to be considered of two different species? The inability for the pair to give fertile offspring. Typically what prevents fertile offspring is either 

1. chromosomes significantly different in structure, or 

2. a difference in the number of chromosomes. 

     The possibility of a new species forming from chromosomes significantly different in structure is theoretically explainable by gradual, cumulative changes where a difference in a single protein each time won't result in infertility but a difference in several at the same time will. 

     What about a different number of chromosomes? How often do mutations occur which result in that? The chance for Down syndrome is 1 in 1000. Triple X syndrome - 1 in 1000. Klinefelter syndrome - 1 in 500. Turner syndrome - 1 in 1000. These proportions are fairly large, so It's not extremely unlikely that over hundreds of thousands of years, the same mutations occur often enough for a new species to form. 

 

     And also, like I said, an organism like the orangutan is scientifically considered "entirely different" and appears to be highly different from us just like a poodle appears to be highly different from a golden retriever, but most of it is just body proportion changes, such as different amounts of skin melanin, different telomere lengths (affects aging), 

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I beg to differ.

 

Sadly just a piece of propaganda from fox for their reboot of planet of the apes.

Its actually got really bad soundfx, something I didn't think they'd pull, esp in something they've shown on actual TV xD

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But the real question is: Where did apes come from?

The zoo obviously...

/s

o_____________________________________o

- snip-

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Er... not from modern apes. 

"The wheel?" "No thanks, I'll walk, its more natural" - thus was the beginning of the doom of the Human race.
Cheese monger.

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Direct Human intervention is still not evolution it is forced breed, if it happens on its own then I would accept it.

Evolution does not have to "happen on its own". There is nothing in the definition of "evolution" which specifies that it has to happen by itself without any interference from humans.

 

 

I am referring to Darwin's theory of adaptation. Where an organism 'adapts' to its environment. The application of which is what I do not agree to. I agree that an organism will adapt to its environment but to evolve into something entirely different? no I cannot agree to that.

Can you please tell me the difference between the "theory of adaptation" and the "theory of evolution"?

It seems to me like you don't know what evolution means. How do you think something adapts to its environment without evolving?

Do you agree with evolution all the way up until the point one specie becomes another one? Why is that so hard to believe? It doesn't happen overnight. If we continued to breed dogs for tens of thousands of years then it would not be that surprising that they would become a completely different species than the wolf.

When you say "evolve into something entirely different" do you imagine like a fish turning into a bird from one generation to the next? Because that's not how it happens.

 

 

There is no direct linage of evolution of ape to man but in theory only and I do not agree with the theory. 

What do you mean "no direct linage of evolution of ape to man"? There is an overwhelming amount of fossils found showing a gradual change from very primitive apes such as the sahelanthropus tchadensis. Here is a very good list in chronological order. If you don't think we evolved, what do you think happened and where do all these fossils come from?

 

 

 

That is not what I am saying.

Well you say you don't believe in evolution but you do believe in both natural selection as well as adaptation. Natural selection allows evolution so that species can adapt to their environment.

So sorry my analogy was inaccurate. You're basically saying you believe in cars, and say they have wheels, but you don't believe engines exist. How does adaptation happen without evolution? How does a car move without an engine?

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It would be factually impossible that we evolved from that species, as they still exist right now.

 

The entire idea of evolution is for a specific living thing to progress, it can't progress and leave behind it's former self.

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We possibly evolved from Dolphins, as they have extraordinary intelligence too?

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It would be factually impossible that we evolved from that species, as they still exist right now.

 

The entire idea of evolution is for a specific living thing to progress, it can't progress and leave behind it's former self.

We don't evolve from the modern apes. Both humans and modern apes evolved from the same primitive ancestor. Think of it as a family tree. Do you have an aunt or uncle? They did not die when you were born right?

Modern apes are your uncles and aunts, while your grandparents are the primitive ancestor we share with them.

 

 

It is also possible for a part of a species to continue evolving while another part of it stays the same. Let's take bananas as an example. This is what an undomesticated banana (as in, a wild banana) looks like:

undomesticated_wild-banana.jpg

 

The yellow and delicious bananas you are familiar with only exists because of many years of selectively breeding only the bananas with few and small seeds, and a sweet taste. The wild banana evolved (with the help of humans) into the banana we all know today. In fact, our cultivated bananas do not contain mature seeds at all. But just because the wild banana evolved into the regular banana does not mean all wild bananas died out. They still exist in the wild.

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No they didn't. Both Apes and Humans evolved from the "Missing Link"

missing link? we have common ancestor which lived about 20 million years ago

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It would be factually impossible that we evolved from that species, as they still exist right now.

 

The entire idea of evolution is for a specific living thing to progress, it can't progress and leave behind it's former self.

that was really stupid what you just said. we have a common ancestor which lived about 20 million years ago, and we humans and monkeys have been evolving ever since.

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How can people even be arguing about this..?

Oh, wait. There are Americans in this forum. 

 

*Slowly step backs and leaves them to their deep fried Jesus guns...*

ouch! shots fired at religious america!

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It would be factually impossible that we evolved from that species, as they still exist right now.

 

The entire idea of evolution is for a specific living thing to progress, it can't progress and leave behind it's former self.

Think of it like this. A group of primates exist in the jungle. That group grows so large and spreads so much that some of them spill into the prairies, so that now there are two groups: one group in the jungle, and another in the prairie. Now, the group in the jungle doesn't change much because it's already lived there for hundreds of thousands of years with no environmental change. But the group in the prairie starts evolving, with some dying and some living based on their natural advantages. Voila. You now have a new species that evolved from another "old" species, and both species coexist - just in two different places.

 

We possibly evolved from Dolphins, as they have extraordinary intelligence too?

It's not like "Oh look, these creatures have eyes. We have eyes too - we surely must be direct descendants from them!" It's more like "We see a huge trail of fossils documenting small changes in bone structure from modern humans and their ancestors and their ancestors back over millions of years. It doesn't make sense that we didn't descend from them."

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The dog came from the T-rex just so you all know, natural evolution.

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It seems like you're not planning to reply to my previous post, so I have more to add. Evolving into an entirely different species is quite possible. What's required for two organisms to be considered of two different species? The inability for the pair to give fertile offspring. Typically what prevents fertile offspring is either 

1. chromosomes significantly different in structure, or 

2. a difference in the number of chromosomes. 

     The possibility of a new species forming from chromosomes significantly different in structure is theoretically explainable by gradual, cumulative changes where a difference in a single protein each time won't result in infertility but a difference in several at the same time will. 

     What about a different number of chromosomes? How often do mutations occur which result in that? The chance for Down syndrome is 1 in 1000. Triple X syndrome - 1 in 1000. Klinefelter syndrome - 1 in 500. Turner syndrome - 1 in 1000. These proportions are fairly large, so It's not extremely unlikely that over hundreds of thousands of years, the same mutations occur often enough for a new species to form. 

 

     And also, like I said, an organism like the orangutan is scientifically considered "entirely different" and appears to be highly different from us just like a poodle appears to be highly different from a golden retriever, but most of it is just body proportion changes, such as different amounts of skin melanin, different telomere lengths (affects aging), 

 

Sorry I have not gotten to it yet, just worked and insanely long weekend. Friday 12:00- Sat 8:00am 20hrs / Sat 4:00pm-Sun 8:00am slept most of Sunday.

I will get to it here soon.

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Humans are primates, so... yeah... we did.

Well, YOU guys all did. I'm a fox loli. I didn't evolve from anywhere.

 

Humans are basically primates that are built for one thing (other than thought) in particular that no other primate (or animal for that matter) can match us in - running.

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honestly, who gives a rat's ass about it?

Aslong that we are unable to walk together on this planet as the same species our origin will always be doubted.

May the light have your back and your ISO low.

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Evolution does not have to "happen on its own". There is nothing in the definition of "evolution" which specifies that it has to happen by itself without any interference from humans.

 

 

Can you please tell me the difference between the "theory of adaptation" and the "theory of evolution"?

It seems to me like you don't know what evolution means. How do you think something adapts to its environment without evolving?

Do you agree with evolution all the way up until the point one specie becomes another one? Why is that so hard to believe? It doesn't happen overnight. If we continued to breed dogs for tens of thousands of years then it would not be that surprising that they would become a completely different species than the wolf.

When you say "evolve into something entirely different" do you imagine like a fish turning into a bird from one generation to the next? Because that's not how it happens.

 

 

What do you mean "no direct linage of evolution of ape to man"? There is an overwhelming amount of fossils found showing a gradual change from very primitive apes such as the sahelanthropus tchadensis. Here is a very good list in chronological order. If you don't think we evolved, what do you think happened and where do all these fossils come from?

 

 

 

Well you say you don't believe in evolution but you do believe in both natural selection as well as adaptation. Natural selection allows evolution so that species can adapt to their environment.

So sorry my analogy was inaccurate. You're basically saying you believe in cars, and say they have wheels, but you don't believe engines exist. How does adaptation happen without evolution? How does a car move without an engine?

I get this shortly as well.

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No we evolved from a similar / or same ancenstor than apes

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Sample Text ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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First off this subject is not my strongest cup of tea so I will reply to the best that I can.

 

 

I'm not sure if I've been misinformed, but I have the impression that Darwin did not believe that individual organisms adapted to the environment on the level of DNA - that was a theory proposed by scientists before him. And according to the logic of that theory, a dog whose tail is cut off will give birth to offspring without tails because the parent has "adapted" to the environment by losing a tail. That's not evolution.

 

Darwin's theory of evolution revolves around natural selection - if you're a bit less fit than someone else, you die, and your genes have a lower chance of spreading in the population. For example, a vast majority of stickleback fish in the sea have pelvic spines which deter large predators from swallowing them. However, in isolated freshwater, most stickleback fish don't have pelvic spines because fish with pelvic spines tend to get eaten by dragonfly larvae which catch them by their pelvic spines. This phenomenon has occurred in several freshwater stickleback fish populations throughout the world. The presence of a pelvic spine depends on a  short segment of DNA called the pitx1 enhancer. With an accidental addition or deletion of any single nucleotide in the pitx1 enhancer, that pelvic spine is gone. Single mutations are extremely common. That's why the lack of pelvic spines in freshwater populations is so consistent. 

 

It has been proven in modern day experiments with cloned mice that organisms do adapt to their environment on the level of epigenetics. Molecules such as methyl groups will, if prompted by specific stimuli in their cellular environments, latch onto certain parts of DNA to prevent that DNA from being expressed, and the presence of these methyl groups carry over in our gametes (sex cells) to our offspring. I've forgotten the details of the experiments, but I remember that cloned mice given different diets will grow to have different coat colors and metabolic characteristics  - even though they have exactly the same DNA - and offspring  inherit those acquired coat colors and metabolic characteristics even though you would expect them to start with a clean slate. 

 

If you think about it, there are actually very few differences between humans and hairier primates, and these changes could occur with strikingly few differences in DNA. Most of the differences are simply in proportions - shorter legs. More hair. Flatter nose. Larger jaw. Smaller brain. What's implausible about it?

 

It seems like you're not planning to reply to my previous post, so I have more to add. Evolving into an entirely different species is quite possible. What's required for two organisms to be considered of two different species? The inability for the pair to give fertile offspring. Typically what prevents fertile offspring is either 

1. chromosomes significantly different in structure, or 

2. a difference in the number of chromosomes. 

     The possibility of a new species forming from chromosomes significantly different in structure is theoretically explainable by gradual, cumulative changes where a difference in a single protein each time won't result in infertility but a difference in several at the same time will. 

     What about a different number of chromosomes? How often do mutations occur which result in that? The chance for Down syndrome is 1 in 1000. Triple X syndrome - 1 in 1000. Klinefelter syndrome - 1 in 500. Turner syndrome - 1 in 1000. These proportions are fairly large, so It's not extremely unlikely that over hundreds of thousands of years, the same mutations occur often enough for a new species to form. 

 

     And also, like I said, an organism like the orangutan is scientifically considered "entirely different" and appears to be highly different from us just like a poodle appears to be highly different from a golden retriever, but most of it is just body proportion changes, such as different amounts of skin melanin, different telomere lengths (affects aging), 

 

Sorry I cannot respond to every post I get everyday. Sometimes it takes me few days.

I understand that natural selection is a part of evolution but the thing is (and I have a hard explaining this) is that I cannot see how it is possible for one species to develop entirely into another over time.

I understand all that you replied with as I have read this once or twice before in school, I am not 100% yet how I would like to respond, please read what I have below as well. I do have certain spiritual beliefs that I hold onto as well but I am not looking to involve those yet as part of the discussion I will need some time to form an argument to support my position on this.

 

Evolution does not have to "happen on its own". There is nothing in the definition of "evolution" which specifies that it has to happen by itself without any interference from humans.

 

From my understanding it does have to happen its own, forced evolution by selective breeding through Human intervention is not evolution in in own right so I cannot agree with you there it not natural selection as you point out is part of evolution theorized by Darwin.

 

Can you please tell me the difference between the "theory of adaptation" and the "theory of evolution"?

It seems to me like you don't know what evolution means. How do you think something adapts to its environment without evolving?

Do you agree with evolution all the way up until the point one specie becomes another one? Why is that so hard to believe? It doesn't happen overnight. If we continued to breed dogs for tens of thousands of years then it would not be that surprising that they would become a completely different species than the wolf.

When you say "evolve into something entirely different" do you imagine like a fish turning into a bird from one generation to the next? Because that's not how it happens.

 

I agree in evolution in a species but not one species evolving into another species this I cannot fathom or agree with.

I agree that organisms (species) will adapt to their surroundings and develop certain traits because of that adaption, just as Darwin saw in the Galapagos or different types of dogs or birds.

But saying that Humans and apes developed from the same 

 

What do you mean "no direct linage of evolution of ape to man"? There is an overwhelming amount of fossils found showing a gradual change from very primitive apes such as the sahelanthropus tchadensis. Here is a very good list in chronological order. If you don't think we evolved, what do you think happened and where do all these fossils come from?

 

I know of the skeletal evolution to early man but before that i know not much of what there. I have been attempting to not bring up my personal beliefs in this regard but staying strictly to scientific based argument. I do not think I will be able to continue this line of discussion as what you are asking me to do I cannot at this time say as it is difficult, not that I wont but I cannot with out doing 

 

 

Well you say you don't believe in evolution but you do believe in both natural selection as well as adaptation. Natural selection allows evolution so that species can adapt to their environment.

So sorry my analogy was inaccurate. You're basically saying you believe in cars, and say they have wheels, but you don't believe engines exist. How does adaptation happen without evolution? How does a car move without an engine?

 

Yes your analogy was wrong and I don't care for the added sarcasm , I do not believe in evolution as in Darwin's description per say but I did not say I believe in Adaptation or Natural selection either, I said I lean towards it.​

You seem to be taking my difference of opinion here somewhat personal.

As I mentioned this is not my strongest subject so my answers are not going to be as fully informed as in other subjects I have responded to in other threads.

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Character is like a Tree and Reputation like its Shadow. The Shadow is what we think of it; The Tree is the Real thing.  ~ Abraham Lincoln

Reputation is a Lifetime to create but seconds to destroy.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.  ~ Winston Churchill

Docendo discimus - "to teach is to learn"

 

† CHRISTIAN MEMBER †

 

 
 
 
 
 
 

 

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From my understanding it does have to happen its own, forced evolution by selective breeding through Human intervention is not evolution in in own right so I cannot agree with you there it not natural selection as you point out is part of evolution theorized by Darwin.

Then your understanding is wrong. There is absolutely nothing in the definition of evolution which specifies that it has to occur by itself. You are thinking of natural selection. That has to happen by itself in order for it to be called "natural selection". Evolution however, does not. It is perfectly accurate to say that dogs evolved from wolves for example, even though that was done by humans.

 

 

You seem to be taking my difference of opinion here somewhat personal.

The thing is, you are not talking about an opinion when you say things such as "there is no direct linage of evolution of ape to man".

You might as well be saying "1+1=4" and then when I correct you your response is "hey, it's just my opinion".

 

 

I agree in evolution in a species but not one species evolving into another species this I cannot fathom or agree with.

I agree that organisms (species) will adapt to their surroundings and develop certain traits because of that adaption, just as Darwin saw in the Galapagos or different types of dogs or birds.

But saying that Humans and apes developed from the same

Why is one species evolving into another one so unbelievable? Just so that we are perfectly clear here. When one species evolves into another one it's not like a tiger becomes a bird all of a sudden. It is more like a caiman yacara evolving into a caiman crocodilus (not saying that happened. Just an example).

Here is a picture of the two if you want to see them. These two are separate species. They both belong to the caiman genus (which is why they are so similar), but they are unable to breed with each other which makes them different species.

post-216-0-80368700-1450731111.jpg

 

 

 

You seem to be taking my difference of opinion here somewhat personal.

Well it's not really an opinion when you say things like "there is no direct linage of evolution of ape to man", just like saying "1+1=4" is not an opinion either.

 

I understand what you mean now. You believe that a species can evolve to adapt to their surroundings, and this happens because of natural selection. What you don't believe in is that one species can become another one. I don't see why that is so hard to believe but my guess is that you are visualizing it like an ape one day giving birth to a human. It is far more granular than that. Like in my caiman example.

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Good question. My local church reverend would shout out a resounding NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....

 

Seriously, that's how long his Os lasted. 

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