Rescue Greece through Indiegogo Crowdfunding

[asim1999]

I think that this guy will take all the cash and spend it on Ferrari instead of helping Greece 

[Notional]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23247914

 

And that is just a small part of the austerity measures and only two of an almost infinite amount of stories regarding the effects of austerity on the country. Truly just peanuts.

 

I think you don't quite appreciate the message a Grexit sends to lenders and other parties across the world, it undermines the European negotiating position for one but beyond that it establishes that the Eurozone won't guarantee the debts of its members. Once that happens countries like Italy, Spain, Portugal and others suddenly become less attractive to invest in and then those countries will get in trouble. That's not even counting the amount of money European Banks are going to have to write off if Greece defaults.

 

You cannot have benefits you cannot afford. But obviously it would make a lot more sense to focus on the insane retirement laws and the extreme amount of bureaucracy, along with all the public servants upholding this system. Also blame the shadow economy (24%) not paying their taxes either. Focusing on health care first is not what I would do, but apparently that was easier to get political majority for, than thinning out the bureaucracy and public servants working in offices, pushing paper.

 

Agreed, a "grexit" is unknown territory, with vast consequences. However, the biggest creditors for those countries are other euro countries, do I doubt it would make them crash. I think the Greeks are underestimating the consequences of going bankrupt and "grexiting" the euro. The EU has a teleconference Tuesday I believe. No one wants Greece to go bankrupt because of the consequences for everyone. But if the Greek won't take responsibility and do what is necessary, then we might have to.

[FakezZ]

Notice the efficiency of their work? Yeah that's on ex soviet country levels. Working smart (efficient) is always better than working harder and longer. But both of you need to keep in mind, that working with pointless bureaucracy in the public sector, also adds up the hours, but makes the country poorer. Not paying taxes makes everyone poorer. Still collecting pension/retirement funds from deceased family members, makes everyone poorer.

 

Greece's situation is not the consequence of companies or banks, but of the people and the incompetent politicians they elected, based on impossible promises. The Greek people wanted their cake and to eat it too. Well they ate it, and now they blame everyone else for starving.

Nobody talked about efficiency. Hard working != efficient. Also what used to happen in the public sector is the thing of the past. The fact that I only see my father like twice a week working in the public sector for an ok wage can testify that. Also read the other post I wrote on the first page about how we really got into this situation.

[Centurius]

yes, we have the RON currency but we are in the EU, we'll make the step to € in 2019 if I recall

but, the issue at hand is something else - Greece has fucked up and their failure affects every country member of the EU

I'm quite amazed how my country, with it's own economical and political issue still is above of what's happening in Greece

---

and the part of us not being in Euro-Zone is kinda blurry since we already pay bills and get wages at the Euro's rate

when buying something or paying we can do it straight up in Euros

 

Romania still consistently does not have an inflation rate or interest rate compatible with the convergence criteria and has yet to join ERM II which it needs to be a member of at least 2 years before it can adopt the euro. It seems unlikely Romania will make 2019.

 

Romania being able to cope with its economic issues better than Greece is easily explained by the fact you have your own monetary policy. As you can yourself affect the money supply and are unable to lend large amounts of money there is an artificial cap on just how much you can spend and if you can get in trouble you can alter the money supply to become more competitive. 

 

The two countries cannot be compared.

[Notional]

Nobody talked about efficiency. Hard working != efficient. Also what used to happen in the public sector is the thing of the past. The fact that I only see my father like twice a week working in the public sector for an ok wage can testify that. Also read the other post I wrote on the first page about how we really got into this situation.

 

I talked about efficiency, when "hard" work by the Greeks came up. Working 40+ hours a week, when only creating the value of 30+ hours, shows a high degree of inefficiency. Pushing vast amounts of paper in a sanded down bureaucracy system is pointless. Deregulate, make things more streamlined and push large amounts of the workforce from the public to the private sector.

 

Your point of the banks and politicians are bonkers. Read the Forbes article further up on page 7 (and the Bloomberg youtube video in this thread). Blaming politicians is too easy, as you seem to forget who elected them.

The economy of Greece has been bad since before their entry into EU, so that simply is not correct. The extreme fiscal deficit due to extremely high welfare and the abuse of this by the people, are reasons for it.

[Centurius]

You cannot have benefits you cannot afford. But obviously it would make a lot more sense to focus on the insane retirement laws and the extreme amount of bureaucracy, along with all the public servants upholding this system. Also blame the shadow economy (24%) not paying their taxes either. Focusing on health care first is not what I would do, but apparently that was easier to get political majority for, than thinning out the bureaucracy and public servants working in offices, pushing paper.

 

Agreed, a "grexit" is unknown territory, with vast consequences. However, the biggest creditors for those countries are other euro countries, do I doubt it would make them crash. I think the Greeks are underestimating the consequences of going bankrupt and "grexiting" the euro. The EU has a teleconference Tuesday I believe. No one wants Greece to go bankrupt because of the consequences for everyone. But if the Greek won't take responsibility and do what is necessary, then we might have to.

You can't really have both elimination of the black economy and a smaller public sector as actual enforcement of taxation law will require a strong public sector and instantly reforming the public sector leads to problems like I linked above(people not having healthcare or the money to afford food) leading to a higher strain on the economy which will then again require more money going to social security mechanisms. 

 

Greeks have shown a willingness to reform, what they don't want is a dramatic increase of VAT which increases the cost of living and is something that affects the poor relatively harder than the wealthy, they want their pension system to not be entirely dismantled as reforms have already started back in 2010 and most of all they want to be treated as humans and not simple statistics.

 

Corruption is a real problem in Greece, no one denies it. The Greeks don't, Europe doesn't, no one. However the demands made in negotiations do not affect corruption, increased taxation efficiency is not demanded and no resources are made available to enable it. Once all these measures have been agreed upon and implemented we can start looking at real austerity again to deal with what remains.

 

Private investment as well as non-EU state investments are quite significant portions of the Southern European debts. Added to that is the fact that many of the more stable economies themselves borrowed money to then provide it to the Southern European countries meaning they themselves now owe it to creditors. The problem I indicated isn't just the existing credit either but rather the problems to obtain new credit at favourable interest rates.

[Notional]

You can't really have both elimination of the black economy and a smaller public sector as actual enforcement of taxation law will require a strong public sector and instantly reforming the public sector leads to problems like I linked above(people not having healthcare or the money to afford food) leading to a higher strain on the economy which will then again require more money going to social security mechanisms. 

 

Greeks have shown a willingness to reform, what they don't want is a dramatic increase of VAT which increases the cost of living and is something that affects the poor relatively harder than the wealthy, they want their pension system to not be entirely dismantled as reforms have already started back in 2010 and most of all they want to be treated as humans and not simple statistics.

 

Corruption is a real problem in Greece, no one denies it. The Greeks don't, Europe doesn't, no one. However the demands made in negotiations do not affect corruption, increased taxation efficiency is not demanded and no resources are made available to enable it. Once all these measures have been agreed upon and implemented we can start looking at real austerity again to deal with what remains.

 

Private investment as well as non-EU state investments are quite significant portions of the Southern European debts. Added to that is the fact that many of the more stable economies themselves borrowed money to then provide it to the Southern European countries meaning they themselves now owe it to creditors. The problem I indicated isn't just the existing credit either but rather the problems to obtain new credit at favourable interest rates.

 

Sure you can. A bloated regulatory bureaucratic organ, does not result in less shadow market. Increasing the taxation organ, to do a lot more control is a good thing, but deregulation and simplification of tax laws, and general regulations are a must. A large part of the public sector in Greece are not health personnel or part of the tax agency, but paper pushers administrating the regulatory bureaucratic hell that is the Greek system atm.

 

The reforms that has been effectuated in Greece are peanuts. They cannot afford the system they have now, so they have to cut spending. There is no way around it no matter how you look at it. Electing Syriza and voting no today is a proof of this just in the last year.

 

Most of the initial loans Greece got, had massive anti corruption strings attached to them. Only Greece can do something about corruption, and it goes without saying they have to want it themselves.

 

Greece got 107 billion € of private loans relieved in 2012, but that was just a drop in the ocean as they didn't reform their country as needed: http://time.com/3939664/greece-crisis-euro-guide-explainer/

[zMeul]

...

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/countries/romania_en.htm

Adoption of the euro: Romania has set 2019 as its target year to adopt the euro.

[Centurius]

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/countries/romania_en.htm

It's one thing to set a target year, another one to actually be able to make it. 

[Jasmin]

To you and all the others who are writing this BS: have you read anything on the topic besides what the IMF favoring news sources are writing, if even that. It's not like all the people in Greece have to suffer for something which a handful of people, Greeks and others in the IMF and European union have caused.

Sure, you cannot condemn everyone. But it's not a handful. In a country where 25% of citizens were gov employees, people got magical retirement pension at 90% of their last paycheck. People choosing populist gov after populist gov, avoiding taxes, getting 13th and 14th and sometimes 15th paycheck. Even now on a brink of complete chaos over 60% of those fools voted against the deal. If you read it, the 'anti democractic, terrorist measures' as they called them require greece to put taxing measures that are still lighter than your average EU country. Trully terrible taxing food business, cutting tax reduction for large groups, forcing still inadequate retirement age (67 is still too early with our lifespans). Cutting on 'pseudo farms' racking eu funds without producing food. Trully draztic measures. I trully hope that people with a bit of oil in their heads left the country when the crisis started and its going to hit the hardest people most responsible for it

[zMeul]

It's one thing to set a target year, another one to actually be able to make it.

yes quite correct, but if nothing goes bad in our economy we're still on track

one thing would make it smoother would be getting rid of the current shitheads running the government

[FakezZ]

I talked about efficiency, when "hard" work by the Greeks came up. Working 40+ hours a week, when only creating the value of 30+ hours, shows a high degree of inefficiency. Pushing vast amounts of paper in a sanded down bureaucracy system is pointless. Deregulate, make things more streamlined and push large amounts of the workforce from the public to the private sector.

 

Your point of the banks and politicians are bonkers. Read the Forbes article further up on page 7 (and the Bloomberg youtube video in this thread). Blaming politicians is too easy, as you seem to forget who elected them.

The economy of Greece has been bad since before their entry into EU, so that simply is not correct. The extreme fiscal deficit due to extremely high welfare and the abuse of this by the people, are reasons for it.

That's the problem! We shouldn't be in the EU because our economy was bad, but our corrupt politicians along with Golden Sachs and corrupt politicians in Germany and France pushed us in, having full knowledge of everything. Also yeah we elected them, because they showed us progress and healthy development. But all that was made up and we found out some years ago the game they were playing behind our backs.

[Notional]

That's the problem! We shouldn't be in the EU because our economy was bad, but our corrupt politicians along with Golden Sachs and corrupt politicians in Germany and France pushed us in, having full knowledge of everything. Also yeah we elected them, because they showed us progress and healthy development. But all that was made up and we found out some years ago the game they were playing behind our backs.

 

How if the French and German corrupt?

Only Greece can deregulate, only Greece can fix their fiscal deficit, only Greece can so something about corruption and only the Greek people can change their culture to disapprove tax evasion. Goldman Sachs is a sach of dick herpes, but even they cannot take responsibility for Greece's situation. Everything about the Greeks since 2008, has been disclaimer after disclaimer. No one has taken any responsibility, except some politicians being forced to. They were not re elected, so it hardly matters. The only way the fingers of the Greeks should be pointing, is onto themselves, or into a mirror. 

[FakezZ]

How if the French and German corrupt?

Only Greece can deregulate, only Greece can fix their fiscal deficit, only Greece can so something about corruption and only the Greek people can change their culture to disapprove tax evasion. Goldman Sachs is a sach of dick herpes, but even they cannot take responsibility for Greece's situation. Everything about the Greeks since 2008, has been disclaimer after disclaimer. No one has taken any responsibility, except some politicians being forced to. They were not re elected, so it hardly matters. The only way the fingers of the Greeks should be pointing, is onto themselves, or into a mirror. 

German and French politicians (tbh it was a report I read a while ago and I'm not so sure about the French) knew about all that. Also yeah there was tax evasion and overspending, but the numbers the politicians presented were of the economy booming, which we believed, but it was just a bunch of horseshit. Not taking the blame out of the people, but also it is not all on us. Plus the ones that were benefiting with the evasion and shit were the rich which is a small percentage of the population

[patrickjp93]

I'm from Greece my friend and I can tell you that you know nothing about the situation here. I work 8 hours + per day and I get 400€ per month without stamps which means that if I get sick I have to pay the doctor from my money and of course that I wont get pension when I retire. They want to raise the retirement age to 67 years old. It is not the people of Greece who created that situation but the corrupt political system of the last 40 years and was supported by the few rich.

Who other than the people voted your ministers in? The politicians reflect the people, whether you like to admit that or not.

[Misanthrope]

then you have venezuela where this year inflation will reach over 100% because a *cough* socialist *cough* government said fuck everything and everyone 15 years ago and lets do it ourselves without having at least some sense of how to do it, where they try to sell oil at market prices that is worthless in quality that nobody wants to buy, combine that with the most corrupted scum you can have in charge and you end up in a situation comparable with countries that have no natural resources to sell despite having amounts to supply the planet for the next 100 years and then some

 

/rant

 

Yeah I wasn't suggesting to go Venenzuelan as the alternative, at least not without Chavez that at least had, let's say, more than bravado and idealism only when it came to (mis)handling country economics.

[Trik'Stari]

Who other than the people voted your ministers in? The politicians reflect the people, whether you like to admit that or not.

Corporations. Have you never done any serious research into the American political system?

 

One word: "lobbying" (in reality, we call this bribery)

Combine with electoral college, social engineering, and corporate media, and you have: corruption

[patrickjp93]

Corporations. Have you never done any serious research into the American political system?

 

One word: "lobbying" (in reality, we call this bribery)

Combine with electoral college, social engineering, and corporate media, and you have: corruption

It doesn't matter. Corporations cannot control how or who you vote for. You make that end decision. If you pick someone too weak to hold his or her own against special interests, you made a bad decision. It always comes down to the citizens, no matter how much you stamp your feet. If you refuse to keep your politicians accountable and listening to you, you're no better.

 

The electoral college splits delegates by the way the citizens vote in most instances. If you're not a member of a state which handles it as all or nothing, you have no power to change it. Again, quit complaining unless you're willing to do something about it.

[Trik'Stari]

It doesn't matter. Corporations cannot control how or who you vote for. You make that end decision. If you pick someone too weak to hold his or her own against special interests, you made a bad decision. It always comes down to the citizens, no matter how much you stamp your feet. If you refuse to keep your politicians accountable and listening to you, you're no better.

 

The electoral college splits delegates by the way the citizens vote in most instances. If you're not a member of a state which handles it as all or nothing, you have no power to change it. Again, quit complaining unless you're willing to do something about it.

1. true I guess

2. Again, social engineering (control of the media = control of the majority vote)

3. You are assuming all votes are legitimate. Then again, when it comes to government, I think it's better, and justified, to assume guilty until proven innocent because of the amount of power they wield

[patrickjp93]

1. true I guess

2. Again, social engineering (control of the media = control of the majority vote)

3. You are assuming all votes are legitimate. Then again, when it comes to government, I think it's better, and justified, to assume guilty until proven innocent because of the amount of power they wield

1) Thank you

2) Weak-minded citizens = weak government. You have no one to blame but yourselves, and you have no proof there's a hidden agenda in the news anyway.

3) No, but if there were enough illegitimate votes to actually sway anything, there are a number of watch dogs and wing bats that would be foaming at the mouth mere days after the result. Throwing away the namesake of justice and law will only lead to the downfall of human civilization. Do think you can take action so lightly.

[Notional]

Corporations. Have you never done any serious research into the American political system?

 

One word: "lobbying" (in reality, we call this bribery)

Combine with electoral college, social engineering, and corporate media, and you have: corruption

 

America is an oligarchy, not a democracy: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

[Fred Castellum]

America is an oligarchy, not a democracy: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

So true... so much truth to this.

[gill2k]

Just put them on eBay...

 

[Vanderburg]

What a waste of money...

[patrickjp93]

So true... so much truth to this.

Eh, confirmation bias. Princeton threw his ass out on the street after publishing that, and no academic institution will touch him. Don't just believe what you want to. Analyze everything objectively.