Rescue Greece through Indiegogo Crowdfunding

[Fred Castellum]

Eh, confirmation bias. Princeton threw his ass out on the street after publishing that, and no academic institution will touch him. Don't just believe what you want to. Analyze everything objectively.

Not exactly agreeing with the article, just agreeing with how the US isn't exactly a democracy. 

[Trik'Stari]

1) Thank you

2) Weak-minded citizens = weak government. You have no one to blame but yourselves, and you have no proof there's a hidden agenda in the news anyway.

3) No, but if there were enough illegitimate votes to actually sway anything, there are a number of watch dogs and wing bats that would be foaming at the mouth mere days after the result. Throwing away the namesake of justice and law will only lead to the downfall of human civilization. Do think you can take action so lightly.

There is overwhelming evidence of hidden agenda's in the news, you just don't see the evidence of them represented in the news (news organizations, CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, etc, are bullied into pushing certain agenda's, if they don't they are threatened with access being cut off to white house and other political press briefings, which would essentially be a death sentence for them).

 

And there are watchdog organizations that have claimed voter fraud is rampant, everyone downplays them and calls them crazy. Much like people did when people like me said "the government is spying on everyone at all times".

 

You want evidence of corruption? Go look at ANYONE who voted for the "internet freedom act" and look at who donated "political donations" to them just before the legislation was introduced into congress. Thankfully it failed.

 

We are living in an oligarchy, not a democracy. Our votes mean nothing, our opinions mean nothing or are influenced by the media which is controlled by the state. Our government does whatever the hell it wants. What will it take for the majority to wake up? Fuck if I know I would have thought they'd have woken up by now.

 

America is an oligarchy, not a democracy: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

I know lol

[Florb]

That simply is not true. Most of the loans came from euro countries, to fix Greece's economy, and stabilize/strengthen the Euro. You don't give other people money without terms or it is just money out the window. Greece is in serious need of reformation. The Greek people are not adult enough to take responsibility, neither are their politicians, so the other EU countries are forced to, well force Greece to do so. That is the strings that comes with the loans. Not high interests to make money.

Alright, all of you, I have come again to fix this argument once and for all, everyone trying to defend Greece, stop, it isn't worth it, we are the LTT Community, not people who derive personal gain from arguing with each other, now for the people who say Greece works hard and are very diligent, read the quote below:; for the people who say Greeks aren't arrogant and are friendly, read this: http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/07/news/economy/greece-germany-war-damages/

.

Notice the efficiency of their work? Yeah that's on ex soviet country levels. Working smart (efficient) is always better than working harder and longer. But both of you need to keep in mind, that working with pointless bureaucracy in the public sector, also adds up the hours, but makes the country poorer. Not paying taxes makes everyone poorer. Still collecting pension/retirement funds from deceased family members, makes everyone poorer.

 

Greece's situation is not the consequence of companies or banks, but of the people and the incompetent politicians they elected, based on impossible promises. The Greek people wanted their cake and to eat it too. Well they ate it, and now they blame everyone else for starving.

[patrickjp93]

Not exactly agreeing with the article, just agreeing with how the US isn't exactly a democracy. 

Fair enough, though it isn't and never was supposed to be a pure democracy. Pure democracies invite a rapid takeover of the loudest and least intelligent elements of society. That's just a matter of association and statistics. The founders intended only the most intelligent and genuine be elected, and that they serve small periods of time to minimize the damage of corruption and/or incompetence. Throughout history there were never more than 5 candidates for president until the last 30 years, and that's because only the very best ran and knew it was their time. Now we have twits like Santorum and Sanders running who don't stand a chance and only distract from important debates and issues. It's a reflection of the state of the people as a whole that these fools get a platform at all.

[patrickjp93]

There is overwhelming evidence of hidden agenda's in the news, you just don't see the evidence of them represented in the news (news organizations, CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, etc, are bullied into pushing certain agenda's, if they don't they are threatened with access being cut off to white house and other political press briefings, which would essentially be a death sentence for them).

 

And there are watchdog organizations that have claimed voter fraud is rampant, everyone downplays them and calls them crazy. Much like people did when people like me said "the government is spying on everyone at all times".

 

You want evidence of corruption? Go look at ANYONE who voted for the "internet freedom act" and look at who donated "political donations" to them just before the legislation was introduced into congress. Thankfully it failed.

 

We are living in an oligarchy, not a democracy. Our votes mean nothing, our opinions mean nothing or are influenced by the media which is controlled by the state. Our government does whatever the hell it wants. What will it take for the majority to wake up? Fuck if I know I would have thought they'd have woken up by now.

 

I know lol

Feel free to provide such evidence. This Princeton professor's report and his life's work were tossed out because his evidence didn't pass a basic smell test. How does yours fair? Is it merely suspicion, or is there a way to objectively measure it?

 

It's entirely the other way around. If the Whitehouse cuts off reporters and channels, it will cause alarms among the citizenry no matter the excuse given. The press has politicians of any brand by the balls. It needs only exercise that power.

 

The watchdogs you speak of have been proven wrong! That's the whole point! If you cry wolf and only provide a red herring, you're going to lose credibility. This is why some of these organizations have evaporated.

 

Because the system worked and the people spoke up. If the people are weak, politicians will be corrupt. The people decided to be strong, and corporations lost for a moment. The problem is the people are complacent and keep dropping their vigils.

 

I'm sorry but that's measurably bullshit. You decide who gets into office by what percentage. You are one vote among millions, but the fact remains you, the citizens, are in control if you only exercise that control.

[Trik'Stari]

Feel free to provide such evidence. This Princeton professor's report and his life's work were tossed out because his evidence didn't pass a basic smell test. How does yours fair? Is it merely suspicion, or is there a way to objectively measure it?

 

It's entirely the other way around. If the Whitehouse cuts off reporters and channels, it will cause alarms among the citizenry no matter the excuse given. The press has politicians of any brand by the balls. It needs only exercise that power.

 

The watchdogs you speak of have been proven wrong! That's the whole point! If you cry wolf and only provide a red herring, you're going to lose credibility. This is why some of these organizations have evaporated.

 

Because the system worked and the people spoke up. If the people are weak, politicians will be corrupt. The people decided to be strong, and corporations lost for a moment. The problem is the people are complacent and keep dropping their vigils.

 

I'm sorry but that's measurably bullshit. You decide who gets into office by what percentage. You are one vote among millions, but the fact remains you, the citizens, are in control if you only exercise that control.

Don't talk to me about "weak minded citizens" and then ask me for evidence. Do your own research, as I have. Most "legitimate" (accepted by the media) studies concerning voter legitimacy are government approved, which is not a trust worthy source AT ALL.

 

If you can't see the pile of filth we are living in, that';s your own fault. Look at how slow our recovery has been since 2008, look at how FAST Iceland recovered by bailing out the citizens instead of the bankers, and imprisoning the bankers and politicians, then look at the major media blackout (Fox News, CNN, MSNBC,, CNBC) concerning Iceland's recovery.

[Lays]

q

 

 

My only issue is, how do we "weed out" the people that don't do anything, or just make things worse?

So many politicians only tell us what we want to hear about how they're going to change things etc, then once they get elected, don't do squat.

 

You mentioned the citizens are the ones electing dimwits etc, but how are we supposed to find "real" people that are going to actually get things done, when everyone says they will, yet never follow through? Even some of the people that do want to do well by us citizens and by our country tend to end up starting out with great intentions, then one thing leads to another and their entire moral compass changes.

[Dabombinable]

The world REALLY needs to outlaw usury (interest on debt). It's financial entrapment.

 

I have a student loan right now because I have no choice, and school is my only way out of the situation I am in. But after that, I will NEVER get a loan again. I don't care if I have to drive a shitty beat up used honda civic for ten years.

Think of it this way, Interest is made up of money that is in a way nonexistant. Say there was only $1000 in existance, and it was loaned out to some one with 10% interest, where would the extra money come from?

[cesrai]

Think of it this way, Interest is made up of money that is in a way nonexistant. Say there was only $1000 in existance, and it was loaned out to some one with 10% interest, where would the extra money come from?

That's why I'm happy to report that in UAE you can get loans with 0% interest.

[Notional]

Think of it this way, Interest is made up of money that is in a way nonexistant. Say there was only $1000 in existance, and it was loaned out to some one with 10% interest, where would the extra money come from?

 

Money represents value created. You can easily print more money to represent this value increase. This is why people wanting to go back to gold standards, are effectively retarded, as the bottom notion is, that value is a fixed size.

[Notional]

That's why I'm happy to report that in UAE you can get loans with 0% interest.

 

That's because interests are haram; illegal in islam, so you would probably get hung next to all the gay people in cranes.

Interest used to be illegal in christianity and jewidism as well. A loophole in the jewish religion, meant that they could lend money with interest to non jews. So they did that in italy, while sitting on benches, known as banks (aah so that's why it's called a bank). As a result, italy grew in wealth significantly, and jews are forever known for banking and money stuff.

[patrickjp93]

Don't talk to me about "weak minded citizens" and then ask me for evidence. Do your own research, as I have. Most "legitimate" (accepted by the media) studies concerning voter legitimacy are government approved, which is not a trust worthy source AT ALL.

 

If you can't see the pile of filth we are living in, that';s your own fault. Look at how slow our recovery has been since 2008, look at how FAST Iceland recovered by bailing out the citizens instead of the bankers, and imprisoning the bankers and politicians, then look at the major media blackout (Fox News, CNN, MSNBC,, CNBC) concerning Iceland's recovery.

Have you ever researched Jeffersonian debate or taken part in a modern debate (based closely on it)? If you intend to rally people behind your ideas, you need proof they are true and workable. You don't have the charisma to sell snake oil. Provide proof and I will listen. I don't have time to go searching for conspiracy theorists' needles in thousands of haystacks buried around the internet. I have my own job and education to worry about at the moment. It's a matter of convenience and expediency both for you and anyone you discuss this with to provide your proof. Otherwise we will rightfully write you off as illegitimate. If you haven't understood this in post-secondary academia, you're not going to make it that far. Proof is demanded and obliged. Without it you are nothing before anyone with an even slightly healthy skepticism inborn in their view of the world.

 

You say most, but you have no proof of that approval provided or any proof about whether the results are biased. Most of the time grants are given with no strings attached regarding these studies. I'd know. I just got one.

 

Yes, because we are an inefficient, wasteful society in a global economy where capitalism and social Darwinism rule. If businesses cannot be cheap enough to sell products, they fall, and jobs are lost. This adaptive process has sparked robotics and automation research. Our menial workers have been paid nearly 50x the world average wage, and now they have to compete with global wage levels because markets aren't region-locked under free trade. That's not the fault of corruption. Economics is a 0-sum game in the short term. Only in the long term is there a permanent gain. Menial workers should have been looking to differentiate themselves better and prepare for a world ever more populated by high technology. The age of muscle is dying, and the age of the mind is taking over. Throughout time evolution has required hundreds and thousands of species go extinct for the very best to move forward. It's the same with societies in humanity. I'm sorry if that challenges your optimistic view of humanity, but that is reality, and reality is kind to no one in the end.

 

Iceland is falling to pieces you twit! The people are happy but the economy is two swift blows from total collapse by all the major indicators.

[cesrai]

That's because interests are haram; illegal in islam, so you would probably get hung next to all the gay people in cranes.

Interest used to be illegal in christianity and jewidism as well. A loophole in the jewish religion, meant that they could lend money with interest to non jews. So they did that in italy, while sitting on benches, known as banks (aah so that's why it's called a bank). As a result, italy grew in wealth significantly, and jews are forever known for banking and money stuff.

Loans with interest also exist it isn't illegal FYI, and hung for being gay ? don't talk bullshit please show me evidence that happening in UAE, please stop it don't talk shit please.

[Dabombinable]

Money represents value created. You can easily print more money to represent this value increase. This is why people wanting to go back to gold standards, are effectively retarded, as the bottom notion is, that value is a fixed size.

Thats just it-in that small economy there was only $1000, any more than that would consist of fake money.

[Notional]

Iceland is falling to pieces you twit! The people are happy but the economy is two swift blows from total collapse by all the major indicators.

 

Pretty sure Iceland did the very best thing it could under the circumstances. Afaik their economy has almost fully recovered:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2013/02/20/icelands-stabilized-economy-is-a-surprising-success-story/

 

And from this year:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/three-charts-that-show-icelands-economy-recovered-after-it-imprisoned-bankers-and-let-banks-go-bust--instead-of-bailing-them-out-10309503.html

 

So I have no clue what you base your statement on tbh.

[patrickjp93]

My only issue is, how do we "weed out" the people that don't do anything, or just make things worse?

So many politicians only tell us what we want to hear about how they're going to change things etc, then once they get elected, don't do squat.

 

You mentioned the citizens are the ones electing dimwits etc, but how are we supposed to find "real" people that are going to actually get things done, when everyone says they will, yet never follow through? Even some of the people that do want to do well by us citizens and by our country tend to end up starting out with great intentions, then one thing leads to another and their entire moral compass changes.

You continually toss the ones who fail, and you send a message to anyone else headed for office that they can't fool you. It will take time, but the problem with the U.S. is a lack of long-term consistency. Also, stop paying attention to what they say on TV and just research your candidate's past and affiliations. It will rapidly become obvious. That's why out of anyone running on the GOP side, the only 3 worth a damn are Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, and Chris Christie. All three of them have sterling education records, are proven leaders of large organizations (HP did not fare much worse than other tech companies in the economic downturn, and a number of negative factors were instilled before she became CEO for a very short period anyway), and speak eloquently and directly. 

 

For the Democrats, Hillary Clinton doesn't have any accomplishments to run on, and it's clear she's steeped in corruption. Bernie Sanders is a fool when it comes to global economics and the effects of a 90% tax when there are other markets with the same consumer base power as ours. O'Malley seems run of the mill to me. The Democrats so far have no one worth our time. Meanwhile the Republicans are letting 20+ people bash each other over the head in the world's grandest pissing match to appease the lowest common denominator of voters in the bible belt and Iowa. The brinksmanship that most people seem too weak to look around is sickening to me. It's very easy to see who has no chance in Hell of leading this country, much less doing it well.

[Trik'Stari]

Think of it this way, Interest is made up of money that is in a way nonexistant. Say there was only $1000 in existance, and it was loaned out to some one with 10% interest, where would the extra money come from?

That's what we call fiat currency, or in reality, currency.

 

What I believe, what I HOPE, is that humanity is "evolving" technologically, past a need for currency. The entire idea of "currency" is manufactured (fictitious). I hope and dream for a day when our technology can mine resources, and farm food for us, and no one actually NEEDS to work. Where people trade resources and ideas freely. Where people can recycle what they have in their own homes and use that to make what they need.

 

I leave this as my last post in this thread.

Scary to really look deep into that speech, and realize exactly how relevant it is 75 years later

 

The only correction I would make, is that we need machinery AND humanity. We need a world where people can recycle what they have to make what they need, we need the world envisioned in star trek, with technology like the replicator, where food is no longer something to be bought, but something that everyone has. Where that technology can be used to replicate itself (no need to sell a machine, if the machine you have can take materials and replicate all of the parts to be assembled into itself).

 

We are already on that road with 3d printing and open source ideals. What we need is in home recycling technology, and a power source capable of providing renewable, "free" energy (free as in the source of power harnessed already exists without mankind intervening, like window, tidal, solar, etc. Nuclear and fission are also acceptable). A lot of people confuse the society represented in star trek with socialism, when what it actually represents, is a utopian and agrarian society, with examples of imperialism, barbarism, and socialism (the romulans, klingons, and borg respectively).

 

We need a world where people work to help each other, not because the state provides for them in return for their service/efforts, but because the technology they have can do that regardless, and people simply help one another because they want to

[Notional]

Loans with interest also exist it isn't illegal FYI, and hung for being gay ? don't talk bullshit please show me evidence that happening in UAE, please stop it don't talk shit please.

 

Not an UAE thing I suppose, more of an Iranian thing. Pretty sure interests are still considered haram.

 

Thats just it-in that small economy there was only $1000, any more than that would consist of fake money.

 

So you make more? Money represents value, it's not a static amount. If you insist on keeping it at 1000$, then prices just rises for products and goods instead. Then you have inflation.

[patrickjp93]

Pretty sure Iceland did the very best thing it could under the circumstances. Afaik their economy has almost fully recovered:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2013/02/20/icelands-stabilized-economy-is-a-surprising-success-story/

 

And from this year:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/three-charts-that-show-icelands-economy-recovered-after-it-imprisoned-bankers-and-let-banks-go-bust--instead-of-bailing-them-out-10309503.html

 

So I have no clue what you base your statement on tbh.

WSJ and Warren Buffet both have more detailed analyses on the subject. Iceland's economy is not based enough on its own domestic production to survive another global recession, like the one analysts are predicting for the 2017-2018 timeframe. It also has fundamental fiscal issues that leave it open to rapidly growing inflation if the Euro tanks (counter-intuitive, but that's what you get when your primary trade partners are EU countries).

[Briggsy]

The old proverb "give a man a fish, you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime" rings true here. If the problem (aside from central banking) that caused Greece to default is not corrected, than no amount of bailouts or kickstarters will solve the problem, and Greece will continue to nosedive into poverty. 

[mr moose]

EDIT: Dam politicians. A lot of people will say they don't like politics and that politics is a bunch of bullshit. Indeed there is a lot of bullshit in politics but disregarding it is just as bad. The people of the country need to participate in politics regardless if they like it or not if they are to steer the country in the direction they want to see it move to. Educating yourself about what's going on politically is very important for understanding what exactly is happening on many fronts in your country, such as what the economical position is, or what the social consensus is. Just saying oh politics is shit, and that the "country" is fucked is a cop out. 

 

This, this is something I have been trying to tell people for years now,  I can't even scroll through maybe ten facebook posts without seeing some dumb, ill-informed derisory attack on a politician, fear mongering, arrogance, political fanboying and ignorant rhetoric.  It does nothing to further any countries growth, like rust it slowly corrodes the seems of the only institution that actually stops a country from falling apart.  New age internet rhetoric is going to do more damage to any country than the perception of politicians ever will.

[patrickjp93]

This, this is something I have been trying to tell people for years now,  I can't even scroll through maybe ten facebook posts without seeing some dumb, ill-informed derisory attack on a politician, fear mongering, arrogance, political fanboying and ignorant rhetoric.  It does nothing to further any countries growth, like rust it slowly corrodes the seems of the only institution that actually stops a country from falling apart.  New age internet rhetoric is going to do more damage to any country than the perception of politicians ever will.

With freedom comes power, and with power comes responsibility. How do you manage freedom of the stupid and corrupt? The more laws and restrictions you make to deal with the stupid, the more they and the average joe get pissed and have the responsible politicians fired. This is why I constantly harp on the difference between elitism and being elite. You have to draw the line somewhere. Absolute freedom is absolute chaos.

[mr moose]

With freedom comes power, and with power comes responsibility. How do you manage freedom of the stupid and corrupt? The more laws and restrictions you make to deal with the stupid, the more they and the average joe get pissed and have the responsible politicians fired. This is why I constantly harp on the difference between elitism and being elite. You have to draw the line somewhere. Absolute freedom is absolute chaos.

There always has to be a balance,  with a properly educated public and corruption has a better chance of being held in check without draconian laws.

 

I'm just saying anyone can run around on social media repeating assumptions, lying, having ago at certain political parties, All it does is create a subset of ill informed people who will then go on to vote in the next moron, it becomes a self driving snowball of shit voting in shit because it is supported by ignorance.  The internet is the biggest soapbox for political commentary and it's content is being generated almost solely by the ignorant and lobby groups.*

 

All I am saying is people should stop preaching unfounded BS and start educating themselves before the system goes too far in one direction and can't  sustain itself.

 

 

*proof in point, I am just getting over a flu, I tried to google flu remedies/medications.  I had to put "Scientifically proven" in the search box so I could get at least two results that weren't hippy BS slap fish and drink goat extract cures.  Just to show how much BS there is on the net.

[Hulk]

My dad was watching an interview with Greece's chief economist and after hearing him, I wanted to drown in a well. If they employ people who argue with emotions instead of facts, I can see why Greece is in it's current position...

[patrickjp93]

There always has to be a balance,  with a properly educated public and corruption has a better chance of being held in check without draconian laws.

 

I'm just saying anyone can run around on social media repeating assumptions, lying, having ago at certain political parties, All it does is create a subset of ill informed people who will then go on to vote in the next moron, it becomes a self driving snowball of shit voting in shit because it is supported by ignorance.  The internet is the biggest soapbox for political commentary and it's content is being generated almost solely by the ignorant and lobby groups.*

 

All I am saying is people should stop preaching unfounded BS and start educating themselves before the system goes too far in one direction and can't  sustain itself.

 

 

*proof in point, I am just getting over a flu, I tried to google flu remedies/medications.  I had to put "Scientifically proven" in the search box so I could get at least two results that weren't hippy BS slap fish and drink goat extract cures.  Just to show how much BS there is on the net.

Cure for a flu: none. It's a virus.

Relief for a flu: Lots of fluids, including hot tea with ginger and honey. Nice, long, hot showers help too in my experience.