Rescue Greece through Indiegogo Crowdfunding

[spartaman64]

i dont understand this victim blaming mentality here. so it was the greek people's fault that they were lied to. and apparently some people believe that the greek people are lazy cheaters. 

[.spider.]

so if a bank takes all your money and doesnt give it back well you cant sue the bank because it was all your fault for trusting them

Well if the banks are bankrupt there is no benefit for you in suing them.

Also it is always risky to bring your money to the bank that the reason why I don't bring my money to a bank.

[Notional]

so if a bank takes all your money and doesnt give it back well you cant sue the bank because it was all your fault for trusting them

so it was all the greek people's fault that their prime minister lied to them

 

I don't understand your example. The Greek crisis is not a banking crisis or anything like that. It's a crisis based on deficit spending in the government for massive payouts to the people. People not paying their taxes, demanding more money from the government. Accepting corruption, etc. A massive 24% of Greece's economy is black market, while people are not paying taxes on their "unfinished" houses, still collecting pension/retirement funds from their dead parents, etc. And of course the massive public sector. I'm sorry but the fault lies entirely with the Greek people and the way they behave in the society, they themselves have created and want.

 

Drachme* 

It looks like all that you're looking for is admittance of the Greek people that they are the ones who caused this and that the European Union and the IMF are to blame for nothing. Fun fact: When Greece was willing to adopt the Euro the IMF was aware that it was going to have trouble and they let it slide, I remember this surfacing a couple of years ago. A Belgian politician was involved (don't remember the name).

 

So what you're saying is that the fault lies with IMF and ECB for "letting" Greece screw over their own economy? None of those institutions has any power over Greece's fiscal policies. That in itself is actually a problem, when a country using this currency, will not have a fiscal policy to match. But that is not the fault of ECB or IMF. I agree Greece should have been penalized by ECB and the Euro countries, a lot sooner. But no one in EU saw the incompetencies of the US, smashing the world economy in 2008.

 

I've been visiting Greece for 17 Years now and I can tell you that this isn't a common sight.

 

It is more common than you might think. If not rebar then unbuilt floors like this:

 

Try google Greece unfinished houses. Lot's of articles on the matter. Lots of pictures of the phenomenon.

[.spider.]

It's always funny to read 14yo weaboos discusing about politics and economy

But you don't have a option about the discussion?

[spartaman64]

I don't understand your example. The Greek crisis is not a banking crisis or anything like that. It's a crisis based on deficit spending in the government for massive payouts to the people. People not paying their taxes, demanding more money from the government. Accepting corruption, etc. A massive 24% of Greece's economy is black market, while people are not paying taxes on their "unfinished" houses, still collecting pension/retirement funds from their dead parents, etc. And of course the massive public sector. I'm sorry but the fault lies entirely with the Greek people and the way they behave in the society, they themselves have created and want.

 

 

So what you're saying is that the fault lies with IMF and ECB for "letting" Greece screw over their own economy? None of those institutions has any power over Greece's fiscal policies. That in itself is actually a problem, when a country using this currency, will not have a fiscal policy to match. But that is not the fault of ECB or IMF. I agree Greece should have been penalized by ECB and the Euro countries, a lot sooner. But no one in EU saw the incompetencies of the US, smashing the world economy in 2008.

 

 

It is more common than you might think. If not rebar then unbuilt floors like this:

 

 

Try google Greece unfinished houses. Lot's of articles on the matter. Lots of pictures of the phenomenon.

so the bottom line is that you think greek people are lazy and are cheaters

[Dimi3os]

I don't understand your example. The Greek crisis is not a banking crisis or anything like that. It's a crisis based on deficit spending in the government for massive payouts to the people. People not paying their taxes, demanding more money from the government. Accepting corruption, etc. A massive 24% of Greece's economy is black market, while people are not paying taxes on their "unfinished" houses, still collecting pension/retirement funds from their dead parents, etc. And of course the massive public sector. I'm sorry but the fault lies entirely with the Greek people and the way they behave in the society, they themselves have created and want.

 

 

So what you're saying is that the fault lies with IMF and ECB for "letting" Greece screw over their own economy? None of those institutions has any power over Greece's fiscal policies. That in itself is actually a problem, when a country using this currency, will not have a fiscal policy to match. But that is not the fault of ECB or IMF. I agree Greece should have been penalized by ECB and the Euro countries, a lot sooner. But no one in EU saw the incompetencies of the US, smashing the world economy in 2008.

 

 

It is more common than you might think. If not rebar then unbuilt floors like this:

 

Try google Greece unfinished houses. Lot's of articles on the matter. Lots of pictures of the phenomenon.

You can't live in a house that isn't finished you know, of course there are examples but i'm saying it's not as common. Second, playing the blame game doesn't solve anything, I was just saying that you can't blame Greece itself for everything.

Also, I'm sure Belgium and Denmark aren't a hundred percent fair either, it just hasn't surfaced yet. In Belgium you can have an oldtimer and not pay taxes for example or you can buy an electric vehicle on your business and be able to subtract it 120% fiscally. Belgium is heaven if you have money lol, the only thing that holds companies back are the high taxes on labour.

[Notional]

I personally think that a lot of people are reading a little too much into the whole Greece/Russia thing. 

 

In times of conflict, a cooperation between Russia and Greece could be very interesting, and rather dangerous, but as of right now, I don't think we're so much on a brink of a war, but rather of another financial crisis, considering that China's stock market dropped by over 20% last week. 

 

I personally fear that our currency is going to become more and more worthless, because the IMF kept printing and printing money to save Greece from, in my opinion, the inevitable, When our currency is essentially worth shit and unemployment rises, then the real "bad shit" happens, and to be honest, I'm not looking forward to that, if that would happen. 

 

I'm not talking war, I'm talking Greece exiting ECB and IMF, and go over to EDB, in cooperation with the BRIC countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Development_Bank

 

so the bottom line is that you think greek people are lazy and are cheaters

 

24% of their market being black, speaks for itself. The Greeks have lived on borrowed money for decades now. Call them what you want, but their situation is entirely their own doing.

 

You can't live in a house that isn't finished you know, of course there are examples but i'm saying it's not as common. Second, playing the blame game doesn't solve anything, I was just saying that you can't blame Greece itself for everything.

Also, I'm sure Belgium and Denmark aren't a hundred percent fair either, it just hasn't surfaced yet. In Belgium you can have an oldtimer and not pay taxes for example or you can buy an electric vehicle on your business and be able to subtract it 120% fiscally. Belgium is heaven if you have money lol, the only thing that holds companies back are the high taxes on labour.

 

That's the point, they ARE finished. That extra floor is never meant to be made. The first floor is fully done. The houses with rebar sticking out are fully done and functional. These are all bureaucratic tricks to circumvent the Greek house tax laws. 

 

When I wrote a school project with a company making parts for Greek houses, the engineer said this was a common sight to behold where he went. This was back in 2010.

 

Actually it does. If you want to solve a problem, you have to not only know what the problem is, but also acknowledge its existence. That is something the Greek people still hasn't done. And are now blaming everyone else, but themselves. Even going Godwin's law on Germany, the primary country keeping them afloat, even though the average German has less money than the average Greek.

 

The difference is that the economy in Denmark is sustainable (not sure about Belgium), Greece's is not. As for the electrical vehicle, we have something similar here, but that is to force more to buy "greener" tech, via subsidizing. Not exactly the same. And it is fully legal, not tax evasion, like the unfinished housing or the 24% black market is in Greece.

[zMeul]

It's not about the European union it's about having the Euro, Romania still has the Leu...

yes, we have the RON currency but we are in the EU, we'll make the step to € in 2019 if I recall

but, the issue at hand is something else - Greece has fucked up and their failure affects every country member of the EU

I'm quite amazed how my country, with it's own economical and political issue still is above of what's happening in Greece

---

and the part of us not being in Euro-Zone is kinda blurry since we already pay bills and get wages at the Euro's rate

when buying something or paying we can do it straight up in Euros

[spartaman64]

I'm not talking war, I'm talking Greece exiting ECB and IMF, and go over to EDB, in cooperation with the BRIC countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Development_Bank

 

 

24% of their market being black, speaks for itself. The Greeks have lived on borrowed money for decades now. Call them what you want, but their situation is entirely their own doing.

 

 

That's the point, they ARE finished. That extra floor is never meant to be made. The first floor is fully done. The houses with rebar sticking out are fully done and functional. These are all bureaucratic tricks to circumvent the Greek house tax laws. 

 

When I wrote a school project with a company making parts for Greek houses, the engineer said this was a common sight to behold where he went. This was back in 2010.

 

Actually it does. If you want to solve a problem, you have to not only know what the problem is, but also acknowledge its existence. That is something the Greek people still hasn't done. And are now blaming everyone else, but themselves. Even going Godwin's law on Germany, the primary country keeping them afloat, even though the average German has less money than the average Greek.

 

The difference is that the economy in Denmark is sustainable (not sure about Belgium), Greece's is not. As for the electrical vehicle, we have something similar here, but that is to force more to buy "greener" tech, via subsidizing. Not exactly the same. And it is fully legal, not tax evasion, like the unfinished housing or the 24% black market is in Greece.

so you would have everyone in greece men women and children descend into poverty without secure food and water source. you would have them starve 

[marldorthegreat]

Im so GLaD That we were never in the euro.....

[Dimi3os]

yes, we have the RON currency but we are in the EU, we'll make the step to € in 2019 if I recall

but, the issue at hand is something else - Greece has fucked up and their failure affects every country member of the EU

I'm quite amazed how my country, with it's own economical and political issue still is above of what's happening in Greece

Your currency isn't affected by the problems since it isn't the EUR.

[Notional]

so you would have everyone in greece men women and children descend into poverty without secure food and water source. you would have them starve 

 

No but that is the consequence of the Greeks own irresponsibility. If you took up a 1 million dollar loan, and spent it on kaviar, champagne and other wasteful things, do you really think you could go to the bank and ask them not to ask for their money back, because your children would starve?

 

Humanitarian help will reach Greece if necessary. Bailing out the Greeks extreme decade long deficit spending, is however not an option, and not at all fair for the people in Europe who has been responsible.

[Dimi3os]

No but that is the consequence of the Greeks own irresponsibility. If you took up a 1 million dollar loan, and spent it on kaviar, champagne and other wasteful things, do you really think you could go to the bank and ask them not to ask for their money back, because your children would starve?

 

Humanitarian help will reach Greece if necessary. Bailing out the Greeks extreme decade long deficit spending, is however not an option, and not at all fair for the people in Europe who has been responsible.

Guess I'm going to agree to disagree because you can't argue with you. I'm glad you're not an elected politician because as you say, the people would be dumb and stupid.

[zMeul]

Your currency isn't affected by the problems since it isn't the EUR.

yes we are since there are a lot of overlapping businesses between us and Greece - especially banks

[Dimi3os]

yes we are since there are a lot of overlapping businesses between us and Greece - especially banks

And the same goes for Greece and Germany. You said you weren't really affected yet though so you're lucky. 

[Notional]

Guess I'm going to agree to disagree because you can't argue with you. I'm glad you're not an elected politician because as you say, the people would be dumb and stupid.

 

Fair enough, but let me ask you: Why do you think that Greece is in the situation it is in? And do you base any of that on actual sources and facts?

[Dimi3os]

Fair enough, but let me ask you: Why do you think that Greece is in the situation it is in? And do you base any of that on actual sources and facts?

What separates animals and humans from eachother? The fact that we are more evolved. You can show and talk about your emotions. If you're judging based on facts (objective) and therefore do something really cruel or below the human norms it's not necessarily the right thing to do emotionaly. Imagine it being you that lived in Greece, imagine being surrounded by your so called "stupid voters" and you're part of the minority of "smart voters". You would still go though the same "punishment" even though you acted right in your opinion. I bet you would think different.

[deviant88]

This is stupid from a logical standpoint, either the fundraiser is extremely naive or he plans to run away with the money.

[spartaman64]

This is stupid from a logical standpoint, either the fundraiser is extremely naive or he plans to run away with the money.

even if all he accomplishes is raising awareness i think that is enough for him

[Notional]

What separates animals and humans from eachother? The fact that we are more evolved. You can show and talk about your emotions. If you're judging based on facts (objective) and therefore do something really cruel or below the human norms it's not necessarily the right thing to do emotionaly. Imagine it being you that lived in Greece, imagine being surrounded by your so called "stupid voters" and you're part of the minority of "smart voters". You would still go though the same "punishment" even though you acted right in your opinion. I bet you would think different.

 

Not sure what your point is exactly?

 

This Forbes article is quite good at explaining the fundamental problems in Greece. The source material (charts) are a good read too): http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddhixon/2015/07/03/how-greece-created-hades-for-entrepreneurs-and-crippled-its-economy-a-lesson-for-the-us/

[.spider.]

Btw: http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html?lang=en#{%22cls%22:%22main%22,%22params%22:{}}

Here's the page which shows the election outcome

[Dimi3os]

Not sure what your point is exactly?

 

This Forbes article is quite good at explaining the fundamental problems in Greece. The source material (charts) are a good read too): http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddhixon/2015/07/03/how-greece-created-hades-for-entrepreneurs-and-crippled-its-economy-a-lesson-for-the-us/

All I want to say is that there is a golden middle way... 

You want them to rot and others want a solution which involves no work for the Greeks.

[Notional]

All I want to say is that there is a golden middle way... 

You want them to rot and others want a solution which involves no work for the Greeks.

 

I don't want them to rot, I want them to take responsibility and implement the necessary austerities needed to get their economy back on track. That is what all the EU countries want as well. Greece unfortunately, has not proven to be interested in fixing their problems. The election of Syriza being a huge proof of this, and the election of no today (not that it matters, they voted on an agreement, that is obsolete and no longer exists).

[Centurius]

You must be joking? Their so called "austerity" are mere peanuts compared to the Greeks extreme over spending. The fact of the matter is that the Greeks spend more money than they earn on a national scale. They need to work more (as in efficiency, not just more hours), they need to get much less from the government, and they need to move a large part of their working force from the public to the private sector. It really is not that difficult to understand.

 

And yes they owe more now, because they borrow more. That's how loans and interest works.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23247914

 

The state gives them a short period of grace, but then they're on their own and have to stump up the cash for drugs and treatment. When the "troika" of the European Commission, the IMF and the European Central Bank agreed a 240bn-euro rescue package for Greece in 2011 the condition was that the Greek government should make tax system improvements, cut the public sector workforce and lower public spending to reduce its debt burden

People come to get treatment and drugs. Stamatis Govostis, a dignified, neatly turned-out man in his late fifties, is in no doubt what would happen to him if it weren't for Dr Vichas and his team of volunteers. "That's easy," he says - his eyes watering with emotion. "I would be dead." He says he feels like an old workhorse who, after working all his life as a waiter, is simply being left to suffer and die.

Their seven year-old son, Christos, had been diagnosed with angioneurotic edema of the larynx. The pair knew immediately what this meant, since Alexandros has the same rare disorder.

They knew that Christos would be prone to sudden and dramatic swelling that would move rapidly along his body. If the swelling reached his stomach it would be excruciatingly painful - if it reached his face or neck, it would be life-threatening. For this reason, Christos would always have to have with him a syringe filled with a strong anti-inflammatory.

Each syringe costs 600 euros (£520), and Christos might need two or three a month.

And that is just a small part of the austerity measures and only two of an almost infinite amount of stories regarding the effects of austerity on the country. Truly just peanuts.

 

That is the scenario a lot of people fear. But Ireland for instance did the necessary austerity, and is now on the right track. If Greece as the most rotten part of Europe's economy, is cut, it might be beneficial for the other southern countries. If not a wake up call, that will give the politicians the necessary backup in the people to actually introduce these austerities. The Greek people are obviously still completely delusional about realities. Nothing the rest of us can do about that. If the Greek's refuse to take responsibilities, then they have to suffer the consequences alone.

I think you don't quite appreciate the message a Grexit sends to lenders and other parties across the world, it undermines the European negotiating position for one but beyond that it establishes that the Eurozone won't guarantee the debts of its members. Once that happens countries like Italy, Spain, Portugal and others suddenly become less attractive to invest in and then those countries will get in trouble. That's not even counting the amount of money European Banks are going to have to write off if Greece defaults.

 

[Jerakl]

"oh no we're going to lose all of our benefits"