"80% of visits to Tor hidden services are related to child porn"

[kacper]

I call that bullshit - there's no chance in hell that this is true. Not 80%.

[qwertywarrior]

 

However do remember that the article(s) aren't automatically inaccurate just because you don't like the conclusion. Also consider whether either party is inherantly going to be biased. I don't know what biases Alex Biryukov, Ivan Pustogarov, Fabrice Thill and Ralf-Philipp Weinmann may or may not have but you can be sure that any post on "blog.torproject.org" is going to be positively biased. It's very easy to skew statistics by missing out information, knowingly making false assumptions etc in order to promote a predetermined position.

 

So ignoring the numbers suggested by either article for a moment: What percentage of TOR traffic needs to be child porn and similarly morally indefensible material for the negative effects of TOR to outweigh the positive? How many people who don't want a computer at GCHQ to scan their Merry Christmas email to Mum does it take to counter one consumer or producer of child porn?

dude cool the F down

i was just saying to topgamer to take a look at it and maybe post about it .....

[Trik'Stari]

Am I the only one that finds it more likely that this study is complete BS, and trying to discredit TOR?

 

Lets think:

TOR makes it hard for the government to spy on you, legally or otherwise.

A study saying "most TOR users use it for child porn" is more likely to make you avoid TOR at all costs. Because guilt by association is a thing.

 

Hrmmm..... just like they do with studies relating to pot.

[Toddwjp]

if its purpose is to allow people to communicate in oppressed countries then why does it not try to shut down child porn sites?  ill tell you why because its making too much money from them not to.....all this "helping people in other countries" is crap and is tors way of gaining support

 

did you not even read the two points in my response, tor cannot investigate because it would make the service irrelevant

[juretrn]

Yay, more negative press for privacy on the Internet!

[jaggysnake57]

did you not even read the two points in my response, tor cannot investigate because it would make the service irrelevant

i read them...i call bullshit on them but i read them.  tor could if it wanted to, it could close down all the sites that are blatantly illegal and leave sites that give a voice to the oppressed and if you think they couldn't  then you sir are an idiot.  

 

tor is a vile disgusting system and i for one would see it took down it regardless of the good it does in oppressed countries, as a farther, its not worth the cost to the countless children that are abused because of it

[Toddwjp]

i read them...i call bullshit on them but i read them.  tor could if it wanted to, it could close down all the sites that are blatantly illegal and leave sites that give a voice to the oppressed and if you think they couldn't  then you sir are an idiot.  

 

tor is a vile disgusting system and i for one would see it took down it regardless of the good it does in oppressed countries, as a farther, its not worth the cost to the countless children that are abused because of it

 

somebody doesn't understand how tor works. each rely in the tor network is run by an individual not "tor" the parent group. Each one of these relays is merely used a a junction on the overall path between start and end. the data entering a rely is encrypted so that the rely its self cant read it. the only time its possible for a rely to read the data is if it is the first or last relay in the chain. thus "tor" the parent group to be able to close down a site and get prosecutions it would have to know the start and end relay. which is almost impossible to calculate.

 

also the people in charge of each relay can set up rules that makes it so there relay does not allow traffic to certain addresses (eg child porn) this only works when there the very last relay in the network.

 

so tor has no control over what its users do, it is up to the people who run each relay to make it so they cant access things like child porn. so unfortunately as long as relays continue to exist that allow these things then its a side effect of the network. 

[Cedimedi]

I started using Tor recently to access torrenting sites (virgin media block quite a few - the only one I could access before was TPB using proxies) but anyone know how to stop yourself from being a host? Normally I'd be fine with it but I don't want my ISP thinking I look at child pr0n..

Just use VPN. ISP won't see a thing

[jaggysnake57]

somebody doesn't understand how tor works. each rely in the tor network is run by an individual not "tor" the parent group. Each one of these relays is merely used a a junction on the overall path between start and end. the data entering a rely is encrypted so that the rely its self cant read it. the only time its possible for a rely to read the data is if it is the first or last relay in the chain. thus "tor" the parent group to be able to close down a site and get prosecutions it would have to know the start and end relay. which is almost impossible to calculate.

 

also the people in charge of each relay can set up rules that makes it so there relay does not allow traffic to certain addresses (eg child porn) this only works when there the very last relay in the network.

 

so tor has no control over what its users do, it is up to the people who run each relay to make it so they cant access things like child porn. so unfortunately as long as relays continue to exist that allow these things then its a side effect of the network. 

then it all must go sorry but your never going to convinse me that tor is a good thing

[shujin]

important service for humanity...its the fucking internet not healthcare.  really this is some stupid bullshit....its simple if you give criminals (regardless of crime) a way to operate without being caught then they will use it and what makes it worse is tors point blank refusal to work with authorities to shut down these sites..shutting down tor will not stop child porn but it will certainly slow it down considerably....

 

tor needs to start co operating or be shut down simple

the problem is that often good people need to work hidden cause if they not "good people" might just steal their work. Also have you heard about abusive gouvernement cause it exist and in those case your only option is to hide your internet trafic so yeah it's really important that the tor network continue existing and that he don't "cooperate"

[Toddwjp]

then it all must go sorry but your never going to convinse me that tor is a good thing

 

then there's no point you arguing to get rid of it.

[jaggysnake57]

then there's no point you arguing to get rid of it.

what so because you can not convince me i shouldn't argue my case how stupid is that notion....by that thinking then people don need tor in oppressed countries because there never going to change the minds of the poeple oppressing them so they dont need to talk about it

[Toddwjp]

what so because you can not convince me i shouldn't argue my case how stupid is that notion....by that thinking then people don need tor in oppressed countries because there never going to change the minds of the poeple oppressing them so they dont need to talk about it

 

no because you said you could never be convinced. yes it is horrible that people use tor for horrible things but that unfortunately is an inescapable reality of any system designed to allow anonymity of all users.

[Guest]

I'll say up front that I do not subscribe to the argument of "you don't need privacy if you have nothing to hide."

 

However, I don't see how it can come as a surprise to anyone that the overwhelming majority of people who desire the level of anonymity that tor provides are using it for bad stuff. Arguing that we need tor because a tiny number people use it to "evade oppressive governments" or something like that is like arguing that we need to allow hawala banking because sure, it's mostly used by terrorists and other criminals to move their money around without getting caught, but occasionally some refugees use it to get their money of of the hellholes they are trying to escape from so IT'S NOT ALL BAD.

 

As a staunch utilitarian I don't see how anyone can argue that the ability for people to have this much online anonymity is worth the tragic cost of all the harm it helps to propagate. Think of it like this: currently, bad people generally can't send bad stuff in the mail to each other because it is monitored fairly well. Imagine what the world would look like today if anyone, anywhere could send anything in a special envelope or package that the authorities could never look at. Here's a hint: you don't want to live in this world.

 

On balance, tor clearly enables far more harm than it does good, therefore it's existence is an objectively bad thing.

[Yoinkerman]

Well, kiddie porn is on the Internet, if you're on the Internet you're only one degree removed from kiddie porn. Hence, 100% of people on the Internet are relates to child porn.

See how easy this is?

[fringie]

Just use VPN. ISP won't see a thing

The VPN I use is less convenient (it's free, I only use it for getting game codes in specific regions) to use than Tor which is why I use Tor .

How about tell your ISP to do one and mind their business?

I don't think they would listen to me + they are the best for the price by far so I don't really wanna switch ISP .

[IdortMasterRace]

I don't think they would listen to me + they are the best for the price by far so I don't really wanna switch ISP .

 

My point is, they can't just accuse you of looking at child porn. They also would have zero evidence whether you were or not.

[HippY]

-snip-

. Think of it like this: currently, bad people generally can't send bad stuff in the mail to each other because it is monitored fairly well. Imagine what the world would look like today if anyone, anywhere could send anything in a special envelope or package that the authorities could never look at. Here's a hint: you don't want to live in this world.

 

On balance, tor clearly enables far more harm than it does good, therefore it's existence is an objectively bad thing.

about the post reference: as you mentioned, it is monitored fairly well, but still, people send drugs on post, and somehow they sort out that drugs get to the dealers and people, even though they do not use Royal Mail or DHL.

 

if Tor cease to exists they would find a new way to deliver CP for sure, but people who would need this service would be left alone.

Tor is not the reason why CP is there. 

[fringie]

My point is, they can't just accuse you of looking at child porn. They also would have zero evidence whether you were or not.

Oh their seems to be a misunderstanding, they haven't accused me of watching child pr0n. But it is illegal to look at child pr0n where I live and I wouldn't want to get in trouble for something I didn't do.

My original post:

 

I started using Tor recently to access torrenting sites (virgin media block quite a few - the only one I could access before was TPB using proxies) but anyone know how to stop yourself from being a host? Normally I'd be fine with it but I don't want my ISP thinking I look at child pr0n..

But it seems like another member cleared up that 80% of Tor users don't look at child pr0n. I was just wondering how you disable being a host on Tor.

[IdortMasterRace]

Oh their seems to be a misunderstanding, they haven't accused me of watching child pr0n. But it is illegal to look at child pr0n where I live and I wouldn't want to get in trouble for something I didn't do.

 

But it seems like another member cleared up that 80% of Tor users don't look at child pr0n. I was just wondering how you disable being a host on Tor.

 

I know what you meant. They can't just accuse you of looking at child porn just because you use Tor. This applies to being a host also.

 

By default, you aren't a host by the way. So if you haven't specifically set yourself as a host, then you should be fine.

[fringie]

I know what you meant. They can't just accuse you of looking at child porn just because you use Tor. This applies to being a host also.

 

By default, you aren't a host by the way. So if you haven't specifically set yourself as a host, then you should be fine.

I see all should be fine then.

 

Awesome *takes tin foil hat off*.

[jaggysnake57]

no because you said you could never be convinced. yes it is horrible that people use tor for horrible things but that unfortunately is an inescapable reality of any system designed to allow anonymity of all users.

 

this

 

I'll say up front that I do not subscribe to the argument of "you don't need privacy if you have nothing to hide."

 

However, I don't see how it can come as a surprise to anyone that the overwhelming majority of people who desire the level of anonymity that tor provides are using it for bad stuff. Arguing that we need tor because a tiny number people use it to "evade oppressive governments" or something like that is like arguing that we need to allow hawala banking because sure, it's mostly used by terrorists and other criminals to move their money around without getting caught, but occasionally some refugees use it to get their money of of the hellholes they are trying to escape from so IT'S NOT ALL BAD.

 

As a staunch utilitarian I don't see how anyone can argue that the ability for people to have this much online anonymity is worth the tragic cost of all the harm it helps to propagate. Think of it like this: currently, bad people generally can't send bad stuff in the mail to each other because it is monitored fairly well. Imagine what the world would look like today if anyone, anywhere could send anything in a special envelope or package that the authorities could never look at. Here's a hint: you don't want to live in this world.

 

On balance, tor clearly enables far more harm than it does good, therefore it's existence is an objectively bad thing.

[LPTechnoAce]

@LinusTech @Slick @nicklmg 

Save this for the next WAN show

[Blade of Grass]

I just want to remind people that this article is talking about people who use TOR to access hidden services (which from my understanding is about < 2% of the traffic). Not people who use TOR. 
 

if its purpose is to allow people to communicate in oppressed countries then why does it not try to shut down child porn sites?  ill tell you why because its making too much money from them not to.....all this "helping people in other countries" is crap and is tors way of gaining support

i read them...i call bullshit on them but i read them.  tor could if it wanted to, it could close down all the sites that are blatantly illegal and leave sites that give a voice to the oppressed and if you think they couldn't  then you sir are an idiot.  
 
tor is a vile disgusting system and i for one would see it took down it regardless of the good it does in oppressed countries, as a farther, its not worth the cost to the countless children that are abused because of it

The answer as to why it does not try to shut down child porn sites is that they cannot shut them down. TOR is not a centralised system, there is no one person in control of it. Part of the reason why this system is so secure is because of this very fact. Keep in mind, TOR was actually designed by the US Naval Research Laboratory as a way to secure and anonymize their communication, later on they realised that Onion Routing could be used for many other things, like securing a service from being able to go down (as no one knows where it is based). 
I'm highly doubtful that the TOR Project is being bribed by criminals to create their service - they're a not-for-profit and their financials are heavily audited (that is not to say that a NPO cannot be bribed, but just that it is unlikely). 
Unless you have proof that no one but criminals use TOR (which is not what the study is about, it is about hidden service users), then your last statement is purely speculative. 

 

Keep in mind, removing TOR does not eliminate the problem. It may temporarily affect them in the short-term, but after that they will just find another way of doing the same thing. Sadly, the only real way to eliminate this is to eliminate the root cause of the problem, and not to attack them through proxy. 
 

Have you read the OP?
 
I understand why so many people are defensive of TOR but at the same time, it's a wonder tool for those who do want to participate in illicit activities and far too many responses here refuse to accept that. I can't corroborate the findings but it clearly makes the claim that 80% of TOR traffic - the vast majority - is of CP, it's not a minority of bad usage. Also consider the fact that the remaining 20% of traffic will include other illicit activities. So it could end up with "legitimate uses" e.g. avoiding the surveillance of a repressive reigime making up a tiny proportion of traffic. Remember that those posting about their usage of TOR will never be representative of the user base - anybody who is participating in illicit activities is hardly going to announce it to the world.
 
The argument that even if the majority of people are using it for illicit reasons it should be allowed to enable the minority of people to use it legitamately is idiotic. It wouldn't be a force for good with a minor negative side-effect it would be a force for evil with a minor positve side-effect. You wouldn't roll out medicine that killed 99% of those who took it and cured the remaining 1%. Honestly if it turned out that 90% of TOR users were using it for illicit activities rather than any "legitimate" use then fuck it, ban / shut it down.
 
Of course the article may not be accurate and there is a response to it.
 
 
However do remember that the article(s) aren't automatically inaccurate just because you don't like the conclusion. Also consider whether either party is inherantly going to be biased. I don't know what biases Alex Biryukov, Ivan Pustogarov, Fabrice Thill and Ralf-Philipp Weinmann may or may not have but you can be sure that any post on "blog.torproject.org" is going to be positively biased. It's very easy to skew statistics by missing out information, knowingly making false assumptions etc in order to promote a predetermined position.
 
So ignoring the numbers suggested by either article for a moment: What percentage of TOR traffic needs to be child porn and similarly morally indefensible material for the negative effects of TOR to outweigh the positive? How many people who don't want a computer at GCHQ to scan their Merry Christmas email to Mum does it take to counter one consumer or producer of child porn?

Keep in mind, the study is on users of hidden services, not users of TOR. (one is a subset of the other)
To your last point, it is a good question, and one in which I don't have the solution for, just an opinion. I think that the day that TOR should be shut down is the day where it is no longer needed.

[jfing14]

Has anyone else ever used tor to diagnose network issues? Its great