Yet another German government vows to abandon Windows.

[BachChain]

Summary

Nearly 20 years after the debut of LiMux, the project where the city of Munich, as well as Lower Saxony, migrated the majority of their computer systems from Microsoft Windows to a custom Linux distribution before being cancelled in 2017, someone else is now ready to take on the challenge. This time, it's the state of Schleswig-Holstein. Citing the goals of independence, sustainability, and security, the state is planning on migrating its 30,000 computers to Linux and other open source software.

 

Quotes

Quote

 Concerns over data security are also front and center in the Minister-President's statement, especially data that may make its way to other countries. Back in 2021, when the transition plans were first being drawn up, the hardware requirements for Windows 11 were also mentioned as a reason to move away from Microsoft.

Quote

Both Munich and Lower Saxony never fully transitioned to Linux, which created the compatibility issues that encouraged both governments to go back to Windows. For example, Munich used Microsoft Exchange for its email servers, and Lower Saxony said field workers used Windows while only the office PCs were equipped with Linux.

Quote

Saunders noted that "the reasons for switching to Linux and LibreOffice are different today. Back when LiMux started, it was mostly seen as a way to save money. Now the focus is far more on data protection, privacy and security. Consider that the European Data Protection Supervisor (EDPS) recently found that the European Commission's use of Microsoft 365 breaches data protection law for EU institutions and bodies."

 

 

My thoughts

I hope them the best. Chipping away at Microsoft's business monopoly is always a good thing.

 

Sources

https://www.schleswig-holstein.de/DE/landesregierung/ministerien-behoerden/I/Presse/PI/2024/CdS/240403_cds_it-arbeitsplatz.html

https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/04/germanys_northernmost_state_ditches_windows/

[Catzzye]

Interesting, it would great if they also started contributing along with using but hey it's a great step already

[soldier_ph]

Heck yeah, good for them.

 

4 minutes ago, BachChain said:

Microsoft's business monopoly is away a good thing.

Also you have a typo there, *always* instead of *away*.

[Levent]

I mean its sure good news but 30K out of how many? Which devices will be upgraded? End user? POS? infrastructure? backend?

[Motifator]

Microsoft is digging their own 6 feet hole at the moment:

https://www.techpowerup.com/321170/windows-10-security-updates-to-cost-usd-61-after-2025-usd-427-by-2028

[Eigenvektor]

17 minutes ago, Motifator said:

Microsoft is digging their own 6 feet hole at the moment:
https://www.techpowerup.com/321170/windows-10-security-updates-to-cost-usd-61-after-2025-usd-427-by-2028

That's nothing new; that has always happened for products that are EOL. As a private consumer, why wouldn't you simply move to Windows 11 at that point?

 

If you want a much more severe Microsoft issue, it's this one:

https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/2024-04/CSRB_Review_of_the_Summer_2023_MEO_Intrusion_Final_508c.pdf

[whispous]

Anyone "shocked" that a nearly decade old version of Windows is going to lose support, sorry, have you been on a desert island for the last 30 years? How long do you really expect Microsoft to support an aging OS? Are you unfamiliar with the idea that technologies in both hardware and software evolve over time? There's even been, since the beginning of the 10 era, FREE upgrades that lasted years in a row - 7&8.1 to 10, and recently, 10 to 11. What do you want????

 

 

 

On the topic of government Linux, it gets more feasible with every passing year, but Linux distros still cannot shake off the repeated sins of all trying to have their own new special idea of how software is managed.

[Motifator]

27 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

That's nothing new; that has always happened for products that are EOL. As a private consumer, why wouldn't you simply move to Windows 11 at that point?

 

If you want a much more severe Microsoft issue, it's this one:

https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/2024-04/CSRB_Review_of_the_Summer_2023_MEO_Intrusion_Final_508c.pdf

I'd jump ship to Unix if it played well with all my toys. Musical toys, joysticks, etc. It makes a great mom OS for everyday tasking, I tried some of it back in the day for my mom. But 10 by far wins from the simplicity of the OS for me. The basic interface. As to asking $61, if I remember correctly, they either stopped delivering security patches or charged it for enterprise. It's not been a regular norm to ask that level of cash for simple security updates.

Can't stand much of 11 personally. Even if I get to make it look like 10.

[Ydfhlx]

32 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

That's nothing new; that has always happened for products that are EOL. As a private consumer, why wouldn't you simply move to Windows 11 at that point?

First of all, Windows 11 has very high system requirements. Many people simply can't run it.

 

Windows 10 has about 65-70% market share, compared to 26-28% of Windows 11. They are, cutting support far, far to early. Likely hundreds of millions, if not billions of users will loose support.

[whispous]

1 minute ago, Ydfhlx said:

First of all, Windows 11 has very high system requirements. Many people simply can't run it.

So, by the time Win10 EOL rolls around, 8th gen intel chips will be 8 years old.

 

So the youngest incompatibile computers will be 8 years old hardware.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Motifator said:

I'd jump ship to Unix if it played well with all my toys. 

 

I don't think many people would switch to Unix at all. Some flavor of Linux, FreeBSD maybe.

 

Usually what you find is people would rather use MacOS that can run "Unix" stuff than try to use any of Unix's other descendants on whitebox hardware.

 

Linux is this special case of "It's not Linux, but has supplanted Unix in many situations", but it has yet to establish itself as a stable platform in any shape, and unfortunately many alternatives (eg FreeBSD) which do have stable platforms, have done the same version inflation, and rapidly depreciate old versions of the OS rather than have long term support.

 

When we get an OS that is stable out of Linux Land, maybe that can change, but suffice it to say, it's quite telling when Windows applications are more compatible due to a Windows API re-implementation than any Linux or Unix software on Linux.  That doesn't help get native Linux applications, that just sends the message that you only need to develop for Windows.

 

 

But MacOS, is a pile of self-inflicted wounds.  If Apple would make it easier to just compile for MacOS without needing a Mac or XCode, Mac OS would likely do better.

 

[Ydfhlx]

2 hours ago, whispous said:

So the youngest incompatibile computers will be 8 years old hardware.

Which is still perfectly usable.

 

Anyway, this is all pointless arguing, because facts are that Windows 10 has about 2.5 as much users as 11. And it's loosing users not nearly fast enough to even be overtaken by it, let alone drop to insignificant market share.

 

The way it's looking now, as I said, it seems like Microsoft will drop support for hundreds of millions (possibly billions) of users. Some of them will upgrade, some are corporate users and will pay, some will buy buy new hardware to upgrade and tiny group will switch to Linux.

 

But tens of millions, and more likely hundreds of millions, will be using OS with no support. Is this what Microsoft wants?

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Ydfhlx said:

First of all, Windows 11 has very high system requirements. Many people simply can't run it.

 

Windows 10 has about 65-70% market share, compared to 26-28% of Windows 11. They are, cutting support far, far to early. Likely hundreds of millions, if not billions of users will loose support.

Too soon? Windows 7 was 10 years, Windows 10 also 10 years. Windows XP 12 years. I don't think 2 years matters a whole lot.

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, Ydfhlx said:

Anyway, this is all pointless arguing, because facts are that Windows 10 has about 2.5 as much users as 11. And it's loosing users not nearly fast enough to even be overtaken by it, let alone drop to insignificant market share.

The same arguments were made about Windows 7 and also Windows 10. People simply don't move OS until they have to, then it happens as fast as someone with food poisoning that needs to get to the bathroom.

 

Dotted line being Windows 11 and not meaningfully different to Windows 7 or Windows 10. Smaller uptake spike at the start but really not enough to matter overall. It's already vastly better uptake than Vista and Windows 8/8.1.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, BachChain said:

Concerns over data security are also front and center in the Minister-President's statement

That's nice however I wouldn't be all that surprised to see a news story in the next 5 years that they had an increase in security incidents related to a lack of knowledge and experience in Linux within their IT department and also users.

 

A move like this is a pretty serious undertaking and carries a ton of risks, lots of them people related.

[whispous]

9 minutes ago, Ydfhlx said:

Which is still perfectly usable.

 

Anyway, this is all pointless arguing, because facts are that Windows 10 has about 2.5 as much users as 11. And it's loosing users not nearly fast enough to even be overtaken by it, let alone drop to insignificant market share.

 

The way it's looking now, as I said, it seems like Microsoft will drop support for hundreds of millions (possibly billions) of users. Some of them will upgrade, some are corporate users and will pay, some will buy buy new hardware to upgrade and tiny group will switch to Linux.

 

But tens of millions, and more likely hundreds of millions, will be using OS with no support. Is this what Microsoft wants?

Yea and my Psion 5 is "perfectly usable" too. Where's the cutoff?

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, whispous said:

Yea and my Psion 5 is "perfectly usable" too. Where's the cutoff?

When it effects me and I have to buy a new PC 

[whispous]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

When it effects me and I have to buy a new PC 

Well guess what, EOL means it's affecting you

[Ydfhlx]

54 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Too soon? Windows 7 was 10 years, Windows 10 also 10 years. Windows XP 12 years. I don't think 2 years matters a whole lot.

Yeah, but they released 8 and 10 not that long after 7 (especially 8). With 10, Microsoft for a long time had a policy of having it as the last OS. This also means that users have little to no incentive to actually upgrade. Also, as I said, the hardware requirements. Especially in the poorer countries, some people just have older systems.

 

Again, this brings me back to my main point. If nothing major happens (and why would it), Microsoft will EOL a system used by 50-60% of their users. IMO that's a terrible idea, but what do I know, I'm not an exec.

[Ydfhlx]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

When it effects me and I have to buy a new PC 

Only now did I realise it's about me. And actually you're wrong, I don't have to buy anything new. I even have Windows 11 on my home PC.

 

Besides, you all keep missing my point. The problem ISN'T that you can't keep using old computer. That is part of the reason behind the problem.

 

The actual problem is that ~60% of Windows users will still (very likely) use Windows 10 when it's EOL! That's a major security issue. It also mean that app developers will have to support Windows 10 longer than Microsoft does. Or else they risk their app not working on PCs of a large part of their user base. So, answering question, where's the cutoff? I don't know how many of the users are corporate who can just pay, but probably Microsoft shouldn't EOL a system with more than 15, maybe 20% market share.

 

Where are all the people who want phone companies to support their devices for longer? Samsung offers 7 years of software updates now, almost nobody says it's too long. Why is it that when Microsoft limits support to 8 years, suddenly it's way too long and I'm complaining for no reason? PCs last much much longer than phones. I know multiple people who use decade old computers as a secondary ones, or even primary in some cases.

 

Edit: Even among steam users, which has no corporate users, and who are on average less likely to use an old PC, Windows 10 has 54% market share. EOLing something this popular is (imo) insane.

[jagdtigger]

24 minutes ago, Ydfhlx said:

EOLing something this popular is (imo) insane.

Because you think like a proper human and not like a rapist....... But MS does, they think they have the right to do anything on/with your PC they see fit and you shouldnt have any say in the matter. Some ight think this is overly harsh but their MO is pretty clear at this point.

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, Ydfhlx said:

Only now did I realise it's about me. And actually you're wrong, I don't have to buy anything new. I even have Windows 11 on my home PC.

It wasn't really specifically about you, but included yes. People tend to really only care when it affects them otherwise there is little reason to. Just how it goes.

[leadeater]

7 hours ago, Ydfhlx said:

Yeah, but they released 8 and 10 not that long after 7 (especially 8). With 10, Microsoft for a long time had a policy of having it as the last OS. This also means that users have little to no incentive to actually upgrade. Also, as I said, the hardware requirements. Especially in the poorer countries, some people just have older systems.

This is simply flawed though, how Windows 10 "was treated" actually doesn't change at all the release cycles of Windows or time frames between each one, that matters in this context of saying too soon for OEL or whatever.

 

Intfact going by time between major OS releases and EOL Windows XP is easily the "forever/last" OS.

 

Release Years:

• Windows XP: 2001, 2014
• Windows Vista: 2007, 2017
• Windows 7: 2009, 2020
• Windows 8: 2012, 2023
• Windows 10: 2015, OEL 2025
• Windows 11: 2021

The time frame between Windows 10 to 11 is the same as XP to 7. The fact we may have similar "XP" problems isn't really a surprise.

 

Additionally when does the majority upgrade operating systems? When they have to because what they have no longer meets their requirements or it has failed and if you hardware cannot run a supported operating system and the software you use stops working or you can't use a new feature i.e DX10 that is when upgrades happen.

 

People don't just upgrade operating systems because a new one comes out, that is legitimately not what happens. The only place that happens is Mac OS, very few stay on older major versions.

 

7 hours ago, Ydfhlx said:

Why is it that when Microsoft limits support to 8 years

8 Years? Where are you getting this from? Windows 10 is 10 years.

 

7 hours ago, Ydfhlx said:

Again, this brings me back to my main point. If nothing major happens (and why would it), Microsoft will EOL a system used by 50-60%

This was and will always happen. Thinking otherwise is discounting human behavior and that people actually do with the lifecycle of their computer. It is naïve to think another 2-5 years would significantly change anything. If today it's 60% then in 5 years times it'll still be around 50% and you'd still be complaining.

 

7 hours ago, Ydfhlx said:

I'm not an exec.

No you are not, which also means you don't have to at all think about the support requirements of the OS and if it is justified to keep supporting it with no supporting revenue bases or at a loss.

 

7 hours ago, Ydfhlx said:

but probably Microsoft shouldn't EOL a system with more than 15, maybe 20% market share.

Windows XP, Windows 7? Both above 20% when EOL.

 

I hope you also at the same time realize you are asking for the impossible.

 

6 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Because you think like a proper human

See above, a proper human wouldn't change anything about when Windows 10 going EOL. There is nothing Microsoft can do to change this situation and it has played out over and over and yet you and others want to complain about it with no consideration for the past.

 

It's going to happen again, and again, and again. It's not going to change. You are not going to change how people life cycle their hardware which also means their operating systems without changing how they own their hardware aka not owning it at all.

[jagdtigger]

4 hours ago, leadeater said:

There is nothing Microsoft can do to change this situation

Oh yeah sure............ They just going to deliver yet another nagware to users via "updates" and start force upgrading downgrading users again......

(They also preparing for this, customization tools are broken and blocked on the 24h2 release already.)
 

[RejZoR]

Linux has been quite mature for a lot of things, its main issue is still gaming as graphic companies don't really put much effort into it and neither do game studios. Valve's approach of emulation and compatibility hacking/patching is really not the way.

 

It is weird how companies where Windows isn't really needed still insist on it. Is it because of familiarity people have with Windows? I can totally see my work using I don't know, Kubuntu to really go with most vanilla Linux approach. It has almost the same layout as Windows with KDE and all the stuff I run is Java and inside browser anyway which can run on any Linux. Then again, most coworkers aren't even familiar with Windows either so I'm kinda confused why. Is administration of Windows easier than Linux?