Yet another German government vows to abandon Windows.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

Oh yeah sure............ They just going to deliver yet another nagware to users via "updates" and start force upgrading downgrading users again......

(They also preparing for this, customization tools are broken and blocked on the 24h2 release already.)
 

That still doesn't actually change the situation though, people staying on an old OS that has been publicly said well in advance is going out of support. Microsoft did try to change this with Windows 10 and forced upgrade before EOL but nobody wanted that so they aren't going to do that again. At the date of EOL as a little late and as mentioned doesn't change the situation.

[leadeater]

26 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Linux has been quite mature for a lot of things, its main issue is still gaming as graphic companies don't really put much effort into it and neither do game studios. Valve's approach of emulation and compatibility hacking/patching is really not the way.

 

It is weird how companies where Windows isn't really needed still insist on it. Is it because of familiarity people have with Windows? I can totally see my work using I don't know, Kubuntu to really go with most vanilla Linux approach. It has almost the same layout as Windows with KDE and all the stuff I run is Java and inside browser anyway which can run on any Linux. Then again, most coworkers aren't even familiar with Windows either so I'm kinda confused why. Is administration of Windows easier than Linux?

The problem is in standard operating environment (SOE) management and policies. There simply isn't such an equivalent to group policy in Linux land and that actually is a problem for networks with around  50 computers and more. There aren't no options and it's certainly possible, companies do, run Linux but the reality is Linux is deficient in this aspect compared to Windows and a lot of places that do run Linux are also not workplaces full of typical end users.

 

So the answer to the last bit you said is yes, greatly so. However the more companies switch over to full Linux environment the more this will get addressed and better.

 

Also the pool of Linux capable administrators and engineers is simply less compared to Windows. So while there are technical challenges moving to all or mostly Linux I've always seen it as a majority people issue first.

[starsmine]

I for one am happy windows 10 is going EOL so I can finally get a strong reason to get my dad off of his first gen i7 920 that he keeps saying does the job just fine. And while it does, it really doesn't other then the triple channel memory being cool for his use case (family trees that are 12GB+ large sitting in ram). but compressing and decompressing said trees out of ram to a m.2 would still be 10x faster on a newer system. 

I do hope that they are able to get linux to work. I dont fully understand why the struggle is there so long as a software suite is there to meet the process needs of the administration. 

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Is administration of Windows easier than Linux?

When dealing with thousands of machines at an org, you need a platform that can be centrally managed within an IT department for policy enforcements (GPOs), patching, provisioning, and software deployment. Windows is "easier" in that there's a whole lot of official documentation with Microsoft backing it along with a 3rd party ecosystem.

With Linux, you're relying on a vendor implementation of it for support; say for example a virtual appliance or as a packaged solution with their lifecycle support behind it. Or, you just have far fewer Linux servers running with dedicated admins maintaining them.

I wouldn't say you can't run an entire org on FOSS, but rather it's the devil that you know vs the one you don't. Often is the lack of Linux admins in the market place (Windows admins are cheaper) too.

The irony is that if the world changes to Linux from Windows, it's because they will run a Microsoft flavor of Linux. 

[ToboRobot]

Local, regional, federal governments should all be working together to invest in open source software.

Governments should run on OSS. 

Software can also replace a lot of bureaucracy and politicians, so I don't think it will happen.  But it should.

 

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

There simply isn't such an equivalent to group policy in Linux land

Suse linux and yast would like to have a word with you......

[Donut417]

18 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

a private consumer, why wouldn't you simply move to Windows 11 at that point?

Because your computer doesn’t officially support it. My mom’s machine doesn’t support it officially, and she is not going to want to buy a new machine when the one she has works for what she uses it for. 

[Monkey Dust]

Good luck to whoever has to tell the finance teams they can no longer use Excel. LibreOffice's Calc is OK, much better than the abomination that Apple ship with Macs, but it is still a long way behind Excel.

 

A lot of stuff people use in office environments is web based, or can be web based, making it OS-agnostic. IMO ditching MS Office (or 365 as they now call it for some inexplicable reason) would be the much bigger deal for end users.

 

Still, more large organizations using OSS will help push things forward.

[StDragon]

42 minutes ago, Monkey Dust said:

A lot of stuff people use in office environments is web based, or can be web based, making it OS-agnostic. IMO ditching MS Office (or 365 as they now call it for some inexplicable reason) would be the much bigger deal for end users.

MS Office, specifically Outlook is a big anchor that that keeps the majority of orgs on Windows.

 

The "New Outlook" is garbage in terms of productivity. If this forces people to use OWA in browser, I could see certain orgs on a shoestring budget use Linux with refurbished hardware.

[Donut417]

1 hour ago, Monkey Dust said:

can be web based, making it OS-agnostic. IMO ditching MS Office (or 365 as they now call it for some inexplicable reason) would be the much bigger deal for end users.

I wonder how Google's productivity software compares? I use Google Sheets for my budget spreadsheet and it works for how I use it.

[Kisai]

Windows has had a variable EOL

 

If you include all versions of windows going back to 1.01, all versions of windows between 1.01 Thru to Windows 95 EOL'd in 2001

98/98SE and ME EOL 2006 ( 8, 7 and 6 years)

Windows NT 3.51 1995 to 2001 (6 years)

Windows NT 4.0 1996 to 2004 ( 8 years)

Windows 2000 2000 to 2010 ( 10 years)

Windows XP 2001 to 2014 ( 13 years)

Windows Vista 2007 to 2017 ( 10 years)

Windows 7 2009 to 2020 (11 years)

Windows 8 2012 to 2016 ( 4 years)

Windows 8.1 2013 to 2023 (10 years)

Windows 10 2015 to 2025 (10 years)

Windows 11 2021 to undefined

 

Now if you want to nitpick Windows 8, 8.1, 10 and 11 are the same OS. Microsoft basically rolled out sub versions starting with 8 that were equal to the service packs of NT 4. So each of these individual versions have small EOL dates. So Windows 10 1507 still has LTSB to 2024, even though GAC is 2017. 21H2 was released in 2021, and ends 2023, but LTSB is to 2032

 

So yes "Windows 10" has lasted 10 years, but each of the builds were 2 years.

 

Compare this with , say FreeBSD. Which 4.x had 7 years, 5.x had 5 years and every major version has been 5 years, but the point versions are frequently only 1 year. Which absolutely sucks except for the fact you can upgrade directly from 4.x to 13.x on the same hardware (personal experience) without ever having to reinstall things. So that's like having 25 years of support. Though it's not really that, FreeBSD has been removing hardware support and thus 13.x and 14.x will not run on the same hardware that was out with 4.x. FreeBSD also has immense code rot. So the ports packages are completely nuked when the OS goes EOL, so you are totally screwed the minute the OS goes EOL on that old hardware.. No upgrade path. Throw your server away.

 

I sometimes thought the cobol Y2K stuff was a bit silly, but here we are with the OS vendors deciding to arbitrarily nuke support for hardware just so they can release frequently. Linux is no better. Every piece of old hardware needs a maintainer for it's drivers or it risks disappearing there too.

 

 

[jagdtigger]

On 4/6/2024 at 5:16 PM, Donut417 said:

I wonder how Google's productivity software compares? I use Google Sheets for my budget spreadsheet and it works for how I use it.

Unless it has something like excel VBA it wont get far......... (yes, companies actually still use that abomination)

[leadeater]

On 4/7/2024 at 1:08 AM, jagdtigger said:

Suse linux and yast would like to have a word with you......

Oh gee as if I don't already know about both, no the issue still stands. YaST wishes it was equivalent to but it's not, not yet. The breadth alone that even just native Microsoft/Windows tools offers for user and computer management and configuration is vastly better than Linux.

 

You can get there in Linux but you have to do tons of the leg work yourself, lots of it.

 

Also did you know that you can apply/map GPO settings through to Linux, through winbind.

 

Someone critiques Linux, someone else assume they don't know anything about Linux, every time. Never fails 

 

Here's tip: Linux doesn't have to be the best at or for everything, just like Windows and Mac OS aren't either.

[leadeater]

On 4/7/2024 at 3:16 AM, Donut417 said:

I wonder how Google's productivity software compares? I use Google Sheets for my budget spreadsheet and it works for how I use it.

Google Suite is used a lot in education, like a lot. I know quite a few businesses that use it. It's pretty good, especially if you don't have much legacy stuff that would limit you. Personally I hate Google Sheets compared to Excel and I use that enough it's a problem. Every time I use Sheets for the forum F@H events it reminds me how much I dislike Sheets.

[jagdtigger]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Oh gee as if I don't already know about both, no the issue still stands. YaST wishes it was equivalent to but it's not, not yet. The breadth alone that even just native Microsoft/Windows tools offers for user and computer management and configuration is vastly better than Linux.

Yeah true, if you set something it will honor it instead of ignoring it on totally arbitrary reasons like windows does....... Linux also have a lot of native tools that can automate a cr@p ton of things, and again unlike windows it wont ignore things willy-nilly. Is it a learning curve? Yes. Is it better than a paid SW that is essentially is always in beta? Hell yeah! (And dont even attempt to defend MS here, they released way too many faulty updates to not consider them beta[or maybe even alpha].)

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

and again unlike windows it wont ignore things willy-nilly

Group Policy Setting don't get ignored willy-nilly, that's what they are for. Why are you bringing in your reg hack, delete files, disable services mindset in to a discussion about actually serious management tools?

 

If I create a Group Policy to restrict opening Task Manager for all users then it's not going to open and it's not going to randomly not do this.

 

11 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Linux also have a lot of native tools that can automate a cr@p ton of things

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about for desktop management for a network. For one no there are no native tools for this, secondly native Windows/Microsoft means comes from Microsoft in the OS by default. Using a package manager to install something that is in the included repos of a Linux distro isn't the same thing. In fact due to what Linux is it's almost unfair or not relevant to distinguish so strictly between native tools and not.

 

But don't come here with what I know you have, no real experience in managing large networks and say a tool like YaST is on the level of Group Policy. That's like saying melted cheese on toast is Pizza, sure it's Pizza like and tastes nice but it's not really Pizza is it?

 

P.S. Referring to "automating things" just shows the lack of understating of User and Computer management in general.

 

11 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

(And dont even attempt to defend MS here, they released way too many faulty updates to not consider them beta[or maybe even alpha].)

100% Irrelevant in this discussion.

[jagdtigger]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Group Policy Setting don't get ignored willy-nilly, that's what they are for.

Yeah sure, like the telemetry GP? Starting to have doubts if you really know what you are talking about.......

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Yeah sure, like the telemetry GP? Starting to have doubts if you really know what you are talking about.......

What point are you trying to make. Do you even know what the GPO telemetry controls are and what each setting does? Lets start with what you know first before you makes claims about what is or is not happening, what breaks or what randomly happens or not.

[StDragon]

19 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Yeah sure, like the telemetry GP? Starting to have doubts if you really know what you are talking about.......

From a policy (Local or GPO): Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Data Collection and Preview Builds.

One in specific is called "Allow Diagnostic Data". Once you enable this object, from there you can turn diagnostic data off. And yes, you have to enable so that you can unhide the option in order to change the behavior of this item. (Strange concept to enable to disable, but that's always been that way with GPOs)
 

Quote

 

"By configuring this policy setting you can adjust what diagnostic data is collected from Windows. This policy setting also restricts the user from increasing the amount of diagnostic data collection via the Settings app. The diagnostic data collected under this policy impacts the operating system and apps that are considered part of Windows and does not apply to any additional apps installed by your organization.

    - Diagnostic data off (not recommended). Using this value, no diagnostic data is sent from the device. This value is only supported on Enterprise, Education, and Server editions.
    - Send required diagnostic data. This is the minimum diagnostic data necessary to keep Windows secure, up to date, and performing as expected. Using this value disables the "Optional diagnostic data" control in the Settings app.
    - Send optional diagnostic data. Additional diagnostic data is collected that helps us to detect, diagnose and fix issues, as well as make product improvements. Required diagnostic data will always be included when you choose to send optional diagnostic data.  Optional diagnostic data can also include diagnostic log files and crash dumps. Use the "Limit Dump Collection" and the "Limit Diagnostic Log Collection" policies for more granular control of what optional diagnostic data is sent.

 

If you disable or do not configure this policy setting, the device will send required diagnostic data and the end user can choose whether to send optional diagnostic data from the Settings app.

 

Note:
The "Configure diagnostic data opt-in settings user interface" group policy can be used to prevent end users from changing their data collection settings.

 

If you want, you can block via DNS with the listed records listed here.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/configure-windows-diagnostic-data-in-your-organization#manage-diagnostic-data-using-group-policy-and-mdm

Also, here's a link specifically about managing telemetry via GPO and MDM.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/privacy/configure-windows-diagnostic-data-in-your-organization#manage-diagnostic-data-using-group-policy-and-mdm

FYI, GPOs just control the registry in their own way. But at the end of the day, they're all registry changes and enforcement to those changes. If you prefer, you can do this manually using a 3rd part UI app called O&O ShutUp10++ as it can provide more granular control. The toggle switches are just UI way of changing the corresponding reg values in the background.

[jagdtigger]

11 hours ago, StDragon said:

- Diagnostic data off (not recommended). Using this value, no diagnostic data is sent from the device. This value is only supported on Enterprise, Education, and Server editions.

Thanks, dont have to fire up a VM just to dig out this. You can set all the things you want if the system can arbitrarily* simply ignore them.........
(And this aint the only thing that does this and should also work on any version of windows, and aint limited to GPs only.)

(* dont even start, its a hard fact and not up for debate)

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

(* dont even start, its a hard fact and not up for debate)

Then why did you start. You just don't like how Windows functions and edition restrictions which isn't the claimed GPO are ignored. Neither does it address any feature and capability differences between what you can do with just Active Directory and Group Policies and YaST. YaST categorically cannot do what Group Policies does, it's a system configuration tool aka local which just isn't what Group Policy is or is for. If you actually did understand the subject matter you would have known this and we wouldn't have to be discussing this.

 

If you want something better and more applicable then you'd be pointing to Puppet or Ansible, or any of the other alternative of these.

 

There is a reason Microsoft's management tools and capabilities get copied by Linux tools, they are actually good.

 

General criticisms no matter how valid or personal to you simply didn't have any baring over the comment of mine you replied to. If you want to throw out "don't starts" it would be best if you follow your own advice. It's quite apparent to me you've never actually done any network management of Windows or Linux desktops for any significant amount of time or network complexity.

 

You come in here claiming GPO gets ignore and act like it's a problem with Windows Management with zero evidence that happens, because it doesn't. Not liking that you aren't allowed to use setting level 0 because you don't have the sufficient edition of Windows isn't a problem with the Windows management tools, and by all means say it's crappy that you can't. But again this didn't ever address the deficiencies that exist for Linux with User and Computer policies and management.

 

Heck I think it's stupid that Home edition isn't "allowed" to use Local Policies, you can force it in but that's not a good solution. There are a lot of things Home edition can't do and I've never felt the need to try and make it do those things or use it on a corporate/business network either. Some things just don't matter in context.

 

I'm not debating or going to debate things you don't like about Windows itself, you wanted to claim YaST was equivalent to Group Policy while it just isn't. Equivalent being of the same level of capabilities and features with all the ease of use. And Group Policy isn't an isolated thing, it works in conjunction with Active Directory and Organizational Unit (OU) structures that gives a very flexible way of scoping policies to Users and/or Computers with many additional filtering capabilities if required.

 

YaST is not a "Group Policy" tool and anyone that tries to say it is doesn't know the subject matter enough, because if they did they wouldn't say it. "YaST (Yet another Setup Tool)", it's literally in the name what it is which also tells you what it is not.

 

Stop and take a moment to figure out if you have the requisite experience and knowledge to debate network desktop and user management or if you just want to argue about things you don't like about Windows and how you think Linux is better. The latter I have no interest in, at all.

[tim0901]

Orgs are really the reason why Win 10 has such a big marketshare still - most simply haven't moved across yet. Even if you ignore the fact that Win 10 only has 18 months left, it's only within the last 6-12 months that many admins would have even started to consider moving to 11 at all, simply because of its age - new versions of Windows have a reputation of being buggy with all sorts of weird software quirks that you just don't want to deal with on a large scale (yes Win 11 mostly avoided this, but many admins have just been burned too many times) but which you can mostly avoid by letting the OS mature for a year or so. And that's despite the fact that Win 11 has some really cool features for sysadmins that very much incentivise them to upgrade.

 

There's also a number of people hoping that they can jump straight to Windows 12 - thanks to all the rumours that have been floating around - just like how many orgs went straight from Win 7 to WIn 10, but how many this actually represents I've no idea.

[leadeater]

36 minutes ago, tim0901 said:

Orgs are really the reason why Win 10 has such a big marketshare still - most simply haven't moved across yet. Even if you ignore the fact that Win 10 only has 18 months left, it's only within the last 6-12 months that many admins would have even started to consider moving to 11 at all, simply because of its age - new versions of Windows have a reputation of being buggy with all sorts of weird software quirks that you just don't want to deal with on a large scale (yes Win 11 mostly avoided this, but many admins have just been burned too many times) but which you can mostly avoid by letting the OS mature for a year or so.

Yep, don't think I have ever migrated any sooner than a full year. We're still Windows 10 and part of that is we are waiting out the last of our non Windows 11 suitable hardware to lifecycle out.

 

We also took the opportunity to do a lot of end user experience testing of Windows 11 with VDI since we roll that out wider scale due to the whole pandemic thing and not having on campus lectures, so no access to computer labs for students or staff/researchers etc.

 

There is tons of reluctance moving between Windows, like when we moved to Windows 10 we had the bug where the start menu just broke and wouldn't work and had to reinstall the OS on a few thousand computers. What a giant pain in the ass.

[Donut417]

26 minutes ago, leadeater said:

10 we had the bug where the start menu just broke and wouldn't work and had to reinstall the OS on a few thousand computers. What a giant pain in the ass.

I recalled when I upgrade from 7 to 10, the One Drive integration broke. I also had issues with graphical glitches of the mouse cursor. I had to use that borked install for the better part of a year due to school. The mouse cursor bug never went away even after clean installs. Might have been crappy AMD GPU drivers however.

 

Ill probably move the gaming machine to 11 next year. Because Im not sure how much of a pain in the ass its going to be to upgrade. Like do I have to reinstall Windows 10 then upgrade to 11, or can I just upgrade to 11 and my digital key will just work? My key originally was a Windows 7 key and everything online says it will work or it will not work, there's no certainty. My experience with upgrade installs has not been great. So Microsoft will have to drag me kicking and screaming, OR ill just give up on Windows all together.

[StDragon]

25 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Ill probably move the gaming machine to 11 next year. Because Im not sure how much of a pain in the ass its going to be to upgrade. 

Upgrades don't typically break things badly, specifically when going from Win10 22H2 to Win11 23H2. But you will find oddities of certain things not working as expected or outright missing in registry.

 

Windows 11 24H2 this fall is going to be the "big one". A relatively mature and rock solid OS now, but with additional enhancements and features. For this, I recommend a clean format and install. That's exactly what I plan on doing too.