Yuzu being sued by Nintendo

[PenguinNexus]

As has been in the news recently, Nintendo are currently seeking damages from Yuzu. I really hope this doesn't become a new Gary Bowser situation as it's primary purpose is NOT for piracy!

 

https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-is-suing-the-makers-of-the-switch-emulator-yuzu-claims-there-is-no-lawful-way-to-use-yuzu/

https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/27/24085075/nintendo-switch-emulator-yuzu-lawsuit

https://www.polygon.com/24085140/nintendo-totk-leaked-yuzu-lawsuit-emulator

 

[Blasty Blosty]

Strange that they left it this long to say something, its been out a good while now

[manikyath]

i dont think LTT can do much here...

 

also - there's some key differences here;

mostly the fact yuzu isnt selling anything.

[LogicalDrm]

What do you want small tech Youtuber to do? They can voice their dislike, but you can see from Nvidia how well that worked.

[PenguinNexus]

True, I don't expect them to be able to do anything, but would be nice to raise awareness on the WAN show / speak against Nintendo on the main channel etc

[Blue4130]

29 minutes ago, PenguinNexus said:

As has been in the news recently, Nintendo are currently seeking damages from Yuzu. I really hope this doesn't become a new Gary Bowser situation. LTT please speak up in favour of emulation, it's primary purpose is NOT for piracy!

 

https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-is-suing-the-makers-of-the-switch-emulator-yuzu-claims-there-is-no-lawful-way-to-use-yuzu/

https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/27/24085075/nintendo-switch-emulator-yuzu-lawsuit

https://www.polygon.com/24085140/nintendo-totk-leaked-yuzu-lawsuit-emulator

 

Nintendo emulators have been around for decades at this point. I recall using nesticle in the late 90's. As long as they aren't selling, there is not a whole lot that Nintendo can do, other than tie them up in red tape...

[TetraSky]

Emulators have always been a grey area. I wonder what changed for Nintendo to decide to sue now...

Surely they don't use anything made by Nintendo in their emulation.

 

Quote

Nintendo argued that Yuzu executes codes that “defeat” Nintendo’s security measures, including decryption using “an illegally-obtained copy of prod.keys.”

As long as Yuzu devs are not distributing it themselves, Nintendo shouldn't have a case on this...  

Officially, you have to source it from your own Switch. Yuzu is just a platform that exist. They don't distribute anything copyrighted by Nintendo.

Nintendo is basically pointing at them saying "they are enabling this". But emulators have existed for a long time and surely there has been precedents in court before (probably from Nintendo) to say it's not infringing on anything because it's not actually using anything copyrighted.

 

I'm guessing Nintendo lawyers are high on victory fume after suing and winning against a ROM site and a Switch hacker (Gary Bowser).

[Thaldor]

Nintendo doing Nintendo stuff, you reap what you sow (that goes both ways, going against Nintendo and people supporting Nintendo by buying the overpriced and kneecapped Nvidia Shield (originally K1)).

 

Ars Technica breaks the thing down a bit more for those interested. Basicly Nintendo is doing what Nintendo does, fights windmills with Mario money, going after decades of rulings favoring the "Bring your own mallet" emulation, testing the DMCA's ban on breaking "developed" copyprotections, arguing that even PHYSICAL games are only licenses to use that one single copy, downplaying homebrewing (which I kind of understand because like how many actual homebrew games have been released? There's mostly one of each necessity programs like media player and browser and if they have huge flaws then a second one, leaving emulators out of this one for "you know" reason), accessibility "Yuzu would need to point to some ACTUAL example of accessibility" and mostly Nintendo seeking to frighten off people from emulating the overpriced and kneecapped Nvidia Shield (originally K1).

[Nayr438]

1 hour ago, TetraSky said:

Emulators have always been a grey area. I wonder what changed for Nintendo to decide to sue now...

Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom was leaked two weeks before it's release and was made playable on yuzu.
Should be noted however that the title actually didn't officially work on yuzu until after its official release, but there were community patches to make it playable.

 

As far as what they are actually targeting, its the DRM Circumvention. While yuzu itself doesn't ship the keys necessary Nintendo calls out their quickstart and discord server for telling users how to dump the decryption keys and game files. Nintendo is also claiming there is no lawful way to use yuzu without these.

[RasOls89]

1 hour ago, PenguinNexus said:

True, I don't expect them to be able to do anything, but would be nice to raise awareness on the WAN show / speak against Nintendo on the main channel etc

They did speak up against nintendo on WAN show on the general principle when they where taking down youtube videos that run emulators on steam deck 

And challanged Nintendo to take down their own video 

Not sure that there is anything more they really can do.

[Poinkachu]

4 hours ago, PenguinNexus said:

As has been in the news recently, Nintendo are currently seeking damages from Yuzu. I really hope this doesn't become a new Gary Bowser situation. LTT please speak up in favour of emulation, it's primary purpose is NOT for piracy!

 

https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-is-suing-the-makers-of-the-switch-emulator-yuzu-claims-there-is-no-lawful-way-to-use-yuzu/

https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/27/24085075/nintendo-switch-emulator-yuzu-lawsuit

https://www.polygon.com/24085140/nintendo-totk-leaked-yuzu-lawsuit-emulator

 

Even if every youtubers talk against Nintendo's move about emulation.

Nintendo: IDGAF

 

4 hours ago, PenguinNexus said:

True, I don't expect them to be able to do anything, but would be nice to raise awareness on the WAN show / speak against Nintendo on the main channel etc

Pretty sure those who are so into Tech already know that Nintendo really likes to flex their legal power, and that they're so DGAF about voices that against their next move.

How many DMCAs and CnDs they sent by now ?

 

IMO there's only 2 ways to stop Nintendo :

- Court ruling

- A boycott so big they (Nintendo) actually feel it

 

The 2nd option is pretty much a pipedream.

[GoStormPlays]

Man, this does suck that this is happening. Though I imagine LTT doesn’t generally speak up about this sort of thing, I do believe that LMG was going to start using this emulator for benchmarking phones and tablets. I don’t know what they’ll do about that, though.

 

One of those situations where you wait until WAN Show for an answer.

[starsmine]

the lawsuit is 100% valid if and only if yuzo uses a Nintendo bios or looked at the bios and provides that said bios file, or if they provide prod.keys.

what do you think LTT can do? Im honestly at a complete and total loss at what you think they can do.
 

[wanderingfool2]

1 hour ago, starsmine said:

the lawsuit is 100% valid if and only if yuzo uses a Nintendo bios or looked at the bios and provides that said bios file, or if they provide prod.keys.

Actually that's not true; the DMCA is a beast of an act.

 

Under the DMCA  it also is illegal to provide software whose intent is also to circumvent.

 

What probably set-up Yuzu, speculation here, for being targeted by Nintendo is there admission that the majority of people use pirated ones and that Yuzu had provided a guide on how to get the prod.keys.

 

Now providing a guide on how to get the keys, when you know that getting the keys also violates the DMCA, and having a tool that utilizes said key is probably where Nintendo thinks they have a lot more of a slam dunk of a case.

 

I wouldn't be surprised that if Nintendo ends up winning that they might also use this as the beginning of a way to start chipping down the legal barriers they need to cross to take others to court.   After-all, if they happen to win here, they could go after other emulators pointing to the case law here.

[starsmine]

12 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Actually that's not true; the DMCA is a beast of an act.

 

Under the DMCA  it also is illegal to provide software whose intent is also to circumvent.

 

What probably set-up Yuzu, speculation here, for being targeted by Nintendo is there admission that the majority of people use pirated ones and that Yuzu had provided a guide on how to get the prod.keys.

 

Now providing a guide on how to get the keys, when you know that getting the keys also violates the DMCA, and having a tool that utilizes said key is probably where Nintendo thinks they have a lot more of a slam dunk of a case.

 

I wouldn't be surprised that if Nintendo ends up winning that they might also use this as the beginning of a way to start chipping down the legal barriers they need to cross to take others to court.   After-all, if they happen to win here, they could go after other emulators pointing to the case law here.

doesnt yuzu only provide guides to grabbing prod.keys off of your own switch? I would find it difficult to argue that doing such a thing is illegal. And they would be suing the wrong people as you would sue Hekete, not Yuzu. Hekete is the software used to dump prod.keys.

Yuzu just says, go use hekete. 

[wanderingfool2]

1 minute ago, starsmine said:

doesnt yuzu only provide guides to grabbing prod.keys off of your own switch? I would find it difficult to argue that doing such a thing is illegal. And they would be suing the wrong people as you would sue Hekete, not Yuzu.

17 U.S.C. 1201

Quote

(2)No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
(A)is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
(B)has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
(C)is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person’s knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

So right off the bat, B makes almost all emulators in a grey area...whether or not they provide the decryption keys; as the primary purpose is to play the games, but to do so you must accept that all users using it have obtained the keys illegally.  It's a grey area that Nintendo hasn't wanted to fight fully in courts in the past (likely because if they lost they have then lost all leverage).

 

Where Yuzu falls prey to is I think (c).  By telling people the methods to do it, and providing software that utilizes the key Nintendo has that extra weapon that Yuzu's purpose is to help facilitate the bypass the copyright measures.

 

Either way, it's hard to deny that they promoted a method to circumvent by effectively showing how to get the keys.  And honestly, I have a feeling that Nintendo might win, because it's no longer just a grey area where they have a chance of winning but they now have 2 areas they can fight essentially

 

 

As to why Yuzu and not Hekete, the simple fact that it gives them more power.  It's the idiom "cutting off the head of the snake", if they went after Hekete you still have emulators and people will still just download the decryption keys...if they go after Yuzu and win (or get them to stop) you effectively halt development of Switch emulators

[Birblover12]

Didn't Nintendo already try their hand in lawsuits against emulators and lose terribly a while back? I suppose they're within their right to contest the usage, thought they would have learned the first few times. It does feel like this one is on more basis then the other ones a while back, but still rough.

 

It does look like they care less about the emulator it self and more about the documentation about how to get it up and running. I'm no lawyer, so could be wrong, but I feel like it doesn't have a lot of merit cause the emulator is not actually causing any harm, they simply "exist" in a certain sense. Yuzu is just a piece in a bigger puzzle that ultimately leads to perhaps something Nintendo doesn't like, because they're not actually "distributing" (though I guess that's what's in contention here if the guides are against the rules) anything illegal.

 

It's like if I made a Music CD, and someone came along and made software to play music, while yes it could be used to play stolen copies of that CD the software itself that's not it's "intended purpose" and is just a consequence of bad people doing bad things. 

[Lunar River]

9 hours ago, PenguinNexus said:

raise awareness

Classic slacktivism. Awareness does nothing, it's just like when people try to pay artists in exposure.

[wasab]

reverse engineering aint pirating 

[Zodiark1593]

Pretty glad I haven’t given Nintendo my money in a long time. Don’t even bother to pirate their games either. My last Nintendo console is the og 3DS. 

[Kisai]

On 2/28/2024 at 11:16 AM, Birblover12 said:

Didn't Nintendo already try their hand in lawsuits against emulators and lose terribly a while back?

Nope

 

In general, as long as you need the key from the device, you violate the copyright, and Japanese laws about copyright are completely insane where you can have your site/channel taken down if you even share 1/10th of an official image. Cases where US fair use and exceptions under the DMCA do not exist.

 

For all practical reasons this is one of the reasons why I say counterfeit consoles and flash copiers are piracy tools, while the legitimate ones are  actually sold with NO SOFTWARE on them. There are so many "loaded" counterfeit consoles and usb drives on auction sites and other marketplaces now that you can clearly see why Nintendo is doing this. They don't want YUZU or various other emulators that require these keys to operate to end up on these counterfeit devices and be able to play games that are still available at retail.

 

The story changes significantly when Nintendo does not, or refuses to release games they already developed on previous consoles on current consoles, nor provide away for previous publishers to do so. This steers previous publishers towards the PC, and guess what, an open source emulator is an easy to port a Switch game to the PC, just recompile the game using the OSS emulator without the key. This is how several games on Steam operate (The Disney Afternoon collection, Sega's classics that they removed, the Bubsy game) they're packaged with various emulators of various natures (the Bubsy one is basically just the SNES roms as a binary blob inside a hard coded emulator. You also have things like Square Enix's "ports" of GB, NES and SNES/GBA games where if you know where to look the game binary contains the actual console rom. You can even put in the Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger PSX games in your PC CD-ROM and the SNES game is just sitting there on the disc. Square has done this for enough games that you kinda have to eye roll when you see Nintendo not Also doing this.

 

If you've ever played any kind of "collection" series of games that was on the 8bit, 16bit or even early 32-bit consoles on the PC, it's very likely (Eg Megaman, Sonic) you were just playing the original game binary on an emulator of some sort. Not all of these ARE emulators, some of these (like the final fantasy mobile ports) use the GBA as an asset table, but THAT version of the game did it that way, where as the pixel remasters are true remakes.

 

Nintendo doesn't need to make "PC" versions of games, but they need to make sure their Nintendo games and third parties can still sell their games on their store, regardless of what console is out there, and they stubbornly refuse to do so, so these emulators just take off in the final years of the life of the console while it's still possible to dump everything.

 

[wanderingfool2]

15 hours ago, Kisai said:

Japanese laws about copyright are completely insane where you can have your site/channel taken down if you even share 1/10th of an official image. Cases where US fair use and exceptions under the DMCA do not exist.

This bit is a bit irrelevant though, as this is happening in the US, so only the US laws apply.

 

The only bit of Japanese copyright culture that might come into play is that there is the mentality that you have to pursue copyright infringements in Japan, so that might boil over here.

 

With that said though, the law itself doesn't matter...only the copyright and DMCA

 

Sony vs Connectix Corp is a good example of bios though being classified as fair use.  So the biggest thing that comes down to is the use of breaking encryption.

 

Sega v. Accolade also showed that reverse engineering, even when using copyrighted/trademarked items is still legal.

[Thaldor]

Add this to the list of things to think before pouring your hard earn money on Nintendo products.

[wasab]

There is another switch emulator 

Ryujinx - Nintendo Switch Emulator

 

both require that you own a decryption key which can only come from a legitimate ownership of a switch console. these emulators do not allow piracy per se. it is people who pirated these hardware keys in addition to pirated games that allow piracy on these emulators. Ripping off contents of a legitimate copy to consume them on another platform has been a protected consumer right for decades. this is why it is legal to rip music from like a cd onto your computer's hard drive. 

 

In short, these emulators and their developers are as guilty of piracy as Microsoft is guilty of piracy of so many of the music, games, tvs, and softwares on windows. 

[Gpusarentintimidatingtome]

Pardon my French, but FUCK OF NINTENDO!!!! Why are they so Anti-fun when they are a company founded on having fun with family and friends?!!

They just wont allow anybody to enjoy GOOD GAMES on HARDWARE THAT DOESNT SUCK!!! The people who spent so much work on Yuzu and citra just have to sit here and watch their work be wasted by Nintendont-have-fun! Nintendo is the worst of the 3 gaming consol/software companies. My list is: Xbox, Playstation, and (lower than EA now) Nintendo!! I want to go on and on about Nintendo, but i might just get sued(Nintendo!!!!!!!!!) You know whats funny is that Nintendo never discounted WiiU virtual purchases or 3ds purchaces of games when they were about to close the eshops for thoe systems? Nintendos website should say:

 

Nintendo

"The greedy company that is all about suing people who try to make enjoying switch games better by using hardware we don't! We are the people you HATE TO LOVE. Disagree with us, well ruin your fun!!"

Also I would love to hear your opinion @LinusTech!! Dont know if u can tell but im heated. Also all games i played on Yuzu, I bought from Best buy or Amazon in physical copies. I have a whole shelf to prove that i own all these overpriced games that run on crappy hardware. Also keep on doing what u do Linus, You are awespme.