Windows 11 24H2 goes from “unsupported” to “unbootable” on some older CPUs

[starsmine]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

That is very much not a Zen+ or a Ryzen 2500U issue though.

 

But again your device with a Ryzen 2500U would have been fully supported by everyone involved for at least 5 years and last I checked those with the newest Zen+ based products will be in their 7th year of CPU release so hardly much to complain about. Keep using the device if you really want, it's not going to stop working. Consider getting something new if you care about security updates though.

2500U is zen 1, not zen+.

 

mobile 2000 are all zen1.

zen+ is supported on windows 11. It’s that disparity that is really weird as the differences are so small

[jagdtigger]

3 hours ago, StDragon said:

You can't install Windows 98 on newer CPUs without some interesting hacks and work-arounds.

I meant their arbitrary limit(which you could safely ignore), but i have a hunch this new instruction gets used for the same end not out of practical need........

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, starsmine said:

2500U is zen 1, not zen+.

 

mobile 2000 are all zen1.

zen+ is supported on windows 11. It’s that disparity that is really weird as the differences are so small

Ah I thought Zen+ products were also not supported. Zen+ must have gotten TPM 2.0 since that is why Zen wasn't supported.

[Kisai]

9 hours ago, manikyath said:

this is one of those things where this instruction has been there for a long ass time but not forever, there was a case where using it would optimize something, so the decision had to be made.

 

something very similar to this happened in windows 10 on some specific build as well, iirc it took some early P4 chips out the running.

No Pentium 4's are 64-bit except the last 2006 (Cedar Mill) models and some OEM SKU's before it. You have to be pretty desperate to run 64-bit windows on those, as those are still XP era platforms.

 

As for the topic. Nothing of value was lost.

 

This, coming from someone who ran Windows 95 on 386's because I could. Not because it was a good idea. Sometimes you just want to see IF it works, not actually use it for anything practical. I had a fully loaded AMD 386DX40 with every expansion card slot filled and it was just absolutely pokey, but hilarious that it still booted when it hit the expanded memory board.

 

My point is that sometimes you can try to hypermile hardware beyond reason, and running Windows 11 on anything older than 2016/DDR4 hardware should just not be done. You can but you won't like the experience.

 

2016 hardware is still Windows 7 hardware.

[starsmine]

20 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Ah I thought Zen+ products were also not supported. Zen+ must have gotten TPM 2.0 since that is why Zen wasn't supported.

they both have TPM 2.0

If there is some other reason why Zen 1 isnt supported its much more esoteric. 

EDIT: Turns out the issue is MBEC
Zen+ has it, Zen does not, I think... There is alot of conflicting information on this one. 

[Vode]

9 hours ago, Lunar River said:

 

anyone actually upset at 2008 cpus no longer being usable, you might want to recheck the calendar to see what year you're in

Right. How many people were upset Windows XP didn‘t run on their 80486DX

[Monkey Dust]

11 hours ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

I am more worried windows 10 has a pretty high marketshare, and whats gonna happen in Oct 2025 when support drops. Thats gonna leave a lot of un support win 10 system in the wild if something doesn't change.

I think W10's support will be extended, at least for security updates. Windows is slowly losing market share. I doubt MS will want users, especially business users, exploring other options. IIRC XP had its EOL date pushed back due to poor uptake of its replacement, and possibly 7 did too?

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

I meant their arbitrary limit(which you could safely ignore), but i have a hunch this new instruction gets used for the same end not out of practical need........

A lot of instructions are more useful than a lot of people tend to believe, when it causes hardware support to be lost and default to "it's dumb and useless".

 

https://vaibhavsagar.com/blog/2019/09/08/popcount/ (writen before OMG Windows 11!)

 

This instruction is useful for Cryptography and AI/ML to name two that are probably most relevant for Windows 11 (AI/ML for Copilot specifically).

 

Also

Quote

Compiler Optimisations
popcount has become so pervasive that both GCC and Clang will detect an implementation of popcount and replace it with the built-in instruction. Imagine Clippy going “I see you are trying to implement popcount, let me go ahead and fix that for you”! The relevant LLVM code is here. Daniel Lemire points to this as an example of the surprising cleverness of modern compilers.

 

So it really is not uncommon at all.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, starsmine said:

they both have TPM 2.0

If there is some other reason why Zen 1 isnt supported its much more esoteric. 

EDIT: Turns out the issue is MBEC
Zen+ has it, Zen does not, I think... There is alot of conflicting information on this one. 

Zen 1 is TPM 1.2

[RejZoR]

9 hours ago, leadeater said:

If Rufus and a tick box is too difficult to do a fresh install then that is totally a you problem. Installing Windows 11 on a Ryzen 2500U is trivially easy.

 

Yes, it literally is. Why do I need to go through 15 god damn unnecessary hoops when it could just, I don't know, install like it used to? Show me a popup message my system isn't officially supported and let me know any problems are on me and just carry on. Is that really so hard? Instead whole internet is full of dumb unnecessary (and mostly outdated) hacks just to install the f**king thing.

[Stahlmann]

Microsoft: Windows 11 requires modern hardware.

People: Screw you, Microsoft! I don't want Windows 11 anyway!

Also People: I want Windows 11.

Windows 11: *Doesn't work on their 17 year old hardware*

People:

Spoiler

[leadeater]

12 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Yes, it literally is. Why do I need to go through 15 god damn unnecessary hoops when it could just, I don't know, install like it used to? Show me a popup message my system isn't officially supported and let me know any problems are on me and just carry on. Is that really so hard? Instead whole internet is full of dumb unnecessary (and mostly outdated) hacks just to install the f**king thing.

15? And they are all literally the same, set this reg key, Rufus does it for you so it's absolutely not 15 steps.

 

Also Rufus is pretty well the best tool to create USB boot media to install Windows in the first place.

 

And the whole point is to not let you do an in-place upgrade, that is why you can't go I don't care move on then toast your system. Microsoft can't account for your system OEM/ODM or motherboard maker to actually be supporting Windows 11 so not letting you is better for you, even if you are "knowledgeable". She'll be right, I'll figure it out is the exact sentiment right before it's not "right" and it all goes to toss.

 

Requiring you to do a fresh install or set the regkey for upgrade is to give you the onus and prompt to look in to if it is actually a good idea or not.

[RejZoR]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

15? And they are all literally the same, set this reg key, Rufus does it for you so it's absolutely not 15 steps.

 

Also Rufus is pretty well the best tool to create USB boot media to install Windows in the first place.

 

And the whole point is to not let you do an in-place upgrade, that is why you can't go I don't care move on then toast your system. Microsoft can't account for your system OEM/ODM or motherboard maker to actually be supporting Windows 11 so not letting you is better for you, even if you are "knowledgeable". She'll be right, I'll figure it out is the exact sentiment right before it's not "right" and it all goes to toss.

 

Requiring you to do a fresh install is to give you the onus and prompt to look in to if it is actually a good idea or not.

You guys have a concept of exaggeration? That's the number 15. It amplifies the fact any extra step is unnecessary. Because Windows installer totally can't tell if Windows installation exists and simply, I don't know, not offer an upgrade option then? I always end up doing a clean install on drastic Windows updates for the sake of avoiding dumb problems that almost always happen with big updates.

[Blademaster91]

17 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Yes, it literally is. Why do I need to go through 15 god damn unnecessary hoops when it could just, I don't know, install like it used to? Show me a popup message my system isn't officially supported and let me know any problems are on me and just carry on. Is that really so hard? Instead whole internet is full of dumb unnecessary (and mostly outdated) hacks just to install the f**king thing.

Because Microsoft would rather people replace their system instead of being able to do the upgrade on otherwise decently capable hardware. I'm not surprised people are defending MS for this, I remember plenty of people did when MS made the dumb decision of requiring newer hardware even though Ryzen 2xxx and Intel 7th gen are fine with running windows 11.

The average user doesn't know what rufus is so Microsoft is simply unnecessarily forcing people to throw away a system when MS could push OEM's to release updates or list drivers compatible with windows 11.

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

You guys have a concept of exaggeration? That's the number 15.

Dumb arguments don't make your point better.

 

Edit:

Also FYI you can do upgrade from USB install media, you can do fresh or upgrade. Clearly as I have alluded to already this is operator error not Windows.

[RejZoR]

1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

Because Microsoft would rather people replace their system instead of being able to do the upgrade on otherwise decently capable hardware. I'm not surprised people are defending MS for this, I remember plenty of people did when MS made the dumb decision of requiring newer hardware even though Ryzen 2xxx and Intel 7th gen are fine with running windows 11.

The average user doesn't know what rufus is so Microsoft is simply unnecessarily forcing people to throw away a system when MS could push OEM's to release updates or list drivers compatible with windows 11.

Because not offering "Upgrade" as option in the installer is apparently so freaking difficult... It's literally ONE single IF statement. IF CPU NOT COMPATIBLE THEN NO UPGRADE BUTTON. And it would just show "Install" button that replaces entire system or lets you manually format the system partition. No dumb fiddling with Rufus specifically or whatever.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, RejZoR said:

Because not offering "Upgrade" as option in the installer is apparently so freaking difficult... It's literally ONE single IF statement. IF CPU NOT COMPATIBLE THEN NO UPGRADE BUTTON. And it would just show "Install" button that replaces entire system or lets you manually format the system partition. No dumb fiddling with Rufus specifically or whatever.

You can't clean install either without setting the reg key in the install media to ignore unsupported CPU/hardware.

[RejZoR]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Dumb arguments don't make your point better.

 

Also FYI you can do upgrade from USB install media, you can do fresh or upgrade. Clearly as I have alluded to already this is operator error not Windows.

That wasn't an argument, it was conversational exaggeration. Just like we say "something is 100x harder to do" doesn't mean it's actually 100x more difficult, it's an exaggeration to show a point something is stupid. And this is stupid.

 

It's funny how I came from argument about dumb crap in Linux because people would rather spend 50 pages arguing about whether some complaint is valid or not and would rather defend the damn broken thing instead of say "you're right" and demand better. I see Windows has entered the exact same realm. People would rather defend all its idiocies and broken shit than demand better from Microsoft. No wonder Windows 11 is such a mess and has garbage adoption even though it was thrown at everyone as "free" upgrade. And people still don't want it.

[RejZoR]

Just now, leadeater said:

You can't clean install either without setting the reg key in the install media to ignore unsupported CPU/hardware.

Oh my god, that was literally my f**king point. What am I speaking Chinese and I'm not aware of it? test test, nope no Chinese characters. Daf**k?

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

hat wasn't an argument, it was conversational exaggeration.

Which is a proposition argument. You are trying to support your argument aka your opinion about something with "a dumb argument" which does not help you or make your point more convincing. It in fact makes you look worse not better.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Oh my god, that was literally my f**king point. What am I speaking Chinese and I'm not aware of it? test test, nope no Chinese characters. Daf**k?

 

11 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Because not offering "Upgrade" as option in the installer is apparently so freaking difficult...

 

No it was not your point, you're off complaining about hiding upgrade options when the check is an outright not at all. If you set the ignore you can BOTH upgrade or fresh install.

 

I'm sorry but this is operator error, this actually seems to be too difficult for you so my suggestion is stop trying to install Windows 11 on unsupported hardware, you are not capable of doing it and you are the reason it is prevented. You should be thanking Microsoft for preventing you from creating a problem with your device.

[RejZoR]

Yeah, whatever. I'll just stick with Linux then. Goodbye.

[Alex Atkin UK]

19 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Yes, it literally is. Why do I need to go through 15 god damn unnecessary hoops when it could just, I don't know, install like it used to?

For the very reason of this article - they may remove support in future updates because they want to optimise the OS with instructions it does not support.

 

I kept telling people not to do it because this would happen, nobody listened.  It was blatantly obvious Microsoft wanted to be able to use new instructions in CPUs without having the hassle of having fallbacks.

 

You will notice Alan Wake 2 also had a similar issue in development, where they wanted a fallback for Mesh Shaders but realised it was way too much work so released the game with it officially not supported to run on cards without it, but the incomplete fallback still included.

 

There comes a point where using new instructions and having fallback solutions where its not available, just becomes completely impractical as the support and development costs are huge.

[starsmine]

8 hours ago, leadeater said:

Zen 1 is TPM 1.2

with 100% confidence, my 2500U is using TPM 2.0

TPM for Zen 1 is not the issue, its the same as Zen+

[RejZoR]

10 hours ago, leadeater said:

Ah I thought Zen+ products were also not supported. Zen+ must have gotten TPM 2.0 since that is why Zen wasn't supported.

It has been like 2 years since I kicked Windows 11 and replaced it with Linux on that system, but I'm fairly certain that TPM 2.0 was detected and supported with Ryzen 2500U. It was some other arbitrary BS that Microsoft decided upon to not support it.