China's chip-making on display as Huawei produces new phone with homebuilt 7nm chip

[Delicieuxz]

Congrats to China, whose Huawei has just released a new phone built using SMIC's own 7nm chip. China is said to also be able to make 5nm chips, but with less efficient yields at this time. The new phone was launched while US Secretary of Commerce, Gina Raimondo, was visiting China.

 

In addition to reducing tech hegemony, gatekeeping, and abuse of power (ASML's CEO basically accused the US of using sanctions on China to steal market share from European firms), China's growth in chip-making should bring innovation and healthy competition, and could push-down chip prices around the world.

 

Huawei Teardown Shows Chip Breakthrough in Blow to US Sanctions - "The company’s Mate 60 Pro is powered by SMIC’s 7nm chips, according to analysis that TechInsights conducted for Bloomberg News"

 

Huawei's New Mystery 7nm Chip from Chinese Fab Defies US Sanctions

Quote

Huawei's Kirin 9000S system-on-chip that powers Huawei's new Mate 60 Pro smartphone is rumored to be made by China-based SMIC using its 2nd generation 7nm-class fabrication process and stacking, according to TechInsights, a significant semiconductor research firm, as per a report by the South China Morning Post. In addition, the SoC reportedly packs CPU and GPU featuring microarchitectures developed in-house. Meanwhile, all the information about the Kirin 9000S is strictly unofficial.
...
SMIC has never confirmed that it produces chips on 7-and 5 nm-class nodes. Yet, there are independent proofs from TechInsights that SMIC produced MinerVa Semiconductor Bitcoin mining ASICs on its 7nm-class N+1 technology.

 

Meanwhile, SMIC's Twinscan NXT:2000i deep ultraviolet (DUV) lithography scanners can make chips on 7nm and 5nm technologies, so that the company may have developed a 5nm-class fabrication process. There is an essential detail, though: to print outstanding features on a 5nm-class node or a refined 7nm-class process technology, SMIC has to heavily use multi-patterning, which is an expensive technology that affects yields and costs, so the economic efficiency of SMIC's 5nm-class technology is likely considerably lower than that of market leaders Intel, TSMC, and Samsung Foundry.

 

New phone sparks worry [note: mostly just in the US govt] China has found a way around U.S. tech limits

Quote

Shih said that regardless if SMIC can reach the cutting edge, the foundry will certainly be able to produce older-generation chips at scale, possibly pushing down prices of chips worldwide. “We will see price pressure and commoditization pressure,” he said.

 

U.S. companies like Intel and Qualcomm have already lost significant sales in China, the world’s second-largest economy, due to the U.S. sanctions, crimping their research and development budgets. U.S. executives fear this could weigh on their long-term strength, in an industry where only a few of the strongest, fastest companies tend to survive.

 

“It starts a downward spiral in ability, to not be competitive with the rest of the world,” said an industry executive, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject.

 

Since the U.S. chip sanctions began, Beijing has flexed what muscles it can to prevent more of the global chip industry from falling under Washington’s sway. For instance, Intel recently announced it will have to pay $353 million in termination fees to Israel’s Tower Semiconductor after failing to acquire Chinese regulatory approval for the acquisition.

Quote

Huawei Technologies Co.’s new smartphone, the Mate 60 Pro, represents a new high-water mark in China’s technological capabilities, with an advanced chip inside that was both designed and manufactured in China despite onerous U.S. export controls intended to prevent China from making this technical jump. Those sanctions were first imposed by the Trump administration and continued under President Biden.

The timing of the phone announcement on Monday, while Raimondo was in Beijing, appeared to be a show of defiance. Chinese state media declared it showed the U.S. that trade war was a “failure.”

 

Paul Triolo, the technology policy lead at the Washington-based business consulting firm Albright Stonebridge Group, called the new phone “a major blow to all of Huawei’s former technology suppliers, mostly U.S. companies.”

 

“The major geopolitical significance,” he said, “has been to show that it is possible to completely design [without] U.S. technology and still produce a product that may not be quite as good as cutting edge Western models, but is still quite capable.”

 

Also: Huawei is building a collection of secret semiconductor-fabrication facilities across China

 

 

Last summer, it was reported that China had achieved a breakthrough in its chip-making and was producing its own 7nm chips, and moving onto 5nm, after 7nm chips made by SMIC were discovered in Bitcoin miners.

 

 

[emosun]

no doubt using their own designs that weren't blatantly stolen with zero regard for existing patents as china is famous for of course.

[igormp]

Nice to see a non-US option, more competition is always good and helps to break down US' hegemony.

 

Let's see if their node is actually as good as other 7nm options, and if their pricing will be competitive and open to clients world-wide.

[Delicieuxz]

24 minutes ago, igormp said:

Nice to see a non-US option, more competition is always good and helps to break down US' hegemony.

 

Let's see if their node is actually as good as other 7nm options, and if their pricing will be competitive and open to clients world-wide.

Though needing verification, a line in the WaPo article (5th link in the OP) says:

 

"One person told The Washington Post that the Mate 60 Pro has a 5G chip. Speed tests posted by early buyers of the phone online suggest its performance is similar to top-of-the-line 5G phones."

[ThousandBlade]

First gen products will probably be dog shit.

What's really interesting would be the next generation and the generation after.

This is a great thing overall.

It'll open up so much options for people aren't on the friendliest terms with the US.

[igormp]

2 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

Though needing verification, a line in the WaPo article (5th link in the OP) says:

 

"One person told The Washington Post that the Mate 60 Pro has a 5G chip. Speed tests posted by early buyers of the phone online suggest its performance is similar to top-of-the-line 5G phones."

I'm not sure how well one can estimate how good the node is from that. I personally would like to see benchmarks, achievable clock speeds and power consumption both at load and idle to have a better grasp of this.

[Dabombinable]

Considering all of the chip relabelling that has gone on in past "advancements", yeah this can't be using a 7nm chip:
Huawei Mate 60 Pro enters Geekbench with Kirin 9000s, performs above Kirin 990 - Huawei Central

Seriously, if it really was a 7nm CPU, Huawei themselves would definitely be hyping the crap out of it.

[StDragon]

For domestic consumption. I would never own a device that would spy on me on behalf of a nation state.

 

The only relevant news here is domestic 7nm fabrication. How soon will that get scaled up for AI hardware production? That's what I really want to know.

[ThousandBlade]

3 minutes ago, StDragon said:

For domestic consumption. I would never own a device that would spy on me on behalf of a nation state.

 

The only relevant news here is domestic 7nm fabrication. How soon will that get scaled up for AI hardware production? That's what I really want to know.

What device doesn't spy on you these days? 

Don't be fooled into thinking Apple, Facebook, Google, Amazon, or the NSA is any better than CCP.

 

Build your own ROMs or firmware for what ever device you're using if you're that paranoid.

[williamcll]

It seems the lower performance is caused more from a very reserved power draw (probably due to limited yields for higher clocked processors) since this doesn't even touch 3Ghz unlike Apple As, Snapdragon 8Gs, MediaTek 9000s. Hope they come up with a SBC version like what the 990 had back then.

 

If they want to cut down suspicion for telemetry abuse they could swap to OpenHarmony instead, which has even less AOSP code inside.

[igormp]

Thei node seems to be actually reasonable. Doesn't really outperform the competition, but has nice power consumption and it seems that most of the issues stem from the actual CPU/GPU architectures rather than the node:

Now let's see if we'll have some western benchmarks to make it more clear.

[LAwLz]

41 minutes ago, igormp said:

it seems that most of the issues stem from the actual CPU/GPU architectures rather than the node:

I was very surprised to learn that the big and medium cores are Huawei's own custom architectures, and so is the GPU.

 

That alone would have been big news, even if it was manufactured by TSMC.

 

 

 

4x Little cores at 1,53GHz. These are standard Cortex A510 cores.

3x Medium cores at 2,15GHz, support SMT/Hyperthreading.

1x Big core at 2,62GHz, supports SMT/Hyperthreading.

 

The medium and big cores are using some "Taishan" architecture. Not sure if the medium cores and the big core have the same architecture and config. The die shot I saw showed the big core as being a lot bigger. That might just be extra cache decided to that core though, and not a CPU architecture difference.

 

The GPU is called Maleoon-910. It has 4 execution units (1024 ALUs) and runs at 750MHz.

[igormp]

13 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I was very surprised to learn that the big and medium cores are Huawei's own custom architectures, and so is the GPU.

 

That alone would have been big news, even if it was manufactured by TSMC.

 

 

 

4x Little cores at 1,53GHz. These are standard Cortex A510 cores.

3x Medium cores at 2,15GHz, support SMT/Hyperthreading.

1x Big core at 2,62GHz, supports SMT/Hyperthreading.

 

The medium and big cores are using some "Taishan" architecture. Not sure if the medium cores and the big core have the same architecture and config. The die shot I saw showed the big core as being a lot bigger. That might just be extra cache decided to that core though, and not a CPU architecture difference.

 

The GPU is called Maleoon-910. It has 4 execution units (1024 ALUs) and runs at 750MHz.

The idea of SMT on a mobile ARM CPU is also pretty interesting. Anyhow, given how different that CPU is, we can only use the small cores to compare the node itself to others, while the medium and big ones (and also the GPU) have way too much variables in place.

[Delicieuxz]

 

Qualcomm To Lose Up To 60 Million Chipset Orders in 2024 Thanks To Huawei’s Kirin 9000S, Potential Profit Loss In The Billions

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The U.S. sanctions may have forced Huawei into a corner as far as its smartphone business is concerned, but the Chinese firm has remained relentless and managed to circumvent those trade limitations with the Kirin 9000S, its first custom SoC that materialized after a brief hiatus and is found in the newly released Mate 60 Pro 5G.

 

While it is not the most capable chipset when doing performance and efficiency comparisons, its inception signifies Huawei’s intentions of not relying on the likes of Qualcomm in the future, who is said to potentially lose out on billions due to this new silicon, according to one analyst.

Huawei purchased between 40-42 million chipsets from Qualcomm in 2023, the Kirin 9000S will result in massive financial losses for the SoC maker

 

 

China Reportedly Bans iPhones And Other Foreign Devices Among Government Officials

Quote

China has banned government officials from using Apple’s iPhone and other foreign-branded devices for work, the Wall Street Journal reported on Wednesday, mirroring similar technology bans against Chinese technology in the West as Beijing cracks down on information leaks and domestic firms push to develop high tech industries that rival U.S. heavyweights.

 

 

[ThousandBlade]

This all looks great

But I'll believe it when I have it in my hands.

 

I'm just hoping this isn't another 87.53% type of bullshit.

[Forbidden Wafer]

Did someone get surprised with that result?
They do good products, they have the market, they are the segment leaders, they have lower prices so they can increase them to beef up their margins.
Now they don't rely on global supply chains...

[Taf the Ghost]

3 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

 

Qualcomm To Lose Up To 60 Million Chipset Orders in 2024 Thanks To Huawei’s Kirin 9000S, Potential Profit Loss In The Billions

 

 

China Reportedly Bans iPhones And Other Foreign Devices Among Government Officials

 

 

Huawei could very easily face import bans on their chips. While all Chinese companies are, by their own laws, required to turn over everything to the State upon demand, Huawei's integration with State Intelligence seems to be the primary reason behind their explosion from a bunch of Western Tech Markets. That same reason is likely to follow the new SoC. 

 

As for that graph, eh, I would highly question everything about that. China has driven out a huge amount of foreign workers in the last 3 years and they're facing enough expatriation to further kick in capital controls and now start attacking the service companies that help manage it.  It's possible that something like that amount of, mostly debt, money is earmarked for "R&D". But that'll be about 20% to R&D and 80% to graft.

 

Also, Tesla's are banned in most any government or military area in China. One problem with all of the cameras on cars is that data can be sent home. Expect that to be a new domain of restrictions, in a lot of places & in general, in the future.

[Delicieuxz]

TechInsights confirms Huawei's SoC made by SMIC N+2 7nm node

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TechInsights' latest report pointed out that its lab in Ottawa, Canada, has confirmed that the SoC of Huawei's Mate 60 Pro smartphone was manufactured by SMIC's N+2 7nm process node.

...

According to Pacific Technology, a Chinese media outlet, 90% of the components and parts in Mate 60 Pro were made by at least 46 Chinese manufacturers. TechInsights also noted that if SMIC's N+2, 7nm node (with integrated SRAM cache) and 5G RF front-end chipsets are released, it would indeed mark a major milestone and breakthrough for China's semiconductor industry, a disruptive move on the global stage.

 

 

I don't know about this first Twitter post  - it sounds like Longying 1 has been around since 2021. But maybe it's just entered mass production [2] [3]. The reply to it with comments about China-made EUV is interesting, though unverified.

 

Google's translation:

 

 

 

[thorhammerz]

On 9/7/2023 at 1:47 AM, Taf the Ghost said:

Huawei could very easily face import bans on their chips. While all Chinese companies are, by their own laws, required to turn over everything to the State upon demand, Huawei's integration with State Intelligence seems to be the primary reason behind their explosion from a bunch of Western Tech Markets. That same reason is likely to follow the new SoC. 

 

...

 

China has driven out a huge amount of foreign workers in the last 3 years 

Does China (not inclusive of anything integrated with TSMC/GF) actually have the technical expertise to recreate (and manage the production & usage thereof) the lithographic equipment needed to make say, the equivalent of Intel's 14nm process (that "OG" 14nm was used for Broadwell/Haswell)?

 

Spoiler

Since everything else from this thread are quotes from social media mouthpieces (and the claims thereof).

 

[Taf the Ghost]

28 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

Does China (not inclusive of anything integrated with TSMC/GF) actually have the technical expertise to recreate (and manage the production & usage thereof) the lithographic equipment needed to make say, the equivalent of Intel's 14nm process (that "OG" 14nm was used for Broadwell/Haswell)?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Since everything else from this thread are quotes from social media mouthpieces (and the claims thereof).

 

China has actually been pumping billions (USD/EUR equivalent) into a domestic chip production at current gen nodes. Several of the ventures have failed extremely badly. I don't know if Huawei's nodes are using any EUV layers and I don't know if ASML has ever been able to deliver any into Mainland China. Of note, TSMC has Fabs in Mainland China and has for years.

 

It's really only a question if they can get access to certain necessary machines that are basically only produced by 1-2 companies. China's Advanced Optics Production would be the biggest hinderance there, for them. 

 

For the people with the skills necessary, they likely have enough. They could hire mainlanders working for TSMC or other companies. And, if they're missing R&D, see my note about Huawei's integration with Chinese State Intelligence.  They can get it. What they likely can't get is the advanced optics or the lack of corruption to stay at leading edge technology.

 

As for Management side, unknown. Some Chinese companies are actually well managed. Most are "Mandarin" managed. There's a reason no one trusts their activities.

[Ydfhlx]

On 9/4/2023 at 7:36 PM, Delicieuxz said:

In addition to reducing tech hegemony, gatekeeping, and abuse of power (ASML's CEO basically accused the US of using sanctions on China to steal market share from European firms), China's growth in chip-making should bring innovation and healthy competition, and could push-down chip prices around the world.

Maybe I'm nitpicky, but I'd prefer if you kept your opinion separate from the facts of the news.

[jagdtigger]

On 9/4/2023 at 5:51 PM, emosun said:

no doubt using their own designs that weren't blatantly stolen with zero regard for existing patents as china is famous for of course.

TBH i dont mind it in this case, the USA has way too much power over way too many things......

[Delicieuxz]

On 9/10/2023 at 9:41 AM, Ydfhlx said:

Maybe I'm nitpicky, but I'd prefer if you kept your opinion separate from the facts of the news.

Definitely nitpicky and unreasonable, given that the forum rules require a news poster include their opinion of why they think a news topic they post matters. Besides, my opinion is a good one.

 

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Edited September 17, 2023 by SansVarnic

[Obioban]

<removed by staff>

 

Regarding this chip in particular, my understanding is that it’s basically a recycled crypto chip design, made with a lithography tech that can’t go under 7nm— so I wouldn’t expect it to perform as well as other 7nm chips (outside of tasks similar to crypto) or be followed up with a 5nm chip. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by SansVarnic
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[Delicieuxz]

4 hours ago, Obioban said:

<removed by staff>
 

Regarding this chip in particular, my understanding is that it’s basically a recycled crypto chip design, made with a lithography tech that can’t go under 7nm— so I wouldn’t expect it to perform as well as other 7nm chips (outside of tasks similar to crypto) or be followed up with a 5nm chip. 

<removed by staff>

 

Huawei's Kirin 9000S chip is said to be good in performance and efficiency, have excellent 5G, and the Mate 60 Pro has a camera that seems to be comparable to those on top-end phones. Satellite calling is a bonus.

 

As is covered in this thread, Huawei is said to be working on a 5nm-and-lower process based on China-made EUV, as opposed to China's DUV process that made the Kirin 9000S. The rumour is that it could see commercial use next year.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by SansVarnic
Removed content.