Nintendo to use denuvo in future titles

[Spindel]

15 hours ago, Donut417 said:

I belong to a Steam Deck group on Facebook. There's a hell of a lot more than 3 people doing it. Half the posts are about emulation  piracy.

Corrected your post for you.

[jagdtigger]

31 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Corrected your post for you.

More like falsified it, comparing emulation to piracy is like comparing white to black......

[Kisai]

12 hours ago, StDragon said:

Or, you know, Nintendo could just publish their games for the PC too.

Why they're hellbent on excluding themselves from other markets is beyond me. Some people aren't interested in buying a console.

Cause of hardware gimmicks.

 

The switch doesn't really have a hardware gimmick, a game controller with a touch screen, that's basically an ipad and a xbox one controller.

 

Like the hardest consoles to emulate in practice are the DS/DSi/3DS and the Wii (not the WiiU) This is because the DS series has multiple simultaneous inputs (camera, microphone, touch, buttons, and IMU) where as the Wii has a IMU in the game controller as well as a camera to pick up the orientation relative to the television, and also has a speaker in it. 

 

Neither of these really prevent the consoles from being emulated, but the user experience on the PC is always going to be poor without the native controller, and the without the IR source, the Wii controllers IMU don't completely work, you need to emulate that with the mouse.

 

The touch screens can be emulated with the mouse, but a mouse only emulates one touch, where as you need to be able to emulate multi-touch. 

 

Now, if Nintendo cared, they could just port their own games to the PC and remove the gimmick. Because most games that use the gimmicks, barely use them effectively. The problem always comes back to developers not really caring about these extra gimmicks.

 

Now, what do I expect Denuvo to accomplish? If it's being used for what I expect, it will probably be used to keep people from modding "randomizers" and "Play as Linkle" into the LoZ games, since I've seen people do both of these and stream it.

 

 

[Thaldor]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

The switch doesn't really have a hardware gimmick, a game controller with a touch screen, that's basically an ipad and a xbox one controller.

It's either iPad or controller. Remember you cannot use the touch screen while Switch is in the dock. And this is actually why WiiU is harder to emulate than Switch because every Switch game must be playable with only the controllers which aren't that developed, the motion detection on them is pretty much never used outside couple more tech demo -like games and what is left is just basicly (IMO) bad PS/Xbox controller. With WiiU at least you needed to emulate the tablet controller to some level because games actually required it (like the original BotW with the one or maybe two shrines using the motion sensors), this meant either going the hard way and getting PS4 controller and setting that up to act as the tablet with its motion sensors and touchpad or just simply forget the motion sensors and slap the tablet screen on separated window.

 

In general I cannot even fathom why Nintendo would include Denuvo, like that is the worst shotgun to the own kneecap I have seen in a long time. Of course there's the emulation part but that doesn't do much unless Nintendo is going to do some outrageous firmware updating on Switch that would change the whole platform even on the earliest consoles because otherwise, what would the Denuvo do? Look at your HW info and decide whether or not you are running authentic Switch? Call home in airplane mode?
Piracy fighting is a reason but damn Nintendo is late. Like did they need to find a time machine and go ask the founder if he would like them to fight piracy? Or did they first need to pass couple laws in Japan to notice that they also can fight piracy with copyprotections?

Eitherway the big shot to the kneecap will be the Switch. It's far from powerful machine and Denuvo has performance costs which will be out of the processing power of the console and Switch has very little to spare. And pretty much unless Nintendo is going to make friends with Apple, they will continue to be the only ARM-based console manufacturer and third party developers already are pissing the ports completely because "it's not worth it", add in the performance hit from Denuvo and the MGS collection will soon seem like well made port.

[kirashi]

21 hours ago, Lightning said:

My thoughts

The real question is, would this have any affect in combating piracy anyway? Since denuvo will get cracked eventually. 

 

Piracy is and always will be a service delivery problem.

 

https://www.gamesradar.com/gabe-newell-piracy-issue-service-not-price/

Quote

“One thing that we have learned is that piracy is not a pricing issue. It’s a service issue,” explained Newell during his time on stage at the Washington Technology Industry Association's (WTIA) Tech NW conference. “The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work. It’s by giving those people a service that’s better than what they’re receiving from the pirates.”

https://www.escapistmagazine.com/valves-gabe-newell-says-piracy-is-a-service-problem/

Quote

“We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem,” he said. “If a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate’s service is more valuable.”

 

Don't get me wrong; I want to support the media and games I enjoy. However, if people cannot AFFORDABLY consume said content WHENEVER, WHEREVER, and HOWEVER they want, people WILL find a way to enjoy the content through unofficial back channels.

 

We're already seeing a resurgence of people returning to the high seas because every production company wants a piece of the streaming video pie. The copyright industry must move forward from the 1980's era it's stuck in, but I'm not holding my breath.

[mMontana]

1 minute ago, kirashi said:

The copyright industry must move forward from the 1980's era it seems stuck in

Ask to Disney and their... pervasive insistence to defend assets and deprive customers from rights.

[SteveGrabowski0]

21 hours ago, Lightning said:

Since denuvo will get cracked eventually. 

It's a huge game of whack a mole that Denuvo is winning bigtime as there is only one person/group in the world cracking it right now: namely, Empress. Every other former cracking group from 3dm to Skidrow to RELOADED to CODEX to Conspir4cy to Baldman etc is retired. Probably a lot of them working for Denuvo now. Nintendo emulation is so big though I wonder if this is going to inspire new hackers to get involved with cracking Denuvo. Maybe Denuvo is flying too close to the sun with enshittification of Nintendo games.

[Kisai]

54 minutes ago, kirashi said:

Don't get me wrong; I want to support the media and games I enjoy. However, if people cannot AFFORDABLY consume said content WHENEVER, WHEREVER, and HOWEVER they want, people WILL find a way to enjoy the content through unofficial back channels.

This has always been the case, right or wrong. Part of that is always going to be how people can not disconnect the value of the media from the value of the product on the media.

 

People see a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM, see a blank for $2.00 and go "why am I paying $200 for X thing? Why don't I copy yours?"

 

54 minutes ago, kirashi said:

We're already seeing a resurgence of people returning to the high seas because every production company wants a piece of the streaming video pie. The copyright industry must move forward from the 1980's era it's stuck in, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

1980's? Pfft.

 

Everyone is in for a reckoning because of copyright laws.

 

So you know how AI is hot right now? Well, if you thought straight up copyright infringement was bad, wait till everyone decides that if the movie and music industry embraces AI, then they should have no problem using the very same AI to produce "parody" covers of the very same media.

 

We are already seeing this with still images, music and text. The only reason we haven't seen it in video and video games is that current AI technology lacks the ability to produce a cohesive visual image across multiple time stamps without having a consistent input. So if your consistent input is "Star Wars IV" and your AI is "Wes Anderson" all that it's gonna do is apply that pastel color palette over the existing film. It will not re-edit it, it will not re-dub it (that's something else that CAN be done right now,) and the result will be no different than a music cover. It's the same lyrics and music, but the singer is better/worse than the original.

 

 A video game is in an even worse position, because you can often decompile and strip the assets out of the original game, run that stuff through an AI upscaler/style-transfer and end up with a NEW version of the game with the original game mechanics intact. We have seen some "remasters" done this way, and they haven't been particularly good when done by simply upscaling textures.

 

Then again, DOTA and the entire MOBA genre would not have existed, and likewise other total conversions of other game engines would not exist if today's attitude toward IP was present 20 years ago.

 

Copyright as it exists today is going to be upset by companies wanting to use it to cut the creator out of the process, and in the process cutting themselves out of the process as their own content gets laundered through it instead.

 

 

[SteveGrabowski0]

11 minutes ago, Master Link said:

I don't think there has been one Denuvo "equipped" game that hasn't had Denuvo fully removed from it

Off the top of my head:

• Persona 5 Royal
• Persona 3 Portable
• Like a Dragon Ishin
• Lost Judgment
• Dead Island 2
• Dead Space Remake
• The Callisto Protocol
• Street Fighter 6
• Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne
• Tiny Tina's Wonderlands
• Tony Hawk Pro Skater 1 & 2

And almost no game has Denuvo removed unless the publisher decides to. Any cracked Denuvo game is just bypassed.

[Donut417]

5 hours ago, Spindel said:

Corrected your post for you.

Not all emulation is piracy. In most cases it only becomes piracy depending on where you get roms. In some countries copyright protections a very thin. 

 

 

[ravenshrike]

41 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

Lost Judgment

Judgement was cracked a week ago, presumably Lost Judgement will be coming shortly.

[Kisai]

32 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Not all emulation is piracy. In most cases it only becomes piracy depending on where you get roms. In some countries copyright protections a very thin. 

 

 

Correct, the only non-piracy emulation is when the emulator is included BY the developer. Something that's been done since the 90's. Ever since the PS1/GameCube that's no longer been easily possible and the developer has to actually port the game so they don't include Nintendo/Playstation intellectual property. But then again, games have been written in C++ since the PS1/GC/GBA era and are much easier to port if the developer wants to. There is just a lot of inertia to it, hence unlicensed emulators that can't play the original media, only pirate copies.

 

It can't be stated enough that no matter how good a GC/Wii/WiiU/Switch/GBA/DS/DSi/3DS emulator is, there has never been a legal way to get those games onto the computer, and no, no end user ever does that. All the pirate copies out there are put out there by piracy groups to one-up each other, and the counterfeiters take advantage of that and make physical copies in China and Korea since Nintendo has practically no presence there (The Wii U never got a release there.) Those counterfeit copies then leak out into the western world and people selling/buying them ultimately end up paying the price for the piracy.

 

There are many Japanese games that never make it to the US because the pirates leaked it first. This is why big AAA type games tend to be held back until all intended localization is done. Will denuvo help here? Probably not.

 

[jagdtigger]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

the only non-piracy emulation is when the emulator is included BY the developer

If that were true non of the emulators could stay afloat because corps(es) would dmca them into oblivion....

But thats not the case.

[Kisai]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

If that were true non of the emulators could stay afloat because corps(es) would dmca them into oblivion....

But thats not the case.

They can't include the console OS, so the person operating the emulator has to steal it. Duh.

[Spindel]

12 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

More like falsified it, comparing emulation to piracy is like comparing white to black......

Emulation in it self isn’t piracy. But (almost)every one that use emulators for games do it with pirated roms. And with current systems like Switch it is only about piracy. 

[jagdtigger]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

They can't include the console OS, so the person operating the emulator has to steal it. Duh.

Firmware files are readily available fof download feom the maker of the console so calling it stealing is  very brutal stretch to put it mildly.....

 

/EDIT

And before you grasp the last straw in the form of ild EOL unsupportex consoles taking abanxonware and making it usable again.is also very far feom stealing.

[Lightwreather]

9 hours ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

• Persona 5 Royal

There is the non-denuvo switch version, which is probably much easier to pirate

[SteveGrabowski0]

3 hours ago, Lightwreather JfromN said:

There is the non-denuvo switch version, which is probably much easier to pirate

I know, not saying I wanted to pirate it as I bought the game (actually multiple times). Just illustrating this isn't the old days where Denuvo games all got cracked. There is probably at least 60-70 Denuvo games uncracked right now and those are just the ones that came immediately to mind.

[Lightwreather]

9 minutes ago, SteveGrabowski0 said:

I know, not saying I wanted to pirate it as I bought the game (actually multiple times). Just illustrating this isn't the old days where Denuvo games all got cracked. There is probably at least 60-70 Denuvo games uncracked right now and those are just the ones that came immediately to mind.

I get that, I was just stating that at least for some titles, it's because there's an easier way

[Stahlmann]

 

I can't wait to have the switch performance bottlenecked even more because it's running DRM software on top of being woefully underpowered to begin with.

[Stahlmann]

9 hours ago, Master Link said:

I don't even care if I do buy the game, and play the cracked version.  If it means less stress and anxiety to my health beating my head over silly DRM nonsense that wants ring 0 access for god knows what, yes I would take that risk.  And if more people did it they might actually change their tune real fast once they hear WHY people are choosing to do it.  It's not like I'm not willing to pay for a game.  I just say no to DRM.

This is just another ridiculous what-a-mole.

- Companies crack down on piracy by implementing DRM software.

- New DRM software negatively impacts every user, not just the pirates

- More people pirate

- Companies have to implement even more intrusive anti-piracy measures

- Even more people pirate

 

Offer consumers a decent service for a fair price and priacy will gown down automatically.

 

How many people completely stopped pirating music once spotify and other music streaming services popped up?

 

How many people stopped pirating games once Steam blew up?

Now with other game stores forcing themself and their horrible ux onto new users, pirace is on the rise again.

I don't want to ever have to use EA's or Ubisofts terrible game launcher apps.

 

How many people stopped pirating content once Netflix blew up?

Just so Netflix continually made their service worse so piracy just got more and more attractive again.

As soon as they started cracking down on account sharing, i cancelled my subscription, installed uTorrent and added a browser bookmark for the pirate bay.

[AndreiArgeanu]

Denuvo is the cancer of modern games.

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

This is just another ridiculous what-a-mole.

- Companies crack down on piracy by implementing DRM software.

- New DRM software negatively impacts every user, not just the pirates

- More people pirate

- Companies have to implement even more intrusive anti-piracy measures

- Even more people pirate

Pretty much this, menwhile business is thriving on GoG without DRM so the false pretense for using it is falling apart.....

[darknessblade]

Great, now I can finally play zelda TOTK at a whopping 1fps on a switch

[Kisai]

14 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Firmware files are readily available fof download feom the maker of the console so calling it stealing is  very brutal stretch to put it mildly.....

 

/EDIT

And before you grasp the last straw in the form of ild EOL unsupportex consoles taking abanxonware and making it usable again.is also very far feom stealing.

It's not licensed to be downloaded or run by anything other than a switch device.

 

The point you are ignoring is that Nintendo is very much in the right, despite how horrible they are about being right. You need to do something unauthorized to acquire the firmware, just like acquiring the games. It makes no difference as far as copyright law cares.

 

If Nintendo doesn't make the emulator, and doesn't give you the ability to play switch games on the PC, then it's illegal to do so. It doesn't matter how the emulator was developed, it's not the emulator itself that's illegal, it's that the only reason anyone would have for having a non-Nintendo developed emulator is to play pirate games, because only pirated games exist to be played.

 

Let's just back this up a bit too:

 

The easiest way to keep people from doing illegal things, is to stop treating them like thieves in the first place. That has to come from a change in copyright law that treats the physical medial and the physical software/video/music/text/game/etc as two separate things. Because the way things exist right now, if you digitally download something, it is only permitted to be played on the device it was downloaded to. If your console dies, Nintendo requires you to re-buy everything. Same with Sony, and Microsoft, even Steam.

 

Hell, even moving to another country means abandoning all software you purchased in the original location. We've traded one region locking bullshit for another.