Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[trustmebro16]

2 minutes ago, Elinzar said:

Steve had it yes, like you had Billet labs number as well, and Pwned number for the mouse testing..., but in your best journalistic practices you didnt do it to validate your testing so why Steve should when it affects you?, but honestly that is not really the important bit

Neither is the inacurancies in LTT videos, i personaly dont care about that in your videos because LTT never was a reliable source, i watch it for entertainment, altough that there are people like me with this stance should make you worry about spending millions in making a lab for us to not really give a dam about the testing as we wont even trust it, what will be the point? (fr why would i trust a review that says this mouse is X thing when they cant even make sure to take the protective film out of the skates?

because credibility in testing is built over YEARS of perfecting the craft, something that both Steves have done

(another tangent, Short Circuit "might" be called an unboxing channel, but the moment they say "its backed up by labs testing" it is a review plan and simple)

But the worst part is just how Dirty you did to Billet labs intentional or not, you as an owner of a company that is involved in manufacturing and that you personally is involved lots into the creative process should know more than ANYONE how bad was to lose THEIR ONLY ONE PROTOTYPE BY SELLING IT OFF

its value for Billet labs is inmessurable as a company, is the culmination of years of hard work that cant just be replaced with money, what if your precious Screwdriver prototype that you took years to develop was lost like this, and the backpack, and how would you feel if both where your ONLY PRODUCT

Not only the poor review of the product that trashed their reputation as well, only monetary compensation will not be enough for them to put them back in the map up until now that everyone knows how dirty did to them, but if nobody blew the whistle we all would have been none the wiser to their inevitable dissapearance from the market, as well you know without a product, they cant eat or so you say

what it also kinda pisses me off is how you when you where a small fish at 1 million subs and Nvidia wanted to mess with all the media making treats you all unionised against the big fish to call them out

now that you are a big fish you are doing basically the same to a small company and you dont even want to look at the mess you created, you will, as you say too, pull an XQC and plug your ears and chant LALALALALA until this controversy pass just like with the Trust me bro controversy

lets all get mad when big corpo Nvidia try to screw the small media, But Spare Big Corpo LTT when it screws over a small startup because after 10+ years of begin in the game they still havent figured out how to have actual reliable comunications with the companies they work with, how many more years of learning you need? 20?

its my honest impression of what is going on with LTT and im saying this seriously pissed, i probably not be right 100% nor i know the entire situation, but im also not getting paid to write this so... yeah thats all i have to say, feel free to correct me but most likely wont be reading anything as i just made this account to give my take on all of this, i hope Linus actually listens for once, makes LTT have a pause and invest on solving their issues

Why are you reciting the events dramatically with needless emphasis as if everyone doesn't know what happenned or that it's bad already lol

 

Steve thought the lmg fanboys were going to try and stir up drama. He had no idea did he

[Sam Sepiol]

6 hours ago, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

I'm a long time LTT fan (and will continue to be) and empathize with much of this post but there is one thing still bothering me that I haven't seen others address specifically.

 

It's a bit disappointing that it still seems like you have a fundamental misunderstanding of some of the issues with the Billet Labs cooler video. I don't think the biggest issue is that people wanted to "see it rip" and are sad they didn't get that. While I agree the end result would have been the same (the conclusion that it was not worth the expensive price tag and didn't make sense) that doesn't mean that everything leading up to that is meaningless. In a market that you yourself described as "astonishingly unforgiving" don't you think you should have at least given the product a chance to show it's best potential (within reason) by using the claimed compatible components? Seems a bit unfair to a small company to do otherwise. I think this is magnified by them being so new/small as that could be some people's first and only impression of them. Doesn't help when you frame it as a cost issue either as then it makes it sound like your financial well being is more important than theirs and doing it "right".

 

tl;dr: While the conclusion was fair to the company/product, (if you're holding yourself to a high standard) the product demo part of the video wasn't and should have been too.

[OneGuy83]

2 minutes ago, AyesC said:

The community has clearly been frustrated with this for a while, but to see someone like GN finally make a wake-up call to LMG and Linus about the state of things might finally be what pushes them to change. Improvements are needed, and everyone agrees at this point.

 

I hope that this situation lights some fires inside LTT for the next while. I don't want them to burn, I want them to realize that people are tired of the direction they are headed in and want better.

I totally agree with you that there has been many small things over time, the one i mentioned in this post was the "straw that broke the camels back" so to speak   I am a huge supporter of both LTT and GN and believe they both strive for excellence and I wholy expect LTT to bounce back positively from this!

[martint2560]

Today sucks.  I enjoy both GN and LTT/LMG.  The GN video brings up many important points and I hope it is taken seriously and reflected on at LTT/LMG.  I can't presume to guess how long it would take for processes and training to be handled to eradicate the bulk of problem areas, but the more people that get added to the company the more exponential these process problems will be exacerbated.  My 2 cents as a fellow business owner but with zero context of the inner workings so take this for what it is, I would bite the bullet and do a company wide pause or at least the affected areas and put process creation/correction in place and come back stronger than ever with a video about all the criticisms and how you are addressing it. 
As for GN I think this sort of content has been serving them well and it is important.  However there is some room for criticism of this video and similar content they have made recently related to hardware failures etc. though they are saying the content isn't drama portions of it needlessly are and this hurts their journalistic integrity.  Pieces like this need to be open to comment from the affected party.  In the case of this particular video I did my best to listen for if GN reached out to LTT/LMG for comment prior to publishing.  LTT/LMG is within their right o decline but GN should note this as well.  Further Steve in pieces like this speculates motives of those being attacked which is a big no no.  This is opinion being presented as a narrative/fact and in the case of videos like this a defamation or at best an ambiguous statement that is damaging which could very well be false making it libel.  GN needs to cut this type of speculation out of these videos.  It plays well to tribalism but it puts GN at legal risk and the removal in my opinion doesn't degrade the gravitas of the content to any large degree.

[BendixSA]

We love LTT and we love the jank. We all really do, BUT you guys HAVE to know better when to jank and when you are just being KNOBS. The billet product is clearly a niche product not intended to be mass produced and your video on it DRIPS with "Couldn't be bothered". I expect you guys to PROPERLY FIX this situation. You are not the one man band you once where, LMG is a big corp. now and needs to learn very quickly that you do NOT enjoy the freedom you once had to just YOLO all the time.

LTT was once a small company too and if a big corp. took a sh1t on you guys we would have stood up, Now you are doing the sh1tting as a corp. and we shall be doing the standing up.

 

Please course correct immediately.

In Faith.

[LeapFrogMasterRace]

Nothing Steve said was new we just ignored it but the response Linus made is just offensive what does he take us for?

 

"Rome wasn't built in a day" sorry but how long has LTT been benchmarking GPUs, like over a decade now? The whole new team thing is not a proper excuse. A 13 year old can extract benchmark data and put it in excel to make graphs (I know because I have done it with fraps as a wee lad, plenty of DX12 open source tools today too) and Linus practically head hunted his staff. Now that GN threw it back to back in 1 video I can't fathom how common the issues are. The stuff gamers nexus pointed out is legit and it's part of the reason we rely on other sources for reviews (yeah obviously) but it seems to be a especially reoccurring issue with LTT benchmarks. 

 

My comment on this is I have seen flaws and low testing standards from day one everything GN mentioned was basically in the back of my mind for a decade and many others I am sure.   I have been watching LTT/NCIX actively for ~9+ years now and was always shocked how LTT was always late to the game despite them then and now being one of the biggest. For example 1% lows and .1% lows included in graphs took almost a decade to finally be included vs other smaller channels! Just stating that to further say I've not been impressed with testing details and that GN is not dropping any bombshells. Seriously it seems like every single damn video has a comment under it correcting some obvious mistake which should be just embarrassing to LMG.

 

For starters every single comment that was made by Steve should be addressed. No sugar coating or excuses or finger pointing if LTT has to flat out take a few Ls so be it. After all many of us already knew the things Steve mentioned we just don't care because as enthusiasts we already know what articles to read and to watch 3 minimum other channels and the noobs obviously don't know enough to call it out.

 

Oh and I literally have been unsubbed from GN for like 6 years at this point as I started finding Steve annoying a while ago so it's not like I'm even one of his fanboys. 

 

 

 

[Zodiark1593]

13 minutes ago, suits said:

In America, which Linus is not in, yet he follows all the rules, he tells us he is invested in framework in every laptop video.

 

I have no horse in the race either. LMG done messed up a bunch. But GN and these comments are so self-righteous about the framework thing, to which I respond 3 fold and add a 4th, they always disclose it. 

                                         VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV                                                       VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

 

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I don't care if he reads the script or not, as for disclosure its probably legally fine if he discloses his investment with Framework, but I'm not a lawyer. Although Linus reviewing laptops at all does raise a concern of reviewer integrity, I would rather see someone else without a bias towards Framework review laptops.

Using this quote for my point...

 

When I mentioned the potential appearance of impropriety, I was not referring to the legal world. Public opinion is similarly subject to this. Linus does not have to do anything factually, legally, or even ethically wrong, to put forward (inadvertently or otherwise) an appearance of impropriety to the audience.

 

For anyone in a public facing position, this is an important factor to consider, and weigh the potential implications of.

[just a normal guy]

After watch the video, I have to say that I understand all the data in video can be human error. Which we all make. (To be fair, LTT do make corrections) 
However, I do think it’s not right to not test again with proper graphic card because it will be much more costly. 
If you don’t do that, it’s ok as well. But at least take down the video, or issue a public apology. Because the product should be use with proper documentation or instructions in the first place. 
It’s just mine opinions though. Happy to discuss.
 

[Kisai]

8 minutes ago, Pyroteq said:

 

 

With all that said, Steve seems VERY biased against LMG for some weird reason and it felt like a very personal attack (Again, cutting in WAN show clips). I feel like Steve is trying way too hard to be some arbiter of truth, except him reporting on a competing tech channel isn't really "balanced" journalism to begin with as there's no real way to be unbiased in this situation.

 

LMG is a competitor to them and Steve is talking about ethics while he spends 45 minutes bashing another tech YouTube channel.

Youtube isn't a "competition" , it's who can please the algorithm overlord the best.

 

If anything I always see Linus and Steve as kind of a Odd couple. Linus is sloppy but more popular, Steve gets wrapped up in details that maybe don't actually matter. That means that most of Steves stuff is pretty dry as far as entertainment value goes. Linus on the other hand has done some things that could get people injured, sued or even catch a case of death.

 

Like there are several instances where I don't know how the hell lawyers didn't shoot something down for LTT videos.

 

[Guest]

You appear to be confused on what journalistic practices and integrity mean. Pretending LMG doesn't have serious problems would be a journalistic failure. Your peers should be calling you out, because you certainly don't listen when it's the community. When we are upset, you just meme the controversy on WAN and make Luke and all but the most knuckle-dragging of your fans uncomfortable. The "we're the victim and aren't changing anything" response was entirely expected. 

 

Your company has outgrown the ability to be irresponsible with its reach, and you've historically had a very hard time with handling situations where you're in the wrong. You have an opportunity to do so much good for the space and your community, but you're going to need to eat some humble pie real fast. 

[Tugmaster]

Not talking about this on the WAN show or this week is defensive or possibly a defeat. Pitchforks are out (like it or not), and its up to Linus or the new CEO to talk to the citizens to put them down. If they do nothing, the village will be overrun. Its your turn LMG what do you do?

[ByThePowerOfGrayskull]

@LinusTech Thank you for taking the time to write a response. 

 

I would hope that there was a misunderstanding between GN and LMG, and GN had reached out for comment prior to publication as you are perfectly correct that would be a normal journalistic practice.  I would like to think that GN practices good journalism, but disappointment is the order of the day it seems.  However, regardless of GN's own potential shortcomings, there are valid issues raised regardless of opportunity to comment.

 

i also completely understand the growing pains.  Complexity is an exponential bastard, and fights dirty too.  With all the scaling LMG has done, I think it's pretty obvious that vision has outpaced just about everything else, and these compounded mistakes are the result.  Hopefully, when the new CEO was brought in (sorry, no idea how to spell his name and not gonna try), a lot of the friction points started to get smoothed out.  If not, then perhaps this might be a "come to jesus" moment regarding how LMG reviews scripts prior to shoots and reviews content prior to publication, and perhaps taken as an opportunity to prioritize getting those processes right over production volume.

I think in your heart, you still think of yourself of Linus, the guy with the scrappy little YouTube channel about PC gaming.  But you really need to internalize the idea that you aren't Linus of the scrappy little YouTube Channel.  You are Linus, the Director of a $100 million media corporation.  That's awesome!  You built that!  But it also means that LMG can't get away with a lot of the stuff that Linus, the guy with the scrappy little YouTube channel could.  For example, not wanting to spend $500 to properly review a completely over-built, over-priced, ludicrous water block.  Scrappy Linus could get away with "eh 4090 is like a 3090 but more, right?" because resources weren't an issue.  But your company has spent millions on LTT labs to provide accurate testing for consumer PC products.  The belief that spending $500 for accuracy wasn't worth the ROI sounds kind of boneheaded compared to that investment, doesn't it?

 

I think there are other points Steve made that you didn't address.  For example, the use of "Swap in Place" I believe it was called, to update corrected videos instead of removing the inaccurate videos until they can be corrected.  That is a choice that continues to spread bad information after LMG has been alerted to the inaccuracy.  That inaccurate information could be removed immediately by taking down the video, but LMG instead chooses to leave that information up longer, and it's hard not to speculate that choice is made so as not to negatively impact the monetization of the video.  I'm not a YouTuber, I truly have no idea how monetization works, but I would assume that a video with more views is more valuable, and removing and replacing a video effectively resets the view count.  Based on that understanding, it would appear that this choice is done in the sense of profits over accuracy and transparency.  And no, I'm not going to guy that a pinned comment to a video is effective notification of an inaccuracy.  This was not a one-off, but appears to be a repeated decision by LMG.

So as consumers, what are we to make of a $100 million corporation that appears to put profits before limiting the spread of inaccuracies?  Sure, a lot of those were very minor inaccuracies.  Others, such as the whole thing with the mouse or the vastly overstated performance of the 4090 are pretty major, but the choices about how to correct those failures were the same. 

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but we're not your friends.  We're customers, and when it comes to LMG the product we buy is information.  What would you do, what have you done, when GPU manufacturers have put increasing revenue ahead of the quality of the product?  If there's one thing I've learned from watching Kevin O'Leary on shark tank, its that you can't compromise your core product.  Unfortunately, some of the choices made by LMG in the past have led to questions regarding LMG's core product. 

I hope that LMG is able to, figuratively, take a step back and re-evaluate some of the choices and motivations for those choices, and make better ones in the future.

[Elinzar]

12 minutes ago, trustmebro16 said:

Why are you reciting the events dramatically with needless emphasis as if everyone doesn't know what happenned or that it's bad already lol

 

Steve thought the lmg fanboys were going to try and stir up drama. He had no idea did he

idk is how i feel i guess, it isnt really for everyone to read mostly for linus to read tho, but you are right i probably went a bit melodramatic

[wanshow]

8 minutes ago, Elinzar said:

But the worst part is just how Dirty you did to Billet labs intentional or not, you as an owner of a company that is involved in manufacturing and that you personally is involved lots into the creative process should know more than ANYONE how bad was to lose THEIR ONLY ONE PROTOTYPE BY SELLING IT OFF

its value for Billet labs is inmessurable as a company, is the culmination of years of hard work that cant just be replaced with money, what if your precious Screwdriver prototype that you took years to develop was lost like this, and the backpack, and how would you feel if both where your ONLY PRODUCT

Not only the poor review of the product that trashed their reputation as well, only monetary compensation will not be enough for them to put them back in the map up until now that everyone knows how dirty did to them, but if nobody blew the whistle we all would have been none the wiser to their inevitable dissapearance from the market, as well you know without a product, they cant eat or so you say

I think it was the last WAN show, where they mentioned that someone came to LTX with an early prototype backpack. Apparently the person got it from a thrift/goodwill store, that ended up there by way of one of their own employees (who gave it to a family member that might have donated it?) They were cognizant of the harm that could have done to the reputation of the product if it had leaked. I imagine the potential risks are more with the Bullit product, since there are fewer competitors in that space compared to backpacks and screwdrivers.

 

Sounds like the Linus solution here would be to take a check for the retail cost of the backpack or screwdriver and be completely unphased by it, right?

 

It would be really interesting to hear how someone even got the idea to auction it off, and how it made its way into someone's hands like that in the first place, especially after it got repeat attention in addressing the controversy. 

[poochyena]

they can't even double check that some imgur links they posted work or not. How absolutely embarrassing

 

[DEezNutzXDDDDDDDDDDDD]

This what happens when kept reusing shitty old memes in every fkn video. XDDDDDDDDDDD Hope the channel dies.

Spoiler

Me when I didn't watch or read the posts, I just want to shit on LTT xdd

 

< image removed, unnecessary language >

Edited August 15, 2023 by LogicalDrm

[Bloodedbythought]

Like some others, I've made an account to comment. Long time viewer not usually on the forums.

 

I've watched and appreciated the videos for years and generally consider most to be valuable mainly as entertainment, and in some cases as a means of hearing about new tech and industry issues that I will go research on my own. The Techlinked and Gamelinked channels are the gems for me - I watch them with my 12yo daughter and we discuss tech culture. I also bought a screwdriver and love it, and recommend it to others. I really appreciate all the hosts, the general whimsy, and the diverse personalities (Dan is a fave). The addition of Jessica and Jakob recently has added a lot to an already great writing team.

 

That all said, the GN video raised valid thematic issues. Even if someone thinks GN's motivations or rhetorical strategies are wrong, or they show bad faith, that doesn't negate the systemic patterns identified. As with most things like this, though, the problem really comes out in the responses - short term and long term. The immediate response posted by Linus above comes off as exasperated, maybe even a bit petulant. The preemptive "no WAN show discussion" seems silly, too, since it's hard to imagine the draconian moderation that is going to be needed to keep the topic out.

 

This will all pass, no doubt, but what won't is Linus's nature (at least as I've witnessed it, and what can be inferred from his comments) to be overly defensive, impatient, and stubborn when things like this arise. Not an ideal nature to have as the central public and most outspoken face of what appears to be a pretty big enterprise. Not being CEO isn't likely counter this issue either, since the power dynamics as they relate to the employee and the public imagination of LMG aren't meaningfully changed.

 

Anyway, at least I'm entertained, and the screwdriver works

[Red Hardware]

7 hours ago, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

As someone who has been watching LTT since the old house days and reading/watching GN for many years, I don't think there are any major ethics or integrity problems with either party. I don't believe LMG having Asus or Noctua as sponsors is the reason behind any positive reviews (or lack of negative ones). The same goes with having a CEO that had worked for Dell and Corsair or having Gary as head of the labs, these are not problems IMO, people always move between companies.

I also believe that GN should have asked LMG for comments on selling the prototype to get the full story.

 

The current problem with LMG imho is accuracy. Some of it is growing pains which I totally understand and I think we can see a clear improvement if we look at where they started at with Labs. The other part of the problem is ShortCircuit, the videos blur the line between unboxing and review and they might also involve data from Labs (which can be a good thing if they explain the testing methodology or link to it) but at the same time, the host can sound totally uninformed about the products and make obvious mistakes. The last example that comes to mind is Galaxy Z Flip 5 video. The video was too late to just be a simple unboxing (other channels posted full reviews around the same time frame). There were also test data from labs which also indicates that this is more than a simple unboxing or first impressions but at the same time, the host made mistakes which indicates that he didn't even properly research this product, for example, he said you can't run every app on the cover screen but you can, you just need to enable it in settings, a point that other sources got right. He also said that he doesn't know how many updates the phone will get and Samsung is slow at releasing updates. Anyone who follows the smartphone space or does proper research knows that Samsung offers 4 years of Android updates and 5 years of security updates (even on their midrange phones) which is even better than what Google offers. If I'm not mistaken, they also are 2nd fastest in releasing new Android versions (just behind Google) and at times were faster than Google in releasing monthly security updates. 

 

These kinds of inaccuracies and mistakes are becoming more common on ShortCircuit and thus making it harder to trust the information provided in other ShortCircuit videos as well. I mean how can I trust the information on a shortcircuit video about a topic that I'm not familiar with if I can easily find simple errors in videos about topics that I am familiar with? 

 

Maybe when a shortcircuit video is becoming less of an unboxing and more of a review, the host should do proper research and writing before shooting the video and commenting on the product. Maybe set a minimum number of days that the host should use the product for when videos are more than a simple unboxing. 

The correct solution might be something else but I do believe that LMG management can come up with a solution to improve the accuracy of the information provided especially in ShortCircuit videos.

[SpitefulBatman]

7 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Getting all the details before publication is *NOT* the opposite of journalistic integrity.

This isn't about being on a side... There's no war. You don't need to fight. You need to slow down and think.... 

Hello kettle, my name is pot and you're black!

[Enne]

I'm new here on the forum, but feel like giving my 2 cents on this.

I've been watching LTT videos (and mostly TL, TQ and SC) for about 4-5 years now. It's great entertainment, and since i'm prime viewer for this stuff, if i've missed more videos in that span of time then i would sell what little I have and go live in the woods (yes, all of this to say i've watched pretty much uninterrupted all content on the channels).

 

The video on the Billet labs when it was launched already left a pretty bad taste on my mouth, yeah, it being a bad product and making no sense to buy it could be deduced with any test, be it on the 3090 or the 4090, but i think just because the subject is going to fail a test, it's still not ok to make it harder for it.  If you are going to make someone complete a 30 minute underwater challenge, just to prove your point that humans can't spend prolonged periods of time whitout breathing, it's still not in great taste to add sharks to the water. And yes, the example is exaggerated on purpose.

But for me in specific, what was most evident in these later videos and stuff, is how out of touch some videos can get. Altough the projects have gotten more complex and for sure more difficult to tackle, doing it half-ass just to prove a concept, running aida64 and furmark, calling it a POC, promissing to implement it by the code at the end of the video, just for 2-3 months later we get info on wan that "oh, that stuff? yeah, noone never continued, so it's pretty much the same" that is a huge bummer at least for me.

 

Also if you're having problems getting your message accross, try to push the release date closer to filming date, would have saved you guys on the ebay mini-controversy stuff, many videos can get by with some weeks of even months of times apart, but not SC stuff with sponsorships on second hand phones, cmon guys...

 

Yes, it's easy to complain when i'm not involved, but at the end of the day, i do think i represent a bit of the viewership of the channel, and thats whats been bothering me most.

[Faer-Anne]

I don't usually partake in these heated topics (or at all really), but having now seen the video and read through nearly 60 pages of comments, I think I finally have a conclusion I can come to.

First, the industry as a whole needs a good reset, LTT included.  Everything is banked on the Youtube algorithm, which will always favor quick fire without thinking.  Everyone in the industry has to make a choice on either following the algorithm and producing sub-par content, or focusing on high quality content that youtube fails to deliver.  There is always the option (especially with a company of the size of LTT) to split the work and create quick fire content on one channel, and focused accurate content on another, but if you do that (and I think that would absolutely be a good idea), you *have* to keep that divide strong.  Reviews and recommendations would *have* to be sluggish and well thought out, and can't be mixed with the "janky build ahaha" stuff.  There's a place for both, especially if the Labs pans out well.

Second, There are wrongs on both sides.  LTT (and Linus in particular) needs to accept and admit that something is broken, and commit to fixing that *above all else*.  Gamers Nexus, you need to stick to proper journalistic integrity.  This needed to be shared, but you 100% should have reached out *First* and gotten a comment from LTT.  I doubt anything would have changed, but that's still the right thing to do.

Third, Linus, you keep going on rants on Wan show about Trust and the quality of companies.  Few people aren't hypocrites to some extend, and it's time to acknowledge you've done the same.  Trust in LTT and in you is lost.  It's gonna be a while before people can trust you again.  There's no immediate fix, but you *must* recognize you've slipped, and that your word isn't worth as much anymore.  You don't need to make a big todo about this on Wan show, but you *can't* keep saying "I would hope people trust me", or "Trust me bro".  This entire video shows why people don't anymore.  It's time to be concrete, and provide proof as to why we should trust you again.  And maybe that requires you to stop being the face of LTT.  Let the CEO make the calls. Let Terren make the calls, and respect them.  Let him speak on behalf of the company.  And if people demand a response, tell them you're keeping your mouth shut and letting someone with significantly more experience handle it.

All this is my own conclusions and musings.  I'm still an OG floatplane subscriber mostly because I can't stand YouTube.  Since I already pay the lowest amount, I'm personally not going anywhere just yet, I at least wanna see where this is going.  Maybe I've missed something, or don't have a perspective Terren has, but maybe this post could be something that shakes something loose in LMG and lets them be better.  Idk.  Or maybe this will be lost in the sea of 60 pages of replies.

TL;DR:
Might be time to break up into a "funny videos haha" section, a serious "Labs review" section.  Stop chasing the algorithm.
GN, reach out for comment next time *first*.  LTT, you've broken something, admit it and quit it.
Linus, you broke trust.  Now you have to prove you're worth it again.

I'm not going anywhere just yet, but there's a long slope to trust.

[Blademaster91]

43 minutes ago, trustmebro16 said:

Does LMG need to put out a techquickie on how to use ctrl f

 

Also,.it sounds like even if he did apologies, the apologies are too corporate. Nice goalpost moving

 

Wat do you want him to do to.make it less corporate? Bake you a cake? 

 

You realise he owes you no apology right. You are not a victim in all this.

 

And it's fine calling people who have differing opinions fanboys. Doesnt exactly strengthen your argument tho

I'm not even sure what you're on about lol.

If you read the pinned post from Linus, you'd see he is more talking about how he is "disappointed" at GN for bringing up valid points, and turning around and saying GN's ethics are bad for not asking for permission to make a video calling out LMG on their mistakes. Linus also doubled down on saying the Billet block was bad, even though it was used on a 4090, not a 3090Ti it was made for.

I would want Linus to be more honest about this, and he doesn't owe viewers an apology, he owes the people at Billet an apology for the massive screw up of putting the block on the wrong GPU, then auctioning off the block, then acting like the whole problem can go away because he gave them money to shut up about it.

30 minutes ago, trustmebro16 said:

Why are you reciting the events dramatically with needless emphasis as if everyone doesn't know what happenned or that it's bad already lol

 

Steve thought the lmg fanboys were going to try and stir up drama. He had no idea did he

People are emphasizing it because there seems to be people that don't realize just how bad of a mistake that is, and a company the size of LMG shouldn't have f%^&ed up that badly in the first place, Linus thinks he can just go whoopsie and hand over some money, even though he ruined the name of the company because he messed up the review.

Steve knowing the LMG fanboys would come in to defend Linus could be a reason why he put up the video as a surprise, I'm sure Steve knows after the backpack warranty controversy Linus will use his fans to make him seem like he is always the good guy and anyone that posts constructive criticisms are just angry "haters".

[AldiPrayogi]

At least a WAN show segment discussing the Billet Lab prototype thing needs to happen.

The rest of the points Steve talked about CAN be defensible (rushed schedule, etc) but that prototype thing is NOT without the proper context from LMG. I think the fans and others deserve that. It's not about the drama or anything but a clarification on HOW such a fuck up could happen. @LinusTech

[ZombieMan762]

4 minutes ago, BendixSA said:

We love LTT and we love the jank. We all really do, BUT you guys HAVE to know better when to jank and when you are just being KNOBS. The billet product is clearly a niche product not intended to be mass produced and your video on it DRIPS with "Couldn't be bothered". I expect you guys to PROPERLY FIX this situation. You are not the one man band you once where, LMG is a big corp. now and needs to learn very quickly that you do NOT enjoy the freedom you once had to just YOLO all the time.

LTT was once a small company too and if a big corp. took a sh1t on you guys we would have stood up, Now you are doing the sh1tting as a corp. and we shall be doing the standing up.

 

Please course correct immediately.

In Faith.

 

Very much so and what's hilariously hypocritical is they released the video about the $100k desk PC they milled out of a solid huge chunk of aluminum a couple of weeks after the Billet Labs video. So, we're supposed to get hyped and watch a video where Linus/LTT go WAY overboard making a product that has zero economical value but ignore Linus drawing a conclusion before the camera was even turned on and put zero effort into giving a fair review with the excuse that the conclusion would have been the same? Both are niche products that have little to no economic value but that is not the reason people make them. Besides the $100k desk PC LTT has made several fun videos that feature absurd setups, and they use the price of these setups as clickbait to get people to watch. Another company makes an absurd (cost wise) product and Linus suddenly decides it's not worth doing properly because he had his conclusion pre-determined and gave so little ****s he couldn't even be bothered to use the correct GPU that block was designed for. 

[jitteryzeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, wanshow said:

I think it was the last WAN show, where they mentioned that someone came to LTX with an early prototype backpack. Apparently the person got it from a thrift/goodwill store, that ended up there by way of one of their own employees (who gave it to a family member that might have donated it?) They were cognizant of the harm that could have done to the reputation of the product if it had leaked. I imagine the potential risks are more with the Bullit product, since there are fewer competitors in that space compared to backpacks and screwdrivers.

 

Sounds like the Linus solution here would be to take a check for the retail cost of the backpack or screwdriver and be completely unphased by it, right?

 

It would be really interesting to hear how someone even got the idea to auction it off, and how it made its way into someone's hands like that in the first place, especially after it got repeat attention in addressing the controversy. 

The answer is simple.

 

Billet doesn't sponsor Linus, and they're of no value for hobknobbing with industry types, so he doesn't care.  He has nothing to gain from their relationship.  Even their prototype was just "memorabilia" for him to auction off as he pleases.