Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[arcanition]

5 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Billet sent us a quote. I don't know or care how they arrived at the value. If they're good, I'm good.

As for what steps we're taking, you're talking about an outlier issue that has happened once in 10+ years of operation. There won't be a new SOP to ensure we don't accidentally auction stuff. We just need to tighten up some documentation.

Why does this reply really feel like you're saying "we'll pay you some money for the copper block we oopsie sold, go away and stfu about this"?

 

It doesn't feel like you're sorry for the situation. It feels like you think you did nothing wrong and just want to pay the money to get people to shut up.

[jitteryzeitgeist]

1 minute ago, duke_seb said:

Exactly…. The guys at billet are probably sitting back laughing at how well this will work out for them.  
 

first they get a blank check and now…..
 

how many people are going to google them and look them up.  Maybe buy something.  Some may even buy something in “solidarity” 

 

having their stuff up for auction be it most likely a management error is probably a dream

Tell me you have no idea how manufacturing works without telling me.

[sjwatt]

I don’t know if Linus or anyone at LMG will read this, but I hope they do. All this rabble rousing, while spicy, is just that. The issues Steve raised about accuracy and such are IMO significant but minor compared to the apparent goal of LMG to raise consumer awareness about the shitster-ism that proliferates throughout the tech products industry(cough nvidia cough). LMG’s strategy of playing to the algorithm to get as many eyes on them as possible is a valid strategy in this regard, and given that, mistakes will be made. I appreciate Steve and the role GN plays in the tech journalism space, but it is a slightly different one than LMG, if GN is like NPR then LMG is CNN. You can’t expect the same from both of them in any regard, and you can’t hold them to exactly the same standards. As for the swathe of complaints about the shill-ish nature of LMG and their own merch, it has been made painfully clear that Linus is sinking nearly all of his money, not to mention his youth, back into growing his brand, for the aforementioned goal of consumer awareness and normalizing transparency in technology, the merch is literally fundraising…. Everyone is complaining but nobody is acknowledging that we are all better off because of what Linus is doing and how he is doing it, I hope he keeps it up.

[wanshow]

I've been a regular WAN show VOD listener for a couple of years now, infrequent viewer of other LMG content (edit: and have watched Linus as far back as the NCIX Esther + Linus videos). If Linus sticks to his guns with his earlier statement in the thread, then I'm done with LMG content.

 

If by chance someone reads this post in the chaos of this thread, could you please recommend a similar show to the WAN show? I'd love to support a smaller creator while finding a substitute. The length, frequency, topic coverage in both breadth and depth was just about right for me. The others I know of are too deep on a single topic, or have other issues on accuracy, entertainment, etc. I enjoyed the commentary and banter of the WAN show at times, and only occasionally have been bothered by Linus' lack of maturity in which criticisms he'd respond to and how.

 

The earlier reply is completely missing the point. Maybe he's flustered, maybe he's out of touch, maybe it's deliberate as some kind of CYA, I don't really care. Compensating Bullet (edit: Billet) for what sounds like just the cost of the copper, without acknowledging the damage to the brand's reputation, interruption in working with partners, new production, or worst of all, leaking IP to competitors is... ridiculous. I'm not too familiar with Steve's previous work but flailing about journalistic integrity seems comically hypocritical given the nature of the allegations here in the first place.

 

I don't really expect LMG's content to change, if they are chasing what they perceive to be the algorithm's preference (and mass appeal), growth, higher frequency, lower quality, etc. is probably what you will get. There has been a subtone of this for a while, eg. WAN show is delayed because we need to help employees meet their KPIs of publishing a certain number of videos, we don't do niche content because it doesn't get enough views, and so forth. In some ways it feels similar to the toxic corporate direction of publicly traded companies, low effort react streamers, etc. that they've been critical of in the past; and the viewers will probably continue to vote with their wallets for more.

[CradleGames]

4 minutes ago, Albal_156 said:

If GN want to be journalists then they aren't doing a very good job of presenting both sides of a argument that is for sure yes. They've done so in the past with the Newegg videos while also speaking to former members of Artesian Builds to get lots of sides to the story but yeah despite the many valid criticisms made in the video the start of the video specifically felt too much like a hit piece.

Maybe the suspicion comes from the TMB incident (over year ago now tbh can't believe its this prevalent still) where Linus just told everyone to trust him. I will be honest I've got no reason to distrust Linus about something as I feel he's had good track record but a CEO of a corp telling you trust him over a prodct with no warranty thats shipped worldwide isn't a good look despite previous track records so perhaps thats the reason why GN is distrustful.

A journalist job is NOT to present both side of an argument. A journalist job is to open the window, look out and tell you when it's raining. 
That "both side" crap is why American's news is a joke now without a ounce of credibility. 

[VeryScary]

Just now, jitteryzeitgeist said:

I want to remind you of what you, specifically you said

Now if you were that company who sent you a high dollar custom watercooled block to LTT, likely their only prototype, are you going to sit here and honestly, to my face, tell me they were expecting it to be put in a joke video, used on the wrong video card, and never returned?

 

That's what Billet Labs was expecting from Linus Tech Tips?

Who said it was a joke video? What where the agreements made between the company and LTT about what type of video they wanted the product featured in?

 

LTT called the company and asked them if the card would work on a 4090 and the company said yes, it should work. But hey, let's all ignore that part. Why should the company be held responsible for the role that they played?

[bandainamcofan]

Just now, sjwatt said:

 Everyone is complaining but nobody is acknowledging that we are all better off because of what Linus is doing and how he is doing it, I hope he keeps it up.

In what way does refusing to test a waterblock on the card it was designed for benefit consumers? 

[jitteryzeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, VeryScary said:

Who said it was a joke video? What where the agreements made between the company and LTT about what type of video they wanted the product featured in?

 

LTT called the company and asked them if the card would work on a 4090 and the company said yes, it should work. But hey, let's all ignore that part. Why should the company be held responsible for the role that they played?

You said it was a joke video specifically because 2 people who didn't know what they were doing were put in charge of it.  That's what LTT does when ITS TIME FOR WACKY HIJINKS

 

The company did NOT say it should work.  They said THEY HADN'T TESTED IT.  You don't need to lie for Linus, he's a big boy.

[TrevKen]

5 hours ago, LinusTech said:

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community...

 

 

Which is why this response stinks all the more. It sounds like you are blaming "cancel culture" and are trying to deflect rather than take responsibility and say you f'd up.

[Gncsmd]

There’s a reason LTT has been successful.  Don’t let the noise interfere with the plan.  Your team is on the right track.  “Haters gunna hate”.  44 minutes of pure cope.  
 

Look at all the perfect little people in the forum with their successful companies giving advice.  They have never made mistakes, they have never left a stone unturned.  They are all perfect.

 

To Linus and the team.  This is what jealousy looks like.  If they’re jealous, you’re doing it right.  Pedal to the medal let them cope.  For some of you it will be the first time experiencing this, trust me when I tell you this, it’s normal.  Keep your eyes on the prize.  
 

- Some guy on the internet

[Catsrules]

5 minutes ago, duke_seb said:

Exactly…. The guys at billet are probably sitting back laughing at how well this will work out for them.  
 

first they get a blank check and now…..
 

how many people are going to google them and look them up.  Maybe buy something.  Some may even buy something in “solidarity” 

 

having their stuff up for auction be it most likely a management error is probably a dream

Yes they are just look at there Reddit account lol.

https://www.reddit.com/user/Billet_Labs

 

[HaughtonBothered]

Honestly, I'm really disappointed in GN. Steve is a good journalist, who knows good journalistic practices. He knows, therefore, that the first step in any story like this is to reach out for comment. But for this, he specifically CHOSE not to do so. Why? Because then the message he wanted to send in the video would fall flat. Linus would have responded with "yup, we are aware of these issues are are doing the following to correct them". For a hit piece about journalistic integrity, it is incredibly hypocritical. 

[Birblover12]

5 minutes ago, Tehkast said:

The labs data mistakes just seems like a shot for the sake of it Jesus its early days and recall a comment on the WAN show within the last 3 weeks talking about a fact checker and just how impractical that would be as no-one could be a expect on the wide variety of topics they need to fact check the videos.

Main issue I have with the incorrect data (e.g useful data, like GPU FPS numbers, not "random CPU spec no one cares about"), is that because LTT is by FAR the largest tech reviewer on YouTube (and probably in the world) so when there's issues that are consistently happening, it wildly effects hundreds if not thousands of user's buying decisions. 

 

LMG is no longer just "a little YouTube Channel", people have to stop treating as such. It's now a literal company valued at over $100M with over 100+ Employees, when they make mistakes it's no longer just "a little issue", any issue whatsoever becomes a big issue when you deal with channels this size, and should be treated as such.

[jitteryzeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Catsrules said:

Yes they are just look at there Reddit account lol.

https://www.reddit.com/user/Billet_Labs

 

I'll have "taken out of context" for $1,000, Alex

[Texbobcat]

15 minutes ago, Legitsu said:

again so billetlabs was informed on the 11th they lmg didn't have the block anymore

you can't count weekends because well business days 

 

so at the earlist assuming somebody texted or emailed linus on friday/saturday 

the soonest anything could be done about it was TODAY monday 

the fact that they have already agreed to resolve the issue on the FIRST business Day since being made aware is pretty quick

 

steve intentionally didn't wait so he could use this issue to sell his entire video and you people who apperently don't understand how days work or how businesses work in the real world got sucked right in and paid no mind to the timeline that was being provided 

 

and as for the point about the missing prototype being a major problem for billet labs

I am sorry like if you lose one prototype and its the end of the world for you? then my god what are you even doing? fire up the cnc machine and cut anouther one if you can't come up with anouther prototype and you expect to ship in novemeber ? brauh what are you doing.

 

and assurdly there is no possblity of anybody 'stealing' anything from the prototype trust me bro(tm) nobody in the industry cares because the design is litteral dogwater and linus is right when its that bad nobody should ever buy one ever because its extremely clear the billetlabs has no idea what they are doing 

 

 

 

 

I was going to stop commenting until I read this dumb af post.

Prototypes are expensive as fuck, they are a startup, they can't just pull a couple thousands of dollars out their ass like LTT can and still have an operational company.

[muxus]

So imagine, you send your dear screwdriver to a company to review, you say that the screwdriver is rated for x amount of torque the reviewer applys y torque and says your screwdriver is crap coz it didn't behave well with y amount of torque. In this case its even worse you sold(auctioned) the prototype of the product.  How would you feel if it was you?. And do you think that is ethic and a good review?... I'm sad to say but 80% of what GN said is true, and instead of being a big boy and apologizing, you are continuing to make excuses for behaviours you would consider inapropriate if they were directed at your products, thats being called being an hypocrite. This is not the 1st time you acted this way and we all hope you realise your faults. If you want companies to keep trusting you and to give you products to review you should apologize . Stop being self centered and imature 

[sjwatt]

2 minutes ago, bandainamcofan said:

In what way does refusing to test a waterblock on the card it was designed for benefit consumers? 

It obviously doesn’t, it’s a symptom of the pace Linus has set for their releases. That pace is necessary to remain relevant on YouTube, relevancy on YouTube is necessary to affect change in the tech products industry. In this case: the ends justify the mistakes.

[Drazil100]

6 minutes ago, arcanition said:

Why does this reply really feel like you're saying "we'll pay you some money for the copper block we oopsie sold, go away and stfu about this"?

 

It doesn't feel like you're sorry for the situation. It feels like you think you did nothing wrong and just want to pay the money to get people to shut up.

While I don't think it came across very well, and I would definitely be interested in hearing what Billet has too say about this, I think the point is more to say "We can't reverse time to undo selling the block, we are doing whatever we can to make them happy". Linus has a bad habit of phrasing things poorly, but until I hear what Billet has to say about this, if they are happy, then I am happy.

I am move concerned about him throwing Steve under the bus for not contacting him first before making this video.

[brainypole]

Long time viewer, first time getting involved by posting.

 

The one thing I hope is that this company creates more time for itself by lessening the workload. I enjoy the videos but the concerns raised are valid.

 

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the concerns that LTT leaves up inaccurate data or that the crunch sacrifices accuracy. You know more than almost anyone the tail of a video, and how any corrections made after a day or two will not be seen and will not reach the original viewers. 

 

It is fair of you to ask time in order to create rock solid processes as the lab develops and as the new CEO beds himself in, and it is fair of you to ask for leniency. In the meantime however, I think it is fair of us to ask you to be more aggressive in taking down misleading or inaccurate data when it's noticed or called out. I don't think it would be fair to have it both ways. Short term profitability must be a lower priority than long term accountability and trust.

 

Linus, please consider a statement with more specifics regarding the standards and processes in future content. It doesn't have to be framed as drama or back and forth with Steve. Not talking about this outside of the forum is a classic large company PR move of letting the bad press die down. Talking about it will cause you short term hardship by shining a brighter light on it, but if executed well enough will increase your core audience's trust in you.

 

Long term, Labs/LTT needs to have a published set of standards and processes, which will be helpful for employees to follow and viewers to have trust in. I don't expect that to arrive overnight, but it must arrive by the time the Labs website goes live.

 

P.S.

To the people in this thread acting childish or taking sides like the issue is black and white, touch grass and grow up.

[jitteryzeitgeist]

Just now, Texbobcat said:

I was going to stop commenting until I read this dumb af post.

Prototypes are expensive as fuck, they are a startup, they can't just pull a couple thousands of dollars out their ass like LTT can and still have an operational company.

You can tell who has and who hasn't gone through a prototyping/testing phase at a company before with a non off-the-shelf product.  Shit is an absolute money hole, just thousands and tens of thousands out the door.

[Gus Pyles]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

If you're new to the channel, I understand why you might not know this, but we are extremely committed to improving our accuracy to the point where we are building out a $10M+ facility jam-packed full of equipment and engineering know-how. It's taking time, and this kind of aggressive expansion has been a learning curve for us, but to frame our recent actions as "sacrificing accuracy" is misleading at best. 
 

...

 

Trust me, we know. But we are making major investments in improving all of this and we won't stop.

You really don't seem to get it.

 

Buying new testing hardware doesn't buy you accuracy. Integrity doesn't come from hardware. A one person team working from their bedroom could produce better data than you do by choosing to do their testing with the care and respect it deserves.

 

This is a management issue, and all you're saying is "but we're spending so much more money to buy equipment and engineers" - which is not where your problem is. This sounds exactly like you have no idea where the problem even is, so you are NOT investing on improving any of your problems.

 

You yourself said you'd rather save $100, or 500, than produce accurate data, while I'm sure your company will not be in any way affected by the loss of the $500 - which also would've been a direct result of your own choices leading up to that point anyway and could be considered a learning experience to avoid said costs in the future. Instead you chose to complain about a small startup's product, very publicly, very loudly, for not working as not intentioned, and save the $500.

 

This does not make it seem sincere that you are genuinely willing to spend money in the things that actually matter to produce the accuracy you claim to be committed to.

[suits]

20 minutes ago, CradleGames said:

Quite recently. There's quite a few in the last 2 months.
 

 

1. If you think his very small investment in the scope of laptop business is causing bias in this, I would like to live in whatever fantasy world you live in.

 

2. You didn't even source properly, Alex wrote this script, Alex, not Linus. 

 

3. He doesn't even mention framework in 90% of the laptop videos, all of which he doesn't write.

 

Linus is not in the right in this whole situation, but the framework "compromise" is actually nonsense and you just want to be upset because it's the thing to do.

[Herbzy]

5 hours ago, LinusTech said:

We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

Hey I just wanted to say that, while I thought some of GN's points were legitimate, I am still rooting for you guys. Of course I want LMG to succeed and make the best content possible. I also know you guys have a company to run and therefore mouths to feed. I feel like you guys have always had a strong consumer centric attitude. With that said I hope that you are able to take some constructive criticism and to take it in stride. I still plan on watching LTT and all the other channels. The drama will die down and I hope both LMG and GN come out on the other side better for it.

[Catsrules]

6 minutes ago, wanshow said:

If by chance someone reads this post in the chaos of this thread, could you please recommend a similar show to the WAN show?

Level1Techs does their own news show. But it is mostly raw news but with a world is doomed humor over the show. It certainly isn't for everyone and sometimes there is some spicy politics but I mostly watch for the world is doomed humor.

[MrBrightSyde]

Used to watch LTT until a couple years ago, moved onto GamersNexus and HardwareUnboxed.  My take is that Linus fucked up and is deflecting all blame from himself. What they did to the prototype from Billet Labs and the video they created for it is shameful. I remember why I stopped watching in the first place.

 

There is also the rushed scheduling for videos that allow for multiple mistakes to get by, including bad test results. They are a multi-million dollar company, and they are worried about $500? Must be running on thin margins if taking the little amount of extra time to correct their mistakes breaks the company budget.