Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[Corey Clak]

8 hours ago, schitzkrieg said:

If Steve just wanted to "help", he would have chosen a more private setting to tell these things to Linus/someone at LMG.

 

Edit: Not that I don't agree with a lot said here. Could have been handled better I guess. 

The way GN handled this, I feel like it was for attention. And to cause some type of drama. Sure mistakes were  made, but the way half of the keyboard warriors are handling it... its a bit over the top. (I watch both GN and LTT, this is my impartial opinion)

 

[Catsrules]

5 minutes ago, jitteryzeitgeist said:

I'll have "taken out of context" for $1,000, Alex

You need to look at what I was replying too for the context that is how fourms work. 

[RockerBug17]

4 minutes ago, wanshow said:

I've been a regular WAN show VOD listener for a couple of years now, infrequent viewer of other LMG content. If Linus sticks to his guns with his earlier statement in the thread, then I'm done with LMG content.

 

If by chance someone reads this post in the chaos of this thread, could you please recommend a similar show to the WAN show? I'd love to support a smaller creator while finding a substitute. The length, frequency, topic coverage in both breadth and depth was just about right for me. The others I know of are too deep on a single topic, or have other issues on accuracy, entertainment, etc. I enjoyed the commentary and banter of the WAN show at times, and only occasionally have been bothered by Linus' lack of maturity in which criticisms he'd respond to and how.

 

The earlier reply is completely missing the point. Maybe he's flustered, maybe he's out of touch, maybe it's deliberate as some kind of CYA, I don't really care. Compensating Bullet for what sounds like just the cost of the copper, without acknowledging the damage to the brand's reputation, interruption in working with partners, new production, or worst of all, leaking IP to competitors is... ridiculous. I'm not too familiar with Steve's previous work but flailing about journalistic integrity seems comically hypocritical given the nature of the allegations here in the first place.

 

I don't really expect LMG's content to change, if they are chasing what they perceive to be the algorithm's preference (and mass appeal), growth, higher frequency, lower quality, etc. is probably what you will get. There has been a subtone of this for a while, eg. WAN show is delayed because we need to help employees meet their KPIs of publishing a certain number of videos, we don't do niche content because it doesn't get enough views, and so forth. In some ways it feels similar to the toxic corporate direction of publicly traded companies, low effort react streamers, etc. that they've been critical of in the past; and the viewers will probably continue to vote with their wallets for more.

^^^^^^^^^^

That. That is everything wrong with this thread.

 

In regard to the water-block, if Billet and LMG are both happy about the arrangement they came to then what the hell are y'all complaining about? People are filling in the gaps of information with Marvel Phase Four writing.

 

Billet's happy; if they weren't they wouldn't have take the deal. LMG is making right on their mistake. Y'all just want to punch up to make yourselves feel better about only God knows what.

[bandainamcofan]

1 minute ago, sjwatt said:

It obviously doesn’t, it’s a symptom of the pace Linus has set for their releases. That pace is necessary to remain relevant on YouTube, relevancy on YouTube is necessary to affect change in the tech products industry. In this case: the ends justify the mistakes.

Needing to "remain relevant on youtube" is not a valid reason to intentionally review a product wrong. 

[Fire_Burns_22]

@LinusTech I think you guys are on the right track. EVERYONE makes mistakes, including Steve @GN, but I don't think you or Steve are unfairly biased in any way. I agree he should have reached out for a statement. That's even his own normal practice when he releases a critical review. But I'll also say that demonetizing his video was a more respectful way to be publicly critical. It would have been easy for him to use criticizing you as leverage to benefit himself. He didn't push any of his fancy testing processes or equipment he's been upgrading lately, he just aired his grievances. 

I think the biggest thing he pointed out that I would support is his position on how LMG edits video's after posting. I'm not saying that you guys should just pull anything that has an error and redo it, but I agree with his points that corrections do tend to be unintentionally hidden. Even if it's as simple as putting an edit in the title for the update. I don't know, maybe I'm naïve, but I trust you guys will find a better way going forward.

This would be a GREAT opportunity to get a video out from the new CEO explaining how LMG (not just Linus) is going to improve these processes going forward. Let this be the topic that he takes the public lead on. This is exactly the kind of improvements that you've explained as your reasoning for putting him at the helm instead of yourself. 

[rwerksman]

32 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

If you're new to the channel, I understand why you might not know this, but we are extremely committed to improving our accuracy to the point where we are building out a $10M+ facility jam-packed full of equipment and engineering know-how. It's taking time, and this kind of aggressive expansion has been a learning curve for us, but to frame our recent actions as "sacrificing accuracy" is misleading at best. 

We need to make a lot of process changes to get to the point where everything is water-tight. That's a big part of why we added our new CEO Terren to our leadership team, but once again... things take time. He's been full time on the job for less than a single quarter and he's getting up to speed on all the things we are doing right... and yes... all the things we are doing wrong.

 

Trust me, we know. But we are making major investments in improving all of this and we won't stop.

@LinusTech I've been watching forever. OG Floatplane sub when it was driven from the forum. I've managed multi-million dollar projects with many, many employees. I've never posted here prior. I can tell you, with absolutely certainty, that this is a crisis and that you are responding to it poorly. (with both the quoted post and all of the others prior)

 

Ideally, your crisis response would be:

• Make an effort to understand the issue - both from the initial report and from the community resonance.
• Quickly acknowledge that you've seen the issue, understand how important that it is, and will be responding very soon.
• Take time to craft your message and select the broadest medium for response. Eliminate emotions. Get others to participate.
• Apologize. Take responsibility. Make it clear that your taking steps to swiftly improve. Detail these steps.
• Invest in ways to correct the situation and monitor their impact so that issues don't reoccur. 

 

So far, there appears to be a limited understanding of the root of the issue, and denial about the breadth and depth of the impact. To be clear:

• There is an issue with factual accuracy in LMG videos.
• There is a situational consistency issue with LMG videos.
• There is a conflict of interest issue with LMG videos.
• There is a clear issue with how you all impacted the manufacturer of an LMG video subject product.

Beyond that, the response has been taking issue with the messenger (Steve at GN), general statements about how improvement is needed, attempted assertation that the impact to the video subject has been addressed, clearly emotional reasoning, promises of a future Labs solutions, and ignoring/rejecting the most common, community suggested path to correcting the situation (slowing down, taking time to get it right). I don't think that it's a stretch to stay many people would find these infuriating at worst and a nothing-burger at best.

 

 

I'm asking -- begging -- please stop, analyze, bring in others, and respond again -- correctly this time. Apologize. Take responsibility. Make it clear that your taking steps to swiftly improve. Do the damn thing and follow up on it.

 

Less Travis Kalanick. Less Deepwater Horizon.

More of what the best version of Linus would do.

[hysteresis]

3 minutes ago, Drazil100 said:

While I don't think it came across very well, and I would definitely be interested in hearing what Billet has too say about this, I think the point is more to say "We can't reverse time to undo selling the block, we are doing whatever we can to make them happy". Linus has a bad habit of phrasing things poorly, but until I hear what Billet has to say about this, if they are happy, then I am happy.

I am move concerned about him throwing Steve under the bus for not contacting him first before making this video.

Because it sounds like linus is trying to buy his way out of accepting responsibility? I'd like to hear billet's side too ... but if they make a statement in the future how do we know it's not from a "we need to say what linus wants us to say or else he won't pay us" position? 

[Vidyagoblin]

The billet labs thing was just a symptom of the sloppy production and lack of care that Steve was pointing out. People are treating it like it's a separate part of the video but in reality it was just the most recent most extreme example of LTT's misplaced priorities when evaluating hardware.

 

The response to this really needs to be more than a "we know we make mistakes and we're still new and figuring out things it'll get better soon". It honestly needs to be an apology and a list of changes that will be made to ensure that inaccurate information and sloppy testing procedures stop happening. I know these things don't happen in a few hours but there should be something like this presented in the next few days.

 

Also I've always hated the "this is an unboxing/first look it's not a review" excuse that youtuber's give. If you're evaluating a product on camera for your audience it is for all intents and purposes a review. Especially if you recommend whether to purchase or not in that video.

[RandomDude843]

I can imagine billet labs shouting RTFM when they used the wrong card on the block review

 

Linus on the other hand is following the trust me bro mantra and just doing what he thinks is right

[Blademaster91]

27 minutes ago, suits said:

That's a bad take. Having chunk change in the grand scheme of these things is not going to color coverage, not to mention he already doesn't do laptop reviews anyway, Alex does....

 

GN had good points but this was a self-righteous bad take.

I disagree, Linus has investment in Framework as a company, it doesn't matter if its LMG or his personal investment, having the investment still creates a conflict of interest with laptop reviews. IMO someone else needs to write the scripts and do videos on laptops.

21 minutes ago, Drazil100 said:

Many people are. I still have faith that LMG will improve.

There isn't anything you can do to stop the internet from being vindictive right now, any attempts to defend him will just come across like you are sucking up (likely even to LMG themselves). Everyone else is in agreement that they messed up. GN thinks they messed up, the community thinks they messed up, and they think they have messed up.

Give them the chance to improve and prove themselves and THAT will be the time to defend.

As much as I'd like to see LMG improve, maybe i'm too being too cynical or negative on this, but with the statement Linus made, and refusing to publicly discuss the things GN highlighted, or the Billet block, it seems like he's trying brush the problem away, yet calls GN's video on this bad ethics. 

Linus and LMG as a company have the reputation for saying he cares about what the audience says, but the content quality has been going down hill for years, and the amount of errors in videos continues to be unacceptable given they have a testing lab.

[Fullmental]

2 hours ago, LinusTech said:

we are extremely committed to improving our accuracy to the point where we are building out a $10M+ facility jam-packed full of equipment and engineering know-how. It's taking time, and this kind of aggressive expansion has been a learning curve for us, but to frame our recent actions as "sacrificing accuracy" is misleading at best. 

Linus, I don't know how else to say this, but all the money and equipment in the world doesn't fix a methodology problem if it's driven by a chaotic workflow. It's like that kid with a 20 subscriber channel on youtube that thinks buying a 4K camera will suddenly make their content more engaging for viewers. They aren't going to get a thousand views or a better script overnight just because they upgraded their camera - even if it's a good idea for the channel eventually - and you're not going to have a more accurate review just because you upgrade your testing equipment. In fact, the opposite is likely to happen because the process will be brand new, again. You have to get the process down with what you have before you scale up. Right now, your staff are practically begging for more time to put out better quality work, and it's always going to be that way until you or the team actually stop and address the accuracy issues with what you have now, instead of what you want to have later. It's a scary proposition, but if you scale back the video release schedule even a little bit, you can block time with the team to address this more effectively. Don't forget your content is for the viewers, not the algorithm. Your headstrong, push through no matter what attitude has gotten you far in building this channel, but it's not the solution to this specific problem.

[Zodiark1593]

8 minutes ago, suits said:

1. If you think his very small investment in the scope of laptop business is causing bias in this, I would like to live in whatever fantasy world you live in.

 

2. You didn't even source properly, Alex wrote this script, Alex, not Linus. 

 

3. He doesn't even mention framework in 90% of the laptop videos, all of which he doesn't write.

 

Linus is not in the right in this whole situation, but the framework "compromise" is actually nonsense and you just want to be upset because it's the thing to do.

There is a bit of a harsh truth to face, that was told by a lawyer (source: Steve Letho). There does not have to be actual impropriety, to have the appearance of impropriety, and the appearance matters a lot, potentially more so than the facts. 
 

I don’t have a horse in this particular stretch of race, but figured I’d put in an FYI. 

[TheArchive2039]

6 hours ago, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

Hi Linus, I do doubt you will be reading this, but on the off chance you do, I would just like to give a brief history on my viewing of your content, and my take on everything.

 

I've been a massive fan of yours since the scrapyard wars days, always watching the newest video in full, most of the time within the hour it came out. I've had great respect for you, and a great respect for your team. You are the reason I went AMD when I built my first gaming PC, and are the reason my passion for tech products is so fiery.

 

With all that said, this response has left me incredibly dissapointed, and honestly considering a pause on watching your content until further notice.

 

A member of your team attacked gamers nexus's practices personally, and you further went on to validate the attack. This is just not right in my humble opinion.

 

The Billet Labs situation is another thing I can not forgive. You knew going into the making of that video that the GPU you were using was not rated to fit on the block they sent you, and went ahead with testing anyways, and then never sent back the sample, and instead auctioned it off bidder. Whether you knew or did not know that billet labs didn't want you to sell it is besides the point, because by your own admission, nobody checked. Offering to pay the cost of the prototype is the right thing to do, but doesn't make things right, as the company stated to Gamers Nexus that because of this, production will be set back by potentially years as you had the only perfect prototype. 

 

Retesting the block? On what card? Where can we see this testing, because if you are unable to show that you actually retested the card, then really I can't believe in good faith that you did so, or even did it properly.

 

As for your GPU testing, sloppy simply is not acceptable when you are marketing (cause that is really what a review is, marketing a product, and it's flaws) GPU's that cost as much as they do. Gamers Nexus pointed out several flaws and inaccuracies in your results, and yet you have chosen to address none of them, instead making a blanket statement that just makes Stephen look bad.

 

I am massive fans of both of you, but until measurable change comes out of this, I simply can not trust you. 

[blitzduck]

Steve's video drives home the fact the LMG staff need more time to put together the quality of videos people have come to expect. Basically all of the things called out here could've been avoided with more attention to detail, which simply cannot be given for every video with their current release schedules across all their channels.

[Mattumanu]

5 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Billet sent us a quote. I don't know or care how they arrived at the value. If they're good, I'm good.

As for what steps we're taking, you're talking about an outlier issue that has happened once in 10+ years of operation. There won't be a new SOP to ensure we don't accidentally auction stuff. We just need to tighten up some documentation.

I seem to remember someone saying the other day on a popular podcast that they don't really care what their users think and that it doesn't really affect them. Bet it does now.

 

I didn't want to watch GNs video initially because I thought that it was merely youtube drama. But each example he gave slowly convinced me he had a point and that the situation at LTT is getting worse rather than better. Seriously, did we just reach LTT's "re-roll" moment?

 

So for context, this all started setting off my BS detector back when the "trust me bro" controversy started. I stopped trusting the company and started watching WAN show specifically because I thought I was eventually going to witness a collapse on par with Artesean Builds at LTT. I'm serious, I've been watching a fire grow over time into what it is now. You, Linus, might think it's a minor thing, but it's clearly not.

[PressleyPress]

11 minutes ago, sjwatt said:

It obviously doesn’t, it’s a symptom of the pace Linus has set for their releases. That pace is necessary to remain relevant on YouTube, relevancy on YouTube is necessary to affect change in the tech products industry. In this case: the ends justify the mistakes.

It obviously doesn’t, it’s a symptom of the pace Linus has set for their releases. That pace is necessary to remain relevant on YouTube, relevancy on YouTube is necessary to affect change in the tech products industry. To make money. In this case: the ends justify the mistakes.

 

There, fixed it for ya. The YouTube algorithm pushes channels to a crazy pace. I can only imagine the pace required to maintain a channel of 5M subs, and pay for 100 salaries.

[monkeywraith]

5 hours ago, LinusTech said:

I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

I continue to like and support both LTT and GN, and have for a long while. 'Team Media' sounds like not a thing, or pretty weird, but Steve is clearly moving forward in good faith with the community already and has never stopped. Nobody on either side wants drama, just for everyone to do their best.

 

This is a good and necessary video, highlighting needed improvements, while being as objective and impersonal as Steve could be. I suspect not contacting LTT for comment first was a smart choice to avoid unintentional influence or letting things get personal. You already were working on improvements, but this was important to call attention to specific inexcusable items. This is valuable feedback for LTT, the lab cannot pay off unless the results are reliable and trusted.

 

I am still about to buy an LTT water bottle and get an awesome colorful pin with it, and I love my GN coasters!

[otfkyfyrjdej]

I haven't posted in a grand old while, but I thoroughly agree that less is more in terms of content. I have absolutely no idea of the financial benefit of upload frequency, but being so deadline focused definitely has a showing effect on upload quality. But I guess this is yet another example of a company turning into a corporation.

[Brodamas]

6 hours ago, bizzehdee said:

 

contacting linus personally, and resolving it quietly. is the exact opposite of "proper journalistic practices", what an absolute narcasistic arrogant buffoon

While yes handling it behind close doors would by all means be the opposite of proper journalistic practices, reaching out to him for a statement would be the proper way. I’m sure you’ve seen it before “we reached out to [company name] for a statement/comment and they [had said “insert comment/statement] or [with no response as of filming/writing]”

Edited August 15, 2023 by Brodamas
Incomplete thoughts

[throwawayManMode]

@LinusTech Can you please confirm that you yourself watched the entire video and didn't just read the comments or have someone summarize the video for you?

[grethro]

GN is definitely punching up. This is like your home town newspaper critiquing the NYTimes. There might be some valid points (the GPU cooler, and the editing corrections into videos for mistakes during filming for example...) but it's also entirely self serving for them 

 

I appreciate GN trying to keep LTT honest. Even in the last WAN show they said competition creates better content for everyone. But this also feels more personal.

 

Steve and Linus obviously, personally, had a falling out after the backpack scenario. GN is obviously not reaching out to LTT for comment before they publish stories. And that's not good journalism either. GN will fly across the world to interview tech companies, but he can't ask someone he's known for years some hard questions? Doesn't sit right with me. Steve's not wrong, but he's not handling it right.

 

I hope that if this is brought up at all on the WAN show it's that they will try to do better, and that they thank GN for the feedback, and ask that in the future they would appreciate a chance to respond to the story. Then I hope Linus invites Steve to LTX next year and that they settle their differences with a game of Halo(or something). The tech community doesn't benefit from this type of drama, and I hope that we as an audience can work through it instead of picking sides.

 

Whether or not I actually think that will happen or not remains to be seen.

[VeryScary]

15 minutes ago, jitteryzeitgeist said:

You said it was a joke video specifically because 2 people who didn't know what they were doing were put in charge of it.  That's what LTT does when ITS TIME FOR WACKY HIJINKS

 

The company did NOT say it should work.  They said THEY HADN'T TESTED IT.  You don't need to lie for Linus, he's a big boy.

I definitely did not say that. I said the video wasn't meant as a review. I said it was a video to show something that was interesting. LTT doesn't only post reviews. Does that mean every video they make that isn't a review is a joke video? 

 

Did you even watch the video or are you just going with what other people say. They say in the video (at 19:05) that they company said it should work. 

 

[Blademaster91]

22 minutes ago, wanshow said:

If by chance someone reads this post in the chaos of this thread, could you please recommend a similar show to the WAN show?

I would also recommend Level1Techs, and if you like Jayztwocents videos he does a show called RTFM on Fridays.

[Mr. Rabbit]

Should @LinusTech even be the one responding to this? Isn't the new CEO working already?
Because this seems the right time for someone with the right experience to come out, take the criticism as that, and not as an attack, as Linus is doing.
And I do agree that Steve should've contacted them for comment, it would be the least he could've done, as he has done the same before on countless videos.

 

As for the content...yikes.
The quality has been going down lately, at an alarming rate.
It's still entertaining, but even with them still fine tuning the Lab results, it's getting inexcusable.

 

They need to slow down for a few weeks (as much as it pains them), correct the issues, and come back swinging, or it will not go well for LTT in the long term.

The cracks are showing, and it doesn't look good.

[hysteresis]

1 minute ago, PressleyPress said:

It obviously doesn’t, it’s a symptom of the pace Linus has set for their releases. That pace is necessary to remain relevant on YouTube, relevancy on YouTube is necessary to affect change in the tech products industry. To make money. In this case: the ends justify the mistakes.

 

There, fixed it for ya. The YouTube algorithm pushes channels to a crazy pace. I can only imagine the pace required to maintain a channel of 5M subs, and pay for 100 salaries.

Size of channel doesn't excuse bad content. If they're serious about doing hardware reviews, why not make funny videos until they get a review process and QA check system working? It's not like they have to keep making reviews because they don't do anything else ... they can pump out "I found cheap pc parts!" and "linus installs something at home" and "linus makes a cpu cooler out of car parts" and whatever for a while and honestly I don't think their viewership would decline because people looking for serious gritty tech content are already not their viewerbase.