Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[atxcyclist]

5 minutes ago, bandainamcofan said:

So you have no evidence that he considers this a standard, you have convinced yourself of it being a standard instead of a thing he actually has every right to chose to do or not do at will per story (which lines up with journalism standards) and ascribe malice to his motives because of it.

I've done no such thing. I don't believe you have any interest in having a discussion, and I will not be engaging with you further. Have a lovely day.

You haven't engaged with me at all, you've repeated the same easily-disproven statement over and over. If you watched GN's videos you could see this all for yourself.

 

You not badgering me with the same near copy-paste over and over, is actually fantastic. 

 

 

[Erasure90]

Luke and Wendel should join and create their own Channel/Venture

If there is a fallout with the company, I think Luke and Wendel from Level1 Techs would be an awesome combination. Geek out on hardware, networking and development niche. 

[Loopers]

2 minutes ago, bandainamcofan said:

So you have no evidence that he considers this a standard, you have convinced yourself of it being a standard instead of a thing he actually has every right to chose to do or not do at will per story (which lines up with journalism standards) and ascribe malice to his motives because of it.

I've done no such thing. I don't believe you have any interest in having a discussion, and I will not be engaging with you further. Have a lovely day.

You have 96 posts as a top poster in this 271 post thread defending steve for not reaching out for comment when had they, would have lessened the impact on a fellow creator as he has the responsibility himself to enter his topic with the most up to date information and anything less makes him lazy just as he called LMG.

I cheered on GN video. It was needed, but as further facts came out, it was obvious to keep with the standard practice of reporting something this serious, he should have gone in with all the facts, not just those he chose to use. It isn't a great look for GN in this case and that would have been alleviated by contacting for comment. /the end.

[Lurker_Letum]

2 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I feel like the people that are obsessed with wanting to discredit GN over contacting them first are people that don't even watch GN's videos anyway, because there are times where he doesn't ask a company before he does a review pointing out the faults in those products and bad decisions the company made. The prebuilt PC's from companies like Alienware is an example, Steve even buys those himself to avoid any bias with sponsorships, LMG is a company, not your friend, and I don't see why LMG needs to be exempt from fair criticism.

LMG fucked up and it's been discussed and most people agree they fucked up. They need to do better and the video today shows a shift in gear. Now the wait is to see if they return with actual changes or if they fall back into the same shit. I'm honestly not holding my breath since I see them as a corporation these days and I never give corps the benefit of the doubt. Also waiting to hear about the Madison investigation. I do wish they had names the third party HR group so we would be able to identify if they are reliable but I also understand if they want to hold off on that until after the report is ready. I honestly had hoped for Yvonne to take over the 50% share from Linus during the apology video as a show of Linus taking a bigger step back but unfortunately that didn't happen. I do hope Linus thinks real hard about how he's going to act on the WAN show and doesn't dig the hole deeper.

 

All in all not holding my breath for any change but hope some change happens. We will see how the WAN show goes if it goes.

 

As for GN there seems to be many people that believe they can do no wrong so that's annoying.  GN will never improve if they don't listen to criticism and from what I've seen they do listen to it for hardware. However with the journalism Steve seems to believe he can't do anything wrong with it and that's frustrating. Especially since I know he is a smart guy and is able to understand that he isn't perfect. So my only conclusions I can pull from this is that he is being willfully negligent which casts a shadow on all his work or he actually doesn't understand journalistic ethics would is seriously concerning. I've also never agreed with him not asking for comments about the prebuilds but he has a pattern of that. Just like he has a pattern of asking for comments when it is not secret shopper related. This drama falls squarely into the not secret shopper related content therefore his pattern is asking for comment which he deviated from.

[Lurker_Letum]

9 minutes ago, bandainamcofan said:

So you have no evidence that he considers this a standard, you have convinced yourself of it being a standard instead of a thing he actually has every right to chose to do or not do at will per story (which lines up with journalism standards) and ascribe malice to his motives because of it.

Also as per code of journalistic ethics Diligently seek subjects of news coverage to allow them to respond to criticism or allegations of wrongdoing. This has been explained to you.

[bandainamcofan]

3 minutes ago, Loopers said:

would have lessened the impact on a fellow creator

That would have been an ethical violation by showing preferential treatment to LMG. GN committed no ethical violation. 

[Drazil100]

16 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

'obsessed', yeah, pointing-out a significant divergence in procedure is not that. The Noah Katz guy directly stole tens of thousands of dollars from customers and still got contacted. There's no excuse for Steve to give Noah Katz and his company a better shake than LMG.

It is not about whether it is journalism or not. LMG reports on stuff all the time on wan without reaching out and we still consider WAN news. What we are discussing right now is a choice. LMG reaches out to companies all the time when they have a close working relationship, and they hardly ever reach out for companies they don't. Steve chose not to be friendly about this and I support him in doing so.

Regardless of what you think of Steve or what you think his motives were for doing this, his action resulted in MULTIPLE serious problems being brought to the attention of the community. Had he reached out Linus would have had time to prepare and we wouldn't have seen his raw and frankly horrible reaction to this, we wouldn't have found out about the discrepancy in the timeline of them reaching out to Billet Labs, and for all we know Madison may never have felt comfortable speaking out.

 

Whatever Steve's motives were, he assessed the situation, and he made a move that ultimately benefits all of us as a whole. I want to see LMG do better because they ARE a massive inspiration to me but they can't do better if the issues they have hidden in their closet are this serious.

Linus has proven to be a survivor. They will get through this. But this needed to happen for them to grow. 

 

Edit:
I would like to add that because of this we got Terren on camera addressing the community which I feel they have needed to do for a long time. For Linus to hand over his CEO responsibilities properly, Terren needs to speak for himself. We don't need to see him all the time... but we need to see him at least a little.

[Blademaster91]

16 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

'obsessed', yeah, pointing-out a significant divergence in procedure is not that. The Noah Katz guy directly stole tens of thousands of dollars from customers and still got contacted. There's no excuse for Steve to give Noah Katz and his company a better shake than LMG.

Yeah obsessed because people are only focusing on whether he should've contacted LMG first, when we don't know if GN tried to contact LMG or Linus through an email or not, and given that LMG ignored Billet lab's request to send back the water block and Linus has a history of taking things too personally we don't know if they ignored GN on asking about the obvious things pointed out in their video.

As for the whole Artestian builds thing, that was a journalistic investigation, and they wanted to get input from Noah Katz, there isn't anything investigative that would require input from LMG as all the things in GN's video are from publicly listed videos, except for the Billet labs thing but i respect GN for reporting on that as we wouldn't have heard of Billet labs otherwise and they wouldn't have been compensated for the cost of the water block.

And since you keep repeating and insisting GN only did it for "drama" even if GN did ask first you'd probably still say GN did it for "drama" and to "hate" on LMG and say that people are only haters for not defending LMG on this. I dobut you've ever watched any of GN's content as he doesn't always ask a company first and he doesn't have to.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, JustSomeDudeOnAForum said:

So what should Steve do? Just let the inaccuracies slide cause he has a personal connection to Linus? Fuck that.

To be clear, Steve had a number of options. Let's consider them:

 

1>  Call Linus or anyone in the LTT team and say "Hey look you have inaccuracies on x, y and z"

2> Make a video about it "LTT messed up on x,y and z Title it correctly and pull some views in"

3> Call Linus on the WAN show and go "Hey man while you are on your show maybe address the following" Get some positive cloud.

4> Contact the new CEO and say "We want an interview with you because we want to know what are you going to do about this"

 

Any of the above choices would have made good content, help the industry at large and create goodwill between channels. Everyone is going to be afraid of GN and Everyone is going to do to GN what they did to LTT because GN created the standard for it. How is this going to help anyone?

 

What did Steve do? Destroy a friendship, Try to sink a channel by creating and driving the narrative while claiming they are the good guys so that they can mud sling.

 

Now let's consider the Journalism aspects:

1 > Duediligance

2 > Fact Checking

3 > Fair Reporting

 

In the Noah Katz story, Steve reached out. In the LTT story, Steve didn't reach out and because he was driving the narrative and he was, he justified it. It doesn't matter how you look at it, Steve didn't want to give Linus any chance to correct their mistakes. He wanted a dirty story because he needs the views. Anyone that can access Google knows GN is not doing well. They are not doing badly but they are not doing well. GN needed the cloud they had to be in control of the narrative. That is not Journalism. Is LTT innocent? No. Was GN correct in their actions? No. GN didn't follow proper Journalism practices.

 

So who is right and who is wrong? LTT did do the following in that they knew they need better leadership. They took the steps. GN needed cloud they took the steps to get it. Now you decide who did it the right way and who did it the wrong way. The biggest takeaway here is don't let people think for you.

 

One does not idolize. One does not take sides. You make a decision based on facts. LTT have its problems so does GN. It is up to us however to think outside the box and do our own research when it comes to buying anything at all. Not just PC hardware. The takeaway here is this THINK FOR YOURSELF. 

 

At the end of the day, GN weaponized cancel culture and aimed it at his friends who he knew intimately and knew exactly where to hit. As I explained above, GN had options. GN had access. Why did GN create this type of narrative? What was their intention? Why did they weaponize cancel culture? Analyze the situation for yourself see how it affected each channel individually and make your own conclusion.

 

Sorry for the wall of text but really there is no real way to summarize this adequately. 

 

 

[Loopers]

1 hour ago, bandainamcofan said:

That would have been an ethical violation by showing preferential treatment to LMG. GN committed no ethical violation. 

Bud, we get it. You'll defend Steve through thick and thin. Steve did not afford Linus the same respect he gave each other report he's done and he's done an amazing job with those. You're trying desperately to make sure it's known and as I've aptly pointed out; you're sadly listed as a top poster in this thread defending Steve and only this thread.

 

Both you and I can be right you know. You keep repeating yourself while dismissing the fact he should have. It's a common courtesy and all Steve did was make himself look lazy by going in without all the facts in hand in order to spin a narrative that was objectively incorrect when all it took was a phone call or an email to get the other side.

If you're going to defend Steve as valiantly as you have, you should also expect his reporting to be more accurate to the best of his ability and not the best you're willing to accept even if it can harm another.

[Loopers]

6 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

when we don't know if GN tried to contact LMG or Linus through an email or not

See pinned response at the top of the thread from @LinusTech

[Lurker_Letum]

2 minutes ago, Drazil100 said:

It is not about whether it is journalism or not. LMG reports on stuff all the time on wan without reaching out and we still consider WAN news. What we are discussing right now is a choice. LMG reaches out to companies all the time when they have a close working relationship, and they hardly ever reach out for companies they don't. Steve chose not to be friendly about this and I support him in doing so.

Regardless of what you think of Steve or what you think his motives were for doing this, his action resulted in MULTIPLE serious problems being brought to the attention of the community. Had he reached out Linus would have had time to prepare and we wouldn't have seen his raw and frankly horrible reaction to this, we wouldn't have found out about the discrepancy in the timeline of them reaching out to Billet Labs, and for all we know Madison may never have felt comfortable speaking out.

 

Whatever Steve's motives were, he assessed the situation, and he made a move that ultimately benefits all of us as a whole. I want to see LMG do better because they ARE a massive inspiration to me but they can't do better if the issues they have hidden in their closet are this serious.

Linus has proven to be a survivor. They will get through this. But this needed to happen for them to grow. 

You have both LMG and GN doing the same mistake in different ways. LMG is acting like they are an amazing source of detailed hardware statistics with the lab however the constant errors as showcased in the GN video goes against that. LMG needed this wakeup call and I do hope when they come back the reduce there upload schedule and actually focus on quality instead of quantity. It's going to take at least 2 quarters of consistent, high quality results before I trust them again. They lost much of my trust during the trust me bro shit and they just keep digging deeper. But at least they are finally showing that they are making a change. Lets hope its not just all theater play.

 

GN is claiming to be a hub for Journalism in the gaming community however there Journalism has not been up to the standards of what is expected of some one claiming to be a Journalist. Don't get me wrong. The video they did was absolutely needed and I hope they follow up the video if more information comes to play. However if they are going to continue down this path they need to follow basic Journalistic ethical guidelines or they can't be trusted. 

 

All in all I hope both improve for the better so that the community can benefit from LMG bringing us accurate and detailed hardware statistics and GN can keep big companies in the community in check and help protect consumers. I really do hope they both succeed in there goals and we can move past all this by next January.

[Lurker_Letum]

7 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Yeah obsessed because people are only focusing on whether he should've contacted LMG first, when we don't know if GN tried to contact LMG or Linus through an email or not, and given that LMG ignored Billet lab's request to send back the water block and Linus has a history of taking things too personally we don't know if they ignored GN on asking about the obvious things pointed out in their video.

As for the whole Artestian builds thing, that was a journalistic investigation, and they wanted to get input from Noah Katz, there isn't anything investigative that would require input from LMG as all the things in GN's video are from publicly listed videos, except for the Billet labs thing but i respect GN for reporting on that as we wouldn't have heard of Billet labs otherwise and they wouldn't have been compensated for the cost of the water block.

And since you keep repeating and insisting GN only did it for "drama" even if GN did ask first you'd probably still say GN did it for "drama" and to "hate" on LMG and say that people are only haters for not defending LMG on this. I dobut you've ever watched any of GN's content as he doesn't always ask a company first and he doesn't have to.

GN explicitly stated they did not try to contact LMG first so we do know that.

[atxcyclist]

3 minutes ago, Drazil100 said:

It is not about whether it is journalism or not. LMG reports on stuff all the time on wan without reaching out and we still consider WAN news. What we are discussing right now is a choice. LMG reaches out to companies all the time when they have a close working relationship, and they hardly ever reach out for companies they don't. Steve chose not to be friendly about this and I support him in doing so.

Regardless of what you think of Steve or what you think his motives were for doing this, his action resulted in MULTIPLE serious problems being brought to the attention of the community. Had he reached out Linus would have had time to prepare and we wouldn't have seen his raw and frankly horrible reaction to this, we wouldn't have found out about the discrepancy in the timeline of them reaching out to Billet Labs, and for all we know Madison may never have felt comfortable speaking out.

 

Whatever Steve's motives were, he assessed the situation, and he made a move that ultimately benefits all of us as a whole. I want to see LMG do better because they ARE a massive inspiration to me but they can't do better if the issues they have hidden in their closet are this serious.

Linus has proven to be a survivor. They will get through this. But this needed to happen for them to grow. 

Its not about being "friendly", Steve set his own standard and abandoned it. 

 

And as I've said in here multiple times, Steve reaching-out and getting info doesn't stop him from putting out the same video. He wouldn't have to fumble and hitch when he defends going back on his process. I guess if people are glad a company of 100+ people getting blindsided and dragged directly into drama, many of whom are not involved in or responsible for, then that tells a lot about those people and their morality. Management and those associated are not the only group of people that has to contend with this type of event.

[BorkBorkBork]

I’m just gonna say it and accept the mobbing that will follow - as a PR professional for a living and all things considered, LMG is actually handling this a lot better than most are willing to give credit for. 

 

The apology video was necessary but well done, showing sincerity while keeping morale up (the jokes, even if some folks find them out of place, were actually probably necessary to keep some degree of genuine perspective - the auction was bad, but at the end of the day basically an unfortunate clerical error(s) that they are working to resolve, not a malicious plot to do evil). It outlined a meaningful course of action, explained in far greater detail than was necessary the internal workings of the problem, and offered a slate of solutions very much in line with the criticisms leveled by both GN and the community.

 

The Madison situation is being handled carefully and gracefully with transparency and as much drive for resolution as can be expected from a corporation with 100s of real people’s livelihoods also on the line for this. Justice for those impacted does not have to mean a total collapse of the company or the automatic purge of every executive, which many here are calling for. 
 

It is not at all an excuse for bad behavior, but LMG being an online media company holds them to uniquely different pressures than others. Think of how many allegations and cases and situations of impropriety occur at any given large company - how many of their CEOs and executive teams ever have to face a rabid audience of both sincere supporters and vicious trolls in a public forum? How many times has a CEO ever owned up and said “we did wrong, here’s our plan” without being legally forced to by a judge?
 

You don’t have to like their response or might feel it’s “canned corpo speak” or whatever, but as someone who has handled all this up-close for years and seen what real damage could be done by insincerity or actual malice, LMG is doing it as well as can be reasonably and fairly expected of them in handling this. Reasonable people have to be willing to show grace else no one would ever improve or strive to be better. 

[Drazil100]

2 minutes ago, Lurker_Letum said:

GN is claiming to be a hub for Journalism in the gaming community however there Journalism has not been up to the standards of what is expected of some one claiming to be a Journalist. Don't get me wrong. The video they did was absolutely needed and I hope they follow up the video if more information comes to play. However if they are going to continue down this path they need to follow basic Journalistic ethical guidelines or they can't be trusted. 

I don't trust Steve to be perfectly clear. He has a clear bias in that Labs is encroaching on his space of being a source of data. That said I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to reach out and say "Hey I am about to shit all over your company" before doing so. He is absolutely right that doing so would have given them time to prepare and time to spin the story which ultimately could have ended much worse for him. 

I don't disagree that Steve was playing dirty... I don't think he should have played it clean though.

[bandainamcofan]

2 minutes ago, 3m3m said:

At the end of the day, GN weaponized cancel culture and aimed it at his friends who he knew intimately and knew exactly where to hit.

Hyperbolic nonsense. Being held accountable for mistakes is not "cancel culture." 

5 minutes ago, Loopers said:

dismissing the fact he should have

There is no "fact" that he should have done. There is just the opinion that he should have.

[atxcyclist]

18 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Yeah obsessed because people are only focusing on whether he should've contacted LMG first, when we don't know if GN tried to contact LMG or Linus through an email or not, and given that LMG ignored Billet lab's request to send back the water block and Linus has a history of taking things too personally we don't know if they ignored GN on asking about the obvious things pointed out in their video.

As for the whole Artestian builds thing, that was a journalistic investigation, and they wanted to get input from Noah Katz, there isn't anything investigative that would require input from LMG as all the things in GN's video are from publicly listed videos, except for the Billet labs thing but i respect GN for reporting on that as we wouldn't have heard of Billet labs otherwise and they wouldn't have been compensated for the cost of the water block.

And since you keep repeating and insisting GN only did it for "drama" even if GN did ask first you'd probably still say GN did it for "drama" and to "hate" on LMG and say that people are only haters for not defending LMG on this. I dobut you've ever watched any of GN's content as he doesn't always ask a company first and he doesn't have to.

Steve very clearly said he didn't make any attempt to contact them, he said that in the video. He then tried to defend this while looking shook, as if he himself is not convinced of his actions. Given this information, I'm not convinced he did it for anything but knowing he'd get a response from LMG, and then GN/Steve couldn't be as overly-aggressive, and release a 45-minute-long flame-fest on an unsuspecting company he has direct contact with.

 

Steve could have brought the same things to light after contacting LMG, he wouldn't be under any sort of expectation/requirement to change his mind. He would however potentially have more information, and could pat himself on the back again by continuing his own process and contacting people, like he has in the past. 

[Loopers]

Just now, bandainamcofan said:

Hyperbolic nonsense. Being held accountable for mistakes is not "cancel culture." 

There is no "fact" that he should have done. There is just the opinion that he should have.

I have to believe you're trolling now. Steve did not post an opinion piece. jfc... touch grass, bud.

[Lurker_Letum]

1 minute ago, Drazil100 said:

I don't trust Steve to be perfectly clear. He has a clear bias in that Labs is encroaching on his space of being a source of data. That said I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to reach out and say "Hey I am about to shit all over your company" before doing so. He is absolutely right that doing so would have given them time to prepare and time to spin the story which ultimately could have ended much worse for him. 

I don't disagree that Steve was playing dirty... I don't think he should have played it clean though.

A common tactic used in journalism when there is worry about a company spinning the narrative but the journalist still wants both sides of the story to appear unbiased is to give a very short window of time and send emails to all known sources within a company to ensure the company has a chance to respond. Some still consider this unethical and it is questionable but it's still better then no comment. A timeframe example of this tactic could be 12 hours, 6 hours, 4 hours, ect. Steve claims to be a Journalist so he should know this option is available. Steve had options. But chose the worst one. I hope privately he is taking the criticism seriously and improves.

 

 

[bandainamcofan]

Just now, Loopers said:

Steve did not post an opinion piece.

There never was an ethical obligation to approach for comment. You are simply wrong in saying that there is.

[Blademaster91]

2 minutes ago, Drazil100 said:

He has a clear bias in that Labs is encroaching on his space of being a source of data.

I don't see that, I think the concern is LMG is going to use their labs so they can sound like a better source of data than anyone else because they're throwing tons of money at a lab and testing equpiment, but not taking the time to make sure the data is as a accurate as possible. If LMG puts up data that isn't accurate people will repeat misinformation then assume other channels like GN is wrong because they don't have a massive testing lab.

10 minutes ago, Lurker_Letum said:

GN explicitly stated they did not try to contact LMG first so we do know that.

I went through the GN video again, and he didn't, but IMO that still wouldn't have changed anything, I don't think Steve had to be nice about it.

[Dragonliger]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:01 AM, LinusTechLies said:

I don't think you understand what opinion means here. Me calling you a poopy head is a opinion. What Steve presented was cold hard facts backed up with actually evidence. Thats not a opinion.

I mean, I can't say "their facts are correct" they are facts so they are by definition correct. But they ALSO presented opinions. and that's what I wrote about. No need to go aggro on me I am not attacking you, chill a bit.

[Lurker_Letum]

Just now, bandainamcofan said:

There never was an ethical obligation to approach for comment. You are simply wrong in saying that there is.

As per code of journalistic ethics Diligently seek subjects of news coverage to allow them to respond to criticism or allegations of wrongdoing. This has been explained to you.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Lurker_Letum
Wrong reply

[Loopers]

3 minutes ago, bandainamcofan said:

There never was an ethical obligation to approach for comment. You are simply wrong in saying that there is.

That has absolutely nothing to do in regards to my last response to you Thank you for confirming you're trolling.