Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[Battlenat0r]

2 minutes ago, Thermite said:

I'll wait until I see full video response from Linus. Too early to tell what is really true.

I mean Linus has already made his comments here.. so.... he has given a full response..

[saintlouisbagels]

2 minutes ago, bobbybobjoebob said:

Normally I would agree, but in this case their relationship prior seemed to at least be acquaintances, though I could be wrong. My point more or less was yeah I understand that LMG is a fairly large corporation now, but that doesn't justify someone who's essentially a colleague just airing out the dirty laundry without discussing it with him first. I still believe this stuff needs to be made public, but it needs to be done in a respectful manner towards one another after private discussions. This is how you prevent fanboys from going berserk on BOTH sides, like we're seeing now. 

Dirty laundry would imply these are things discussed in private.

Aside from the Billet Labs stuff, everything LTT has done is fair game. It's all public. GN just happens to be the one who cares enough to compile it all together into a cohesive video.

[eece_ret]

1 minute ago, miagisan said:

Personally, I think GN had every right to post his findings, and he came with receipts.   LTT videos have been going down hill, and I think he is just attempting to release too much too quickly.  

 

His response was also very childish.  He should have had a more thought out response, sucked it up, and admitted he/LMG made some mistakes.   The Internet I think as a whole, would have had some short term anger and accepted it. 

 

I don't fault Steve at all.   Business is business, and he laid all his facts out, nothing up to misinterpretation.  

By in large part I agree with this.  However I think if Steve was trying to be as above board as he espouses and given the implications he has attached to the Billet Labs portion, a request for comment prior to go live would at least more align with the journalistic standards he purports to hold himself too.  If not by letter then in spirit, call it what you wish.  But at least provide an avenue to obtain the other side of the situation before sending it.

[Webber_]

On 8/14/2023 at 10:30 PM, Moortu said:

Not returning the Billet waterblock and auctioning it.

So many people are calling it theft for some reason.

While occams razor would probably point to a HUGE fuckup but not intentional.

 

It's incredibly stupid and they need to make amends.

But think it's to early to get the pitchforks out.

 

I did dislike how Linus didn't properly test the block and said not to buy it.

You can buy equipment for the lab for thousands and ten thousands of dollars, but not spend 500 more per video to make them accurate?

 

The quality of videos has gone down over the time. They are funny, but a lot of times I wish a concept was better fleshed out into a video. 

 

I personally am  not a huge fan of the "going in blind videos", where the concept has been tested by someone but Linus then goes in mostly blind. A well constructed plan is more my thing but that's my opinion

 

 

1. This is theft, they were "LOANED" This prototype was from Billet Labs, there was unlikely to have been any point in communications between LTT and Billet Labs Where it wasn't stated that this object was Loaned to them for review purposes. Unauthorized Selling of Billet Lab's property is theft. its like getting a courtesy car from the mechanic and selling it on Craigslist. Sure not criminal but Civily Liable nonetheless.

2. I think people are underestimating The Kind of Damages This causes to a small manufacturing business. Getting rid of their BEST PROTOTYPE, means they would have had to massively delay the development Process, by Spending God knows how many £1000s of dollars to make another version, This would have Delayed any press coverage about the product, damaging their potential PR as it would take too long to make and interest might drop off for the product. This is beyond damaging and is the first major instance where LTT has become the "big bad corporation" that it has always portrayed itself not to be.

[Taf the Ghost]

7 minutes ago, TechDeckCAD said:

Did you actually watch the video???

 

GN was specifically outlining points where there MIGHT be bias (which is literally a common thing when you get to the point of being large enough to have product reviews, or sponsorships from major tech companies), which in turn means there are possible ethical concerns around the standards of how LMG scrutinizes their product, vs. scrutinizing a smaller company's products. In fact, that's why GN pointed out how silly it was to talk to AMD about such minimal differences, and yet, LMG doesn't afford the same luxury to Billet/etc. when it finds major discrepancies in numbers.

While they haven't done in much over the last couple of years, the "Handy Tech under $100" is a great series. And LTT goes out of its way to explain where everything came from since they're endorsing the utility of products. It's pretty obvious most can understand why they would disclose all of that.

 

As LMG brings the Labs online, all of those industry connections now "shade" results if they aren't declaimed and managed. GN is rightly pointing out what one part of LMG clearly understands something while another part is clearly not being mindful of the exact same reality.  (Also, the PSU video with all of the errors was really bad. They basically made the same mistakes that the PSU Tier List has to go out of its way to attempt to prevent for others because of the random naming issues with PSUs.)

 

You can always give advice/insight into a situation when you aren't a completely neutral observer, but the only way it doesn't look like manipulation is if you explain your bias/interests and explain your reasoning. This allows the neutral parties to judge the veracity of your statements and make their own decision. Which, again, is going to matter for the Labs.

 

Also, one subtle point from the video, which did come across a bit like salt from GN Steve, but it really does matter: the fact that LMG can in situ replace a YT video is both very potent/useful and really raises big ethical concerns when used. It's one of those situations where it really needs to be noted somewhere and what was changed.

[MartinTheActor]

I've watched the entire original GN video now, and read all the forum posts. Sadly, I couldn't care less about the Billet Labs issue. That's not the important bit of the GN criticism. Rather, it's the first half of the video that really concerned me. The number of corrections and mistakes made, and if true replacement of videos I may already have watched that I didn't have a way of knowing was wrong after the fact...that alone is enough that those at the top of LMG should be concerned. If the content I'm watching can from just a single person in their garage it's understandable and you kinda know that you're getting their views of the product. The positioning recently of trying to seem trustworthy especially in light of labs...whoever is responsible for the direction of the company (I genuinely don't know or really care) are making mistakes.

It feels like someone with a sole-trader mindset has been trying to run a medium to large company. It rarely ends well.

Trying to take a more humanistic approach to this: everyone involved in this is human. Everyone makes a mistake from time to time. When running a business however you have to learn to separate the personal and professional mistakes. When you're making a professional mistake it's difficult not to take it personally (having run a small business I know this all too well). You also have to learn when running a small business that you hit a limit of what you are capable of. I imagine many at LMG are now feeling very under attack, and that cannot be easy.

The parasocial dynamic however, is one that Linus has fostered and developed a career from. It's not wrong per-se to build such a career, but this is the massive downside. When you build your career on parasocial dynamics, the public criticism is going to feel personal, not professional.

The biggest takeaway I think is to remember that LTT and LMG videos are entertainment. That is a field in which LMG shines. It isn't a journalistic outlet and I don't think as it stands even has the potential to be. If buying and hiring in the 'world class talent' that I've heard claimed in many videos hasn't ironed out the errors, corrections and alleged replacement videos; then frankly I doubt the processes can ever be put in place to create a good review/testing/analysis organisation. Labs, I think will fail. It's not an if, it's a when. That's a shame, not least for the scores of employees that LMG have. But, as a viewer I think it's key to remember to come to LMG content for entertainment and biased opinion. Not facts.

[Harpo]

LMG may be more than Linus, but this issue is 100% Linus. 

 

If LMG wants to survive, their new CEO needs to make a public apology, settle matters with Billet Labs and recover their property, and put a short leash on Linus immediately.

[bobbybobjoebob]

1 minute ago, saintlouisbagels said:

Dirty laundry would imply these are things discussed in private.

Aside from the Billet Labs stuff, everything LTT has done is fair game. It's all public. GN just happens to be the one who cares enough to compile it all together into a cohesive video.

Fair enough

[Emwun Garand]

12 minutes ago, e22big said:

When is the last time you saw people use waterblock on a 3090ti because they want more fps?

When was it ever stated that Billet Labs was marketing this to gamers? This is clearly a niche product marketed at hardcore PC/watercooling enthusiasts. You can't sit here and dictate what is good for EVERYONE based on what you perceive to be good, based solely on price alone. Some people have money to spend on their hobbies. How are you NOT understanding this?

[Why_Me]

8 minutes ago, perryckd said:

 

I am not defending linus, but am pointing out how guerilla nexus loves to blow small things outta proportions and continue to elevate their standings through assassination of others. It is a dirty hack job i dislike. This could be easily resolve for the community good. 

 

Look, can someone believes LMG is so cheapo to "steal" the few hundred dollars? It is a mistake that organisation makes. Unless steve runs a bigger ones, he is just scummy to shape the narrative that LMG are evil doers over small matters. Do we know if Linus is shielding his employees for such oversight? 

 

Well I already shown guerilla nexus has made oversight themselves and cunningly chose to ignore. If every other youtubers play their guerilla games, than you like to see this so called tit for tat in the name of playing watchmen? 

You left out the part where Linus is on VIDEO saying he would rather do a half arsed product review than pay an extra $500 in order to do a proper product review.  

[LinusAuctionTips]

18 minutes ago, codemak said:

Because that wasn't from Linus.  It was from some employee in the lab speaking out of place.  Steve knew this and it's stupid point.  If Steve strictly acted on this one line with a 45 minute video criticizing LTT then I would be sorry I ever helped put his name out there.

This is a terrible take. The person giving the tour was an LMG employee, regardless of who they are or their position in the company, as an employee, they represent LMG and need to behave as such.

[Packet_of_Crisps]

7 minutes ago, infinitytec said:

Linus's reply was disappointing. All that's needed is to apologize, make things right, and move forwards.

 

I worry that this time LTT may have lost too much credibility. Especially with that response.

 

They did a massive disservice to Billet with their shoddy video on it. Then doubled down on it. And the way they have treated Billet since... that's a pretty big mistake.

 

If nothing else, LTT should take their video on Billet down. 

 

LTT can do better than this. 

It really is this simple.

[mikaelus]

2 minutes ago, e22big said:

TBH, you wouldn't have cared about it without the drama-fuel fire. 

 

I do agree that it's kind of mess up that he didn't bother spending more time to test it properly to the end though. If he doesn't think it worth everyone time, just don't release the video. 

 

If he want to laugh at it, at least give it a proper chance to shine. That was my stance on the issue. 

It's not only about this specific block but about ANY product. I hate it when reviewers bash anything for its price. It only makes sense for commoditized products.

 

But even they have often more than meets the eye. For example, different GPUs - despite bearing the same model name - come with different features, cooling, power delivery, materials used and so on. Should I compare just the raw performance or build quality as well? What about brand reputation that comes with a premium too?

 

Even CPUs have long been coming in different configurations in terms of number of cores, threads, cache, task-specific performance, TDP and so on. Whether or not a price point is attractive for the buyer depends on highly specific needs.

 

You can really only pass judgement on pricing of very close products, targeted at the same buyer. Certainly not something as unique as a monoblock to cool your CPU and GPU at the same time, which is by definition aimed at a very specific audience. Reviewers should understand when they are not the market and step back from judging "value" of something that is SUBJECTIVELY not for them.

[Battlenat0r]

1 minute ago, IseeFractals said:

...........................Linus's job, is to present the FACTS. He can give his opinion, as aggressively as he wants, so long as he presents the facts. 
............................

All i read was this.. and ignored your ENTIRE post...... So you mean with all that is shown, he presented the facts? lol lol
That waterblock was FACTS to get manufactured on a different generation GPU? lol
Sorry dude, dig the same hole Linus is digging..

[Yomerito]

On 8/14/2023 at 3:25 PM, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

After watching steve's video I have to say that I'm a fan of LTT, I watch all their videos but yeah over the past 1-2 years the growth seems to have surpassed what they can manage, the labs is a great goal but it is still a goal not a finished product and the problem is the marketing around it, Linus talks about it for what it can be rather than for what it is now. I get there are a TON of bills to pay but the company really needs to slow down and focus on quality rather than quantity, the amount of errors is brutal and it shouldn't be addressed with just a note that appears on screen for a few seconds at best, adding to that the amount of notes and correction on videos has increased a LOT and it is simply not enough to "fix it" on editing there's a point where you need to reshoot things or even the entire video.

Also I think this really deserves a full response/explainer video or at least to be seriously discussed on WAN show, a post on this forum is simply too little and while there may have already been discussions and even measures implemented internally the community deserves to know.

[Taf the Ghost]

13 minutes ago, andreimj said:

How can you say something like that? How can people project so effortlessly and present their opinion as facts? What the hell is wrong with you?

Company gets involved in "drama". Issues statement. Community has worse reaction after response. Statement has thus failed. Fairly basic logic, assuming you aren't a bot.

[9eorge380]

1 minute ago, crazybitz said:

blah blah blah

linus admits he would rather save $300 instead of having an accurate review. all credibility has been lost forever. no coming back.

I feel like you didnt see the entire context around that, the reason while i agree he should have re tested his point is that because the product itself was a) incompatable with most cases nd b) in his opinion not worth it for anyone at its price, he didnt re test as the conclusion he came to wouldnt have changed with the re test.

[miagisan]

2 minutes ago, eece_ret said:

By in large part I agree with this.  However I think if Steve was trying to be as above board as he espouses and given the implications he has attached to the Billet Labs portion, a request for comment prior to go live would at least more align with the journalistic standards he purports to hold himself too.  If not by letter then in spirit, call it what you wish.  But at least provide an avenue to obtain the other side of the situation before sending it.

No different than Linus doing a secret shopper, but GN didn't add points for being their sponsor 

[KCustomCrash]

On 8/14/2023 at 4:25 PM, LinusTech said:

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

There is a LARGE difference when it comes to the public's perception of a small business who sent a unit out for review, the sole purpose being to have a ACCURATE REPRESENTATION of how their product functions. For instance, if it were to only cost 150 dollars and you went out and published inaccurate results, you are completely cutting out the chance of a functioning product, that could absolutely have a chance in the market, from ever being a competitor. Now, it was NOT 150 and this is a large "what if" but the answer is not "this doesn't affect my bottom line so I will make no changes what so ever." It should ultimately be, "Oh hey, this was an absolute misrepresentation of a product sent to us for review on our channel where millions of people come for tech advice, a field in which we claim expertise, we need to fix this video immediately." If this is what could have been and could be in the future, you are no longer "experts in consumer technology and video production who aim to educate and entertain." You are an inaccurate source for consumer technology with a mindset that is unfathomably contradictory of a company owner who bought A WHOLE LAB to provide accurate representation of products that you are reviewing.

[Messju]

I am really surprised by this community. You'd think that the majority of people who consume LMG, value journalistic approaches, fact based informations and think twice before they perform any action.

Seems like an emotional reaction of a YouTuber on an accidental "personal attack" on them is more powerful. Everyone is just quoting GN and argumenting with his arguments (people have seen this video, believe it or not) and treating LMG just the same as a company like Apple.

Maybe try thinking on your own, instead of running after anyone who screams the loudest.

I can totally understand Linus's frustration you can see in the end of his post, because he himself tries his very best to be transparent, show everything and always keeps up a very respectable moral compass. What GN is doing is simply igniting some beef. I don't want to interpret any reason why they start the beef.

 

I am asking myself though: Why is GN screaming at LMG? Why do they do this publicly and without talking to LMG personally?

If they care about good content being out there and no mislead consumers, there would be way more efficient ways to ensure LMG keeps up with QC.

Screaming at someone mostly intents inflicting damage (which they at least in short term did). Why does GN want that? Do they really think that LMG considerably damaged GN with what they said in said labs tour? And if so, how childish would it be to just scream louder and hit back? I don't get it. How can a team of grown up high quality journalists come up with a video like that? TALK with each other.

If GN was a small channel who would have no effective way of reaching out to LMG to talk about the issues they see with LTT content, they could definitely scream and hope to be heard. GN doesn't need this.

 

I am starting to repeat myself so I'll leave it like that. I hope, the comment sections under the next few videos will be usable again and the Like / Dislike ratio represents the quality of the video and not some clashing communities fighting a fight they don't need to.

 

In the end I just want to say: Good way of responding, Linus. However I cannot judge the quality of the response. I (and the vast majority of y'all) don't work at LMG and I don't know if Linus's statements are true or appropriate.

Good luck to the new CEO ^^

[coopa]

6 minutes ago, RadiatingLight said:

What's happening now (mostly) is exactly what's intended. There's certainly a fire lit under Linus/LTT, but it's hardly their downfall.

With a semi-reasonable reaction from LMG this could be fixed.

What baffles me is that some people believe this is some super vindictive power play by Steve/GN to destroy LTT forever, or that everyone wants LTT/LMG's downfall if they aren't ardently supporting LMG completely. Or that Steve not asking for a right to reply (LMG being able to respond and have quotes included in the video) somehow invalidates Steve/GN's criticism of the dropoff in quality of LMG videos in recent history.

 

If Linus/LMG had put out a shorter, more tempered response yesterday with something to the effect of "We've heard some commentary in the hardware community about our videos. While we don't agree with everything stated, we take feedback seriously. Producing high quality, accurate, and entertaining content for you, our community, is our number one priority. Thanks for your patience, video in a few days.", there would be far far far fewer pitchforks and discontent.

Instead Linus rushed out a reply which at best unintentionally misled people about the situation with Billet Labs (language suggested that LMG and Billet had agreed on recompense before Steve's video aired, when LMG only offered to reimburse them for the prototype they auctioned by mistake AFTER Steve's video), and dealt in broad strokes of corporate language without addressing the individual criticisms within the video, and ignored how dirty the bad installation and refusal to re-review did Billet.

 

I'm hoping the reason that we haven't seen any replies from Linus or LMG today is because they are taking a serious hard look internally, having an internal discussion, and coming up with either a written or video reply that is more substantive than what Linus rushed to post after the GN video.

 

Very few people are french revolution style "Off with his head" demanding Linus be out or the media empire dismantled. Most people just want LMG to own up that there are quality issues and they are actually committing to fix them beyond corporate PR speak.Acknowledge the issues, acknowledge why they happened, and commit on what you're going to do to resolve them going forward. It's that simple.

It could take a few days. Maybe a week or two. But Linus rushed the clock with an (at best) halfhearted response that portrayed LMG as the victim. That accelerated the clock in the realm of public opinion unnecessarily... 

[Silviecat44]

On 8/15/2023 at 7:33 AM, bizzehdee said:

 

contacting linus personally, and resolving it quietly. is the exact opposite of "proper journalistic practices", what an absolute narcasistic arrogant buffoon

I know right? They are a corporation and should be treated as such

[eece_ret]

4 minutes ago, Elinzar said:

LTX last day was June 30th, idk when the auction was but i was under the impression it was at LTX

GN video was released yesterday, 14 of august, 2 weeks man

Yeah thats longer than 4 days.  I very much agree that 14 days is piss poor, however ghosting carries an implication of willful neglect.  Given the purported workload at LMG in general and then add LTX, im willing to bet there is non willful aspect to be weighed in opposition to "they ghosted them" statement.

[Nintendo Prime]

1 minute ago, crazybitz said:

blah blah blah

linus admits he would rather save $300 instead of having an accurate review. all credibility has been lost forever. no coming back.

You do know I'm not defending him, correct? He has handled this horrendously and has always handled all criticism of his work horrendously. This isn't anything new.

But per usual, some people just want to watch the world burn. Integrity is about honesty and morality. Credibility is about trust. Closely related, but there is a reason they are different terms entirely. His credibility as a reviewer is in the trash right now, absolutely. Integrity wise - we may not like what he said - but he was pretty honest in that moment. Not going to redo it because of cost. Crap excuse? Yup. Honest? Probably. 

However, I will never agree he can't earn credibility back. Maybe he never can from you - because you lack the ability to let him earn it and forgive. How he can earn it back in general though is... up to him at this point.

[Allen Copeland]

If they've lost over 3,000 subscribers on Floatplane, if they were non-OGs, they've lost over $180K in ARR.

 

This needs a better response or the fire will continue to burn.