Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[jooroth18]

5 minutes ago, daydreamfaze said:

Well to be frank, What you "think, is wrong. Theres what you think and what actually happened. Billet labs has two different products, one for the 3090 and one for the 40.. 

Billet said this was their first good prototype, and the havent tested it on a 40 series yet.

[aka473]

20 minutes ago, kalleth said:

I'd point out that @Amaninacity is posting US sources (NPR, etc) and you're posting UK sources, just to make sure people don't talk past each other. But in general terms, I've seen comment before in this thread that matches the IPSO's interpretation in other countries -- I just can't find the post right now.

Yeah, I saw a post that reference the ISPO for it as well, but I couldn't find it either.

[zeroality]

56 minutes ago, PandaSasquatch said:

Who cares about all that? LMG is staffed by humans who do not work 24/7/365, and I don't want them to. LMG staff had at most 1 business day to respond to the last email sent. For all we know the process of reimbursing Billet Labs had already been set in motion.
 

But by all means, keep raging about this, you're clearly making the world a better place. /s

Clearly almost everyone here cares about being lied to but perhaps your self worth propositions are somewhat different.
The second portion of your statement is inaccurate as Billet has confirmed there was no outreach until after the GN video

[PandaSquawk]

2 minutes ago, daydreamfaze said:

Ignorance of the law does not make one immune to it... You dont take something you KNOW is not yours and sell it....or auction it even... Its not YOUR property... 

To anyone with a brain not clouded by adrenaline and rage, it is clear that LMG did not KNOWINGLY sell something that they were not allowed to.

[atxcyclist]

3 minutes ago, aka473 said:

You claim that he is violating his standards, when it is clear he isn't.

 

It is, he made them and has now ignored them. He has talked constantly about these standards whenever he does a video like this.

 

I cannot explain that any clearer, to you or anyone else. If you've not been watching GN's videos and are not familiar with the standards he's set for himself, then I guess you will just keep pointlessly arguing about it.

[FadedSpark]

Just now, WolframaticAlpha said:

I didn't like GNs video. It was too overdramatised and didn't reach for comment. Most of the issues have already been highlighted in the comments, so I won't bother repeating it. GNs coverage of the matter has been kind of motivated.

 

However, the issue is kind of clear now. LTT has grown too large too quickly and you guys don't have the tools to deal with more than a 100 people. Couple that with the rapid expansion of the labs stuff, you can see how such frequent comms breakdowns start taking place. 

 

As for the Billet labs stuff, I seriously don't think that LTT wouldve sold the waterblock out of malice as some talking heads on the internet suggest. They aren't that stupid, especially after they faced that massive blowup over issues with licensing of some software. It seems more likely that someone sent someone an email, that wasn't read and someone accidentally put on a wrong tag that let to the thing being sold. 

 

The main thing that ltt needs to do is to figure out how to actually grow up and transition away from the company of a few people to that of a few hundred, or else these issues won't be mitigated.

It wasn't malice, that would be absolutely brain dead level stupid.

 

It was however complete and utter ineptitude and lack of accountability that allowed it to happen.

[Mr_Guillotine]

23 hours ago, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

I hope this can all be worked out and I hope that you and Steve can discuss things, but you have to be open to criticism, which, honestly, sometimes you don't seem to be (though, sort of understandable, but sometimes I feel like you take things too personally when all someone is trying to do is to help you understand something from a new perspective...and I believe you've admitted as much on WAN at least once), but in this case, it would be good to just listen and then give honest answers to any questions, clear up anything that was incorrect or a misunderstanding. From your post, I sort of got the impression that you were saying that Steve didn't contact you at all before this video released. If so, then despite what some seem to think, that is actually not how journalists tend to operate, maybe it's a tech journo thing, but typically, a journalist will contact the subject of their story to discuss it, to let them know what facts/evidence they have, and to seek out any clarifications (with supporting evidence of course) to ensure that they are presenting both sides of it to the best of their ability. So if Steve didn't contact you at all before this, and simply released the video without warning or opportunity to weigh in, then that would be bad journalism on his part...

What it doesn't do though is negate the majority of the claims in his video. I think it's become clear to a lot of us, that you guys are moving too fast. You need to take a step back to clean up the QA issues. Many us understand there are growing pains, but let's be honest, you do not want to start out with the Labs this way. Starting out and having too many corrections, errors, flaws in testing, etc is a very poor foundation to build the reputation of the Labs upon, and if you need to reduce the weekly video output to allow more time for your team to be more thorough, or come up with simpler video concepts if you really feel you have to keep up the same schedule, then that should be strongly considered if not adopted immediately. We've all heard you discuss how bad crunch is for the industry (tech, games, etc), and how it impacts quality, employee morale, and company reputation....you and your team can actually demonstrate a better way. So lead by example and show everyone how it should be done. Take more time, and strive to get it right. Will there still be mistakes? Sure, but if you slow it down, you'll have more time to make actual edits, add in proper corrections, and you'll build a better foundation moving forward. 

Anyway, I don't like it when Mom and Dad fight, so figure it out please 

(I made this comment elsewhere and forgot to reply/quote this. I doubt you'll personally see it...but I hope that you do. 

[K4shira]

Just now, PandaSasquatch said:

People keep using that word stolen. Nothing was "stolen." The block was effectively lost and wrongly sold at a charity auction. Get a grip.

They intentionally sold it at an auction. Key word intentionally. They didn't lose it. It was clearly labeled at the auction as Billet Labs water block prototype. It was not mistakenly placed there, or lost somewhere, it was placed at the auction with intent and with knowledge of who's and what it is, because it was labeled as such...

[aka473]

2 minutes ago, Amaninacity said:

Notice how this is a preemptive martyring of himself, and not an acknowledgement/explanation related to his failure to request comment. He doesn’t mention the fact that he didn’t bother to request comment at all. This is not a personal relationship thing, it’s a professional ethics thing.

He doesn't have to request comment for a High-Profile Target that could attempt to kill the story before publication if requested for comment.

[End User]

At this point Linus Media Group content is entertainment for dupes.

[TurtleLove]

So yes, new user on the forum but long time viewer.
Do you guys know if anybody made a post about properly breaking down Linus's response?
Like interpretation and formulation, just curious
More on how it is formulated and were misinterpretation is likely?

A little less on he is right or wrong.

Or could I or someone else open a new topic?

[Drazil100]

2 minutes ago, SoulSunder said:

That wasn’t the malicious part though. What was malicious was Linus totally ignoring the specifications of the product, rating it based on incorrect usage then trashing on it. He could have just said it doesn’t work for a 4090 and left it at that but he didn’t. This is one of the few times where not reading the instructions and doing “jank for entertainment” was malicious from the get go.

Billet said it was possible it could work. That's not malice, it's negligence. Malice implies that he intended to do them dirty which he had no motive for.

[Corey Clak]

Just now, PandaSasquatch said:

To anyone with a brain not clouded by adrenaline and rage, it is clear that LMG did not KNOWINGLY sell something that they were not allowed to.

This is what I'm finding a bit concerning. As everyone is assuming Linus... Personally sold it, for a malicious reason. 

And it's clear, he is trying to rectify it.

[Monknot]

1 hour ago, eece_ret said:

They tried that already

 

LOL maybe I should of stated in a formal way not a satirical way.

[JoshuaScholar]

Being on the receiving side of one of Steve's critical videos is never going to be fun.

But lets face it Linus can take it.  There isn't so much to get upset over.

I just hope that for the sake of everyone, LMG can take criticism and improve.

[Artis]

While I agree with some of the points that GN bring up and LTT needs to step up their game a bit, I think you guys are missing another perspective on what might be happening.

So Steve hit pretty hard with the video and he... has a way of making such videos. Every time he "makes a tough video" there is this pattern where he snipes certain points he feels strongly about with overwhelming certainty and even acts a little bit like he is some sort of ultimate authority that has "oh oh, now I set my sight on you. Now you definitely need to explain yourself to me" kind of vibe. And no, its not a matter of me being Linus fanboy or Steve fanboy. He acted similarly with the Newegg. He has this persona in such situations where his ego makes him play a bit like the police.

So why am I saying all this. By having this kind of persona and very well thought out script and video evidence to back it up he paints this very contrast black and white picture. People will either side with or against him. 

Lets take a step back. "Never attribute to malice...", right? So lets look at some facts. In the last year LTT was preocupied with Backpack, screwdriver, lab, LTX. All that while transitioning to a new CEO. Honestly speaking, look at every other company that makes expos, they all share the same thing - it is hard, it is stressful, it takes a lot of time and causes chaos. Look at Blizzard and BlizzCon. LTX alone takes enough energy on its own. If people were preocupied and messed up with Billet they probably had to contact someone to figure out what to do to fix this up, they emailed/called someone, they were also busy with other stuff and it slipped. Does it excuse them - no, but bare with me. What happened, happened. Today Linus sees the video and suddenly thinks "oh shit!". Calls 3-4 people and tells them to get on top of this asap. 

Now what do you do? Of course you try to do damage control. You say payment is being aranged, that you are in contact, etc. etc. Yes, of course... thats a bit misleading and could be seen as manipulative. But... come on guys... think for a second. You dont stop saying things like "ooh... look how big of a corporation LTT has become, they became evil, blah blah". No, stop for a second and try to think as if it is the opposite. OK, they screwed up, but Linus has 100 mouths to feed. If you were in his shoes and you hold the monthly salaries of 100 people, many of which being your friends, what would you do?

Would you say "ehm... yeah, we are sending money only after we saw Steve's video, but not because we got exposed, but because we forgot"? Even if that was the case, you would all jump him with "Yeah, how so convenient", "Oh you forgot, but you never forget to collect sponsor payments", etc. etc.
You would probably try to do damage control and try to exit the situation without looking worse than you absolutely have to. You would probably just stick to facts like "We are taking care of its, payments are being aranged" without specifying when, why, who lets you know etc.

Come on, please everybody just try imagining you being in that place and not acting out of malice. How would that look like? And to all of you who would say "I would have owned my mistake", I am going to say this: Yes, I would have owned it too, if it was just me, if there were 100 other people I am responsible for, I would play the CEO role and try to do damage control.

[atxcyclist]

1 minute ago, Gianluca Angeli said:

There is nothing to read here that add more info to the conversation. 

People are coming here because they are mad at LTT/Linus, they don't care about what random user 1422312 wrote 3 hours ago LMAO

There is when some doofus with a hour-old account, starts making claims about things they haven't even read. I'm very aware that new joins seem to have zero interest in reading the thread.

[Alexeygridnev1993]

11 minutes ago, orio76 said:

Well I believe something is wrong with alot of guys here... LMG have more then 100 employees this means that not all decision/subjects are discussed or reach linus hears... I can talk for the company I work, we are more the 1200 employees and if ever single decision wpuld have to be taken or get the approva of the CEO we would be gone a long time ago... mistakes happen, it's part of our life, what matters is what you do to fix the mistake and the measures you put in place to avoid that again...

Linus gets all the profit at the end of the day. Let him take all the effing responsibility.

[zeroality]

Just now, TurtleLove said:

So yes, new user on the forum but long time viewer.
Do you guys know if anybody made a post about properly breaking down Linus's response?
Like interpretation and formulation, just curious
More on how it is formulated and were misinterpretation is likely?

A little less on he is right or wrong.

Or could I or someone else open a new topic?

Yes there was a GN recap breaking down his post and the lies in it. Check the latest vid on their channel

[PandaSquawk]

2 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

The recap and additional info on the Billet issue probably wasn't worth doing another video on, putting a recap of something he discusses is what GN usually does.

Sure... It's not worth a dedicated follow-up video, but it's all over the thumbnail and title designed to get clicks as the biggest news around.

[ILikeHardware]

15 minutes ago, ScoggsUK said:

Your assigning intended malice to an action that hasn't even been performed. 

 

A lie is an intent to deceive on purpose. I dont think the intention is to here. I see another in a long line of comms failures internally. 

 

If people interpret it a way the ascribes malice or intent to an action, (which in all seriousness he didn't have to respond too within 3 hours, again I think he may of been trying to do the right thing), then sure it can look shady. I just don't think based off the public persona at least, that a intention to deceive is being made.

 

 

I see where you are coming from, and I agree most are seeing it with this intended malice. I think this intended malice is perceived due to the numerous mistakes, and the lack of wanting to take accountability by rectifying these mistakes or redoing videos. In the case of Billet I would say taking the video down would have been proper. Instead, when Linus first replied in this thread, there's a string of excuses, and a single "apology" that is nothing more than a "sorry you feel that way" type of apology, namely this part of the reply: "...I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light.".

 

This is not an actual apologies for wrongdoing, but instead apologising for not doing it perfectly. This isn't like they scored a 6 where they could have scored a 9 with their video in the Billet product. It was downright wrong. That's where people are perceiving the type of malice you touched on. At least as far as I can tell.

 

As for me, I will await a proper response from LTT. If it's anything like a lawsuit against GN I am 100% done with LTT. That's the one thing I feel a party with "intended malice" would go for.

[mr_vpw]

23 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Thanks for reading this.

 

I read it. It's a bad take. The whole situation is the biggest misstep you've made in a while.

Had I not already cancelled FP this month I would have now, and I've unsubbed on YT too. I'd noticed the quality of content has slipped and I don't watch most videos anymore, haven't in some time. That is a shame, but liveable. Plenty of inaccurate content out there.

But what got me to the 'don't notify me, won't watch most' was the increasing arrogance in the attitude about things, and ultimately that's manifested pretty horribly with the Billet Labs thing - you just about got away with it until you claimed you'd arranged some compensation for them for it, other than the bit where you forgot to mention you hadn't until the GN video. That makes you as slippery as every single company you slate week after week on WAN... 

[WolframaticAlpha]

Also I hate the fact that so many people have signed up to the forum to post their one sided reddit takes.

 

LTT is Satan reincarnate amirite fellow redditors?

[BlackSmokeDMax]

I think the sad thing here is that all of this talk about the cooler has detracted from what I originally thought was the bigger deal, and that was the stealth fixing of videos, meaning most original viewers of the videos will never see the corrected LMG info.

 

One thing I think GN got somewhat wrong was complaining about LMG putting "*corrections" in their video. As long as that was done before first views, I think that is somewhat fine. It looks horrible, and not well done, but at least the info would be in there for all viewers. Of course the downside of that is people who only listen to the videos. But that is somewhat the nature of the beast I think. Not everyone is going to, or able to, watch them.

 

[jooroth18]

4 minutes ago, PandaSasquatch said:

To anyone with a brain not clouded by adrenaline and rage, it is clear that LMG did not KNOWINGLY sell something that they were not allowed to.

Lots of people are looking for technicalities to justify the situation, but either way, its still bad optics.

 

LMG had a miscommunication, they did not knowingly sell an item that was suppoed to be sent back to the team at billet.

 

Mistakes happen, sure.

 

This does not excuse the fact that their response to billet at the end was disrespectful.