Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[eece_ret]

Just now, Abraxaz said:

So many people that don't seem to understand how LMG works. It's not a small company it has 100 people working in it.

 

How many times do you guys email your ceo in your day to day emails. I bet Linus didn't even know about this until the GN video went live. The fact it's been resolved so quickly most likely means that Linus/CEO didn't know about this.

 

If Steve had contacted Linus directly this probably wouldn't have been such a issue and resolved very quietly. 

 

Linus needs to fire the member of staff as a example and let everyone know the person has been fired due to Steve's diligent investigation. 

You dont fire an employee if the process is broken.  That action goes up the chain.

[K4shira]

52 minutes ago, PandaSasquatch said:

Yeah, Billet Labs heard nothing via email in the single business day LMG had to respond before the GN video went live.

After LMG realized they've stolen a multi thousand dollar prototype you'd think they'd immediately call Linus and/or the CEO to get this issue fixed ASAP, and with ASAP I mean within the hour.

 

Why would you wait one business day to solve this? It would be the right thing to fix this immediately, also it would be good to not be known in the community for stealing prototypes/review samples, and you'd think they'd do everything they can to avert being charged for theft... They realized that they potentially commited a crime (theft), so why would they wait? That is something that warrants calling the boss even if he's on vacation to fix it immediately. The fact that they thought this can wait until next week just proves the questionable ethics of LMG.

[VisibleXela]

Just now, atxcyclist said:

The rest of your post is just proof you're a troll with zero actual constructive criticism or information to add here.

Then stop responding to them. You don't have to, just advice.

[Drazil100]

7 minutes ago, Shatterhand said:

Oh wow, so Billet Labs gave them a 3090 with the prototype so they could properly test it???

So why the fuck did they act as if they hadn't one and used a 4090 and then shit all over Billet??

If I recall, billet said that it was possible it would work (probably not understanding the filming process and that they would only try it on one card and not both). Linus took that and was like "viewers don't care about last gen lets try it on the 40 series card" (not an exact quote)

 

Edit:
I believe this was in the actual video directly why they chose to go with the 40 series card so check that for the actual quote. It wasn't malace.

[atxcyclist]

2 minutes ago, aka473 said:

They don't have to do so in a piece like this, since the act of requesting comment on a fluid situation like this to an untrustworthy party can lead to the story itself being affected.

It doesn't matter if they have a requirement from some organization or journalistic standards, Steve claims he does this, and he didn't in this instance. Steve changing his standards for this one incident is just being hypocritical on his part, whether you like it or not.

[Glorthiar]

1 minute ago, Leksi T said:

 

I have similar thoughts regarding GNs more recent video, even a bit regarding the first. But, the main points behind GN's criticisms still seem mostly valid.  

 

As far as claiming negligence,  whatever is happening inside LMG, it's resulted in consequences outside LMG that are too big or numerous to ignore or keep quiet about any longer, at least now that GN has decided to go full force in bringing them to light.  I think GN has to really look at what they view as being 'professional' themselves, but here we are.

 

I am using somewhat light terminology here and in my previous posts, but I am trying very hard to keep my own biases under wraps, and I know words with harsh connotations can be easily misinterpreted. So to be clear, and a bit more open: Both companies need to get their shit straight.  This is hard on LMG, GN, and the community, and half assed statements/responses aren't gonna cut it anymore.  And I think that so far, I've seen too much from all sides.

 

(Except from Billet. They've handled this exceptionally well)

yeah same thought. Just because GN also decided to suddenly be super shitty does not UNDO the problems he initially exposed.

The criticisms still stand and still need to be resolved.

[PandaSquawk]

8 minutes ago, ScoggsUK said:

As I stated earlier, he's lied about getting a qoute part yes.

Except he didn't. Per Billet's public statement on Reddit, they emailed the LMG team the value of the of the block on August 10th.

 

"We replied on 10th August within 30 minutes, telling LTT that this wasn't okay, and that this was a £XXXX prototype, and we asked if they planned to reimburse us at all."

https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15rxni4/comment/jwbrh0i/

 

[aka473]

6 minutes ago, ScoggsUK said:

The key point being, 'we agreed to compensate'. 

 

I read this as an internal we, as in We LMG have agreed to compensate.

 

Not that Billet labs have reached an agreement. He has not lied over this point.

 

As I stated earlier, he's lied about getting a qoute part yes. But if you want an apology solely from that then good luck to you.

Again, that is you taking a very kind, some might even say friendly, interpretation of the words that were written, but you don't use those words like that unless you are referring to all parties involved. If they meant LMG, then they should have said that explicitly, and even if they did say that, it would have still been a lie, because Billet Labs never agreed to any form of compensation offered by LMG at the time of the post. If Linus wanted to say what you are saying he meant, then he should have said something to the affect of "We at LMG are prepared to offer monetary compensation or any other kind of compensation that may be requested from Billet Labs." But Linus is the one who left ambiguity to what he meant, and the most common reading of that would be to assign we to refer to both LMG and Billet Labs.

[FadedSpark]

3 minutes ago, harls said:

From the point LMG notified Billet there was an issue to the GN video was one business day.  We have seen nothing that tells us they were aware of the mistake prior to that.  According to Billet they have agreed to a price,  Linus tracked down and offered to get the card back for billet but they decided they would sooner have the agreed upon price.  We are currently at most 4 business days into the fiasco since they were notified it was sold.  Yes there were major fuck ups by LMG and they need to get their shit fixed.  There is no evidence of lying between LMG and Billet.

This is objectively wrong. The GN video was yesterday. The admission of the fuck up was the 10th or 11th (can't remember, I've seen both thrown around.) While the actual fuck up happened on the 30th of July at LTX.

 

The fuck up was made possible by several other secondary fuck ups. Namely, not sending back the God damn prototype when requested.

 

It takes 2 minutes to print a FedEx label with a business account. Should have just dealt with it immediately instead of letting it snowball by expecting someone else to take care of it, several times.

[Lagonas]

1 minute ago, eece_ret said:

The fact it's been resolved so quickly most likely means that Linus/CEO didn't know about this.

But it is not resolved. Linus said it has been resolved because they agree to pay, while Billet has not sent them an invoice of whatever. They just sent what the block is worth for them.

[atxcyclist]

1 minute ago, VisibleXela said:

Then stop responding to them. You don't have to, just advice.

 

I responded to a post of theirs directed at me one time, you their cheer section or something?

[Caphenning]

Good Point, The Problem with being an Employee/CEO for an Owner/Subordinate is you really have no leverage to direct your subordinate. 

[MindArlekin]

So, after watching GN's reply, this is what I think:
1) Let's hope Ivonne will remind Linus that it's her company too, because without her LTT would not exist. Also, it will be good to see the new CEO giving Linus a good reality slap to the face and reminding him why he stepped down.

2) They NEED to lower amount of videos on LTT, especially ones that include testing of products by Labs or otherwise. It will give some air to breathe for employees (they actually want it, BTW) and will give some time for the proper QC while Labs are figuring out their tools, processes, and test methodology.

3) After this shitty (no offense, it just is) response Linus NEEDS to make a proper video with not just "I'm sorry", but with a list of what they are changing. It's not needed right this freaking second, but in a couple of days - absolutely.

[Abraxaz]

2 minutes ago, eece_ret said:

You dont fire an employee if the process is broken.  That action goes up the chain.

You do fire the employee if they recognise a fuck up and don't report it.

 

Plus it gives the doom mongers the blood they want whilst protecting the brand.

 

 

[Saeumii]

1 hour ago, Cosmic Emotion said:

Just reposting that the situation with Billet has probably been resolved now.

 

 

if there's anything good to come out of this for anybody, at least billet labs gained magnitudes more recognition than they otherwise would've had

[BlackSmokeDMax]

Just now, PandaSasquatch said:

Except he didn't. Per Billet's public statement on Reddit, they emailed the LMG team the value of the of the block on August 10th.

 

"We replied on 10th August within 30 minutes, telling LTT that this wasn't okay, and that this was a £XXXX prototype, and we asked if they planned to reimburse us at all."

https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15rxni4/comment/jwbrh0i/

 

 

LOL, that in no way constitutes an official quote between business entities. That was a WTF email.

[SimonShipperd]

3 minutes ago, Lagonas said:

Because Linus is the one responsible at the end of the day. When someone messes something up for a customer at a company, the company is responsible. They may decide to punish the employee that causes this, which is completely fine, but the top management is the one that is responsible for what happened and how to solve it.

Being a team lead myself I understand and agree that crap does not go downhill but uphill. But at a certain point you also need to realize that people are hired to perform a job. It is not possible to start micromanaging every single thing they do. Cause at that point you're not a good leader and you might as well could do things yourself.

[kdawgmaster]

5 minutes ago, TennSeven said:

Seemed to me more like he went out of his way to bash a couple of sites without really knowing what he was talking about, but perhaps I should give him the benefit of the doubt.

In his case i would say that both HUB and GN are the other 2 largest tech reviewers with the widest reach. To me, it would seem natural to call them out in that situation. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for that.

[VisibleXela]

Just now, atxcyclist said:

 

I responded to a post of theirs directed at me one time, you their cheer section or something?

No, just offering advice on how to handle trolls. Check my history, I keep saying the same thing about Legitsu as well.

[Orthusaku]

5 minutes ago, eece_ret said:

A:  Steve GN begins "LMG has issues" content curation for production.  All the clips of staff interviews, botched graphs from LTT vids etc etc)

1. Billet Labs sends their prototype and 3090ti to LMG for review

2. LMG does said review with incorrect hardware (thought indicated  it 'may' work with a 4090, so its not like LMG didnt at least talk with them first)

3. Billet asks LMG for the prototype back

4. LMG staff responds saying they plan to ship it back shortly

4a:  LTT Labs employee recorded on prem during tour answering questions, comments about GN and HW_UB are made.

4b:  Water Block Auctioned

4c:  Ltt Labs tour Video is uploaded and finds its way to HWUB and GN.  

4d:  HW UB tweets a response to said video.

5.  LMG then reaches out on Friday August 10th, saying they unintentionally sold it at auction for charity

6. Billet responds angrily 30 minutes later saying the block was expensive and it's not ok LMG sold it

7:  GN releases Linus Issues video, mentioning teh Waterblock situation.

8. LMG responds to Billet via email on Monday August 14th 

9:  Steve GN immediately has "shocked" response video written, shot edited and uploaded detailing water block situation in detail. 

 

Lets not forget how this wick got lit, and when.  Seems to be Steve has been sitting on some content for a minute and this was the opportunity to unload it.  While his content is factual good reporting, the timing is interesting and has an air of revenge to it for a perceived slight from an LMG employee.  Very Hoover esque (as in J Edgar)

 

That said, epic fail auctioning that block.  Self imposed harm 10X, collateral damage 20X.

 

 

How does one "unintentionally sold it at auction for charity" like you have to take it out of storage, get it approved to be auctioned, verify it wasn't to be sent back, take it to LTX, put it on the table.

 

Like multiple steps were taken to get it auctioned.

[vannr1729]

22 hours ago, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

I want to start this off stating that I am the type of person who observes as much as I can, and will rarely state my opinion unless I feel it is something that can possibly make a change. So, thank you in advance for your time.

 

 

In appreciation for everything LTT and LMG have taught me about the tech realm; and in appreciation for what you (Linus) and everyone else on your team is doing to make the larger corporations be seen as just that (i.e. not fanboying or toxic supporting), this chain of events is unfortunate for everyone involved. When watching The WAN Show, as well as both the initial GamersNexus video, and follow up piece in their HW News, all I am seeing is the beginning of a partnership (I don't know your personal relationship(s) as they are just that) start to crumble.

 

Steve is, well Steve; which is why I watch his channel. He is unabashedly looking for the truth and does so in an unapologetic way. It's not uncharacteristic of him to do so. Let all of the his other videos (NZXT H1 issues, ASUS MoBo issues, etc.) based solely on his journalistic approach to things that end up forcing companies to fix their discrepancies, be examples of what he's trying to do. Not necessarily call them out as villains or such, but to bring mention onto an otherwise unmentioned problem that needs to be addressed and fixed.

 

Speaking for myself, I can see that you (Linus) are stretched out and tired, I can sympathize with that. Being a father and running a company as well as trying to maintain a status quo for yourself, your family and friends, and your employees is a lot for one person to handle. Your move to step down and hire a CEO is commendable and should be seen as such; very few people have the strength and will power to let someone else finish raising the baby (LMG) you brought into this world for others to enjoy. With your move to CVO, my hopes is that the quality of your videos will improve, as I have always enjoyed them, there are a few too many mistakes and small issues with them. I understand there is a QC re-evaluation that is being done and would like to help in anyway possible (referring to the community outreach options mentioned in the WAN show). With that being said, that is what the core of the issue that GN is pointing out, that and the way this situation is being handled. I agree with GN, and there needs to be some form of accountability for the actions that happened; but I also agree that not everything is a clear as it seems. 

 

We, as people, make mistakes; but owning up to them and fixing them is more important than an apology or a redirect of the issue. (I fell like what I'm going to say next might come off as negative, but I assure you it's not.)  We have a saying in the Army: Tighten your shot group. You're still hitting the target but you're not hitting center mass with every pull of the trigger. We don't expect perfection, and if there are those out there that do; that is a wrong mindset. If the focus for the future of LTT (YouTube side of things) is Labs backed videos, explanation of the testing methods and methodology would be apprecitated; not just by the community but as validation for those that created and use the tools for the videos. The one example that keeps coming to mind is the fiasco that happened with Principled Technologies. I, and the community I assume, don't want that for you or your company. What I'm hearing is Steve ask for an ownership of the mistakes, an apology for them, the correction and the way forward to prevent them in the future. Correct data is paramount in this space, and your findings are just that, data. But, make sure there are no outliers and it's correct to the best of your team's abilities. If doing a retake on a video before its published is required, then it needs to be done. I preffered the quality over quantity approach to LTT's previous videos, and I prefer medium length (15-20 minute) videos put out by yourself and your team rather than all the short form videos. I understand the shorter videos have a larger role in the algorithm, but over saturation is not always a good thing. 

 

TLDR version (going to be blunt, apologies for offense, if any): Take a setup back, re-address, and reconvene on the GN subjects as an impartial individual (understanding that it's difficult because it's not always you (Linus) making the mistakes). Focus on quality not quantity of videos, i.e; an LTT Store shirt is more expensive than some but will last longer than a $10 one at Walmart. Trust but verify the data that is being published by you and your team. Don't be like Nvidia. PERIOD.

 

 

With all of that said I am and will be a supporter of what you and your company does, but I also feel Steve is right (in his own way).

 

Thank you for your time if you read this, and will answer any questions if needed.

 

-Ryan

[aka473]

12 minutes ago, PandaSasquatch said:

False.

LMG has already outright lied about their communications with Billet Labs, how is that not retroactive justification, due to the intervention of said story target trying to kill said story after publication. The implication is that they would have reached out to Billet Labs before publication if asked for comment, and therefore would have killed the story.

Edited August 15, 2023 by aka473
vague wording

[Jai_2501]

Just now, FadedSpark said:

This is objectively wrong. The GN video was yesterday. The admission of the fuck up was the 10th or 11th (can't remember, I've seen both thrown around.) While the actual fuck up happened on the 30th of July at LTX.

 

The fuck up was made possible by several other secondary fuck ups. Namely, not sending back the God damn prototype when requested.

 

It takes 2 minutes to print a FedEx label with a business account. Should have just dealt with it immediately instead of letting it snowball by expecting someone else to take care of it, several times.

I feel like that's the thing. I dunno what goes on at lmg but the team has gotten so huge so quickly that their communication system (whatever it was) is either not cutting it or needs to be changed. How tf do you mess up so bad? And we know this isn't singular because as Steve pointed out there are so many issues.

[PandaSquawk]

9 minutes ago, Karon said:

Because he's done with Linus and his bullshit reply. Instead of making a sole video reacting to linus' statement he put it into the news recap and called it a day. 

 

No reason not to monetize that video. 

Yeah, I mean, you can't expect "Tech Jesus" to have consistent ethical standards on monetization can you? /s

[FluffyPuppyKasey]

Gaslighting, specific verbiage, dodging the actual topics at hand, and trying to defend himself even though everyone (who's not a superfan that thinks Linus can do no wrong) is calling him out on it, when the original GN video was posted OUT OF CONCERN.

 

@LinusTech, do better, please. You're investing in a lab, but the past has shown (for example, the 4090 review, in Cyberpunk, settings weren't double checked and the game wasn't restarted just to make sure they were applied) that the accuracy of the data (y'know, something that's very important for a public database of benchmarks and tests) isn't taken care of. Automation will only hurt this.