Apple suspended production of M2 Chips due to falling demand for Macs

[kumicota]

On 4/9/2023 at 10:55 PM, Kisai said:

Now they're doing that with the Steamdeck.

Why isn't steam deck running linux?

[Brooksie359]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

People engineer their products for where the market is, this has little to do with MS's intent and mostly simply is a result of majority of the market using a windows machine (anybody can write a program for windows without having to pay a cent to MS).  This, by the way,  is changing at a reasonably fast rate as people move to tablets and phones instead of laptops/desktops.

 

It's a shame others on this forum can't see this fact when it is the other way around,  developers trying to engineer for a market but half that market is controlled by the OS maker (who you have to pay developer fee's to amongst other costs).

You also have to take into account that with apple you are stuck with using their hardware so it tends to mean less options. Compare that with windows where you could easily have many configurations you can see why alot of engineering programs run on windows because you can have access to more hardware options and aren't stuck with Apple. As for Linux it's hard to find Linux desktop that is easy to use especially with alot of people growing up using windows. Sure phones and tablets have nice and intuitive os but I have yet to see one that can compete with windows on the desktop. Also I don't think Apple falling out with nvidia helps either as unfortunately nvidia is fairly dominant in the engineering space. Most companies I have been at strictly use nvidia gpus. Anyways I think windows is so big for reasons other than just current market share. 

[Kisai]

51 minutes ago, kumicota said:

Why isn't steam deck running linux?

The Steamdeck isn't a "computer", in the same way a Nintendo Switch isn't an Linux SmartTV. That may be hardware that runs Linux, but it's not a device designed to run an off-the-shelf OS. So calling the Steamdeck a linux computer is dishonest. It's a game console that runs windows games, not Linux-native games.

 

Here's a better analogy. A Windows computer is Milk. A Linux computer is water. A Steamdeck is almondmilk... very expensive to make, and is narrowly focused to people who are allergic to regular milk but not allergic to almonds. If you just want water, anything can run water and it costs less than milk and almondmilk.

 

A steamdeck is about as much Linux as any other proprietary device like a smartphone or smarttv running linux that you can't install an off-the-shelf linux distro on. You install an off-the-shelf linux distro on a steamdeck, and you will have no input without a USB docking station and a desktop keyboard and mouse.

[HenrySalayne]

On 4/10/2023 at 4:15 AM, DrMacintosh said:

2.) Software compatibility. The reality is that Microsoft has an effective monopoly on consumer operating systems. The impact this has on production software cannot be understated. There are very few programs that exist on macOS that were not created for Windows first. Those few apps, like Final Cut Pro or Logic Pro were created by Apple themselves, and do not have mass consumer appeal. 

This is factually wrong. Logic was bought by Apple in 2002 and was available for Windows and Macintosh up to the acquisition.

The core for Final Cut was also created before Apple acquired the development team - for Windows and Macintosh.

 

On 4/10/2023 at 4:15 AM, DrMacintosh said:

I want the Mac to occupy at least a third of the marketshare of personal computers. Why? Because I want to see fundamental changes and technology improvements from Microsoft. Windows 11 is a fresh coat on paint on an otherwise historic structure. It's old, it's clunky, it's slow, and it runs on inefficient hardware. The only good thing about it is the software library. 

Apple's inside and preview access to newer hard- and software and their "everything you do we can do better" approach might be the biggest problem. They control the hardware, they control the software and they are your biggest competitor - it sucks to develop something novel for Mac or iOS.

 

What we actually need is an competing operating system that is not hardware locked. Mac is not a competitor to Windows.

You can pay for Windows 11 Pro and Microsoft will still stuff your computer with bloatware borderline close to malware (TikTok is installed by default ). And they will forcefully feed their software (Edge) down your throat. This is the audacity of a company without competition and at this point regulators need to step in - again.

[DrMacintosh]

46 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

What we actually need is an competing operating system that is not hardware locked.

There isn't anyone else beside Apple who has a competing operating system. It can't be any variant of Linux because its premise is being free and open source. Linux also has nearly infinite barriers to entry because doing something as simple as mounting a volume on Linux can require a google search. Chrome OS is not a real desktop OS so that is out of the picture. 

 

The fact that you can install Windows on "you own hardware" does not really appeal to the majority of consumers, it applies to even less people when you consider laptops. 

 

Apple is the only company with the financials and the technological ability to challenge Windows in any way, but since they won't beat Windows machines on price, we are unlikely to see the Mac grow outside of 1/3 of the market. With the buying power of the average American going down over the period of the last few decades, we are unlikely to see that growth ever happen. Microsoft will remain the monopolistic OS and people will deal with it forever. 

[Arika]

9 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Linux also has nearly infinite barriers to entry because doing something as simple as mounting a volume on Linux can require a google search

Shhhhh, you can't say that! everything is always the user's fault!

 

Unless the issue is on windows, then it's microsoft's fault

or the issue is on iOS or MacOS, then it's Apple's fault

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

everything is always the user's fault!

I mean... far more often true lol

[WolframaticAlpha]

10 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Linux also has nearly infinite barriers to entry because doing something as simple as mounting a volume on Linux can require a google search

I get what you are trying to say, but if you are running any of the popular user distributions, volumes are a) automounted or b) mounted through gparted, both of which are analogous to windows file explorer automount and windows disk management. Only time I ever needed to go into a terminal and mount something was with hfs+ or apfs drives. And as a plus, you can read many more filesystems eg zfs, btrfs etc on linux easily but can't do that on windows.

 

Linux's main issue, I believe is focus. Linux is only the kernel and Linux based OSes are really tech stacks. Since everyone runs their own projects, there is no cohesive vision to get the entire os stack from point A to point B. Instead everyone runs off and does their own thing. It is just one of the things that a lack of a company running the entire show causes. So yes, linux may not ever be competitive on the desktop side.

12 hours ago, Kisai said:

The Steamdeck isn't a "computer", in the same way a Nintendo Switch isn't an Linux SmartTV. That may be hardware that runs Linux, but it's not a device designed to run an off-the-shelf OS. So calling the Steamdeck a linux computer is dishonest. It's a game console that runs windows games, not Linux-native games.

I wonder why their promo pics include people using it as a computer then...

Spoiler

 

Or have its faqs answer questions about its PC-like functionality...
 

Spoiler

Or say that it is a PC...
Steam Deck - Steam Deck Windows drivers are now available - Steam News (steampowered.com)

Spoiler

 

On 4/10/2023 at 7:25 AM, Kisai said:

I swear, the Linux cult still enjoys calling the Android phone Linux, when it's... not. Now they're doing that with the Steamdeck.

I don't see a lot of people saying android == linux. It is more so a heavily customized os using linux as a base/kernel or can be termed as linux-based. There is a reason why Linux on mobile phones doesn't contain android as one of the distros

[Kisai]

26 minutes ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

I get what you are trying to say, but if you are running any of the popular user distributions, volumes are a) automounted or b) mounted through gparted, both of which are analogous to windows file explorer automount and windows disk management. Only time I ever needed to go into a terminal and mount something was with hfs+ or apfs drives. And as a plus, you can read many more filesystems eg zfs, btrfs etc on linux easily but can't do that on windows.

 

I wonder why their promo pics include people using it as a computer then...

 

Or have its faqs answer questions about its PC-like functionality...
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Or say that it is a PC...
Steam Deck - Steam Deck Windows drivers are now available - Steam News (steampowered.com)

  Hide contents

 

*whoosh*

Incomplete drivers! Even on Linux! Not just Windows!

 

No the Steamdeck is not a PC, it's not marketed as a PC, and you can't just run any off-the-shelf OS on it. You need a proprietary driver bundle that clearly isn't in the WHQL to run Windows, and non-existing in the stock Linux kernel.

 

Running Linux on "anything" is not the same as "Anything can run Linux, and be productive"

 

Using the Steamdeck as a desktop PC, is as stupid as using a laptop as a desktop PC, throw in the insane demand of "Can it run Linux" and you'll often find the answer is "No, only a proprietary kernel". Just like mobile phones and smartTV's. That may be a Linux kernel, but it is not a Linux OS.

 

Are you going to wait around for your investment in computer hardware to depreciate to nothing before it gets proper working Linux drivers, or even Windows drivers? No. You're not. 

 

People are only going to buy a device and use the OS it comes with, come hell or high water.  If the manufacturer decides to stop supporting it because they're a bunch of greedy shmucks, *cough*google*nvidia*nintendo*cough* nobody has the technical knowhow to make an old device run a new OS. And we already know the Steamdeck is never running Windows 11. So effectively the Steamdeck was already old hardware when it was released.

 

Apple, has a far longer commitment to hardware than most of the PC ecosystem, and as a consequence, people can, and do hang on to hardware longer. The last Intel mac was released in March 2022. That's only 1 year ago. Apple releasing a new M-series chip every year isn't going to work out for them until all the Intel hardware is out of the retail channel AND out of support. So Apple can't make those Intel mac's unsupported until 2029. All 2017 models of mac can run 2022 (Ventura)'s version of MacOS. 2012-2022 Intel macs can all run Windows 10. Zero can run Windows 11.

 

Or you know... Virtualize it...

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-and-m2-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c

 

As far as I know, or even care, Apple likely didn't take into account the replacement cycle when they started on the ARM M series. Seeing as the same chip is used in the iPad Pro's, Macbook Air, and Macbook Pro, what would have made the most sense is only refreshing the iPad's and Macbooks on alternating years. There isn't going to be a breakthrough in performance. You only gain significant performance on years there is a die shrink. No die shrink, no point. M1 for iPad Pro and Macbook Air, M2 for Macbook Pro and MacMini, M3 for iPad Pro, and Macbook Air, M4 for Macbook Pro and MacMini, etc.

 

Like that is a liability of making your own chips that you don't have with an off-the-shelf part. Apple has always been critized for putting lame Intel iGPU chips in things like the Macbook Air and MacMini, because those iGPU's suck. A Lot. A 12" Intel laptop is extremely pathetic even under a fair comparison to a 12" ARM laptop, yet Apple not only knocks it out of the park on performance, but it runs 10 more home runs before the Intel laptop realizes anything has happened.

 

Apple is ahead, in the market segments that it has a reasonable offering in (Eg Macbook Air, MacMini) despite proprietary parts.

 

[HenrySalayne]

16 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

There isn't anyone else beside Apple who has a competing operating system.

[...]

Apple is the only company with the financials and the technological ability to challenge Windows in any way, [...]

This is a fallacy. Apple does not make a competing operating system. Mac OS is only a part of a (now) inseparable ecosystem. There is simply no choice. A hardware company cannot choose between Mac and Windows. Users cannot choose between Windows and Mac (especially since the demise of Bootcamp). Mac OS is only a small part of the whole package.

 

Apple's PC ecosystem dominating the market would be a dystopian future. You don't want that. The OS of an all-totalitarian ecosystem has inherently little impact on a hardware-pluralistic OS-totalitarian market on the other side.

 

If Apple want to contribute to a OS-pluralistic market (and this will NEVER happen) they could license Mac OS to hardware companies or even end-users. There is no technical reason Mac OS couldn't run on different hardware.

 

16 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

The fact that you can install Windows on "you own hardware" does not really appeal to the majority of consumers, it applies to even less people when you consider laptops. 

This is irrelevant. It's not about end-users, it's about the OS being a separate good. You cannot buy Mac OS, you can only buy an Apple computer. And this doesn't give you a Mac OS license as an entity. You could call it firmware at this point.

 

16 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

but since they won't beat Windows machines on price, we are unlikely to see the Mac grow outside of 1/3 of the market. With the buying power of the average American going down over the period of the last few decades, we are unlikely to see that growth ever happen. Microsoft will remain the monopolistic OS and people will deal with it forever. 

Apple has an operating margin for 2022 of 30%, Asus had an operating margin of 2%. Apple is quite literally a money printing machine and this is still their prime objective.

[mr moose]

6 hours ago, Arika S said:

Shhhhh, you can't say that! everything is always the user's fault!

 

Unless the issue is on windows, then it's microsoft's fault

or the issue is on iOS or MacOS, then it's Apple's fault

 

Computers in the old days used to just crash if your IQ was less than or not equal to 0x000001,   now that's a user error.

 

 

 

 

 

[WolframaticAlpha]

7 hours ago, Kisai said:

Incomplete drivers! Even on Linux! Not just Windows!

So, if tomorrow AMD launches a GPU with incomplete yet largely working drivers, will it suddenly stop being a GPU?

 

Also, the drivers have substantially improved, both for WIndows and Linux since it's launch and valve has addressed many of the initial user complaints faced at launch. 

7 hours ago, Kisai said:

No the Steamdeck is not a PC, it's not marketed as a PC

I just showed you valve literally saying it is a PC. It says so in it's support pages and shows how it's used as a pc in it's marketing photos. What else proof do you need lol.

7 hours ago, Kisai said:

You need a proprietary driver bundle that clearly isn't in the WHQL to run Windows, and non-existing in the stock Linux kernel.

Nvidia GPUs on linux are non existent in the linux kernel. Do they stop being GPUs then? No, you just install the proprietary driver bundle which makes the thing work. 

7 hours ago, Kisai said:

Using the Steamdeck as a desktop PC, is as stupid as using a laptop as a desktop PC

So everyone making and using laptop docks is wrong?

7 hours ago, Kisai said:

throw in the insane demand of "Can it run Linux" and you'll often find the answer is "No, only a proprietary kernel". Just like mobile phones and smartTV's. That may be a Linux kernel, but it is not a Linux OS.

OK, you need to clarify that. Because the Steam deck runs a full fat linux os, with a KDE plasma desktop preinstalled.

7 hours ago, Kisai said:

And we already know the Steamdeck is never running Windows 11. So effectively the Steamdeck was already old hardware when it was released.

Wrong on 2 counts.

1. It can run windows 11

Steam Support :: Steam Deck - Windows Resources (steampowered.com)

2. Level of OS support doesn't define how old a device is. By your logic, since some machines from 2017 can run Win11 better than Steam Deck, hence they are somehow "newer" than the machine released in 2022?

 

Note: My entire argument pertains to the Steam Deck being a linux machine. Not other deficiencies of Linux.

[rrats]

I'm not surprised at all. And I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens to iPhones. So little change between products results in less new purchases.

[Donut417]

37 minutes ago, rrats said:

I'm not surprised at all. And I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens to iPhones. So little change between products results in less new purchases.

That and the economy is in a funny place right now and not ha ha funny. 

[kumicota]

1 hour ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Note: My entire argument pertains to the Steam Deck being a linux machine. Not other deficiencies of Linux.

After the Kasai first reply, I began to ignore her. Just from it I saw that she doesn't know how steamdeck, linux and drivers works, or she's a troll or she's very illeterate

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

So, if tomorrow AMD launches a GPU with incomplete yet largely working drivers, will it suddenly stop being a GPU?

If hardware vendors released working drivers with their hardware, a lot of the whargarble about how good it is would stop being an issue.

 

The Steamdeck:

- Does not run windows out of the box

- Does not run an off-the-shelf Linux out of the box

- Runs pretty much just Windows games, a handful of broken Linux games, and nearly-zero anti-cheat/DRM-encumbered games.

 

Look at how much egg is on Intel's face after they released their dedicated GPU's with extremely broken drivers. You don't win awards for releasing broken hardware, and there is no point releasing hardware that has missing, incomplete, or broken drivers. That just exacerbates the problem and any subsequent hardware will be given the stink-eye. "Oh yeah, Intel, remember how their hardware didn't work upon release? Yeah, no way I'm buying their hardware this year." AMD has also been historically much worse at releasing good drivers for all their products, going all the way back to Windows 98, and that sloppy engineering has haunted them ever since.

 

2 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Also, the drivers have substantially improved, both for WIndows and Linux since it's launch and valve has addressed many of the initial user complaints faced at launch. 

And why didn't that exist on day 1? Because that was not the device they were selling.

 

2 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

I just showed you valve literally saying it is a PC.

Valve also hints at Halflife 3 every so often. They have a tendency to promise and not deliver. The Steamdeck is not a full PC because you can not install Windows or Linux to it without any externalities. In that way it's even less useful than a laptop.

 

2 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

 

Nvidia GPUs on linux are non existent in the linux kernel. Do they stop being GPUs then? No, you just install the proprietary driver bundle which makes the thing work. 

And yet, you can not do that out of the box. The same reason you can't install Ubuntu on an Google Pixel or Samsung Galaxy.

 

You seem to want to ignore the fact that if the OS does not have drivers, you can't magic them out of thin air. If you install an OS on a device, and you end up with no storage driver. It is dead. If you end up with no video driver, it's likely dead, no ethernet driver, it's dead. 

 

I have decades of experience running things remotely, and let me tell you, remote KVM and IPMI are two different animals. Linux supports neither out of the box. If you manage to setup your installer to install IPMI on a device that supports IPMI, then you can fix everything post-install from a network terminal. If you only have a ssh terminal on a device that has not installed network drivers, and have no keyboard on a device that uses a virtual keyboard driven by the GUI you can't get into, you are stuck, aren't you?

 

That is why linux on a SmartTV, Smartphone, Tablet, or Game console that is not itself designed as a computer becomes a problem. You are very likely to "miss" something, and thus you can not install the OS again and fix your mistake, It's now a dead device.

 

The only thing the steamdeck has going for it, is that it's supported by Valve, a company that tends to promise and then not-deliver things. Remember the SteamMachine? Where was Valve's commitment to producing that? 

 

At least Apple is going to be producing Apple devices, and Apple OS's, as long as there is demand for them.

 

I doubt Valve will produce another Steamdeck, given it's history. And seeing as how enthusiasm for the SteamOS completely evaporated, I will assume SteamOS will just up and die at the same time and we will be back to where we all were in 2014. 

 

A game console should a known quantity, not a tinker-toy. If Valve is serious about supporting the Steamdeck, then there should be annual hardware refreshes like Apple, or every 4 years, putting it closer to the lifespan of a mobile phone. But I doubt it. It does not sell in the quantities needed, because it largely offers a sub-par experience to both a gaming laptop and a Nintendo Switch. That is something they can't complete on because they don't build their own CPU's like Apple. Thus they have to rely on the "ultrabook" SoC type of x86-64 parts. Which have always been extremely sub-par performers, and are noisy as a consequence.

 

Anyway, I think YOU, seem to object to the idea that the steamdeck isn't a PC, because it isn't by definition in a way we use the term PC. Going back to my original statement, of how Linux enthusiasts latch on to the tinyiest breadcrumbs when something runs a Linux Kernel, but ignore the fact the hardware is full of proprietary driver blobs, the antithesis of Linux software political goals. Thus it is not a Linux OS by how Linux users define Linux. You can not have it both ways. Just because something runs a fork of a Linux kernel, does not itself make it a Linux OS.

 

A dictionary version of "PC" is so encompassing it would include smartwatches, smartTV's and smartFridges. The definition of PC we all use as tech enthusiasts is:

 

"Any device that you can run productivity applications, games, internet access, and watch videos on, that is not gatekept by the manufacturer due to decisions made by the operating system and drivers."

Nobody is going to argue a smartphone is a PC. Some smartphones might be as usable as a PC, but you aren't going to spend 8 hours a day using MS Word on a smartphone as your only device. The same is true of the steamdeck.

 

If you have to dock the device to use it like a desktop computer, then it's not a desktop PC isn't it? The reason there is a distinction at all is because a desktop PC, alone, can't do anything. It needs power, keyboard, mouse, and a monitor to be useful. A smartphone, or a steamdeck you are supposed to do everything on the device, and if you dock it in order to "use it as a desktop", well you just spent a whole lot of money on hardware you aren't using. It's not a PC. Smartphones and the Steamdeck are closer to game consoles, that the manufacturer has decided what you can run on it, and nothing else. Just because the Steamdeck casts some illusion of being a factory-unlocked game console that can run windows games, doesn't mean it does that flawlessless, and I don't see game developers embracing the steamdeck at all.

 

Game developers do not develop games for Linux, for the same reason they don't develop games for MacOS. It does not justify the extra work when the platform is not seen stable. Did anyone build games for the Ouya? The NGage? Stadia? Yes. How much did it cost to produce that port over just releasing it on the PS4/PS5? 

 

It's quite frankly baffling why Apple doesn't just steal Nintendo's thunder and just release a "game console" model of the iPad. All they really need to do is release a 32GB model with a SD-Card slot and no rear camera unit. The most expensive part has always been the screen. The "iPod Touch" was what we had before, and it was just an iphone without the camera and 3G radio of the iphone with a cheaper screen. If you put a SD card slot on the device, and allow the games to be self-contained on the SD card (even switching to Mac with the same card) you open up an option that Nintendo hasn't done, allowing people to play their games on whichever device they are most comfortable using, instead of the present situation of "download game to phone", "download again to new phone/ipad", "download yet again, maybe even forced to buy a third version to the Mac". Then if you lose/break the card, go to one of your devices and say "card has been lost" and it will revoke the card from being mountable. Reformat it if you want to reuse it.

 

 

[WolframaticAlpha]

53 minutes ago, Kisai said:

- Does not run windows out of the box

Since, most laptops don't come with Linux OOTB, does a laptop running linux stop being a Linux machine?

54 minutes ago, Kisai said:

- Does not run an off-the-shelf Linux out of the box

But it does. It runs Arch Linux with some tweaks. 

55 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Look at how much egg is on Intel's face after they released their dedicated GPU's with extremely broken drivers.

Bad product is still a product. You wouldn't say that the ARC A770 is not a gpu. It just happens to not be a very good one. 

56 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Valve also hints at Halflife 3 every so often. They have a tendency to promise and not deliver. The Steamdeck is not a full PC because you can not install Windows or Linux to it without any externalities. In that way it's even less useful than a laptop.

What externalities? A usb drive? In that way, nearly every desktop linux machine stops being one. They ship a bootloader, give you the drivers, docs etc. And how does Valve not giving HL3 relate to how a steam deck can run Windows or Linux. I just showed you that the docs exist, and I will attach some vids in case you mistrust valve to such a degree.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Anyway, I think YOU, seem to object to the idea that the steamdeck isn't a PC, because it isn't by definition in a way we use the term PC. Going back to my original statement, of how Linux enthusiasts latch on to the tinyiest breadcrumbs when something runs a Linux Kernel, but ignore the fact the hardware is full of proprietary driver blobs, the antithesis of Linux software political goals. Thus it is not a Linux OS by how Linux users define Linux. You can not have it both ways. Just because something runs a fork of a Linux kernel, does not itself make it a Linux OS.

 

1. I assume that in this thread, we are referring to only Desktop based linuxes to be "Linux". Which the deck happens to have preinstalled(Arch linux+KDE plasma+ base utilities). You can install typical Linux software, that is web browsers, document editors, media players etc etc on a deck too.

2. Most people don't say that Android IS linux. Android is based off Linux. Similarly, the systems of the embedded devices also are linux based. Based is the keyword.

3. The steam deck doesn't run a fork of Linux kernel. It runs a full fat linux kernel with a full fat OS on top with a full fat desktop environment. This is literally what we refer to as Linux(see pt. 1). It just happens to have some extra tweaks, eg proton preinstalled, power management etc tweaked as compared to a general arch linux install.

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

"Any device that you can run productivity applications, games, internet access, and watch videos on, that is not gatekept by the manufacturer due to decisions made by the operating system and drivers."

Nobody is going to argue a smartphone is a PC. Some smartphones might be as usable as a PC, but you aren't going to spend 8 hours a day using MS Word on a smartphone as your only device. The same is true of the steamdeck.

 

If you have to dock the device to use it like a desktop computer, then it's not a desktop PC isn't it?

Sure, it is not a desktop PC. But I was talking about how the deck is a linux machine. And it is a PC in the same sense that a Dell Laptop is a PC. It may not be a desktop PC, but it is still a PC. It is not constrained by drivers. There are linux and windows drivers available and is not constrained by OS either, since there is a bootloader, that supports multiboot. 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Just because the Steamdeck casts some illusion of being a factory-unlocked game console that can run windows games

Is it an illusion if it can do it? You can install windows and run games natively, or just use linux and run windows games through emulation. 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

That is why linux on a SmartTV, Smartphone, Tablet, or Game console that is not itself designed as a computer becomes a problem. You are very likely to "miss" something, and thus you can not install the OS again and fix your mistake, It's now a dead device.

They are running a linux kernel, and although colloquially, linux is used to refer to desktop implementations, if someone says a smart device runs linux, they can be also referring to it running the linux kernel, which is what linux in reality is. Considering how abused the Linux word is, such machines are usually referred to as Linux based.

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

And yet, you can not do that out of the box.

 

Yes, but does the Nvidia GPU transmogrify into something else? Does it become a cat perhaps? Or a refrigerator?

[HenrySalayne]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

The Steamdeck is not a full PC because you can not install Windows or Linux to it without any externalities.

That's a very flawed metric.

You cannot install Windows 11 on many devices because because it lacks network drivers but you can't get into the OS without signing into a Microsoft which you can't do without network drivers which you cannot install without logging into a Microsoft account which you cannot do without the drivers...

You get the point.

 

So my 2022 laptop which was send to me with Windows 11 pre-installed is not a full PC because I cannot install Windows without any externalities. Good to know...

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

A game console should a known quantity, not a tinker-toy. If Valve is serious about supporting the Steamdeck, then there should be annual hardware refreshes like Apple, or every 4 years, putting it closer to the lifespan of a mobile phone. But I doubt it. It does not sell in the quantities needed, because it largely offers a sub-par experience to both a gaming laptop and a Nintendo Switch. That is something they can't complete on because they don't build their own CPU's like Apple. Thus they have to rely on the "ultrabook" SoC type of x86-64 parts. Which have always been extremely sub-par performers, and are noisy as a consequence.

Apple is closer to 2 year update cycles than annually.

And I think you missed the development a little bit. Apples improvements to M2 were disappointing compared to the intergenerational increases AMD and Intel achieved for their respective processors. A theoretical AMD Zen 4 Mobile SoC is probably as powerful and as efficient as an M2 derivative under load.

 

But that doesn't really matter anyway. The Steamdeck is a hand-held gaming PC while Apple notebooks are the opposite of a gaming device. That's two completely different markets.

[Kisai]

2 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

That's a very flawed metric.

You cannot install Windows 11 on many devices because because it lacks network drivers but you can't get into the OS without signing into a Microsoft which you can't do without network drivers which you cannot install without logging into a Microsoft account which you cannot do without the drivers...

You get the point.

 

So my 2022 laptop which was send to me with Windows 11 pre-installed is not a full PC because I cannot install Windows without any externalities. Good to know...

 

When you buy a Windows 11 device, The OS is already on it. If you want to install Windows 11 on anything, you need a USB port for the USB drive, a wired Ethernet adapter, and a keyboard at the minimum. When you restore the OS on to Dell laptops yourself, YOU STILL NEED ALL OF THOSE.

 

Also please don't confuse the "Microsoft account". You need that account after it's installed the retail OS onto a device that didn't come with it. If you're installing an OEM OS you would have done the correct thing and installed the drivers into the OS image before giving it to the end user. 

 

Installing an off-the-shelf Linux OS is no different from trying to install retail Windows OS in this case. You install it, there will be no ethernet, no keyboard, no mouse, no video. You need a version of the OS that has the drivers for the device on it first, because the device has no physical keyboard from which to actually install it.

 

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/1B71-EDF2-EB6D-2BB3

Quote

Steam Deck Recovery Instructions

 

 

1. Download the recovery image here (click).
2. Prepare a USB key (8GB minimum) with the recovery image:
3. Use a USB-C adapter or hub to plug the boot disk in.
4. Shut down your Steam Deck if it isn't already off. Hold 'Volume Down' and click the Power Button - when you hear the chime, let go of the Volume Down button, and you'll be booted into the Boot Manager.
5. In the Boot Manager, boot from the 'EFI USB Device' (your USB key)
6. The screen will go dark while it's booting - give it a minute.
7. Once booted you will be in a desktop environment, you can navigate using the trackpad and trigger.

 

Go ahead and try to install Windows or Linux on it using just a USB-C drive. You are unlikely to get past the login assuming it even knows there is a "mouse" that an on-screen-keyboard. You need to prepare a specific image with the correct drivers for Linux or Windows so that you actually can get the on-screen keyboard. Otherwise you will only ever be able to use the steamdeck in an extremely crippled state and can't take it off a docking station.

 

This doesn't even get into power management.

[suicidalfranco]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

When you buy a Windows 11 device, The OS is already on it. If you want to install Windows 11 on anything, you need a USB port for the USB drive, a wired Ethernet adapter, and a keyboard at the minimum. When you restore the OS on to Dell laptops yourself, YOU STILL NEED ALL OF THOSE.

 

Also please don't confuse the "Microsoft account". You need that account after it's installed the retail OS onto a device that didn't come with it. If you're installing an OEM OS you would have done the correct thing and installed the drivers into the OS image before giving it to the end user. 

 

Installing an off-the-shelf Linux OS is no different from trying to install retail Windows OS in this case. You install it, there will be no ethernet, no keyboard, no mouse, no video. You need a version of the OS that has the drivers for the device on it first, because the device has no physical keyboard from which to actually install it.

 

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/1B71-EDF2-EB6D-2BB3

 

Go ahead and try to install Windows or Linux on it using just a USB-C drive. You are unlikely to get past the login assuming it even knows there is a "mouse" that an on-screen-keyboard. You need to prepare a specific image with the correct drivers for Linux or Windows so that you actually can get the on-screen keyboard. Otherwise you will only ever be able to use the steamdeck in an extremely crippled state and can't take it off a docking station.

 

This doesn't even get into power management.

 

Kisai not knowing what he's talking about as always.

Move along nothing to see here

[Kisai]

26 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

 

Kisai not knowing what he's talking about as always.

Move along nothing to see here

I see you didn't watch 90 seconds of the video. If you can't contribute to a thread, leave.

 

In case you haven't seen the name of this thread it's "Apple suspended production of M2 chips" and yet this entire page has been a bunch of people upset that I said the Streamdeck isn't a Linux PC, or even "a PC" by any definition that would be accepted.

 

The issue is not "it can't run Windows 11" it's that you can't install it or a Linux install off the shelf and have it work correctly out of the box, as CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED IN THE VIDEO.

 

When you Bootcamp an Intel Mac, it at least works out of the box.

[leadeater]

8 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

You cannot install Windows 11 on many devices because because it lacks network drivers but you can't get into the OS without signing into a Microsoft which you can't do without network drivers which you cannot install without logging into a Microsoft account which you cannot do without the drivers...

You get the point.

Not that this really matters, at least for the topic anyway, but working network and a Microsoft account is not required to install Windows 11. There is a big difference between Microsoft trying to make it appear as if this is the case and it actually being so. If you have functioning networking during the install and setup process then it'll make it seem like you must use a Microsoft account but even then you don't actually. Do the install and setup without networking and it will fall back to local account setup prompt.

 

If you create your USB install media with Rufus you can get it to modify the install to remove all of the above as well and make it install like Window of old, it's an automatic prompt and a tick box when you select a Windows 11 ISO. Along with removing TPM and Secure Boot checks etc. There is absolutely nothing about Windows 11 that make anything actually mandatory, not a single thing. It's just a little more annoying than before, that's all. 

 

As for the whole PC blah blah thing, most things like this are computers. That's not the issue at all. But if I want to install an OS on something and I don't care about no audio or whatever else that's a "me" thing and it would still be usable for whatever it is a choose to install said OS for.

 

2 hours ago, Kisai said:

When you Bootcamp an Intel Mac, it at least works out of the box.

Except quite often not really. Windows on Macs often had many problems ranging from "quality of life" to actually serious flaw. Multiple generations of iMacs with Windows installed could manage fans and thermal properly and would actually overheat. Trackpads would often be barely functional, no bump or palm rejection and lucky if gestures worked properly. Many schools used to dual boot Macs and I suffered through managing them for a long time, to the point of having to open hundreds of them and solder a resistor to the temp probe connector so they wouldn't roast in Windows. Bootcamp sucked. Certainly wasn't "it just works". It worked enough most of the time.

[suicidalfranco]

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED IN THE VIDEO

Either you blind or you really are just trolling at this point

[HenrySalayne]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Not that this really matters, at least for the topic anyway, but working network and a Microsoft account is not required to install Windows 11. There is a big difference between Microsoft trying to make it appear as if this is the case and it actually being so. If you have functioning networking during the install and setup process then it'll make it seem like you must use a Microsoft account but even then you don't actually. Do the install and setup without networking and it will fall back to local account setup prompt.

Microsoft changed the behaviour with every semi-annually major release. Out of the box Windows doesn't let you skip the Microsoft account any more (even without network).

You could use the command

OOBE\BYPASSNRO

in a command prompt and it would let you create a local account, but it is unclear if this will work in the future.

Or you could use Audit Mode to install the driver and then log into your Microsoft account.

 

However, this is the kind of arrogance only a multi-billion dollar company without competition could come up with.

Imagine you would buy a $200 MSRP piece of software from any other company and you would get stuck in the out-of-box-experience dialogue. There should be no need to modify the files or open a command prompt to make it work. That's ridiculous. Nobody should accept that.

 

[Arika]

3 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

Microsoft changed the behaviour with every semi-annually major release. Out of the box Windows doesn't let you skip the Microsoft account any more (even without network).

i did a fresh install of W11 2 weeks ago and when it asks for your MS account i just typed in "admin" for the account name and password, and it went to the next steps.