Apple suspended production of M2 Chips due to falling demand for Macs

[leadeater]

14 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

in a command prompt and it would let you create a local account, but it is unclear if this will work in the future.

Or just create the USB install media with Rufus like I mentioned 

 

 

It'll always work, the only way it won't is if they stop allowing local account and AD management which isn't ever going to happen. While there remains an enterprise way to manage Windows devices those same ways can be utilized to make Windows do what you actually want.

[HenrySalayne]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

i did a fresh install of W11 2 weeks ago and when it asks for your MS account i just typed in "admin" for the account name and password, and it went to the next steps.

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Or just create the USB install media with Rufus like I mentioned 

These are (probably) good tips but it's still a workaround for a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

[Obioban]

Per IDC, the PC industry as a whole is down 29%:

https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS50565723

 

Per their numbers, Apple is still doing worse (I guess we'll find out for sure shortly, when their earning are released), but this is probably more part of a larger trend. I'd say three driving factors:

1) Lots of people bought computers during covid, which means they don't need a computer for a while.

2) The compare is to the elevated for covid numbers. So, if numbers were up 30% for covid and down 30% now, it's actually just a return to the pre covid norm.

3) inflation means people have less disposable income, and getting another year or two out of an older computer instead of dropping $1000+ on a new computer is a reasonably easy way to stretch your funds

 

Also possible M2 production has ceased because M3 is coming soon.

[Kisai]

9 hours ago, leadeater said:

 

As for the whole PC blah blah thing, most things like this are computers. That's not the issue at all. But if I want to install an OS on something and I don't care about no audio or whatever else that's a "me" thing and it would still be usable for whatever it is a choose to install said OS for.

Again the point was that things like Android Phones/Tablets/SmartTV's and the Steamdeck are not marketed as Linux PC's. Linux fans want to claim them as such, but that is not what the device, or it's OS is. A touch screen is not a keyboard, at worst, it's a mouse. Anyone who's tried to use a SSH session on an iphone to fix things while sitting in a hospital waiting room/funeral/convention floor/hotel room (I've had ALL of these) will tell you that these portable devices without a keyboard are not a replacement for a PC.  You are going to waste hours doing something that could have taken you a few minutes.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, leadeater said:

Except quite often not really. Windows on Macs often had many problems ranging from "quality of life" to actually serious flaw. Multiple generations of iMacs with Windows installed could manage fans and thermal properly and would actually overheat. Trackpads would often be barely functional, no bump or palm rejection and lucky if gestures worked properly. Many schools used to dual boot Macs and I suffered through managing them for a long time, to the point of having to open hundreds of them and solder a resistor to the temp probe connector so they wouldn't roast in Windows. Bootcamp sucked. Certainly wasn't "it just works". It worked enough most of the time.

 

Again, Apple provided the software required to dual-boot MacOS and Windows, and the drivers it provided provided the expected experience out of the box. I'm not going to say that was the ideal driver setup because dual-booting MacOS/Windows for many was a means-to-an-end. You didn't buy Macbooks to run windows, you installed bootcamp because that expensive program or game you own only works on Windows, and parallels offered an inferior or broken experience (such as with games.)

 

Installing retail Windows 11 on the Steamdeck does not provide even a working experience out of the box. That is not something you can be provided with, legally either. You have to click through a bunch of EULA's for installing retail drivers. When you buy a desktop PC, it comes with Windows 11 because of agreements with the OEM, and all the correct drivers have been installed. When you install a Retail copy of Windows 11 on a Desktop that maybe came with Windows 7 or 8, it will have access to drivers that were valid for hardware that was released at that point in the OS's life, which for most old computers will be everything.

 

If and when Microsoft decides that it can sell a retail copy of Windows 11 for ARM that works on the M1 and M2

https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/16/23602718/microsoft-windows-11-apple-mac-m1-m2-support-parallels-virtual-machines

Maybe we will see a revisiting of running ARM Windows on ARM-based Mac's by yet another form of Bootcamp, but right now you can't boot ARM Windows the same way you can on an Intel Mac. However the parallels option is not that different from how Parallels worked before, and may even give you access to more software than MacOS alone.

 

But not everyone is going to need that. I can see enterprise customers wanting to use M1/M2 Macbook air's instead of 12" Dell laptops because they're actually quiet and fast, which the Intel-based ultrabooks running U chips are utter garbage at running anything, and laptops running H chips sound like jet engines when used as a desktop replacement. Those M2 parts in a Macbook Air? runs laps around the U parts.

 

But we haven't discussed cost of all these things, and I can make the same argument against spending $200 on a retail copy of Windows 11 on the steamdeck as I will for spending that much on running Windows 11 on the M2 inside parallels. Unless you physically need access to something only provided by Windows, you are literately trying to use a device marketed as one product as another. With the steamdeck, you basically end up $700 (cheapest model) paperweight if you install Windows 11 on it, because 25% of the cost went into a Windows license you didn't need and took up a quarter of the storage space in the process.

 

If you are buying a steamdeck, you aren't going to be using it as a desktop PC, if you wanted that you could buy an Intel NUC mini-PC for half the price. The Steamdeck occupies this space where it's not a laptop or a desktop, and basically tries to be a Nintendo Switch, without having the performance necessary to run games at comparable performance or battery life. It's a nice try by Valve, but there are very practical reasons why it can not, and those reasons are why every single "consoleized PC experience" has been a disaster. PC games are just not designed for it, they are designed only for a desktop experience. iGPU parts are often laughed at and not even considered as viable performers.

 

If would be a different thing if Apple decided they wanted this market, seeing as they have the leverage for it (eg the app store on the iphone/ipad/MacOS) and a SoC that is much more performant, but do you think Apple wants to release it's own Nintendo Switch killer? No, because the Nintendo Switch costs $400, the Steamdeck costs $500 and the cheapest iPad is $600, and is not the M1 model. But Apple could nerf the cameras on an iPad and add Switch-like joycon-style controls (I hate these, but work with me here) and could eat Nintendo's lunch. "Hey, we will never steal your purchases. You bought it, you can use it on our future devices 10 years from now, unlike competing game consoles" (shaming the Playstation, Microsoft and Nintendo experiences)

[WhitetailAni]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

the expected experience

I don't think having to open up your iMac and manually override a temperature probe is "the expected experience."

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Again the point was that things like Android Phones/Tablets/SmartTV's and the Steamdeck are not marketed as Linux PC's. Linux fans want to claim them as such, but that is not what the device, or it's OS is. A touch screen is not a keyboard, at worst, it's a mouse. Anyone who's tried to use a SSH session on an iphone to fix things while sitting in a hospital waiting room/funeral/convention floor/hotel room (I've had ALL of these) will tell you that these portable devices without a keyboard are not a replacement for a PC.  You are going to waste hours doing something that could have taken you a few minutes.

What something is marketed as is not the same as what it is capable of doing.

We had this discussion during the GPU shortages, didn't we...

[Kisai]

43 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

I don't think having to open up your iMac and manually override a temperature probe is "the expected experience."

Compared to installing Windows 11 on a steamdeck that doesn't even start up with the screen in the right orientation and no sound.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1675200/view/3131696199122435099?gclid=CjwKCAjw8-OhBhB5EiwADyoY1So7S2QfjXF68UsYLNLVUWIxPJd9qOLp7G2wPRTzUwGMTbYxX0s3jhoCJLUQAvD_BwE

Quote

POSTED 

Thu, March 10, 2022

A few quick notes about these resources.

• For now you can only perform a full Windows install. While Steam Deck is fully capable of dual-boot, the SteamOS installer that provides a dual-boot wizard isn't ready yet.
• Also for now, you can only install Windows 10. Windows 11 requires a new BIOS that is currently in the pipe (which provides fTPM support) and will be shipping soon.
• Drivers are provided for GPU, WiFi, and Bluetooth. Audio drivers are still in the works with AMD and other parties - but you'll still be able to use Bluetooth or USB-C audio with Windows on Deck.

Out of the box, it doesn't support Windows 11, at all (and why I originally said that!) And doesn't support Audio. Doesn't that seem more than a little stupid to market it as "A PC" ?

 

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/6121-ECCD-D643-BAA8

Quote

• To enter your product key during installation, you'll need internet. Because there are no Wi-Fi drivers at this point, you'll need a USB-C hub with an Ethernet port for internet.

Again, you can not use the Steamdeck out of the box, with Windows even now. You need installation media that has the network drivers on it, or you're going to have to use a laptop dock that has wired ethernet drivers Windows already has. So much for a $500 device when you need to add a $80 dock to use it with Windows.

 

43 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

What something is marketed as is not the same as what it is capable of doing.

We had this discussion during the GPU shortages, didn't we...

What something is marketed as, is what the company says "This is what we sold it for, this is what we are supporting it for", They do not sell it with Windows 11, so any support for Windows on the Steamdeck is like Bootcamp support on a Macbook Air. It's a stupid idea to install Windows on the device, because you bought a "cheap" device that half the cost is the screen and battery, and there are other under-performing devices you can buy that do not have a screen or battery that are half the cost and come with Windows 11.

 

An Intel RNUC13ANHI50000 (13th gen NUC i5) is the same or less cost as a Steamdeck/MacMini, Runs Windows 11 out of the box. Add a A380 GPU and you have spent the same amount of money for the same performance as the steamdeck, and yet can do a lot more with it.

 

The Steamdeck should be used what it was intended for, because you are otherwise wasting a lot of money and not using the specialized controller or touch screen. At best, you could make the argument that you want to run Windows 11 so you can watch Netflix on it, and even that I would consider an even worse investment than a Chromecast.

 

[WhitetailAni]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

What something is marketed as, is what the company says "This is what we sold it for

Yes.

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

this is what we are supporting it for"

No.

See this as one example: 

 

 

I'll leave it at that. I have no interest in responding to your other points as it's frankly not worth my time.

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, FakeKGB said:

Yes.

No.

See this as one example: 

 

 

I'll leave it at that. I have no interest in responding to your other points as it's frankly not worth my time.

You'll note that thread has the exact same argument this thread's subject is, by ME. Wow I must have a crystal ball. 

 

"Overproduce the M1, and then use it in some datacenter environment". It's unlikely they put a feature in the Mac that only benefits a third party OS. It's almost certainly for using their own hardware in some use case they likely don't intend to sell or market, just use internally.

 

And if that's the case, they can also take it away when they don't need it. If they decided to produce a data center full of M1's or M2's servers and then suddenly went "oh wait, demand's not that high, scale it back, we won't be able to absorb that much ourselves either"

 

Maybe cite the Apple document instead.

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/security/sec7d92dc49f/web

Quote

Unlike security policies on an Intel-based Mac, security policies on a Mac with Apple silicon are for each installed operating system. This means that multiple installed macOS instances with different versions and security policies are supported on the same Mac. For this reason, an operating system picker has been added to Startup Security Utility.

Now take a look at that Linux Distro:

https://asahilinux.org/2022/03/asahi-linux-alpha-release/

Quote

• M1, M1 Pro, or M1 Max machine (Mac Studio excluded)
• macOS 12.3 or later, logged in as an admin user

 

You're not installing Linux on a Mac if you can't log into it, nor can you just install it on any M1 Mac

But you're also going to be missing a pile of hardware:

Quote

What doesn’t

Everything else, but notably:

• DisplayPort
• Thunderbolt
• HDMI on the MacBooks
• Bluetooth
• GPU acceleration
• Video codec acceleration
• Neural Engine
• CPU deep idle
• Sleep mode
• Camera
• Touch Bar

Well, so much for doing anything productive on it. Guess you better use those M1's you've been saving as a Linux STB and instead use them as a USB file server... oh wait...

Quote

Not yet, but coming soon:

• USB3
• Speakers
• Display controller (backlight brightness control, V-Sync, proper DPMS)

 

Again, even back on the Steamdeck discussion. Valve offers drivers, a year late for the steamdeck. Apple? Doesn't even offer drivers for this third party OS. By the time support for all this other hardware shows up through reverse engineering, like in every Linux release, the hardware will have been EOL'd. That's why Linux is often installed on EOL'd desktops, because that gives it some extra life it wouldn't have with an EOL OS. Servers? Often not a problem because the servers are usually behind the curve, and big companies have a vested interest in Linux Servers. Not desktops.

 

[WhitetailAni]

1 minute ago, Kisai said:

You'll note that thread has the exact same argument this thread's subject is, by ME. Wow I must have a crystal ball.

And I disagree with your argument.

I'm not going to argue with you as I've seen that it will never go anywhere. Bye!

[leadeater]

10 hours ago, Kisai said:

Again the point was that things like Android Phones/Tablets/SmartTV's and the Steamdeck are not marketed as Linux PC's

How many PC are marketed as Linux PCs? 0.1%? 0.01%? 0.001%?

 

No PC needs to be marketed as one since every single one can run Linux.

 

10 hours ago, Kisai said:

Again, Apple provided the software required to dual-boot MacOS and Windows, and the drivers it provided provided the expected experience out of the box.

But it didn't. I don't ever expect my cooling fans in a thousand to multiple thousand dollar device to stay at idle RPM because the OS isn't talking to the firmware in the right way for it to monitor and control thermals. Nobody expected their device to overhead while doing minimal to nothing of any demand.

 

Seriously I would walk in to a lab of 30 iMacs with nobody using them or have been using them and the top metal surround would be extremely hot to the point of serious concern and that would only be the ones sitting at the Windows login screen, any currently booted in to Mac OS totally fine.

 

Expected experience not provided. Getting audio out of a Steam Deck running Linux is trivial in comparison.

 

10 hours ago, Kisai said:

That is not something you can be provided with, legally either. You have to click through a bunch of EULA's for installing retail drivers. When you buy a desktop PC, it comes with Windows 11 because of agreements with the OEM, and all the correct drivers have been installed.

Absolute unquestionable rubbish. Where on earth did you come up with this nonsense.

 

7 hours ago, Kisai said:

Out of the box, it doesn't support Windows 11, at all (and why I originally said that!) And doesn't support Audio. Doesn't that seem more than a little stupid to market it as "A PC" ?

So if it can't run Windows 11 it's not a PC? Well that sure covers way more than you want to be saying. If it doesn't have audio it's not a PC, same issue again. Also lets cross off the "it can't run Windows 11" because it actually can if you disable TPM requirement on the install media. The device also isn't incapable of running Windows 11, it's just not currently running optimal firmware for it but will do at some point.

 

When Windows 11 came out and literally millions of devices needed firmware and BIOS updates to run Windows 11 did these suddenly stop being PCs without these necessary updates?

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

 

 

When Windows 11 came out and literally millions of devices needed firmware and BIOS updates to run Windows 11 did these suddenly stop being PCs without these necessary updates?

How many people running a Dell or HP just let the computer update itself?

 

Let me tell you, because I'm sure you know, but DELL and HP, and also some laptop manufacturers push BIOS updates via Windows Update. Not all of them. Dell and HP have been shipping TPM's since 2015. There was no need to turn on fTPM, the systems already came with them. 

 

The only computers shipping with no TPM since 2015 have been system builders like OriginPC, like CyberPowerPC, like iBuyPower, etc. They ship without the TPM's because they use retail motherboard manufacturers who kept the TPM chip on a header that no system ever shipped with. You can literately go buy a TPM chip for those systems. If you can find one.

 

So the only option for people with those systems is updating the BIOS if the fTPM existed but was disabled, those BIOS updates remove the ability to disable the fTPM. Thus satisfying the requirement for Windows 11 to use it.

 

So that's phrasing it dishonestly. It's not the BIOS update that was required to update to Windows 11, it was taking the choice away to have it disabled, and it had to be snuck in as part of the CPU. And what did that result in?

https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-410

Quote

Article Number

PA-410

This documentation provides information on improving intermittent performance stutter(s) on select PCs running Windows® 10 and 11 with Firmware Trusted Platform Module (“fTPM”) enabled.

 

Issue Description

AMD has determined that select AMD Ryzen™ system configurations may intermittently perform extended fTPM-related memory transactions in SPI flash memory (“SPIROM”) located on the motherboard, which can lead to temporary pauses in system interactivity or responsiveness until the transaction is concluded.

 

Update and Workaround

• Update: Affected PCs will require a motherboard system BIOS (sBIOS) update containing enhanced modules for fTPM interaction with SPIROM. AMD expects that flashable customer sBIOS files to be available starting in early May, 2022. Exact BIOS availability timing for a specific motherboard depends on the testing and integration schedule of your manufacturer. Flashable updates for motherboards will be based on AMD AGESA 1207 (or newer).
   
• Workaround: As an immediate solution, affected customers dependent on fTPM functionality for Trusted Platform Module support may instead use a hardware TPM (“dTPM”) device for trusted computing. Platform dTPM modules utilize onboard non-volatile memory (NVRAM) that supersedes the TPM/SPIROM interaction described in this article.

Not being able to install Windows 11 doesn't make it "not a PC", that just makes it a dead end piece of hardware for those who are not willing to tinker with it. That custom Linux Distro that Valve will likely never keep in sync with the upstream Linux Distro, leave that on it as long as possible if you want to keep using it. 

 

Please keep in mind the steamdeck is not the first "console" put out that can run windows. Those GPD consoles that are marketed at playing pirated games. Those existing GPD toy consoles don't run Windows 11, and even that most recent model is even more involved than the steamdeck.

 

 

[HenrySalayne]

8 hours ago, Kisai said:

So the only option for people with those systems is updating the BIOS if the fTPM existed but was disabled, those BIOS updates remove the ability to disable the fTPM. Thus satisfying the requirement for Windows 11 to use it.

 

So that's phrasing it dishonestly. It's not the BIOS update that was required to update to Windows 11, it was taking the choice away to have it disabled, and it had to be snuck in as part of the CPU. And what did that result in?

https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-410

What are you talking about? I had a X570 motherboard through several BIOS versions and fTPM could be enabled and disable by the user without any restrictions. No updates required.

Maybe newer BIOSs changed the default config to enable fTPM - which would make sense. ReBAR is also enabled by default nowadays.

 

[mr moose]

Any computational device that is used by a single person and not tied to a mainframe is a PC. any device with a processor that the user can choose their apps for is a PC. 

 

Apple mac - that's a PC

Iphone - that's a PC

android tablet - that's a PC

most gaming consoles - they're PC's too.

 

A PC is not defined by what you mainly do with it, nor is it defined by what the marketing says about it, a PC is anything that runs software for a personal user.  Everything else is just unnecessary, made up specifics that don't actually apply in any real or meaningful way.

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/computer

https://www.techopedia.com/definition/4618/personal-computer-pc

https://www.britannica.com/technology/personal-computer/Faster-smaller-and-more-powerful-PCs

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/personal computer

https://www.webopedia.com/definitions/personal-computer/

 

I could keep going, but the point is that we don't define a products purpose or existence by it's brand or advertising. 

 

 

[Kisai]

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

 

I could keep going, but the point is that we don't define a products purpose or existence by it's brand or advertising. 

 

 

Okay, then, please go install Windows 11 on a Playstation 5 or a Samsung SmartTV to use it as a "PC" to use Microsoft Excel on.

 

Go on, I'm waiting.

 

If it is not marketed as a device you can run anything you choose, and does not contain the necessary hardware to use it that way, it's not a PC. It's either a toy (such as the Steamdeck, SmartTelevisions, Smartphones) because it requires additional hardware to give it PC-like utility, or it requires a level of tinkering and reverse engineering to bring it up to the level of a PC (such as Arm SoC's used in STB's) and even then has almost no utility to use it as a PC because they only have like 2GB of memory.

 

Like good grief there are people out there who think you can run Windows on a Raspberry Pi just because they saw someone run Minecraft. A Raspberry Pi alone is not a PC, it's pretty much as far from a PC as you can get because it's intended to used as IoT devices. Sure, you might assemble one to use as a $5 dollar PC, but you have to add like $200 in accessories just to do so. Good luck doing anything productive with that. It's a toy, not a PC. Raspberry Pi's have feature creeped to "want to be a PC" to the point that they are just as expensive as the worst Intel NUC's that are PC's, and are not nearly as useful as a PC as they are as their intended IoT purpose.

 

Apple sells a MacMini for $800, It runs laps around all these toys, and yet people are still insisting that they should spend just as much money on a steamdeck, docking stations and windows licenses. Hmm, maybe perhaps your insistence that something is a PC, when it clearly needs a lot of help to be a PC maybe doesn't make it a PC hmm?

[HenrySalayne]

7 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Apple sells a MacMini for $800, It runs laps around all these toys, and yet people are still insisting that they should spend just as much money on a steamdeck, docking stations and windows licenses. Hmm, maybe perhaps your insistence that something is a PC, when it clearly needs a lot of help to be a PC maybe doesn't make it a PC hmm?

Ehh...

8 minutes ago, Kisai said:

A Raspberry Pi alone is not a PC, it's pretty much as far from a PC as you can get because it's intended to used as IoT devices. Sure, you might assemble one to use as a $5 dollar PC, but you have to add like $200 in accessories just to do so.

8 minutes ago, Kisai said:

If it is not marketed as a device you can run anything you choose, and does not contain the necessary hardware to use it that way, it's not a PCIt's [...] a toy [...] because it requires additional hardware to give it PC-like utility[...]

By this definition a Mac Mini is not a PC because you need like $200 of accessories and additional hardware to use it...

 

11 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Okay, then, please go install Windows 11 on a Playstation 5 or a Samsung SmartTV to use it as a "PC" to use Microsoft Excel on.

 

Go on, I'm waiting.

And I'm waiting for you to install WIndows 11 on your Mac Mini...

 

I don't think your arbitrary segregation works.

[Kisai]

9 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

Ehh...

By this definition a Mac Mini is not a PC because you need like $200 of accessories and additional hardware to use it...

A Macmini is a PC because you use it exactly like a PC out of the box. You plug in a monitor, it does not come with a screen. You plug in a keyboard and mouse of your choice. A MacBook Air/Pro you merely need to plug power in. A desktop Windows 11 PC you plug in a Monitor, Keyboard and Mouse. Those ports actually exist on the device.

 

You can not do that with a Steamdeck, Smartphone or a SmartTV. You need a docking station that supports the device, and in most cases that means you need a $300 docking station that actually supports multiplexing everything over that USB-C port, not a $80 USB hub that just lets you plug in additional USB devices, and in the case of the smartphone and steamdeck, you need a USB hub that also provides Power Delivery, so you can't just use the cheapest hub either.

 

Do you see where I'm going here? Those devices are toys, because you are only intended to do the thing it was sold as. If you want to use it as some other purpose, you are going to spend a lot more money to bring it up to any level of function. If you want a PC, you do not buy a SteamDeck or a smartphone and plug in a keyboard+mouse. You can't, the devices won't be powered if you monopolize the USB-C port with something that isn't an actual docking station.

 

9 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

And I'm waiting for you to install WIndows 11 on your Mac Mini...

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-and-m2-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c

9 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

I don't think your arbitrary segregation works.

It works just fine. People are just being try-hard whataboutism because they have no stake in anything here, and nothing on the thread is going to change anyones mind.

 

[starsmine]

Kisai's definition of PC is weird as fuck. Not even going as far as Mr. Moose. 

Since when did PC EVER mean out of the box experience?

PCs are just personal computers that you can expect to reasonably do work on. So, old TI 94s, (not a calculator), Apple IIs, IBMs running DOS and their clones, through ALL modern Macs. 

I dont really consider smartphones PCs or consoles PCs because of their IO and locked down OS mean actually doing work on them is... not really a thing. But some console you could make them one. 

But steam decks, are 100% PCs. Raspberry Pis are 100% PC. There is no real issue running windows on them. 

Anyway in terms of OP's story. I really feel like its misleading. Its not falling demand for Macs, its falling demand or PCs. The entire Personal computer market is down 30% so that obviously means Mac sales are down, so Its probably stupid to manufacture them at the same level. 

And its not that they are down that much either, Covid times had a spike in demand as people left the office and worked at home or had more free time at home. so its down from the spike, but not ACTUALLY down. 

 

[leadeater]

46 minutes ago, Kisai said:

It works just fine. People are just being try-hard whataboutism because they have no stake in anything here, and nothing on the thread is going to change anyones mind.

You say that while literally doing and started it first about SteamDeck not being a PC because "what about". Be a little more self aware 

[Kisai]

15 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Kisai's definition of PC is weird as fuck. Not even going as far as Mr. Moose. 

Since when did PC EVER mean out of the box experience?

PCs are just personal computers that you can expect to reasonably do work on. So, old TI 94s, (not a calculator), Apple IIs, IBMs running DOS and their clones, through ALL modern Macs. 
 

It has literately been marketed as "runs everything" since inception.

 

Did you notice how the monitor and joysticks were the optional parts? Now compare that with things that were marketed as toys:

Japan

US

Japan

US

 

What is the common denominator here?

 

It is a toy. It's marketed as a toy, just like game consoles have always been marketed as.

 

[Kisai]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

You say that while literally doing and started it first about SteamDeck not being a PC because "what about". Be a little more self aware 

Oh please, YOU started it.

On 4/9/2023 at 6:40 PM, leadeater said:

But this is the year of Linux, I super swear this time.

If you couldn't tell I was throwing shade at the fact that Linux fans desparately want to call every device that doesn't run Windows a Linux box, when no single manufacturer has ever released a desktop PC with Linux on it, and even fewer have released a laptop running Linux.

 

So along comes the Steamdeck running a propietary fork of a Linux distro, just like Android, and out come the same people trying to defend the indefensible. The Steamdeck is NOT a Desktop PC, It's not a Laptop. It's a toy. It's just as much a toy as a smartphone running a proprietary Android distro. It's no more Linux than the other.

[leadeater]

22 hours ago, Kisai said:

Let me tell you, because I'm sure you know, but DELL and HP, and also some laptop manufacturers push BIOS updates via Windows Update. Not all of them. Dell and HP have been shipping TPM's since 2015. There was no need to turn on fTPM, the systems already came with them. 

They do not push BIOS updates via Windows Updates. Both Dell and HP have "Support Assistant" software for that, only drivers come from Windows Updates. And it's Intel that ship fTPM in the CPUs not anyone else and it being present does not mean the functionality is enabled or working.

 

You obviously know nothing about TPM based on everything you have said after this because literally every Intel based computer since 2015 has been shipping with fTPM.

 

So exactly zero of the SI you named have been shipping computers without "TPM". Physical TPM modules were not popular, I've literally never used one in my life and will never use one.

 

It's also not the Dell's and HP's of the world that needed updating, at least not the business models that were vPro certified anyway since fTPM 2.0 is part of the vPro specification requirement. It's the Asus/Gigabyte/MSI etc that needed the updates because some of them simply did not bother to implement or give options for fTPM and it could be enabled or disabled at random based on whatever they did with the BIOS firmware so it was necessary to properly do this. Maybe some of the home models of Dell/HP needed updates too but since I have as little contact with those types of systems I just don't know or really care that much. It's a fact that BIOS and Firmware updates were required and released by all the above companies mentioned to ensure that the systems or motherboards would meet the Windows 11 requirements and actually make it possible to install.

 

But you will find no systems being sold by Dell/HP today that default with a TPM module and I'm not even sure you can buy them since TPM 2.0 is primarily implemented with fTPM and none of the major brands want to do it any other way than utilize fTPM that comes with the CPUs.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Oh please, YOU started it.

If you couldn't tell I was throwing shade at the fact that Linux fans desparately want to call every device that doesn't run Windows a Linux box, when no single manufacturer has ever released a desktop PC with Linux on it, and even fewer have released a laptop running Linux.

 

So along comes the Steamdeck running a propietary fork of a Linux distro, just like Android, and out come the same people trying to defend the indefensible. The Steamdeck is NOT a Desktop PC, It's not a Laptop. It's a toy. It's just as much a toy as a smartphone running a proprietary Android distro. It's no more Linux than the other.

No you started the whataboutism not me. Whatever you are doing or were doing stop trying to define what a "PC" is because you just keep wild swinging and missing. All the problems you try and come up with XYZ device do not make them "Not a PC".

 

I made a joke, you jumped off the cliff. Don't try and claim I pushed you.

[XNOR]

On 4/4/2023 at 4:09 PM, Kisai said:

Not really. It's not really positioned where it should be.

 

I would buy a Mac, any mac, but not until I can get AV1 encode and decode. Same with another PC. AV1 encode and decode is CRITICAL to being able to use internet communication tools for the next decade. Everyone has had hardware h265, but software encoding will not not save you. AV1 is even more taxing.

 

Like if I needed a laptop, like immediately, the mac is the better option over the intel laptops, but if I had to do video editing, I would not buy it.

 

If video editing is NOT on your radar, then the Mac is the better option unless you need a desktop.

 

My worry is that Apple keeps positioning the Mac in a way that is basically a toy.

H.265 and VP9 are going to remain a fallback option for a long time to come, if only because Apple has worthwhile market share, and customers advertisers love.

 

On 4/4/2023 at 6:19 PM, Donut417 said:

That might explain why I can’t watch YouTube and game on my PC. Was getting studdering when playing games like Sun Haven. 

I doubt you're forced to software decode AV1 currently. It's more likely your provider uses an older, more common encoding type.

[Donut417]

42 minutes ago, XNOR said:

I doubt you're forced to software decode AV1 currently. It's more likely your provider uses an older, more common encoding type.

All I know is Chrome uses shit loads of CPU cycles when playing back YouTube. I believe my video quality is set to 720p as well. 

[XNOR]

1 minute ago, Donut417 said:

All I know is Chrome uses shit loads of CPU cycles when playing back YouTube. I believe my video quality is set to 720p as well. 

You could check the Stats for nerds (rightclick anywhere on the player window and select the option) to see what codec is used. You could also check hardware acceleration is enabled.

 

https://www.lifewire.com/hardware-acceleration-in-chrome-4125122