You don't get a warrantee because Linus might die at an inconvenient time

[Lomac]

40 minutes ago, Spotty said:

If you're interested check the job postings page for how to apply.

https://linusmediagroup.com/jobs

Yeah, spoke with him via Twitter a couple months ago and he mentioned he was hoping to start the process around Canada Day. No idea if it's too late to still apply. Guess no harm in throwing in my resume just in case lol

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, clayb91 said:

But it's all the same. If you disagree with what a company is doing, just go somewhere else, right? If one company offers a warranty, but not another, then buy the one with the warranty. If one product lets you swap RAM modules, and another doesn't, then buy the one that does, right?

"Don't buy it if you don't like it" is just another spin on the old "don't watch it if you don't like it" argument.

It's essentially just a way for someone to say "Shut up. You are not allowed to say bad things about a company I like".

 

It's pretty much only said by people who can't handle someone criticising something they like. It's the same with movies, TV shows and music. As soon as someone points out issues with something there will be at least one person trying to silence legitimate criticism by going "if you don't like it then don't X it".

It's a terrible argument, but people who see legitimate criticism and can't come up with any counter argument likes to pull it out. In that way, it's a great argument because you can apply it to pretty much anything. Pretty much every bad thing in the world, be it a movie, TV show, product, company, person, etc, can be defended with "if you don't like X then don't Y".

 

 

 

Don't like Marvel movies? Don't watch them.

Don't like LTT videos? Don't watch them.

Don't like how Amazon treats their employees? Don't buy from them.

Don't like Tesla? Don't buy their cars.

Don't like Apple? Then don't buy from them.

Don't like LTT? Then don't buy from them.

 

Nobody is allowed to say anything bad about any of the companies mentioned above because clearly they should not be criticised because any critic should just ignore them and not voice their opinion.

 

[Ravendarat]

7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

"Don't buy it if you don't like it" is just another spin on the old "don't watch it if you don't like it" argument.

It's essentially just a way for someone to say "Shut up. You are not allowed to say bad things about a company I like".

 

It's pretty much only said by people who can't handle someone criticising something they like. It's the same with movies, TV shows and music. As soon as someone points out issues with something there will be at least one person trying to silence legitimate criticism by going "if you don't like it then don't X it".

It's a terrible argument, but people who see legitimate criticism and can't come up with any counter argument likes to pull it out. In that way, it's a great argument because you can apply it to pretty much anything. Pretty much every bad thing in the world, be it a movie, TV show, product, company, person, etc, can be defended with "if you don't like X then don't Y".

 

 

 

Don't like Marvel movies? Don't watch them.

Don't like LTT videos? Don't watch them.

Don't like how Amazon treats their employees? Don't buy from them.

Don't like Tesla? Don't buy their cars.

Don't like Apple? Then don't buy from them.

Don't like LTT? Then don't buy from them.

 

Nobody is allowed to say anything bad about any of the companies mentioned above because clearly they should not be criticised because any critic should just ignore them and not voice their opinion.

 

Disagree here. If you dont like it, dont watch it is a valid response to critism. Its a more abrupt way of saying "I have no intentions of changing my art to accommodate you". Saying "if you dont like it dont buy it" doesnt mean they dont hear someones criticism of their product, it means that they dont see your opinion/issue as something that they feel is worth changing for. Either they dont see it as a big deal or they dont agree with the direction you want or whatever. Apple makes iphones, people will critique them for various things they dont like, but they have enough support for their current platform to basically be able to say "Dont like it? Dont buy it" because they have enough support that clearly not enough people share the criticizers  level of concern.

 

You are allowed to say bad things about a company, but people are also allowed to tell you they dont care what you have to say

[LAwLz]

27 minutes ago, Ravendarat said:

Disagree here. If you dont like it, dont watch it is a valid response to critism. Its a more abrupt way of saying "I have no intentions of changing my art to accommodate you". Saying "if you dont like it dont buy it" doesnt mean they dont hear someones criticism of their product, it means that they dont see your opinion/issue as something that they feel is worth changing for. Either they dont see it as a big deal or they dont agree with the direction you want or whatever. Apple makes iphones, people will critique them for various things they dont like, but they have enough support for their current platform to basically be able to say "Dont like it? Dont buy it" because they have enough support that clearly not enough people share the criticizers  level of concern.

 

You are allowed to say bad things about a company, but people are also allowed to tell you they dont care what you have to say

But just saying "I won't change my content for you" is a bad response because it does not address any of the criticism. It basically just tells people to not think about what is being said.

 

"If you don't like it then don't X it" is not only the traitorous critical fallacy, but I would also say it is a though-terminator.

In other words, instead of listening, understanding and responding to criticisms, saying "don't watch it if you don't like it" is the equivalent to putting fingers in your ear and going "lalala I can't hear you".

 

 

 

Here is a description from the link that describes how leaders can use thought-terminating clichés:

Quote

Leaders can also teach their followers to repeat certain phrases in response to points raised by "outsiders" like ideological or political opponents. This allows them to feel as if they've won an argument and have truth on their side, when in reality they've merely brought the conversation to a close and cut themselves off from future communications that might contradict what they're being told by their leaders.

Does that not sound very similar to "if you don't like it then don't watch it"?

It segregates people into "watchers" and "non-watchers". The "non-watchers" are seen as enemies by the "watchers", because they are raising legitimate concerns that might influence the thoughts of the "watchers". The leader does not want the "watchers" to think about what the "non-watchers" says so they terminate the conversation without responding to what the "non-watchers" actually said.

 

It is an actual technique used by dictators and cults to make people not question them.

 

 

 

"If you don't like it then don't watch it" discourages criticism and thinking, and those are two things that are very dangerous to discourage. They should be heavily encouraged.

[Ravendarat]

7 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

But just saying "I won't change my content for you" is a bad response because it does not address any of the criticism. It basically just tells people to not think about what is being said.

 

"If you don't like it then don't X it" is not only the traitorous critical fallacy, but I would also say it is a though-terminator.

In other words, instead of listening, understanding and responding to criticisms, saying "don't watch it if you don't like it" is the equivalent to putting fingers in your ear and going "lalala I can't hear you".

 

 

Not quite what I meant. I was saying that they aren't ignoring you (sticking their fingers in their ears), I'm saying that they decided that your complaint wasn't something that is worthy of changing their product for due to it being overall successful enough without your change. (Obviously I'm not saying "you" in regards to you specifically but just a general term") hence the "IF you don't like it don't buy it" kind of response.

 

Linus has been active on Twitter about this and has said that if people really feel like they need something written on paper to make them feel good about the warranty then they will do so and try to have it ready before the backpack is shipped, but at the end of the day a written warranty is worth very little, and a companies track record in handling customer service issues is worth far more.

[Ravendarat]

First ten minutes of this video covers it reasonably well I think

 

[LAwLz]

35 minutes ago, Ravendarat said:

Not quite what I meant. I was saying that they aren't ignoring you (sticking their fingers in their ears), I'm saying that they decided that your complaint wasn't something that is worthy of changing their product for due to it being overall successful enough without your change. (Obviously I'm not saying "you" in regards to you specifically but just a general term") hence the "IF you don't like it don't buy it" kind of response.

I don't think you understand what I said. "if you don't like it don't buy it" is a thought-terminator and a fallacy. It's a terrible argument because it does not address any of the criticism.

Besides, your spin that they are actually saying "we won't change our product for you" doesn't hold up when it's fans, like in this thread, that says it. I rarely hear it said by companies. In 99% of cases I hear it from "super fans" that don't want to question the company they worship. The only time I can think of when a company said it was when Microsoft told people to not buy the Xbox One if they didn't have constant access to the Internet, and we all remember how well that went. 

 

Let's face it, "don't watch it if you don't like it" or "don't buy it if you don't like it" is just them saying "fuck off with your criticism".

 

 

43 minutes ago, Ravendarat said:

Linus has been active on Twitter about this and has said that if people really feel like they need something written on paper to make them feel good about the warranty then they will do so and try to have it ready before the backpack is shipped, but at the end of the day a written warranty is worth very little, and a companies track record in handling customer service issues is worth far more.

No, warranties are worth a ton.

Besides, Linus has been speaking out of both sides of his mouth. If warranties matters so little, why was he so reluctant to provide one?

And no, company track records are not worth more than legal protection from getting screwed over. You should not trust a company, even if they have treated you well in the past. That is advice that both Linus and I strongly believe in. He has said so many times in the past. 

It's just that Linus doesn't want people to apply that critical thinking when it comes to his products.

[Ravendarat]

17 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

No, warranties are worth a ton.

Besides, Linus has been speaking out of both sides of his mouth. If warranties matters so little, why was he so reluctant to provide one?

And no, company track records are not worth more than legal protection from getting screwed over. You should not trust a company, even if they have treated you well in the past. That is advice that both Linus and I strongly believe in. He has said so many times in the past. 

It's just that Linus doesn't want people to apply that critical thinking when it comes to his products.

Ok lets pretend for a second you bought a backpack and lets say that they had provided a written warranty and your backpack had an issue that would fall under that warranty, like lets say a strap broke. And then when you try to file a claim and the provider of said warranty says "That looks like you intentionally damaged the bag, we aren't covering it." Sure you can go on twitter and try to drag them through the mud, and you can email them every day for months if you want, but if they still tell you no whats your recourse? Are you gonna take them to court over a $250 bag. No way are you and anyone that says otherwise is a liar, period. So whats that written warranty really worth? Absolutely nothing if the company backing it up wont enforce it. And if the company is a stand up company and are willing to back the product up than whats it matter if its written or not? Ive been in retail for 22 years, written warranties are worthless besides giving people a false sense of security that they will be taken care of

[Thaldor]

28 minutes ago, Ravendarat said:

but at the end of the day a written warranty is worth very little, and a companies track record in handling customer service issues is worth far more.

And that is the big problem in the arguments of Linus. He downgrades the written warranty because some companies are just plain awful, evil and bad and so LMG doesn't need written warranty because "it doesn't matter". While in reality, yeah companies are evil, Linus even himself does advocates that even him or especially the LMG isn't anyones friend and consumers shouldn't trust businesses (except LMG, you should trust LMG because it's Linuses company, you should trust it because Linus says so, but not any other), and companies do not honor their warranty policies and try to wiggle out from them. If I wanted to be really evil, I would hope that Linus doesn't have insurances because every single insurance company will and does read every and single one of their customers claims to find the one thing why they shouldn't pay them a cent, because that is the same logic as not to have warranty because companies will try to wiggle out from them.

 

Next part is purely that I do as Linus preaches and I refuse to trust him and I refuse to trust LMG without they putting their promises in written form so that they are clear, public and agreeable. (If anyone wants to say I am a hater because I bundle LMG and Linus with every other company and their CEOs, so what? If I'm a hater because I request LMG and Linus to do what I require every other one to do and I expect them to even be better, then I am proud to be The Hater^TM.)

 

What I think Linus really hoped with not having the written warranty policy was that they can always overdeliver, they do not promise that they will cover their mistakes for X years, they do not promise a single thing, 2 years in and the straps of the backpacks start to fall off and he can be "we didn't promise to support the backpacks for this long, buy new ones" and when brought up he will go "prove that we did" and goes and deletes his Tweets and couple videos or worse he will say "yeah but I didn't especially say I promise that". He doesn't want written warranty because that would set the bar, he couldn't go and just "the backpack will last years" and when they break after 2 years "it was just years, not how many", written warranty will give you the expected the lifetime of the product, it will set that the backpack in right use will last X years and LMG must stand behind at least that.

Linus has said that he always wants to underpromise and overdeliver. And in this case he wants to dig the bar to the ground so he can overdeliver even if he was to even dig a trench over the bar and get over it by diving.

[yolosnail]

When I buy something, the warranty/guarantee is usually the thing that would swing me one way or the other.

 

My last few backpacks have just been cheap Chinese no-name Amazon specials. Why is that?

Because I know that buying through Amazon I have pretty much a 2 year no questions asked guarantee through their customer support as long as it was fulfilled by Amazon. 

Strap breaks after 1 year 11 months, I get on to live chat, I can return it and get a full refund. 

 

Is it ethical, probably not. But at the end of the day I don't really care, the policy is there so I'm going to take advantage of it.

 

Same when I buy tools, there's a reason most of my tools are Aldi/Lidl specials, they come with at least a 3 year guarantee (which is better than most of the big brands), so even if the quality isn't as good, I know that if they break any time within the first 3 years, they get replaced (usually no questions asked).

[Imbadatnames]

6 hours ago, LIGISTX said:

That… is the most insane thing I have ever heard. Lol. A wrap will not affect anything about the car except the looks. It’s not a layer of insulation. It doesn’t affect thermals. Don’t create an argument that is nonsensical just to defend a point. 
 

Thermals on cars are managed by heat exchangers. Heat exchangers would never be covered by a wrap unless whoever is doing it actually has no idea what they are doing…. No one would wrap over an air intake or a radiator opening. My car is effectively “wrapped” because it has a full clear bra on it, which is a relatively standard thing to do on exotic cars especially, it doesn’t have anything impact on cooling, and it definitely has no bearing on a warranty. It’s a cosmetic change… this is the type of argument a car manufacturer would make and the internet would be up in arms over seeing as it would be a corporation finding a way to weasel out of proving warranty services. No, a wrap would never be grounds for a voided warranty. 
 

Why does that make sense. If the martins are huge, a warranty wouldn’t suddenly make the margins negative… the more of the same thing they make, economies of scale take over and profit only goes up. This, again, makes no sense. They may discontinue it because they are not a backpack company, but I suspect they will have them for sale for years.

Do you know nothing about aerodynamics? Supercars are designed to have airflow channeled across the surface of the bodywork and enter fairly large intakes which are used to cool the engine components. Specific wraps and ones done poorly can mess with that surface, altering airflow and therefore cooling. It might insulate the car depending one how thick the wrap is, it might set on fire from getting too warm, you also can’t define what has been done “correctly”, if one person does it themselves and covers every single intake with the wrap what’s the difference between than and doing it correctly in the warranty terms? There’s countless variables which could affect the car and they are rightly warranty voiding. If you don’t like it then don’t buy the car. 
 

The only reason not to offer a warranty is you don’t trust the product to reliable meet that warranty. If they didn’t trust it enough at launch the reason why will still exist. 

 

[Imbadatnames]

7 hours ago, Levent said:

You dont wrap a cars air intakes when you wrap it. In fact I can argue wrapping a car has little to no effect on its cooling as cooling is handled by radiators, not cars body. Also, no manufacturer I know of void warranties of wrapped vehicles, Ferrari is no different. In fact, dealers themselves nowadays offer PPF to customers which is identical as wrapping your car with a different color film.

 

Now that I pointed out this shitty argument, if you want to continue please write on my profile not here.

Ferraris warranty is voided by tampering and modifications. A wrap can be judged to be such. One done by an approved vendor however would be fine. 
 

The intakes are designed to be fed by air channels created by the bodywork by aero, wraps can decrease this effect ergo cooling. 

Wraps can also be applied incorrectly, as there is no legal definition of the “correct” way ti apply a wrap you cannot allow certain ones. 

 

 

[LIGISTX]

21 minutes ago, Imbadatnames said:

Do you know nothing about aerodynamics? Supercars are designed to have airflow channeled across the surface of the bodywork and enter fairly large intakes which are used to cool the engine components. Specific wraps and ones done poorly can mess with that surface, altering airflow and therefore cooling. It might insulate the car depending one how thick the wrap is, it might set on fire from getting too warm, you also can’t define what has been done “correctly”, if one person does it themselves and covers every single intake with the wrap what’s the difference between than and doing it correctly in the warranty terms? There’s countless variables which could affect the car and they are rightly warranty voiding. If you don’t like it then don’t buy the car. 

Um…. No.

 

I am an engineer, I do actually understand how aero works. This is not at all correct, and vinyl will not alter any perceivable flow. If someone put a piece of vinyl across an intake, I don’t know what to tell you, they probably shouldn’t be working on cars. That is not a thing that happens, no one does that. I don’t want to say it’s never been done because mistakes obviously happen, but no, wrap shops don’t block heat exchanger openings, they don’t block vents, they don’t block naca ducts, etc. And putting a piece of thin film does not alter the aero of the car, or change how the flow over the body is. Most race cars actually have stickers all over them… 

 

And no, insulation is not at all a concern. If your car is doing any amount of cooling via radiating heat from body panels, your car is actively on fire. Production cars almost always actually have insulation under the hood and on the firewall specifically to not let engine heat get near you, the occupant.

 

Don’t make nonsensical arguments just to try and prove a point. Wrapping your car should not void your warranty, especially nothing beyond the paint itself (it shouldn’t void that either, but if someone really messes up and damages the clear cost, obviously there is potential grounds here for not covering the terms of the paint warranty).

 

Thankfully, as far as I know only Ferrari pulls crap like that and has issue with wraps and changing the look of their car - not because it actually changes anything in a negative way, they just AGGRESSIVELY go after people who “deface the Ferrari style”, which is massively anti consumer, which was the entire point I was trying to make here. Even though nothing was altered in a way that would legally void a warranty, some companies will still use their influence and relative immunity from a single persons complaints, and will void their warranty unjustly.

 

And trust me, I have a well developed understanding of how car cooling systems work. From experience, I can tell you putting a rather thick PPF over the entire car doesn’t alter cooling… that isn’t how aero works. Don’t let companies fool you like that, this is exactly why a company with solid believes and one which actually stand behind their products are worth buying from, and ones that will come

up with literal made up arguments to get out of warranty coverage are not ones I would support. That said, if I could afford a Ferrari, I’d likely still get one. Because if you can afford a Ferrari, your probably not all that worried about things being covered by warranty anyways… you sort of already understand what you signed up for. 
 

Debated posting an image, because I don’t want to be perceived as just trying to one up anyone or something. But, I promise, adding vinyl to your car does not do any of that, and letting companies wiggle out of warranty because consumers are not aware of how mechanical systems functions is bad, unfortunately it happens all the time. Besides the entire car having one massive sticker on it (more or less), compared to most track cars it only has number stickers on it, which is WAY less then normal. 

[Avocado Diaboli]

2 hours ago, Ravendarat said:

Not quite what I meant. I was saying that they aren't ignoring you (sticking their fingers in their ears), I'm saying that they decided that your complaint wasn't something that is worthy of changing their product for due to it being overall successful enough without your change. (Obviously I'm not saying "you" in regards to you specifically but just a general term") hence the "IF you don't like it don't buy it" kind of response.

Here's the thing though: I never had the intention of buying that overpriced backpack, regardless of if it had a warranty or not. So the "don't like it, don't buy it" argument doesn't even apply, because I'm not arguing out of concern for my own purchase, I'm arguing based on principle, because I feel people who want to buy it still deserve a warranty. Maybe I'm alone in that, though I have a gut feeling that I'm not. So telling me to go elsewhere does not address the core concern of someone selling a fairly expensive backpack with zero assurance that they'll handle any issues like manufacturing defects. That's why the "don't like it, don't buy it" line is not a real argument, it sails past the points of whoever you're arguing against and tries to divert attention away from the relevant point. Speaking of which:

 

1 hour ago, Ravendarat said:

Ok lets pretend for a second you bought a backpack and lets say that they had provided a written warranty and your backpack had an issue that would fall under that warranty, like lets say a strap broke. And then when you try to file a claim and the provider of said warranty says "That looks like you intentionally damaged the bag, we aren't covering it." Sure you can go on twitter and try to drag them through the mud, and you can email them every day for months if you want, but if they still tell you no whats your recourse? Are you gonna take them to court over a $250 bag. No way are you and anyone that says otherwise is a liar, period. So whats that written warranty really worth? Absolutely nothing if the company backing it up wont enforce it. And if the company is a stand up company and are willing to back the product up than whats it matter if its written or not? Ive been in retail for 22 years, written warranties are worthless besides giving people a false sense of security that they will be taken care of

This is just outright conjecture and again simply a tactic to avoid the relevant point. Because it doesn't matter if all or even a majority of people running into a warranty issue would get denied based on malicious non-compliance. LMG could smack down every single last one of their valid warranty claims and it wouldn't do a dent in my mind that it's still scummy to not have a warranty at all and to defend that decision with a weak "oh my poor bereaved wife can't possibly delegate the warranty claims among the remaining staff and leadership of the company".

 

The fact that you have to invoke such a scenario and base your entire view on the matter on mere assumptions about the lengths people are willing to go to to recover money is already a big indicator that you're arguing against all logic here. "What does it matter that the police issued you an erroneous $20 parking fine (or however much it costs in the US or wherever you live), are you seriously going to complain or just pony up?" See how silly that notion suddenly sounds?

[kumicota]

1 hour ago, Ravendarat said:

"That looks like you intentionally damaged the bag, we aren't covering it

This is whatabouism and conjecture. Is like saying "Someone X kills people, so I can do it too" is a dumb and a comment with malicious intent. We're talking about LTT not some shady company.

 

If linus really believe that his bag is worthy the price and the warranties/time that he's saying, why doesn't him put the money where his mouth is? Is because if he doesn't believe in it? is because he will not fulfill the warranties or what?

 

Let's take the scredriver for example, if I get a snap-on wrench, screwdriver and any tool that falls under their lifetime warranty and I break it I can take it to the hundred of snap-on trucks, mail them, talk with their support and more they will replace it for free.

 

Why should I get a LTT scredriver that doesn't have a warranty instead of snap-on that is trusted, famous and a reputable brand that offers warranties?

 

[Ravendarat]

9 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Here's the thing though: I never had the intention of buying that overpriced backpack, regardless of if it had a warranty or not. So the "don't like it, don't buy it" argument doesn't even apply, because I'm not arguing out of concern for my own purchase, I'm arguing based on principle.

Ok cool, so you aren't their target customer than obviously, so why would a company take into account the concerns of someone who isn't their customer? The backpack is over priced to YOU, but it isnt over priced to the people who are buying it when you compare to other offerings of similar pack designs as have been posted earlier in this very thread. You appear to have made up your mind based on price vs your need, which is your right and quite frankly what you should do, but it also means that your input is something that the company doesn't need to concern itself with.

 

11 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

This is just outright conjecture and again simply a tactic to avoid the relevant point. Because it doesn't matter if all or even a majority of people running into a warranty issue would get denied based on malicious non-compliance. LMG could smack down every single last one of their valid warranty claims and it wouldn't do a dent in my mind that it's still scummy to not have a warranty at all and to defend that decision with a weak "oh my poor bereaved wife can't possibly delegate the warranty claims among the remaining staff and leadership of the company".

 

The fact that you have to invoke such a scenario and base your entire view on the matter on mere assumptions about the lengths people are willing to go to to recover money is already a big indicator that you're arguing against all logic here. "What does it matter that the police issued you an erroneous $20 parking fine (or however much it costs in the US or wherever you live), are you seriously going to complain or just pony up?" See how silly that notion suddenly sounds?

I'm not "basing my entire view on it". But if you don't think that its important to factor in the consequences of not fulfilling a warranty when talking about providing one than I cant help you. Of course it matters. Also if I got a $20 ticket from the police and have the choice of paying it by mail or spending half a day going to the court house to fight it than ya, im just paying the $20 as it cost me a lot less than the 4 hours of my time. It would suck but its also the better choice financially for me. And not that it matters but I live in Canada not the US

 

I'm flat out telling you that written warranties on lower priced items such as a $250 backpack are something that's provide to give people a false sense of relief that they will be cared for if something goes wrong. Its not worth a damn thing besides false peace of mind. If I have to chose between written warranty or a track record of good customer service Ill take the track record every time and if you wouldn't also take that then you are the one making a poor choice. One is based on hoping a company will care for you based on a piece of paper and one is based on SEEING a company actually take care of customers, it shouldn't even be a comparison as to which carries more weight. I deal with a company that provides "life time warranty" on a product they sell, but I also see how that same company rejects product warranty all the time for what I feel are baseless claims and I am left dealing with the upset customer, conversely I have another company, similar product, one year warranty and yet I have gotten them to cover product past warranty on numerous occasions. So what's more important, the written warranty or the company track record?

[Ravendarat]

7 minutes ago, kumicota said:

This is whatabouism and conjecture. 

 

No its not, it was a hypothetical situation I was posing to make a point.

[Avocado Diaboli]

33 minutes ago, Ravendarat said:

Ok cool, so you aren't their target customer than obviously, so why would a company take into account the concerns of someone who isn't their customer? The backpack is over priced to YOU, but it isnt over priced to the people who are buying it when you compare to other offerings of similar pack designs as have been posted earlier in this very thread. You appear to have made up your mind based on price vs your need, which is your right and quite frankly what you should do, but it also means that your input is something that the company doesn't need to concern itself with.

Again, failing to grasp the pertinent point, possibly since you haven't seen the part I edited in just after the part you quoted, but before you submitted your post, where I state that just because I personally have no interest in buying it does not invalidate my stance that there still should be a warranty because the people that do intend to buy it still deserve one. Being dismissive of that is, as @LAwLz pointed out, a hint that whoever is being dismissive is just being a blind fanboy and jumping in to defend the thing they like simply because admitting that the thing they like has any faults whatsoever would cause some kind of cognitive schism. Why not instead be intellectually honest and accept that people with no interest in buying the damn backpack or any other item from LMG can still call out shitty business practices? I'll probably never buy a product made by any company Elon Musk owns and yet I still get to call him a wanker for endangering his workforce after trying to force them back to work during Covid lockdowns. See how that works? Implying that only my dollar entitles me to a voice is the height of hilarity and I'm not sure why anyone would lower themselves to being perceived in such a light.

 

33 minutes ago, Ravendarat said:

I'm flat out telling you that written warranties on lower priced items such as a $250 backpack are something that's provide to give people a false sense of relief that they will be cared for if something goes wrong. Its not worth a damn thing besides false peace of mind. If I have to chose between written warranty or a track record of good customer service Ill take the track record every time and if you wouldn't also take that then you are the one making a poor choice. One is based on hoping a company will care for you based on a piece of paper and one is based on SEEING a company actually take care of customers, it shouldn't even be a comparison as to which carries more weight. I deal with a company that provides "life time warranty" on a product they sell, but I also see how that same company rejects product warranty all the time for what I feel are baseless claims and I am left dealing with the upset customer, conversely I have another company, similar product, one year warranty and yet I have gotten them to cover product past warranty on numerous occasions. So what's more important, the written warranty or the company track record?

No, you did explicitly not say any of those things. You claimed nobody would be willing to actually go to court over such matters. And here's where the twist comes in: I actually have some professional experience in the law enforcement sector and I can tell you for a fact that people will go to court for such low sums. So no, your entire argument flies out of the window. People will go to court over such sums in small claims courts which costs nothing if you win, since the warranty dodger has to pay the claimant's fees.

 

Besides, you completely ignore the optics of it. Just look at the shit that got stirred because LMG didn't offer a warranty. They were successfully forced to reconsider and apparently are thinking of instating one just because of public backlash (no thanks to you and other yes-men). What do you think would happen if someone were to publicize an instance of a denied warranty case? Do you think people would still gladly hand over money at LTT store? See, I can also make up hypothetical scenarios to make a point. Neither of us are necessarily correct in their projected outcomes. But what I do know for a fact is that people like me, who could've said nothing and just looked the other way while actual customers would've gotten a backpack without a warranty, actually got an actual result. So much for the "don't like it, don't buy it" argument. Complaining evidently worked. So you have no actual arguments to fall back on. I rest my case.

[Ravendarat]

2 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Again, failing to grasp the pertinent point, possibly since you haven't seen the part I edited in just after the part you quoted, but before you submitted your post, where I state that just because I personally have no interest in buying it does not invalidate my stance that there still should be a warranty because the people that do intend to buy it still deserve one. Being dismissive of that is, as @LAwLz pointed out, a hint that whoever is being dismissive is just being a blind fanboy and jumping in to defend the thing they like simply because admitting that the thing they like has any faults whatsoever would cause some kind of cognitive schism. Why not instead be intellectually honest and accept that people with no interest in buying the damn backpack or any other item from LMG can still call out shitty business practices? I'll probably never buy a product made by any company Elon Musk owns and yet I still get to call him a wanker for endangering his workforce after trying to force them back to work during Covid lockdowns. See how that works? Implying that only my dollar entitles me to a voice is the height of hilarity and I'm not sure why anyone would lower themselves to being perceived in such a light.

Actually thats a horrible comparison, good or poor product and unsafe work conditions are not the same discussion, that was a misstep on your part. However your objection to Musk companies themselves are totally valid and I hold similar opinions. Also to call me a "blind fanboy" is not fair either, I don't think Linus walks on water and have been critical of them in the past, but not on this point. I never said your point was invalidated, but if you aren't looking to buy a product from a company than why would they cater to you? With that said if they institute a written warranty and sales spike than I will be the first to come back on here and say that I was wrong about the number of people holding off due to no written warranty. When Im wrong I have no problem admitting it. I personally am not buying one either, and its not the price for me, its that I have no use case for a backpack. I dont travel and I don't haul anything around that doesn't fit in my pockets. As for shitty business practices I would like to point out that the water bottle has no implied warranty yet there are numerous stories on this forum of people buying them and having an issue with it whether it be leaking or even just print fading off prematurely (i'd like to point out that cosmetic defects are often not something covered by warranty on items like that as it doesn't effect performance) and they have gotten replacements no hassle from LTT so it seems like their business it doing an admiral job of taking care of customers and people are just getting upset that they aren't putting it in writing.

 

2 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

No, you did explicitly not say any of those things. You claimed nobody would be willing to actually go to court over such matters. And here's where the twist comes in: I actually have some professional experience in the law enforcement sector and I can tell you for a fact that people will go to court for such low sums. So no, your entire argument flies out of the window. People will go to court over such sums in small claims courts which costs nothing if you win, since the warranty dodger has to pay the claimant's fees.

 

Besides, you completely ignore the optics of it. Just look at the shit that got stirred because LMG didn't offer a warranty. They were successfully forced to reconsider and apparently are thinking of instating one just because of public backlash (no thanks to you and other yes-men). What do you think would happen if someone were to publicize an instance of a denied warranty case? Do you think people would still gladly hand over money at LTT store? See, I can also make up hypothetical scenarios to make a point. Neither of us are necessarily correct in their projected outcomes. But what I do know for a fact is that people like me, who could've said nothing and just looked the other way while actual customers would've gotten a backpack without a warranty, actually got an actual result. So much for the "don't like it, don't buy it" argument. Complaining evidently worked. So you have no actual arguments to fall back on. I rest my case.

I didnt say "I already told you.........", it was me explicitly saying those things in that post. I PREVIOUSLY said no one would go over court in those matters and I question you thinking someone would go to small claims court in BC unless they happen to live there over a $250 backpack as you cant sue for things like travel expense in small claims in Canada. It's ridiculous. And Hypothetical scenarios are part of discussion and I am more than happy to discuss yours. I agree that if you go and make a huge stink online you would probably get results, I suggested that was an issue in a previous post which is why I said I THINK THE WOULD LOOK AFTER CUSTOMERS WITHOUT AN EXPRESS WRITTEN WARRANTY. That was my whole point, that the warranty in writing is unneeded as the companies track record for dealing with customer issues gives no concern that they wouldn't take care of people with this purchase. And yes, it does look like the squeaky wheel is getting the grease here and that they will put a warranty in writing, and Im glad that will make some of you happy. My point though is the real world implications of having it in writing is irrelevant as I think everything will be dealt with the exact same way whether it was writing or not. Admittedly there is no way to prove that and we will never know so we are gonna have to just agree that we have different view points on this and move on because I think its safe to say we are both set in our mindsets here.

 

So my new question is what do you feel should be the length of a warranty on this bag? What would the general public be satisfied with?

[Avocado Diaboli]

6 hours ago, Ravendarat said:

Actually thats a horrible comparison, good or poor product and unsafe work conditions are not the same discussion, that was a misstep on your part.

Not really, because you again ignored the actual point I'm making and focusing on the differences between situations instead of the commonalities. You said "don't like it, don't buy it." So if you don't like how Musk treats his workforce, you shouldn't buy from him. Same thing with Amazon, if you don't like warehouse workers pissing in bottles and delivery drivers breaking traffic laws to maintain their projected delivery times and quotas, don't buy from them. Because according to you and others, complaining isn't a valid strategy, you should always only vote with your dollars. And if you aren't and never intend to be their customers, you should just shut up, because why should those companies cater to you at all?

 

6 hours ago, Ravendarat said:

As for shitty business practices I would like to point out that the water bottle has no implied warranty yet there are numerous stories on this forum of people buying them and having an issue with it whether it be leaking or even just print fading off prematurely (i'd like to point out that cosmetic defects are often not something covered by warranty on items like that as it doesn't effect performance) and they have gotten replacements no hassle from LTT so it seems like their business it doing an admiral job of taking care of customers and people are just getting upset that they aren't putting it in writing.

6 hours ago, Ravendarat said:

My point though is the real world implications of having it in writing is irrelevant as I think everything will be dealt with the exact same way whether it was writing or not.

And? How would instantiating a warranty change any of that and make it worse for the customer? See, this is what I don't get about your line of reasoning. Not having a warranty still leaves the legal risk of you ending up with your pants down if LMG ever do a Google and remove "don't be evil" from their company motto. Even if a warranty changes nothing about the experience for customers, it's still a legally binding agreement that can be fought over in court. You know that, that's why you unsuccessfully attempted to imply that nobody would go to court over those sums. So why argue against windmills here? Having a warranty is strictly better than not having one, you have no reasonable argument to prove otherwise.

 

Just because LMG are doing an ok job (shitty support not responding to tickets leading to a large number of threads on this forum notwithstanding) still does not negate the "corporations aren't your friends" maxim. The relationship between seller and customer is inherently adversarial and I'm firmly on the side of the customer. And if you are too, then you should be in favor of a warranty in all cases, not pick and choose based on track record. You know, practice what you preach. Linus is getting to feel how it is to be on the other side of that argument and the way he deals with that issue should be of particular interest to anyone watching his content. Customers aren't his friends and they shouldn't be placated by a "I've got your back", when just a few seconds prior he gave you a terrible reason for not offering a warranty.

 

6 hours ago, Ravendarat said:

So my new question is what do you feel should be the length of a warranty on this bag? What would the general public be satisfied with?

The minimum 2 years granted by the mandatory EU warranty seems like a reasonable start.

[yolosnail]

8 hours ago, Ravendarat said:

So my new question is what do you feel should be the length of a warranty on this bag? What would the general public be satisfied with?

 

For a backpack that's as great as they say it is, I honestly expect no less than a lifetime warranty.

 

Linus has repeatedly said it's the last backpack you'll ever buy, so he should put his money where his mouth is. 

 

He's made all these grand claims about it being able to tow a car with the handle, how the strap adjusters are metal and will never break, how good YKK zippers are etc.

 

If he's not prepared to back up those claims with a warranty, then it's all just marketing bollocks.

 

 

To me, the fact that he's worried about warranty claims in the future screwing over his family is a sign that he expects people to be claiming on the warranty. 

The reason lifetime warranties exist is because companies believe in their product, and don't expect people to make a claim!

 

If Linus truly believes the Backpack is great, and will be the last backpack you'll ever buy, then the ONLY way he can do it is by offering a Lifetime warranty.

[Fire_Burns_22]

17 minutes ago, yolosnail said:

The reason lifetime warranties exist is because companies believe in their product, and don't expect people to make a claim!

That's not actually true. Most companies offer 'lifetime warranties' only as a gimmick. They either have caveats to exclude all of the ways it would fail other than straight up manufacturing defects, or they have made a calculated decision that their markup is enough to absorb the returns.

For instance, auto part stores offer parts with 'lifetime warranties' under the calculated risk that 50% of their buyers won't own the vehicle long enough to replace the part again, 25% will forget that they had a warranty and rebuy it anyway, and that they have enough markup to handle the 25% that do warranty out the parts. 
A similar example is with tools. However, more often it's focused more simply on the fact that it costs them far less than they sell it for to produce. 
The last example I will give you is with at Target with their 'Cat and Jack' children's clothing line. They offer a 'lifetime warranty' on these as well. And they're extremely generous with it. But that is because they have a large enough markup on the clothes that they can absorb the handful of people who actually take advantage of the available warranty.

I'm not arguing that warranties are useful, but the piece of paper saying it has a warranty doesn't mean the product is good, and it doesn't anything if the company behind it doesn't stand behind it. Just as there are companies like Costco that stand behind their products regardless of warranty. 

[silentdragon95]

I get where Linus is coming from and I do believe that he believes in what he said, that customers have no reason to worry and that LMG will take care of us if any issues with the backpack or screwdriver (or other products) arise. I am also sure that the backpack and screwdriver are of a very high quality and that Linus doesn't really expect there to be longevity issues with them.

 

However, I also think that this was a very rash and potentially stupid thing to say publicly in the words he used. As others have already pointed out, Linus himself has correctly said before that a company can never be your friend, because it is a company and at the end of the day its existence relies on making money from you. He has also said that we shouldn't just blindly trust him or anyone else for that matter, because a person can always change their mind. The fact is, that LMG is a legal entity. As such, even if Linus disappeared tomorrow, it's not like we could go after his wife or his children to get a warranty claim on our backpacks. As long as Linus Media Group Inc. exists, any of that will be directed towards the company and whoever may be running it at that time. And yes, if LMG were to close its doors, we'd all be screwed anyway, but this is true of any product out there.

 

The LTTstore is no longer just a store where fans of LMG can buy some merchandise items like T-shirts or mousepads. The backpack and the screwdriver are very expensive premium items that are significantly more complex than a piece of clothing. Even if they didn't want to compete with other premium products in that space (which Linus has repeatedly stated that they do!), people rightfully expect more than just a "trust me, bro" as far as the longevity of these items are concerned.

 

I trust that Linus meant what he said about standing behind their products and that he doesn't have ulterior motives for not having a formal warranty. However, I also hope that he can realize that his take was thoughtless and that he has made a mistake by contradicting himself and what he normally preaches. If so, that's okay, everyone makes mistakes, and there still is time to fix this one.

[Ultraforce]

On 8/9/2022 at 3:44 PM, clayb91 said:

Honestly, I'm in wave 1 and not planning to cancel. But if I get it and I don't like it, or if it is flawed, I will definitely be contacting support. It would be really nice to know ahead of time what they consider a big enough flaw to warrant replacement or refund. Right now that is not published anywhere and that is unacceptable, especially for a $250 product.

 

I hope that they publish something. I hope that they're more transparent in their support policies and how they back up their products. I take issue with how he has handled the situation, especially when he would call out other companies for less, no matter their size.

Personally, if I don't like it and find it flawed I'll just ask to return it since they do have a 30-day return policy, and I'll pay for shipping. I did read the reviews and the Reddit post of a user ahead of time to see that I probably would like it, but if I don't, I would like some of my money back to be able to quickly find a replacement backpack.

[bolko7]

How about this, ppl like me who ordered LTT backpack get a warranty but promise not to use it when Linus die. That will protect his kids and wife. Linus, just trust us bro. 

 

I do not know how ppl can not find Linus explanation that he is not giving a warranty cuz he wants to protect his family, grotesque at best and offensive at worst. I am unsure if he knows how awful he looks, using his family as an excuse. To me, he scored +100 do being a dick person. 

 

PS. sorry for my poor English