Apple is sticking taxpayers with part of the bill for rollout of tech giant’s digital ID card

[Blademaster91]

53 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

It's funny everyone presents it as "Apple wants taxpayers money!!!!!!11111". Do people think companies that make physical ID's are charities? They get tax payer money too for design and production of gov issued ID's. But evil Apple, how dare they expect monetary compensation for work! And from your taxes! Outrageous!

Well if this is going to be an apple service, only available for people with iphones, then apple should pay for it.  Taxpayers shouldn't be forced to pay for something that isn't an open system.

[WhitetailAni]

15 minutes ago, comander said:

As an FYI, if you're going to do a digital ID card... keep an extra, old phone in your vehicle JUST for handing over to law enforcement. This phone should have basically NOTHING on it. Factory wipe it. Include your ID, your insurance card (ideally a pdf, not an app) and have basically 0 web history, app use, etc. 

Touch ID/Face ID authentication + passcode and/or Apple ID password for security perhaps? This probably isn't going to be just a regular app installed - probably something in Settings. IIRC iOS 15.1 introduced something similar with being able to store verifiable COVID-19 vaccination cards on your phone via the Health and Wallet apps (yes, you have to use both to add it).

[TheEggComputer]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

It's funny everyone presents it as "Apple wants taxpayers money!!!!!!11111". Do people think companies that make physical ID's are charities? They get tax payer money too for design and production of gov issued ID's. But evil Apple, how dare they expect monetary compensation for work! And from your taxes! Outrageous!

The difference is that the companies that make the physical id’s are government contractors. The issue with the Apple side is that it is purely for convenience to have the id on the phone. Especially since it is a proprietary system and not one other companies can use. In addition, Apple already has much of the code existing already, as transit cards, college student ID’s (see end for link), store membership cards, and even plane tickets can be put into apple wallet if the issuing organization supports it. So if they already have the code and already have probably made a working version why make the taxpayer pay for it?
 

Do banks pay apple to work with Wallet? Probably not

Do store memberships? Again, probably not. 

Tldr: The comparison to the contractors who make the physical id is a moot point as what Apple is doing is for a) convenience b) a closed system and c) they already have developed the code before

 

College ID’s in the wallet app:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208965

 

EDIT 2: Also, as per the OP, Apple has a lot of control over how the states can handle design & marketing and other uses for it. The fact the state cannot handle how their ID can be designed, marketed, and how much control is given to Apple is part of the issue.

 

Yes, apple should and does get paid, just shouldn’t be with taxpayer money as they already make such a huge profit from iPhone sales. The R&D cost alone for this should not even be that much as like I said earlier, Apple already has much of the code existing

 

EDIT 3: I realized that I never specified that the profit part from iPhone sales is part of this, as iOS is exclusively on iPhones. The Wallet app, which used to be called Passbook, has had the code to implement this for years now (Known as PassKit, see here). If the states wanted to, they could have done this years ago and only had to pay for a developer license, something that they have already paid for because of apps that they have made.

 

People who argue saying that Apple should be paid with taxpayer money for this are arguing a moot point, as the code has existed for years. Apple doesn't have to do much if anything in regards to R&D as a result.

 

However, people will still choose to say "Apple should get paid for this by the government" or "Only have people who have iPhones or who use the service pay for this" even though this could have been done years ago for cheaper and with more control than Apple's deal with the states currently has because hey, it's apple

 

 

EDIT 4: MERGED 2 POSTS INTO ONE: SEE SECOND POST BELOW

1 hour ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

i agree, but only from people who CAN use the system, people on android and other mobile devices shouldn't.

if you spent all of your life getting away from apple devices and services only to have to pay them via taxes for a service you won't ever use it would probably piss you off.

plus what about android, it's hard enough getting something standardized on it this would just be hell, and if someone decides that they don't want to use google services (such as the /e/ project or whatever it's called cause it went though a name change recently) what happens to them?

 

while people do need to be payed, in this situation, it would of been better if the U.S payed apple themselves instead of dumping it on their taxpayers.

How would you discern who to collect taxes from with that? What about people who have an iPad and a pixel? It is impossible to tax people based off of there phone as people change phones often and people also may have devices they don’t use as a phone such as old phones or tablets but still run the same OS

EDIT:

in addition, the taxpayers pay the US, so the taxpayers pay for it either way

Edited November 15, 2021 by danthe_only_man
Merged 2 posts into one

[TheEggComputer]

deleted. see above post for what was here

Edited November 15, 2021 by danthe_only_man
took this text and put it into my other post

[Donut417]

3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

It's funny everyone presents it as "Apple wants taxpayers money!!!!!!11111". Do people think companies that make physical ID's are charities? They get tax payer money too for design and production of gov issued ID's. But evil Apple, how dare they expect monetary compensation for work! And from your taxes! Outrageous!

However the government asked those companies to do that service. Also the government is the one doing the service at the end. I need a new license I go to the local Secretary of State office which is staffed by GOVERNMENT employees. The GOVERNMENT is the one who takes my photo and takes all my info. The Government is the one who mails me the ID. 

 

My question is did the government ask Apple to offer this service? If so, then they are entitled to tax payer dollars, if not they are not entitled. Apple could have simply charged a subscription fee to each subscriber who wanted to use the service. 

[Arika]

13 hours ago, comander said:

As an FYI, if you're going to do a digital ID card... keep an extra, old phone in your vehicle JUST for handing over to law enforcement. This phone should have basically NOTHING on it. Factory wipe it. Include your ID, your insurance card (ideally a pdf, not an app) and have basically 0 web history, app use, etc. 

Or just......use the physical cards you get.

 

This is what I don't get about digital wallets on phones.

A card is

• Thinner
• More convenient 
• Doesn't need to be charged 
• Doesn't need a connection to any outside source at any time.

[mr moose]

18 hours ago, Buck Russell said:

that's my issue as well. if it's an apple service, apple should pay for it.

Love the avatar, the world needs more john candy's.

14 hours ago, RejZoR said:

It's funny everyone presents it as "Apple wants taxpayers money!!!!!!11111". Do people think companies that make physical ID's are charities? They get tax payer money too for design and production of gov issued ID's. But evil Apple, how dare they expect monetary compensation for work! And from your taxes! Outrageous!

Except with those guys when the state issues the ID/contract, the citizens pay for it (either with tax dollars or straight up) and then the citizen gets the ID,  with this system apple is asking for taxpayers to fund it but only apple owners can use it. So while half the population is paying for it, they will never be able to use it.  

 

 

 

 

[Imbadatnames]

Would this save the government money in the long run? Let apple build all the infrastructure to replace your old outdated shit?

[Video Beagle]

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

\This is what I don't get about digital wallets on phones.

A card is

• Thinner
• More convenient 
• Doesn't need to be charged 
• Doesn't need a connection to any outside source at any time.

A card is: Something else you need to carry in addition to the phone you already carry.

 

15 hours ago, danthe_only_man said:

The difference is that the companies that make the physical id’s are government contractors.

 

I'm sure Apple is already a goverment contractor...most big tech companies are.

15 hours ago, danthe_only_man said:

Do banks pay apple to work with Wallet? Probably not

Do store memberships? Again, probably not. 

 

Yes they do.

15 hours ago, danthe_only_man said:

 

 

13 hours ago, Donut417 said:

My question is did the government ask Apple to offer this service? If so, then they are entitled to tax payer dollars,

Irrelevant. Companies and other groups offer to provide service to goverments. Governments decide if they wish to purchase or fund those services.

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

 with this system apple is asking for taxpayers to fund it but only apple owners can use it. So while half the population is paying for it, they will never be able to use it.  

That's how things work. Government pays for things that not everyone is going to, or gets to, or can, use.

 

15 hours ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

, it would of been better if the U.S payed apple themselves instead of dumping it on their taxpayers.

That's how the goverment pays for things. They collect taxes and use that to pay for things.

 

23 hours ago, Paul Thexton said:

Until you mentioned cars not having to pass inspection I genuinely thought you were describing the U.K.

Some states (mine for example) have car inspections...some don't.

20 hours ago, LAwLz said:

n any case, from what I've seen as an ignorant outsider, the US ID system is fucked beyond belief, and even if this proposed system is flawed, I wouldn't be surprised if it's better than what you currently have.

This is just having a legally usable electronic COPY of an id you have..not an ID system in and of itself.

[Donut417]

10 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

Irrelevant. Companies and other groups offer to provide service to goverments. Governments decide if they wish to purchase or fund those services.

If the government didn't request the service then the government shouldn't have to pay for it. PERIOD. Also I didnt say corporations didnt provide government services, but the government has decided to contract those companies for those services. A company cant just decide Im going to provide a government service and get tax dollars without government approval. 

[Video Beagle]

12 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

If the government didn't request the service then the government shouldn't have to pay for it. PERIOD. Also I didnt say corporations didnt provide government services, but the government has decided to contract those companies for those services. A company cant just decide Im going to provide a government service and get tax dollars without government approval. 

...so a landscaping company thinks "the city would look good if the median's had flowers" and proposes that to the city government......they shouldn't get paid to do the work because the city government didn't come up with the idea?

 

[Donut417]

1 hour ago, Video Beagle said:

...so a landscaping company thinks "the city would look good if the median's had flowers" and proposes that to the city government......they shouldn't get paid to do the work because the city government didn't come up with the idea?

 

Did Apple ask the government if they needed this service? That’s my point. Unless the government explicitly asked, then the government shouldnt have to pay. Also technically speaking Apple would need to go state to state. Uncle Sam doesn’t issue IDs outside of passports. 

[Lightwreather]

3 hours ago, Imbadatnames said:

Let apple build all the infrastructure to replace your old outdated shit?

That isn't the case here. From what I can gather, the states still have to manage their own servers and stuff

[Imbadatnames]

26 minutes ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

That isn't the case here. From what I can gather, the states still have to manage their own servers and stuff

So the cost would either be updating their own shit or paying apple to do it for them? 

[Dominik W]

On 11/15/2021 at 12:30 AM, emosun said:

 cars dont even have to pass inspections here

Ehhh here in Illinois they have to pass an emissions test. But yeah that's it. Definitely plenty of cars that shouldn't be on the road.

[WhitetailAni]

1 minute ago, Dominik W said:

Ehhh here in Illinois they have to pass an emissions test. But yeah that's it. Definitely plenty of cars that shouldn't be on the road.

The emissions tests aren't done as often as they should though which makes them pretty useless. There should definitely should be more strict laws on what's road safe and what's not though.

[Dominik W]

1 minute ago, FakeKGB said:

The emissions tests aren't done as often as they should though which makes them pretty useless. There should definitely should be more strict laws on what's road safe and what's not though.

And sometimes there are cars that pass yet they look like a heap of junk that's on fire.

[WhitetailAni]

1 minute ago, Dominik W said:

And sometimes there are cars that pass yet they look like a heap of junk that's on fire.

One time I saw a truck driving on the highway that was literally spurting small jets of fire from the back occasionally.

No one called the police or did anything; we ended up driving somewhat near it for 2 hours on our way to Minnesota to visit relatives.

[StDragon]

On 11/15/2021 at 12:30 AM, emosun said:

cars dont even have to pass inspections here , so yeah it makes sense nothing here is modern.

You must not live in Texas where an annual safety and emission inspection is required. It's it's OBD-1 (1995 and older), the car is run on a dynamometer to put the engine under load as an instrument sniffs the exhaust gases. If it's OBD-2 (1996 and newer), they just connect a plug to the OBD-2 socket located somewhere around the driver side dash (usually under the steering wheel) and pull readiness stats.

I had a Miata that needed to be sold because the engine was so carbon fouled it required rebuilding the engine. It wasn't worth the time. The buyer was a mechanical that loved working on those cars, so it was no problem. But otherwise it would never have passed as the carbon fouling was deep and way past just an EGR valve fault code.

[StDragon]

I'm surprised this isn't being headed by ID.me given it's required to manage your US SSN and IRS accounts already.

[Zodiark1593]

In the sense that Apple would effectively be a government contractor, I don’t have a problem with this. Government doesn’t like what Apple is offering, they can take the taxpayer dollars elsewhere. 
 

That said, if the government can get Apple on board with building a platform-agnostic solution for identification (I’d at least trust Apple to have better built software than the likes of corporations like Equifax), and are also willing to maintain it for multiple decades, I’d be totally willing to put forth some of my tax dollars on it. 

[Donut417]

2 hours ago, StDragon said:

You must not live in Texas where an annual safety and emission inspection is required.

Sadly many states dont have this. Michigan allows about any POS on the road. I mean there are some you look at and are like "Da fuck" because they look so unsafe. We have many cars that have been in accidents that are still driving and you know for a fact that the safety features are no longer functioning. 

 

6 hours ago, comander said:

I don't get how the second one is thinner or more convenient. 

Its the government is not about whats convenient. I guarantee there will be places that wont take electronic ID's. Also you have to consider that in many instances your ID might need to be photocopied. For example if you want to get a job. So its not like you cant just not carry it. Also, you feel comfortable giving a police officer your phone? I dont, I trust cops about as far as I can throw them which isn't very far. 

 

14 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

n the sense that Apple would effectively be a government contractor, I don’t have a problem with this. Government doesn’t like what Apple is offering, they can take the taxpayer dollars elsewhere. 

Looking in to it deeper, only a few states have signed on. This is not going to spread across the US. Because many states probably wouldn't want to spend the money. Probably the best chance this has coming to Michigan is as a direct ballot initiative. But I dont see people passing something thats going to cost them money. 

[wamred]

Oof, thats rough.

[Donut417]

54 minutes ago, comander said:

The last time I needed my ID photocoppied was to go to a gym a decade ago. 

About every time I go get blood taken. They take my insurance card and ID. Any time I go to the dentist, both of which do a photo copy. Hell I think even T Mobile need copies of my ID when I choose to sign up and if I need to finance anything on my account. So it does happen. 

[Zodiark1593]

1 hour ago, comander said:

I did mention having a burner phone for in your car in the event that you're pulled over. With that said, depending on implementation, you might not even need to unlock your phone for LEOs. I don't trust LEO much myself but even though in MOST cases, most cops are fine. If I'm actually being detained, that's another story. 

At least in the US, pretty sure you can tell an officer to “eff off” if they ask to unlock your phone, detained or not. They’re free to take a crack at it themselves if they feel like it, and have an applicable warrant.