German government voting over mandatory updates for smart devices (Smartphones, TVs, smart appliances,...)

[AnonymousGuy]

All this is going to end up with is an update that just changes the version number from 1.01 to 1.02 every couple weeks, automatically.  And if they try to force actual meaningful updates let me introduce you to my "EU Update Support VAT".

 

And then of course it's more red tape that fucks over everyone who isn't a mega-conglomerate with a building full of weebs to comply with all these laws.

[DeScruff]

One could hope that this would incentivize longer product cycles. (logic being: Less products out there, less you need to maintain at a time).
Or whatever kinda pressure is needed on whoever to make things like security updates dependent on OEMs/providers.
But I doubt it.

That later one needs to be written into the law too or else that is a big loophole.
An OEM can "make" an update, but that doesn't mean that the user will get their update, if the update is reliant on a service provider who depending on the wording in this law might not need to provide these updates.

semi related side rant:

Spoiler

Who thought OTA updates decided by service providers were a good idea?

I remember when I bought a phone years ago, I couldn't update to the latest version of Android, even though it was available for my phone, because Verizon didn't do an OTA update yet. (And wouldn't for apparently another 7 months) But using the sim card of a friend on Sprint, I could and did update!... then I swapped back to my sim card, and I had no issues what so ever.
Eventually installed Lineage OS on that phone once it stopped getting updates, but Lineage OS was still getting updates (including those annoying April fools day updates that you always ended up getting a week after april fools.) And would you look at that, Verizon had nothing to do with the updates there.

Then Cable Modems... You can't do firmware upgrades on them, only your internet provider can. Why?
Its not like providers block your modem if its on a certain firmware, you can buy a used modem with updated firmware on Ebay, and it will work.
This kinda practice leads to devices being shipped with issues that never will be able to be fixed - Even if the manufacturer does their due diligence and does make a firmware update available.

 

[Helpful Tech Witch]

On 6/22/2021 at 3:05 PM, Anghammarad said:

Finally my 6 year old daily driver Nokia Lumia 830 will get updates again =) 

 

(it just won't break, has still excellent reception, battery lasts 2 days etc) ... and my late wife told me, if it ain't broken, you don't need a new one... well... shouldn't have bought a nokia then...

If i could get a modern browser, id probably be using a lumia icon, its a great phone.

[Kadzo]

On 6/22/2021 at 11:03 PM, Anghammarad said:

Then just look back a "few" years... cars lasted half a million miles if you treated them well, without the engine breaking.

Washing machines worked 20+ years without a bigger failure, TVs worked 10+ years etc... 

 

and now... well... things are built to last mostly only a little after the warranty span... 

 

Same with support. 

 

I think there are way too many devices coming out each year which really aren't necessary in regard of performance of the previous generation... sure every few years there is a leap in performance, but then if your device still handles the things you use it for in a manner you are ok with, why get a new one, use it until it really is dead in a natural way.

 

 

Its called planned obsolescence and that is one of the marvellous things that corporate capitalistic greed has given us.    

[Jet_ski]

Maybe Samsung won’t brick people’s smart tv functionalities anymore. F-in Samsung outright bricked the WiFi and USB ports on my TV just 3 years after I bought it.

[NeuesTestament]

This was passed, so I guess we will see now whether it will make a difference

[mr moose]

If there is one thing that is making me a bitter old man it is this new technology that doesn't last, my first mobile phone stopped working because after 10 years and the need for refined bandwidth,  they turned off the analog towers. Not because it broke, became a security risk, wasn't compatible with new OS updates, Bent or had an undersized battery. 

 

Anything that at least sets the stage to require manufacturers provide longevity in products (even if it doesn't at the outset) is a move in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.   We can do a shit load more for the environment by making our phones last an extra 2 years than any foreseeable recycling program ever will.

[corsairian]

You shouldn't be able to buy phones that don't recieve updates. My first HTC phone the only update I remember getting in the 2 or 3 years was from Android 2.3.5 to Android 2.3.7. It was purchased new from a carrier. 

[WolframaticAlpha]

On 6/23/2021 at 1:35 AM, Anghammarad said:

Finally my 6 year old daily driver Nokia Lumia 830 will get updates again =) 

 

(it just won't break, has still excellent reception, battery lasts 2 days etc) ... and my late wife told me, if it ain't broken, you don't need a new one... well... shouldn't have bought a nokia then...

Damn, I need to come to germany and update my lumia 625

[leadeater]

5 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Damn, I need to come to germany and update my lumia 625

Same, my Lumia 635 also needs an update.

[captain_to_fire]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Same, my Lumia 635 also needs an update.

Can the German government force Microsoft to update Windows Phones within Germany though when they've declared the OS as dead?

[leadeater]

33 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Can the German government force Microsoft to update Windows Phones within Germany though when they've declared the OS as dead?

No idea, though it would effectively die trying to run a newer version of Windows Mobile lol. Lumia 635 is weak AF.

[captain_to_fire]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Lumia 635 is weak AF.

The world has come a long way since the short era of Windows Phones.

 

NZ prices from what I saw

• iPhone 11 64 GB: NZ$ 1,129
• iPhone Xr 64 GB: NZ$ 949
• Galaxy S20 FE 128 GB: NZ$ 1099
• Galaxy A72 256 GB: NZ$ 799

 

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

The world has come a long way since the short era of Windows Phones.

 

NZ prices from what I saw

• iPhone 11 64 GB: NZ$ 1,129
• iPhone Xr 64 GB: NZ$ 949
• Galaxy S20 FE 128 GB: NZ$ 1099
• Galaxy A72 256 GB: NZ$ 799

 

Why buy a phone when work gives me one 

[captain_to_fire]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Why buy a phone when work gives me one 

flexing those sysadmin privileges I see lol

[leadeater]

15 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

flexing those sysadmin privileges I see lol

lol even the gardeners get work provided phones, some of them being the highest mobile data usage as they play music all day with them.

 

 

Though to be fair one of the main reasons all staff have them is we enforce MFA so work provided phones are our MFA device.

[NeuesTestament]

3 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

Can the German government force Microsoft to update Windows Phones within Germany though when they've declared the OS as dead?

Highly unlikely. However this law is not going to give Windows Phone owners any hope I am afraid

[Anghammarad]

13 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Damn, I need to come to germany and update my lumia 625

I got another 830 in my desk as replacement =) ... I even opened it up to continuum, which should only work with 950 and 950xl

[XWAUForceflow]

19 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

Can the German government force Microsoft to update Windows Phones within Germany though when they've declared the OS as dead?

Usually those laws are not retrospectively, so I am afraid there's not much hope for that. It will most likely only be valid for new stuff and with the unclear wording it's going to be a while until things are more clear. While it is a bit annoying that it's so unspecific now it does make sense in the long run. The 'consumer can expect' is open to interpretation, yes. But it's also highly flexible so that it could easily mean that there are different rules for not only different types of equipment (I'd expect to use a car for longer than a phone) but also for different price ranges (I'd expect to use a very high priced phone for longer than a bargain bin phone). It's stupid that they don't add any sort of real guidelines (but yeah, German lawmakers tend to make really, really badly worded laws these days) but usually the courts in Germany tend to be fairly reasonable and consumer friendly in many cases. So the ambiguity might be a good thing down the line once the consumer protection agency (bad translation but cannot think of a better word for Verbraucherschutz) starts opening legal cases...

[hishnash]

On 6/23/2021 at 5:00 PM, Mihle said:

If German law is anything like Norwegian law, it normal for laws to be less spesific than what you see in US, US law is usually very spesific on everything in comparison and then get longer.

 

Germany does not use common law so judges are not able to de-facto `update` the law as it gets out of date. So they prefer to leave things open so that there is room for judges to operate and make judgements. Since even 40 years later the law that applies is what was passed by parliament rather than the last 40 years of cases so more space is left in the law for judges to interpret and the exception is this interpolation will change over time ( i believe you can use past judgements interpretations as evidence but there is no implicitly requirements for a judge to emulate that interpolation again).

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, hishnash said:

Germany does not use common law so judges are not able to de-facto `update` the law as it gets out of date.

That's quite an interesting difference. I would still expected that judges still look at past cases and rulings but it's just they those previous ones have no legal or judicial binding?

[DoctorNick]

On 6/22/2021 at 10:05 PM, Anghammarad said:

Finally my 6 year old daily driver Nokia Lumia 830 will get updates again =) 

 

(it just won't break, has still excellent reception, battery lasts 2 days etc) ... and my late wife told me, if it ain't broken, you don't need a new one... well... shouldn't have bought a nokia then...

Get new wife

[Avocado Diaboli]

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That's quite an interesting difference. I would still expected that judges still look at past cases and rulings but it's just they those previous ones have no legal or judicial binding?

Not really, the civil law system generally requires each case to be looked at in the context of the currently applicable law, regardless of whatever other court has ruled before. There are certain narrow cases where precedent applies, but that's usually reserved in cases where a higher court determines how exactly a given law has to be interpreted. But even then, a later ruling does not have to follow said precedent, since the precedent in itself has no guiding authority, it's merely a guideline, a means to interpret the law to help later judges to form a verdict. The only case where a court dramatically intervenes with the legislative interpretation of a law is when they deem it unconstitutional and therefore remove it from the body of law entirely. 

 

Honestly, to me it sounds like insanity to have to check every single court decision backwards through the centuries in order to understand how a law is applied. Imagine reading the changelog to any given software and being required to not only know whatever has changed from the previous version to the most current one but also the entire catalog of changes that has been made to that same function since the software was created. Besides, it ignores societal change entirely. A ruling that might have looked like it was perfectly congruent with norms at the time might sound woefully inadequate nowadays, but if you necessarily have to follow that past ruling regardless of current circumstances, you're required to come to entirely unsatisfying conclusions.

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

But even then, a later ruling does not have to follow said precedent, since the precedent in itself has no guiding authority, it's merely a guideline, a means to interpret the law to help later judges to form a verdict.

Yea that's what I mean, like past cases are still good sources of information and surely can help.

 

11 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Honestly, to me it sounds like insanity to have to check every single court decision backwards through the centuries in order to understand how a law is applied.

I don't think that's how it's done, usually it's the last ruling that is the precedent and if you want to overturn that precedent you go back to past cases or find some other argument to change it.

 

Though in saying that I'm very much on the side of the 'Spirit of the Law' not the 'Letter of the Law' so I personally don't hold much stock in past cases that much.

[NeuesTestament]

1 hour ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

Honestly, to me it sounds like insanity to have to check every single court decision backwards through the centuries in order to understand how a law is applied. Imagine reading the changelog to any given software and being required to not only know whatever has changed from the previous version to the most current one but also the entire catalog of changes that has been made to that same function since the software was created.

I mean in practice it's never that bad since you have had smart people going through that stuff and cataloging it. So you never truly start at zero. Otherwise it would indeed just be madness.