Why Xbox will win in the long run (if Sony doesn't change things up)

[Warin]

Microsoft has said they are using the same architecture across the two machines, so there will be zero difference in the development of S/X titles.  But hey, what do they know, they just designed and implemented the architecture!

[Fatih19]

Throw away all the arguments that have been said in this thread, they're going to win in the long-run because the bought Zenimax Media, the parent company of Bethesda.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

10 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Nice claims with no evidence or argument. Well done have a gold star. 

Can't tell if you are a troll or genuinely don't understand game development process.   Do you want a full breakdown of why XBOX series S and XBOX series X divergence is a problem?

 

 

[Lord Vile]

10 minutes ago, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

Can't tell if you are a troll or genuinely don't understand game development process.   Do you want a full breakdown of why XBOX series S and XBOX series X divergence is a problem?

 

 

Yes why not.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

4 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Yes why not.

In this example we are creating an Medieval Adventure game.

 

It has a town, river, farmland and a large castle.

This game will have a large draw distance, so that you can see the farm land in the horizon with localised ray tracing. 

 

Life:

- Scripts manage NPC movement, and possible interactions. Response are decision tree based.

 

Assets include:

- multiple high resolution texture image for multi-textured grass, bricks etc...

- sounds...

 

Effects:

- We are using full Fast Fourier transformation across all effects, mist, water, fire. 

- localised and global illumination

 

In building this game you have several concerns:

• Draw distance to create a beautiful scenic game filled with life
• Use of best graphical technique for realistic textures
• Localised reflection, shadows of all NPCs, and ray tracing. 

If we don't render what you cannot see or interact with during optimisation, we still are left with a few questions around development and testing.

 

Can you use the exact same game design for 4K 60 on 1440p or 1080p 60?  It depends, you won't know without performance testing.  Extra Cost 1:  Testers needed to ensure performance maintenance on the game.

 

The above is a extensive AAA adventure, you have loaded the Series X codebase on the aand Series S and that you have several points or sustained framedrops, and high fan usage.  The visuals must be same, only the resolution can be different.   Extra Cost 2:  Redoing textures   Graphical fidelity reduction 1: Lower texture quality than originally intended    Graphical fidelity reduction 2: Lower the draw distance.  

 

I could go into more detail but I think the above is enough to illustrate the point.  The worse thing developers could do is use Xbox Series S as a base code, then they have made design decision on the most limiting hardware.

[Lord Vile]

Just now, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

In this example we are creating an Medieval Adventure game.

 

It has a town, river, farmland and a large castle.

This game will have a large draw distance, so that you can see the farm land in the horizon with localised ray tracing. 

 

Life:

- Scripts manage NPC movement, and possible interactions. Response are decision tree based.

CPU is the same, AI and logic are done by the CPU

Just now, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

 

Assets include:

- multiple high resolution texture image for multi-textured grass, bricks etc...

- sounds...

Sound is are more drivers not power and the S is running at a lower res you literally just drop a setting.

Just now, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

 

Effects:

- We are using full Fast Fourier transformation across all effects, mist, water, fire. 

- localised and global illumination

Again just drop settings that you'll be making anyway because PC is a thing.

Just now, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

 

In building this game you have several concerns:

• Draw distance to create a beautiful scenic game filled with life
• Use of best graphical technique for realistic textures
• Localised reflection, shadows of all NPCs, and ray tracing. 

Draw distance is CPU and GPU

Again the S is targeting a lower Res

Ray tracing is in both consoles and isn't indicated by Tflop count 

Just now, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

If we don't render what you cannot see or interact with during optimisation, we still are left with a few questions around development and testing.

 

Can you use the exact same game design for 4K 60 on 1440p or 1080p 60?  It depends, you won't know without performance testing.  Extra Cost 1:  Testers needed to ensure performance maintenance on the game.

You're testing the game anyway and you're gonna have to do it for PC

Just now, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

 

The above is a extensive AAA adventure, you have loaded the Series X codebase on the aand Series S and that you have several points or sustained framedrops, and high fan usage.  The visuals must be same, only the resolution can be different.   Extra Cost 2:  Redoing textures   Graphical fidelity reduction 1: Lower texture quality than originally intended    Graphical fidelity reduction 2: Lower the draw distance.  

Who said the visuals couldn't be different? 

Just now, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

 

I could go into more detail but I think the above is enough to illustrate the point.  The worse thing developers could do is use Xbox Series S as a base code, then they have made design decision on the most limiting hardware.

 

No you haven't. You're trying to hide the fact that all of these issues are solved by acknowledging games are put onto PCs and all of this "extra work" has to be done anyway for a PC release. The S is basically the X but instead of the for example 5700XT it has a 5500XT. You're being fairly disingenuous. 

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

36 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

CPU is the same, AI and logic are done by the CPU

Sound is are more drivers not power and the S is running at a lower res you literally just drop a setting.

Again just drop settings that you'll be making anyway because PC is a thing.

Draw distance is CPU and GPU

Again the S is targeting a lower Res

Ray tracing is in both consoles and isn't indicated by Tflop count 

You're testing the game anyway and you're gonna have to do it for PC

Who said the visuals couldn't be different? 

 

No you haven't. You're trying to hide the fact that all of these issues are solved by acknowledging games are put onto PCs and all of this "extra work" has to be done anyway for a PC release. The S is basically the X but instead of the for example 5700XT it has a 5500XT. You're being fairly disingenuous. 

Although CPU are not clocked at the same frequency, this is not an issue.  I think the CPU choice is good.

 

Draw distance and rendering of object within the space is primarily GPU bound, CPU just sends the instructions, performs the logic on what should be drawn.    
 

Sound assets were listed as an example item created prior to game development.   Are you trying to be combative?
 

Every review says “Microsoft says the game experience will be exactly the just at a different resolution”

 

I don’t lack sincerity.  You have made one clear assumption, you don’t believe there will ever be an Xbox exclusive.  You admit that you are happy for development to be delayed for additional testing for a PC version, and you are happy for this to result in a PlayStation version to be completed and released quicker in all instances.   You call me disingenuous, please...  move on troll

[Lord Vile]

1 hour ago, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

Draw distance and rendering of object within the space is primarily GPU bound, CPU just sends the instructions, performs the logic on what should be drawn.    
 

It's a mix, if you have a 2080Ti with a FX 8350 the draw distance will be horrendous

1 hour ago, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

Sound assets were listed as an example item created prior to game development.   Are you trying to be combative?
 

They're not relevant so why bring it up?

1 hour ago, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

Every review says “Microsoft says the game experience will be exactly the just at a different resolution”

https://www.xbox.com/en-GB/consoles/xbox-series-s I see nothing about it saying exactly the same game experience. Any sources from reviews of a console no-one has actually played yet?

1 hour ago, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

 

I don’t lack sincerity.  You have made one clear assumption, you don’t believe there will ever be an Xbox exclusive.  You admit that you are happy for development to be delayed for additional testing for a PC version, and you are happy for this to result in a PlayStation version to be completed and released quicker in all instances.   You call me disingenuous, please...  move on troll

There won't be, all Xbox titles launch on PC around the same time, their entire ethos is based around play anywhere and why would they care if people buy it on PC, they own both platforms. You can also get game pass on PC, I can't even remember the last Xbox exclusive that wasn't on Windows 10 too, a lot of them are even sold on steam (Flight Sim, MCC, gears etc) though Forza and Minecraft aren't for some reason you have to buy them on the Microsoft store. 

[rikitikitavi]

On 9/18/2020 at 6:15 AM, Lord Vile said:

The PS5 has literally no appeal at all. The only exclusive it has is a bloated DLC for a poor mans Arkham clone. The rest is ports and games you can get elsewhere.

God of War Ragnarok and whatever upcoming Naughty Dog games, how about that?! Sound like a platform selling exclusives.

[Lord Vile]

9 hours ago, rikitikitavi said:

God of War Ragnarok and whatever upcoming Naughty Dog games, how about that?! Sound like a platform selling exclusives.

Oh wow because the last god of war game was SOOOO good... PS exclusives are just poor versions of 3rd party titles. Also they’re not at launch. 
 

If you want great exclusives buy Nintendo 

[Letgomyleghoe.]

12 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

PS exclusives are just poor versions of 3rd party titles. Also they’re not at launch. 

IMO Demon Souls is the only good one and even then thats probably going to come to pc. 

[Lord Vile]

10 hours ago, Gundar said:

IMO Demon Souls is the only good one and even then thats probably going to come to pc. 

And that’s just a remaster/remake. 

[WereCatf]

On 10/3/2020 at 12:54 PM, Lord Vile said:

Oh wow because the last god of war game was SOOOO good

What are you on about? Most people do consider it very, very good and that includes professional critics as well. It definitely has been a system-seller on the PS4 and one can assume the same thing will happen with the next God of War - game as well.

[Lord Vile]

39 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

What are you on about? Most people do consider it very, very good and that includes professional critics as well. It definitely has been a system-seller on the PS4 and one can assume the same thing will happen with the next God of War - game as well.

Hype =/= good. 
 

It’s a hack and slash with all the pave ripped out of it, not fun just play DMCV

[WereCatf]

46 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Hype

How can it be hype, when the game has been out for two years already?

[rikitikitavi]

17 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Hype =/= good. 
 

It’s a hack and slash with all the pave ripped out of it, not fun just play DMCV

Have you played it? Actually put time in it? Otherwise ...

[rikitikitavi]

On 10/3/2020 at 2:54 AM, Lord Vile said:

If you want great exclusives buy Nintendo 

I would love to, but some Nintendo moves rub me the wrong way.

Not touching the hardware topics. The pricing is ridiculous - first party titles 2y+ old still go for CAD 80

[Lord Vile]

3 hours ago, rikitikitavi said:

I would love to, but some Nintendo moves rub me the wrong way.

Not touching the hardware topics. The pricing is ridiculous - first party titles 2y+ old still go for CAD 80

Because they're good games, they still sell for like £5 under full priced used. BoTW is still worth full price, Mario Odyssey is still worth full price.

 

3 hours ago, rikitikitavi said:

Have you played it? Actually put time in it? Otherwise ...

I have, it's just god of war minus the fun. 

[rikitikitavi]

8 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Because they're good games, they still sell for like £5 under full priced used. BoTW is still worth full price, Mario Odyssey is still worth full price

Well as far as I'm concerned, high price is acceptable premium to pay to get the game fresh... 2y+ is no fresh. if BoTW was CAD 40 including DLC's... I would buy it without owning a switch (so I could play it on PC without feeling very bad) lol

 

8 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

I have, it's just god of war minus the fun.

Oh well, to each their own

[Lord Vile]

41 minutes ago, rikitikitavi said:

Well as far as I'm concerned, high price is acceptable premium to pay to get the game fresh... 2y+ is no fresh. if BoTW was CAD 40 including DLC's... I would buy it without owning a switch (so I could play it on PC without feeling very bad) lol

No you're paying for the experience and games that have great gameplay and story generally hold value better than a game focused on graphics or artificially increasing playtime or those that are released every year. Zelda for example releases every 5 years or more, I mean the WiiU didn't even get it's own Zelda game just  remasters of windwaker and Skyward Sword. The last mainline game before BoTW was Skyward Sword in 2011. The last 3D Mario before Odyssey was Galaxy 2 and that was released in 2010. Contrast that to Uncharted that launched 4 games in 9 years or a 3rd party title like Assassins Creed that launched 11 games in 11 years. Each game is new and different and builds off the last in a unique way. Games like BoTW and Odyssey must be depressing for other devs to see because of just how Nintendo can hit it out of the park every single time. For example i've just ran through Mario 64 and Sunshine collecting the min stars to finish the game, now doing galaxy before I go back and 100% them all, but the gameplay of all three games is still very good even though 64 is 24 years old. I regularly run through Banjo Kazooie which is another game over 20 years old but the gameplay again is still better than most AAA games out there today. DK country Tropical Freeze is probably the best 2D platformer ever to grace store shelves. All in all games like BotW, Tropical Freeze and Mario odyssey will always be worth full price because nothing has eclipsed them. 

41 minutes ago, rikitikitavi said:

 

Oh well, to each their own

Not my fault you've fallen into, "slow gameplay makes everything more complex".

[rikitikitavi]

32 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

paying for the experience and games that have great gameplay and story generally hold value better

Not arguing, but 'hold value better' is not the same as 'not dropping in price'. Sure software is more on intangible scale, art, timeless etc, but it is entertainment, and is not in limited production/access (somewhat). 

 

49 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Not my fault you've fallen into, "slow gameplay makes everything more complex".

I would say 'more paced'  Was never into old GoW series or any other slasher/smasher

[Lord Vile]

1 hour ago, rikitikitavi said:

Not arguing, but 'hold value better' is not the same as 'not dropping in price'. Sure software is more on intangible scale, art, timeless etc, but it is entertainment, and is not in limited production/access (somewhat). 

It will drop eventually and you'll be able to get it used cheaper too but generally not until the next game is out which looks to be 2022 for Zelda and god knows for Mario.

1 hour ago, rikitikitavi said:

I would say 'more paced'  Was never into old GoW series or any other slasher/smasher

But there's plenty of game out there for that, there aren't many AAA hack and slash games left so you've both damaged the state of the genre and damaged GoW by turning it into what is a very generic action adventure game.

[rikitikitavi]

8 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

damaged GoW by turning it into what is a very generic action adventure game.

Well that ‘damaged and generic’ game might become the eclusive that makes the ps5 sell.

[Lord Vile]

43 minutes ago, rikitikitavi said:

Well that ‘damaged and generic’ game might become the eclusive that makes the ps5 sell.

Eh I’ll stick with Nintendo console wise because you actually get good exclusives. Hell Xbox will have the edge in a few years when Bethesda titles don’t come to the PS5.