Why Xbox will win in the long run (if Sony doesn't change things up)

[White Brownie]

Heads up: I never was a console guy, the only difference for me is the controller (because thats the part that I actually use) and there imo Xbox is far ahead.

For the actual topic though: I gotta say, that it Microsoft is behaving like they actually care about playing games and not just(!) their bottom line. The Game Pass (Ultimate) does a great job of offering good value for people on Xbox and PC and Android. Also as mentionend in the last WAN show the Xbox Series S/X have very affordable financing. This Tweet however seems like straigt from heaven - yes ofc. its also marketing bs. but I think that whoever wrote this tweet is an actual gamer themselv. It's hard to express what I'm thinking with words but maybe I could get it across for some of you.

TLDR.: Microsoft (Xbox) seems to actually care^TM about gamers^TM

[Fatih19]

Surprised Microsoft didn't resort to the Embrace Extend Extinguish strategy instead to crush Sony.

[porina]

MS are certainly changing how the battle is being fought, although we'll have to wait and see how it works. The defocusing from the hardware is to their advantage since they also directly benefit from PC gaming, so blurring the lines between the two helps them. On that note, you could argue then that PS5 will be "more different" from PC than XB, so if you had to get one console in addition to a gaming PC, PS5 could open more possibilities. I do wonder, how many people actively game on PC, on console (any), or a good mix of both?

[Lord Vile]

2 minutes ago, porina said:

MS are certainly changing how the battle is being fought, although we'll have to wait and see how it works. The defocusing from the hardware is to their advantage since they also directly benefit from PC gaming, so blurring the lines between the two helps them. On that note, you could argue then that PS5 will be "more different" from PC than XB, so if you had to get one console in addition to a gaming PC, PS5 could open more possibilities. I do wonder, how many people actively game on PC, on console (any), or a good mix of both?

If you're getting a PC and a console though why would you get a PS5 over a switch? It's the PS5 with worse versions of other AAA games vs literally the best games of all time.

[jaslion]

For me it has always been about the exclusives. I wait till there are enough games I want that I cannot play anywhere else and then nab the cheapest possible used version of the console to play them. Then afterwards I sell the console again as it's use has ended. I also make sure to get the disk versions of the game for that reason so I can sell it again.

 

This is why a switch or maybe ps5 (their exclusive lineup as of now does not interest me) would be a purchase I'd make over a xbox as I need a decent system to do my hobbies on anyways and due to that it can play games too so an xbox is useless to me.

[porina]

2 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

If you're getting a PC and a console though why would you get a PS5 over a switch? It's the PS5 with worse versions of other AAA games vs literally the best games of all time.

Maybe I should have expanded a bit on that, but I meant high end (graphically speaking) gaming. The Switch is its own niche, kinda like mobile gaming. As such the contenders for this discussion are only PS, XB, PC. I do own a Wii, DS and later 3DS, but nothing on the Switch has made me want to get one. I don't have the nostalgia for Nintendo main series games.

 

2 hours ago, jaslion said:

For me it has always been about the exclusives.

Kinda this. I don't buy consoles to have a console, I buy a console to have access to games on that console. For example, I got the PS4 primarily to play FFXV, which I didn't like, so I'm not getting the PS5 for FFXVI. Before that, I got the XB 360 for Kinectimals. I think it a big loss Kinect is dead, it would be a great compliment to VR of today I think. The other normal games on the 360 were pretty meh. I got the Dreamcast just to play House of the Dead 2, with light guns.

[Lord Vile]

30 minutes ago, porina said:

Maybe I should have expanded a bit on that, but I meant high end (graphically speaking) gaming. The Switch is its own niche, kinda like mobile gaming. As such the contenders for this discussion are only PS, XB, PC. I do own a Wii, DS and later 3DS, but nothing on the Switch has made me want to get one. I don't have the nostalgia for Nintendo main series games.

You don't need nostalgia. BoTW and Mario Odyssey are genre defining titles along with Smash which is a really good fighting game, Mario Kart 8 which if you're not looking for amazing graphics is a quality racer amongst other thigs

 

Would also like to point out that good graphics do not make a game good, gameplay does. 

 

The PS5 has literally no appeal at all. The only exclusive it has is a bloated DLC for a poor mans Arkham clone. The rest is ports and games you can get elsewhere.

[jaslion]

41 minutes ago, porina said:

Maybe I should have expanded a bit on that, but I meant high end (graphically speaking) gaming. The Switch is its own niche, kinda like mobile gaming. As such the contenders for this discussion are only PS, XB, PC. I do own a Wii, DS and later 3DS, but nothing on the Switch has made me want to get one. I don't have the nostalgia for Nintendo main series games.

 

Kinda this. I don't buy consoles to have a console, I buy a console to have access to games on that console. For example, I got the PS4 primarily to play FFXV, which I didn't like, so I'm not getting the PS5 for FFXVI. Before that, I got the XB 360 for Kinectimals. I think it a big loss Kinect is dead, it would be a great compliment to VR of today I think. The other normal games on the 360 were pretty meh. I got the Dreamcast just to play House of the Dead 2, with light guns.

The kinect was honestly a great piece of tech but it was underutilized. With vr we may see a return of something like it.

 

I got a ps4 pro new with the last guardian bundled in due to a fault in their software for 199€ so that was an amazing deal. I got a ps4 for tetris, the last guardian, shadow of the colossus and maybe last of us 2 (was just rumours back then and would have been nice to have but not a dealbreaker). I played the games and then sold the ps4 pro and everything else at a 60$ profit even. Really enjoyed playing the games but after that the ps4 was in the way and it had to go. Really helps it had warranty and was literally just in newstate as I hadn't even touched it part from putting in a game.

[porina]

2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

You don't need nostalgia. BoTW and Mario Odyssey are genre defining titles along with Smash which is a really good fighting game, Mario Kart 8 which if you're not looking for amazing graphics is a quality racer amongst other thigs

Nintendo 1st party games have their own style, and I'm really not fussed over it. If you take that away, they really aren't that special. Still good I'm sure, but not fanboy levels of excitement. I actually don't mind the party games, in small doses, with friends. I'll just play on their system. No need to have my own.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Would also like to point out that good graphics do not make a game good, gameplay does. 

100% agree with this, but still, there is a place for higher level graphics, and the Switch is not where I'd go to find that. I'd go one step further. I think strongly story lead games are making the gaming part worse, not better.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

The PS5 has literally no appeal at all. The only exclusive it has is a bloated DLC for a poor mans Arkham clone. The rest is ports and games you can get elsewhere.

If it weren't for the design decisions taken since FFVX, also used in FFVIIR, I would have been all over FFXVI. Timed exclusive is still enough reason to pick a console. I'm sure there'll eventually be the next Gran Turismo, still my preferred driving game series on any platform. Didn't take to Forza at all on 360 or PC when I tried it. And that's part of not "needing" an XB, if much of the games will be on PC anyway.

[Lord Vile]

3 minutes ago, porina said:

Nintendo 1st party games have their own style, and I'm really not fussed over it. If you take that away, they really aren't that special. Still good I'm sure, but not fanboy levels of excitement. I actually don't mind the party games, in small doses, with friends. I'll just play on their system. No need to have my own.

Again they are literally genre defining games. BoTW is the definitive action adventure game and Odyssey is the same for 3D platformers.

3 minutes ago, porina said:

 

100% agree with this, but still, there is a place for higher level graphics, and the Switch is not where I'd go to find that. I'd go one step further. I think strongly story lead games are making the gaming part worse, not better.

There is a place but unfortunately most AAA games control like shit and are all variations of the same damn game 

3 minutes ago, porina said:

 

If it weren't for the design decisions taken since FFVX, also used in FFVIIR, I would have been all over FFXVI. Timed exclusive is still enough reason to pick a console. I'm sure there'll eventually be the next Gran Turismo, still my preferred driving game series on any platform. Didn't take to Forza at all on 360 or PC when I tried it. And that's part of not "needing" an XB, if much of the games will be on PC anyway.

It's really not. That's like saying you'd buy exclusively from the EGS and lock yourself out of steam because they had Borderlands 3 early.

 

GT has been disappointing for me, I had 5 prologue for the PS3 and what I've played since i haven't liked, personally play F1 for a sim racing game and Horizon 4 for Arcady, mario kart for just fun and frustration at the same time.

 

Currently Sony exclusives have been meh or come to PC anyway, the only one I've wanted to play is Zero dawn which is now on PC all the others are just bad versions of 3rd party. Spiderman is just a less interesting Arkham game, God of war is what happens if you take DMCV, suck all the fun out of it and half heartedly try to set it like a dark souls game and all the others just aren't worth spending £500 on hardware for.

[porina]

2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Again they are literally genre defining games. BoTW is the definitive action adventure game and Odyssey is the same for 3D platformers.

Doesn't matter. I really don't care about them. Different people have different interests.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

There is a place but unfortunately most AAA games control like shit and are all variations of the same damn game 

That I partially agree with. How many variations on a first person shooter do we need, even with variations in additional mechanics between them?

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

It's really not. That's like saying you'd buy exclusively from the EGS and lock yourself out of steam because they had Borderlands 3 early.

No, I'm saying I'll get a system if there are games I want on it badly enough. Today, the number of XB and PS5 games I want are exactly zero, so I'm not buying either. If a future Gran Turismo comes out for PS5, and doesn't suck, that might be enough to temp me to get it. If some unknown future XB exclusive title comes out that I find must have, I'll get one then. However if the game is a timed exclusive on XB or PS5, and will later come to PC, then I'll have to decide if I want to wait or not. It is my opinion that XB will have fewer exclusive games, so I'm more likely to get a PS5 on that basis. Not that I will get a PS5.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Currently Sony exclusives have been meh or come to PC anyway, the only one I've wanted to play is Zero dawn which is now on PC all the others are just bad versions of 3rd party. Spiderman is just a less interesting Arkham game, God of war is what happens if you take DMCV, suck all the fun out of it and half heartedly try to set it like a dark souls game and all the others just aren't worth spending £500 on hardware for.

We have different interests, but the titles you listed above, I also have zero interest for. 

[Lord Vile]

6 minutes ago, porina said:

Doesn't matter. I really don't care about them. Different people have different interests.

"They aren't really that special" when they are literally the best game released in the last 10 years

6 minutes ago, porina said:

 

That I partially agree with. How many variations on a first person shooter do we need, even with variations in additional mechanics between them?

It's more 3rd person action adventure in a sandbox with stealth and crafting elements which defines pretty much every action adventure game with very little innovation. BoTW is so good for example because of how it allows you to mess with the sandbox and physics, it does something new.

6 minutes ago, porina said:

 

No, I'm saying I'll get a system if there are games I want on it badly enough. Today, the number of XB and PS5 games I want are exactly zero, so I'm not buying either. If a future Gran Turismo comes out for PS5, and doesn't suck, that might be enough to temp me to get it. If some unknown future XB exclusive title comes out that I find must have, I'll get one then. However if the game is a timed exclusive on XB or PS5, and will later come to PC, then I'll have to decide if I want to wait or not. It is my opinion that XB will have fewer exclusive games, so I'm more likely to get a PS5 on that basis. Not that I will get a PS5.

Microsoft are releasing all games on PC which is good. Consoles have their place and personally I don't think exclusives make someone buy a PlayStation when they already have a PC, at least in a way that would make sony money. Personally if there was a game I HAD to play I'd buy a used PS4 when they're under £200, slap an SSD inside it and get the games used for like £10-15. Exclusivity between consoles makes sense because you're gonna buy one box or the other but I don't get why they just don't launch it on PC where they get the same cut as they would at a physical store or even have their own PS launcher. One of the few that would make sense.

 

[porina]

4 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

"They aren't really that special" when they are literally the best game released in the last 10 years

It still doesn't matter if it is the best anything, if I'm not interested in it. I have watched others playing Switch games, and I might follow a bit for the story but I see no need to do it myself. 

 

If it gives any insight on my thought process, my top 3 games in terms of time spent this year (not in any order) would be FFXIV (PC, also on PS4), Azur Lane (mobile), Cities Skylines (PC, also available on console without mod support). Honourable mention to Pokemon Go (mobile). Yes, I still do that.

 

Thinking more, the games I played on DS/3DS were mainly the Pokemon series and Professor Layton, with a spot of imported Taiko No Tatsujin thrown in. On the first two, it rapidly became clear that games in the series were essentially the same as earlier games, perhaps with a new mechanic or two and upgraded graphics. That's another problem for the industry. How do you continue a series keeping it same enough to be familiar, but at the same time, also different enough to offer something new? It feels very much like if you played one game in the series, the rest aren't that different. 

 

4 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Personally if there was a game I HAD to play I'd buy a used PS4 when they're under £200, slap an SSD inside it and get the games used for like £10-15.

Unfortunately slapping in a SSD, while it helps a bit, makes far less difference than you might hope. Files are optimised for HD and I think choke the CPU during decompression, so the disk is less of a bottleneck. I hope the next gen effectively eliminates that problem.

 

4 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Exclusivity between consoles makes sense because you're gonna buy one box or the other but I don't get why they just don't launch it on PC where they get the same cut as they would at a physical store or even have their own PS launcher. One of the few that would make sense.

Maybe I'm too far away from console gaming to really understand the market. I'm viewing as a PC orientated gamer right now. 

 

One more thing for PS, I do have PSVR and while it isn't as good as a good PC VR setup, it's a stepping stone. If there's a PSVR successor for PS5, that could be interesting too. MS seems to have given up on trying different things and sticking with traditional TV gaming.

[PlayStation 2]

4 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

If you're getting a PC and a console though why would you get a PS5 over a switch? It's the PS5 with worse versions of other AAA games vs literally the best games of all time.

Games being built for the better machine is going to depend on how this generation plays out. The 7th and 8th generations did tend to favor the more powerful and overall better pieces of kit (the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 4) but the 6th generation was well-known for games being built for the PlayStation 2 and then scaled up from there, maybe with some performance improvements or maybe with graphical enhancements, but realistically, if the PS5 takes the crown this generation, then games will only get slight improvements on the Series X as games are built around the PS5 hardware.

[centurion_08]

5 hours ago, porina said:

MS are certainly changing how the battle is being fought, although we'll have to wait and see how it works. The defocusing from the hardware is to their advantage since they also directly benefit from PC gaming, so blurring the lines between the two helps them. On that note, you could argue then that PS5 will be "more different" from PC than XB, so if you had to get one console in addition to a gaming PC, PS5 could open more possibilities. I do wonder, how many people actively game on PC, on console (any), or a good mix of both?

That's a very interesting question indeed.

[Lord Vile]

16 hours ago, handymanshandle said:

Games being built for the better machine is going to depend on how this generation plays out. The 7th and 8th generations did tend to favor the more powerful and overall better pieces of kit (the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 4) but the 6th generation was well-known for games being built for the PlayStation 2 and then scaled up from there, maybe with some performance improvements or maybe with graphical enhancements, but realistically, if the PS5 takes the crown this generation, then games will only get slight improvements on the Series X as games are built around the PS5 hardware.

Games are likely going to be built for PC then optimised for the consoles. Also with the PS5s thermal solution and use of boost clocks devs are gonna hate it. 

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

13 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Games are likely going to be built for PC then optimised for the consoles. Also with the PS5s thermal solution and use of boost clocks devs are gonna hate it. 

It is factually incorrect.

 

Developers factor in the release dates of the games then production is planned to meet deadlines. The first step is usually to create the assets, voice script, and tools.  Then fire up their engine on the platform SDK and start work.  Development if the release date is the same for each platform will have a development teams for platform specific coding and testing.

 

Developers are actually frustrated by Microsoft's XBOX Series S and Series X divergence, it greatly increased development and testing.  2 Target architectures, means more asset creation, more complex tools, more test scripts.....

 

Source: I know first party studio testers and third party game developers.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

On 9/18/2020 at 10:56 AM, White Brownie said:

 

There isn't alot of margin on consoles.  There is alot of margin on subscription services.

 

While i applaud their neutrality in the response, isn't entirely out of the goodness of their heart

[Lord Vile]

13 hours ago, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

It is factually incorrect.

 

Developers factor in the release dates of the games then production is planned to meet deadlines. The first step is usually to create the assets, voice script, and tools.  Then fire up their engine on the platform SDK and start work.  Development if the release date is the same for each platform will have a development teams for platform specific coding and testing.

 

Developers are actually frustrated by Microsoft's XBOX Series S and Series X divergence, it greatly increased development and testing.  2 Target architectures, means more asset creation, more complex tools, more test scripts.....

 

Source: I know first party studio testers and third party game developers.

But arch is the same on both consoles it’s just less powerful. Turn down the target res, frame rate and settings on the S and it’s done. Having to compensate for a console losing significant power because some people don’t clean their consoles or shove it into a tight space is annoying AF

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

14 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

But arch is the same on both consoles it’s just less powerful. Turn down the target res, frame rate and settings on the S and it’s done. Having to compensate for a console losing significant power because some people don’t clean their consoles or shove it into a tight space is annoying AF

Xbox Series S and series X have different clock speed on the CPU, completely different GPU, different ram speed, and different resolutions.

 

I am not sure you quite understand how all those differences impact development. 

[Lord Vile]

3 minutes ago, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

Xbox Series S and series X have different clock speed on the CPU, completely different GPU, different ram speed, and different resolutions.

 

I am not sure you quite understand how all those differences impact development. 

But at least they’re steady. With the PS5 you’re gonna have to optimise it over the range of frequencies the PS5 will ramp up and down to on the GPU and CPU. 
 

Also the S had a cut down GPU it’s still RDNA2

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

1 minute ago, Lord Vile said:

But at least they’re steady. With the PS5 you’re gonna have to optimise it over the range of frequencies the PS5 will ramp up and down to on the GPU and CPU. 
 

Also the S had a cut down GPU it’s still RDNA2

You don't, base and boost is a basic industry standard, that has existed in the PC world for years.

 

Stop defending Microsoft's architectural choice, it isn't defendable.  XBOX is worse for developers next gen and will take longer to develop for.  This is a fact.

[Lord Vile]

1 hour ago, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

You don't, base and boost is a basic industry standard, that has existed in the PC world for years.

 

Stop defending Microsoft's architectural choice, it isn't defendable.  XBOX is worse for developers next gen and will take longer to develop for.  This is a fact.

It's existed in PC for years where nothing is optimised for outside of Arch. I could cut my GPU frequency in half and the game would still run on PC, the devs have done no work in regards to boost clocks. They don't optimise for clocks on PC like they do on console.

 

Apart from it isn't harder. the XSX is designed to run at 4K60 or 120Hz at lower res. The S is designed for 1440p 60 and maybe high refresh on some less demanding games at 1080. The architecture is the same on both consoles the chip on the S is just cut down version of the X. For example take the X as a 2080 and the S as a 2060, they both used the same die SKU (TU-104) but one was significantly cut down. All devs have to do is drop performance targets for the S whereas they have to wrestle with the PS5 having erratic clocks.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

4 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

It's existed in PC for years where nothing is optimised for outside of Arch. I could cut my GPU frequency in half and the game would still run on PC, the devs have done no work in regards to boost clocks. They don't optimise for clocks on PC like they do on console.

 

Apart from it isn't harder. the XSX is designed to run at 4K60 or 120Hz at lower res. The S is designed for 1440p 60 and maybe high refresh on some less demanding games at 1080. The architecture is the same on both consoles the chip on the S is just cut down version of the X. For example take the X as a 2080 and the S as a 2060, they both used the same die SKU (TU-104) but one was significantly cut down. All devs have to do is drop performance targets for the S whereas they have to wrestle with the PS5 having erratic clocks.

I suggest you learn the game development process.  What you just said is factually incorrect.

[Lord Vile]

1 hour ago, TheFlyingSquirrel said:

I suggest you learn the game development process.  What you just said is factually incorrect.

Nice claims with no evidence or argument. Well done have a gold star.