WordPress founder claims Apple cut off updates to his completely free app because it wants 30 percent

[Shakymango]

Summary

WordPress founding developer Matt Mullenweg is accusing Apple of cutting off the ability to update that app — until or unless he adds in-app purchases so Apple (now a 2 trillion dollar company) can extract its 30 percent cut of the money.

 

Quotes

Quote

"Heads up on why @WordPressiOS updates have been absent... we were locked by App Store. To be able to ship updates and bug fixes again we had to commit to support in-app purchases for .com plans. "

 

My thoughts

Honestly , this is a very bad and desperate move by Apple. I understand that Apple and Epic are mega-corporations and Epic is as evil as Apple. But this Epic lawsuit can force Apple to change polices and help other small companies as well.  

 

Sources

 https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/21/21396316/apple-wordpress-in-app-purchase-tax-update-store

[Bombastinator]

That’s odd. I vaguely remember different rules for free apps.  Free means totally free as in beer though, which is where the fortnight thing becomes an issue.  A lot of banking apps for example are free, but they also kind of aren’t because they only are functional if you have an account with the bank.  That’s what Epic was doing until they changed stuff.  It’s technically free though it also apparently really isn’t. Does Wordpress have paid levels or something?  I suspect the devil is in the details on this one.  If you have an app in the Apple store that is free it doesn’t stop you from provide a paid service but that paid service has to exist outside the app.  I don’t remember much about how Wordpress works and no knowledge at all about how it is done lately.  It was a thing many years ago, but kind of went the way of vine before vine did. 

[RejZoR]

While I currently love iPhone and iOS, Apple seems to be trying desperately that we hate them. I actually stepped on the Apple's side with the Epic conflict because Epic is just full of shit and they are just trying to extort the more profitable conditions even though they agreed with Apple when signing up and then violated the terms. Don't feel sorry for them at all.

 

Wordpress on the other hand apparently had the same policy and Apple suddenly decided to screw them over. It wasn't even Wordpress who tried bypassing things. And that's just BS. I generally don't use Wordpress app to write big things, but I sometimes manage things for my blog through it and this is just stupid.

 

We can thank Epic for making Apple mor evigilant and strict at enforcing things. Now, instead of making things better, it's just everyone getting screwed over... Slow clap Epic, slow clap. Also, they won't win. You can be assure of that. Apple's device, Apple's OS, Apple's ecosystem/platform/AppStore. It's either take it or leave it. No one forces you to be there when you knowingly violate terms you signed for. Again, that's not the case with Wordpress from the looks of it.

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

While I currently love iPhone and iOS, Apple seems to be trying desperately that we hate them. I actually stepped on the Apple's side with the Epic conflict because Epic is just full of shit and they are just trying to extort the more profitable conditions even though they agreed with Apple when signing up and then violated the terms. Don't feel sorry for them at all.

 

Wordpress on the other hand apparently had the same policy and Apple suddenly decided to screw them over. It wasn't even Wordpress who tried bypassing things. And that's just BS. I generally don't use Wordpress app to write big things, but I sometimes manage things for my blog through it and this is just stupid.

 

We can thank Epic for making Apple mor evigilant and strict at enforcing things. Now, instead of making things better, it's just everyone getting screwed over... Slow clap Epic, slow clap. Also, they won't win. You can be assure of that. Apple's device, Apple's OS, Apple's ecosystem/platform/AppStore. It's either take it or leave it. No one forces you to be there when you knowingly violate terms you signed for. Again, that's not the case with Wordpress from the looks of it.

I don’t know if Wordpress is “good” vs evil. I had a lot of friends that used Wordpress a lot years ago and then they all stopped.  I don’t know why.  I suspect an overview of this one is insufficient. More data is likely to come out.  Apple wouldn’t have a thing about Wordpress if there wasn’t a reason.  I agree that Apple is not a white knight here.  I just don’t know how white Wordpress is either though at this point.  I’ve heard former users grumble about them more than they do Apple. 

[RejZoR]

@Bombastinator

The reason is probably because writing blogs is not "cool" anymore. It's all on Youtube or on social networks like Instagram or Facebook.

 

I'm more traditional and old fashioned. I like blog format more. Stupid likes and all that narcissistic "me me me" crap just doesn't excite me.

[givingtnt]

On this one, go Apple.
WordPress can't die sooner imo.

[RejZoR]

1 minute ago, givingtnt said:

On this one, go Apple.
WordPress can't die sooner imo.

Why again? Where has Wordpress hurt you? You can show us on the doll...

[Bombastinator]

9 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

@Bombastinator

The reason is probably because writing blogs is not "cool" anymore. It's all on Youtube or on social networks like Instagram or Facebook.

 

I'm more traditional and old fashioned. I like blog format more. Stupid likes and all that narcissistic "me me me" crap just doesn't excite me.

Wasn’t that.  They wrote blogs afterwards they just did it elsewhere.  I got all these notices “I’m moving from word press to (whatever) because (reasons)”.  I didn’t pay a lot of attention as I rarely read the blogs and didn’t care about the reasons.  

[givingtnt]

13 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Why again? Where has Wordpress hurt you? You can show us on the doll...

Let's see..

Uses PHP (though I guess that's personal preference).
Spotty performance (Very often websites are extremely slow to load anything).
Highly dependent on plugins that are left to rot after a year.
Countless bugs and inexplicable errors out of nowhere.
Filled to the brim with security issues and vulnerability (esp thanks to paid plugins left unchecked).
Terrible user experience with scattered information, features and often one "web page builder" or another interfering with something else and wrecking a page.
Any updates on a live site takes AGES to load, save or do anything with.
Bloated database even for simple landing pages.

Is the point I'm making clear ?

Most of these points mostly derive from people patching in on the pile of other garbage patches, more and more stuff to make a decade old blog engine into a "look at us, we're new and exciting" web development snowball of dirt.

Why use this train wreck when there's.. Node.JS and React.
Oh, I'm sorry. That would mean WP agencies would actually have to write a line of code..

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Why again? Where has Wordpress hurt you? You can show us on the doll...

He apparently has reasons.  They may be good ones or bad ones. I realize that’s more or less what you are saying, but it somehow came off to me as sarcastic so I though i’d try and make it more neutral.

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, givingtnt said:

Let's see..

Uses PHP (though I guess that's personal preference).
Spotty performance (Very often websites are extremely slow to load anything).
Highly dependent on plugins that are left to rot after a year.
Countless bugs and inexplicable errors out of nowhere.
Filled to the brim with security issues and vulnerability (esp thanks to paid plugins left unchecked).
Terrible user experience with scattered information, features and often one "web page builder" or another interfering with something else and wrecking a page.
Any updates on a live site takes AGES to load, save or do anything with.
Bloated database even for simple landing pages.

Is the point I'm making clear ?

These could be more or less summed up as “ the design and upkeep is crap” wouldn’t be a reason for Apple to make an ultimatum though. That would most likely be about money.   How do they produce revenue?  

[givingtnt]

3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

These could be more or less summed up as “ the design and upkeep is crap” wouldn’t be a reason for Apple to make an ultimatum though. That would most likely be about money.   How do they produce revenue?  

If you don't read what's been quoted, ofc you'd ask that question.

But here's the answer: Advert money and web hosting.
It doesn't make sense for Apple to reach any of that money however. since the App is really just for posting to your blog.

Apple wants them to implement the buying of those things in the app so that they can take a cut.

[Bombastinator]

16 minutes ago, givingtnt said:

If you don't read what's been quoted, ofc you'd ask that question.

But here's the answer: Advert money and web hosting.
It doesn't make sense for Apple to reach any of that money however. since the App is really just for posting to your blog.

Apple wants them to implement the buying of those things in the app so that they can take a cut.

It would depend on how that money is collected.  Advert money is I think I not counted though I could be wrong.  For a violation to happen they would have to be collecting money through the web site. There are free apps such as vpns and whatnot but to pay you have to go to an outside website.  If they aren’t doing that I could see how Apple might have an issue.  To speculate:

There might be a “we can’t do that because...” reply that is being streamlined out of the argument. 
 

what was quoted was that thing about the child sexual assault doll. What that quoted was a statement that you felt Wordpress dying would be a good thing.  Do you mean farther up the thread? 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Bombastinator

[poochyena]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

While I currently love iPhone and iOS, Apple seems to be trying desperately that we hate them.

but none of this is new. the only difference is a few big companies are complaining about apple's tactics now.

[Bombastinator]

There is a ton of negative press.  Especially here.  The most I’m getting is “gigantic Byzantine unfeeling corporation” which of course they are.  Definitely not good, but as corporations go, kind of par.  Several of the news pieces I’ve seen lately that are personal complaints by humans tend to be on behalf of smaller corporations, and have a tendency to leave important bits out in order to help their case.
there have been 3 I have noticed here:

 

1: the epic thing.  Not much to be said there that one is playing out in national news

 

 

2: the “food seller” one.  it was the fact that it was actually not a food seller but an app company that made me question a lot of this anti-Apple stuff.  It Didn’t excuse the apple behavior which seemed overly aggressive, but there is a weird wrinkle in apples early history and the amazing similarity of the app company’s  logo to one from apple’s early history which might explain if not excuse the interest. 
 

3: this one.  
#1 and #2 and the clear relation of 3 to 1 causes me to question if the whole story is being told here.   It might be, I don’t know. I don’t want to pre-judge. 

[GoodBytes]

This is not the first dev reporting this. When it hits the media, and goes viral, then Apple reverts, like in this case.

I think the problem is that Apple has no more growth. People are not switching from Android to iPhone, Mac sales aren't growing enough to really have a major positive impact on their finances. When you lack growth, you loose investors (if any, in the case of Apple, as they have so much money) and shareholders interest. To please them, they need to show  that they are making more money than last quarter or at worst year.

 

That is why they have:

• Increased the price of Macs and iPhones over the years.
• Made a budget version of the iPhone, to mass sale to iPhone user fans so that they dont' stick with their old phones.
• Focus on accessories sales, including removal of the power adapter to charge your latest iPhone (which introduced fast charging.. so if you want that feature, you can't use your existing power adapter, you need to buy the latest one).
• Refusal to make an exception to Epic and fighting to the end to keep the 30%.

I won't be surprised if Apple will increase their share from the Store from 30% to 35% or even 40% in the future.

[Kisai]

13 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

This is not the first dev reporting this. When it hits the media, and goes viral, then Apple reverts, like in this case.

I think the problem is that Apple has no more growth. People are not switching from Android to iPhone, Mac sales aren't growing enough to really have a major positive impact on their finances. When you lack growth, you loose investors (if any, in the case of Apple, as they have so much money) and shareholders interest. To please them, they need to show  that they are making more money than last quarter or at worst year.

 

That is why they have:

• Increased the price of Macs and iPhones over the years.
• Made a budget version of the iPhone, to mass sale to iPhone user fans so that they dont' stick with their old phones.
• Focus on accessories sales, including removal of the power adapter to charge your latest iPhone (which introduced fast charging.. so if you want that feature, you can't use your existing power adapter, you need to buy the latest one).
• Refusal to make an exception to Epic and fighting to the end to keep the 30%.

I won't be surprised if Apple will increase their share from the Store from 30% to 35% or even 40% in the future.

Nah the problem is almost certainly the Apple guidelines themselves being inconsistant or vauge enough on purpose so that they don't have to be clarified without someone taking them to court. Like when I worked at eBay, there was a lot more stuff on "internal" policy than there was on the customer-facing one. Basically unwritten rules, because (and have seen first-hand) people will readily tweak their listings to not violate the policy while still violating the intent of the policy, and then the policy gets tweaked yet again.

 

Like the thing with the Epic stuff is this, quite literately. Apple does not want Epic to be a freeloader, so it has no reason or excuse to give Epic a deal, especially since Apple is not only footing the bill for the bandwidth and other QA stuff needed for it to run on the iphone/ipad. Such is not the same thing with Netflix or Amazon which stuff like Amazon Prime or Signing up for Netflix might justify the customer acquisition commission but not really justify the on-going subscription commission since they aren't footing the bandwidth for Amazon Prime or Netflix 's streaming itself, and may have partnership agreements in place to work with the AppleTV service. If your entire purpose for omitting the IAP while having it available somewhere else is to dodge the app store fees, then that justified the fees in the first place.

 

I don't see apple moving the commission price for any reason without everyone (and I mean everyone that matters like Sony and Nintendo, not Epic which doesn't have the clout for) doing the same for their respective platforms.

 

The wordpress app is different in this regard, because the service itself is free, and the app is not a "sale" to a subscription. By putting the purchases to the website services in the app, that puts an additional burden on the wordpress service to synchronize with it, for what might be extremely low volume purchases (I can't imagine the wordpress.com site gets more than a few dozen purchases per year, and only some very large brands using it for one-off sites would pay for it, and wouldn't be using an app in the first place.) 

 

[Bombastinator]

28 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

This is not the first dev reporting this. When it hits the media, and goes viral, then Apple reverts, like in this case.

I think the problem is that Apple has no more growth. People are not switching from Android to iPhone, Mac sales aren't growing enough to really have a major positive impact on their finances. When you lack growth, you loose investors (if any, in the case of Apple, as they have so much money) and shareholders interest. To please them, they need to show  that they are making more money than last quarter or at worst year.

 

That is why they have:

• Increased the price of Macs and iPhones over the years.
• Made a budget version of the iPhone, to mass sale to iPhone user fans so that they dont' stick with their old phones.
• Focus on accessories sales, including removal of the power adapter to charge your latest iPhone (which introduced fast charging.. so if you want that feature, you can't use your existing power adapter, you need to buy the latest one).
• Refusal to make an exception to Epic and fighting to the end to keep the 30%.

I won't be surprised if Apple will increase their share from the Store from 30% to 35% or even 40% in the future.

Apple has been stagnant before and even shrank so small at one point that microsoft bailed them out just to avoid an ant-trust hassle.  Doing so was cheap at the time. I recall being in school and people selling Apple stock for a dollar a share to try to build up the company so it wouldn’t completely flounder.  They wound up making a ton of money selling the stock they bought to do it so microsoft came out well from it anyway. 
 

Different people in charge now of course. Still it might be worth looking at how they acted the last time they were in this position just for possible additional insight. 

[GoodBytes]

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Nah the problem is almost certainly the Apple guidelines themselves being inconsistant or vauge enough on purpose so that they don't have to be clarified without someone taking them to court. Like when I worked at eBay, there was a lot more stuff on "internal" policy than there was on the customer-facing one. Basically unwritten rules, because (and have seen first-hand) people will readily tweak their listings to not violate the policy while still violating the intent of the policy, and then the policy gets tweaked yet again.

True. But WordPress is open source, or the person that is evaluating apps doesn't know what open source is. 

 

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Like the thing with the Epic stuff is this, quite literately. Apple does not want Epic to be a freeloader, so it has no reason or excuse to give Epic a deal, especially since Apple is not only footing the bill for the bandwidth and other QA stuff needed for it to run on the iphone/ipad.

They don't use any bandwidth. the game runs on its own servers, not Apple. What you are buying is already in the game. There is nothing extra to downloads and install. And even if it were, the Store will only authorize downloads from someone who purchases the content (else it would be easy to by-pass the store and get anything you want). So, that DLC or micro-transaction needs to be processed by the Store to get it. In Epic case, assuming this is happening, they would need to use their own server. But again, everything is in the game already, you are paying to unlock things.

 

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Such is not the same thing with Netflix or Amazon which stuff like Amazon Prime or Signing up for Netflix might justify the customer acquisition commission but not really justify the on-going subscription commission since they aren't footing the bandwidth for Amazon Prime or Netflix 's streaming itself, and may have partnership agreements in place to work with the AppleTV service. If your entire purpose for omitting the IAP while having it available somewhere else is to dodge the app store fees, then that justified the fees in the first place.

Spotify didn't fit the above. As Apple has Apple Music, and doesn't care about Spotify service. But Netflix and Amazon Prime is required for Apple TV to even sale.

 

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

I don't see apple moving the commission price for any reason without everyone (and I mean everyone that matters like Sony and Nintendo, not Epic which doesn't have the clout for) doing the same for their respective platforms.

Well, Apple refusal of working with Epic, will impose laws that will change the entire industry. At least in the US only.

It may be limited to phones and tablets though, all depending on the judgement and if there is any law that gets set. Technically, Apple will probably win, as it is their own platform, which isn't a free market. That said, Epic possible win is getting the attention of the EU, and government officials having argument against Apple anti-trust. I mean Epic timing is not accidental.

 

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

The wordpress app is different in this regard, because the service itself is free, and the app is not a "sale" to a subscription. By putting the purchases to the website services in the app, that puts an additional burden on the wordpress service to synchronize with it, for what might be extremely low volume purchases (I can't imagine the wordpress.com site gets more than a few dozen purchases per year, and only some very large brands using it for one-off sites would pay for it, and wouldn't be using an app in the first place.) 

The service is free. WordPress is open source, and the app is free. They do sale .com, for those who want, but that is completely outside of the app.

Also, keep in mind that you also have Amazon app on Apple Store. You can buy things directly from the app, and Apple makes no money. Why would Amazon not have anything to pay to Apple, but Epic, who decides to use its own store system (like Amazon), not be authorized to do so?

[IAmAndre]

4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

actually stepped on the Apple's side with the Epic conflict because Epic is just full of shit and they are just trying to extort the more profitable conditions even though they agreed with Apple when signing up and then violated the terms. Don't feel sorry for them at all.

Well I always have a problem with that reasoning. Just because you don't like Epic in general doesn't mean you should step on Apple's side. Considering that Microsoft and Google have had issues in the past for similar non-competitive issues of this kind, I don't see why Apple should get away with it.

 

4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

We can thank Epic for making Apple mor evigilant and strict at enforcing things. Now, instead of making things better, it's just everyone getting screwed over... Slow clap Epic, slow clap.

It's actually a good thing that Epic lit the fire. If major companies get banned or decide to leave iOS as a whole, Apple will have no other choice than changing its policies to keep their customers.

[DrMacintosh]

A single question will determine my stance on this. 

1. Does WordPress have paid services

If the answer is yes, then Apple does have the ability to say that unless they let users sign up for their services in app, then you can't update your app anymore. If the answer is no, and the app is completely free in all instances, then Apple is in the wrong here. 

[Tech_Dreamer]

Looks like Apple is asking for the in-app purchases cut, seems fair according to terms & conditions both parties agreed. standard rules apply just as any app when you agree to terms & conditions to have your app set on the said platform.

 

what do they want? 100% of profit cut sidelining agreement terms & meanwhile using the excuse reason that apple trying to take 30% of profits from a "free app"? they're not asking for extra cut from a free app. they put in an in-app purchase feature that harvest 100% of transactions meanwhile acting free? sounded like an vague overblown excuse to me.

[hishnash]

So worth noting this has been resolved, what happened was the new update they pushed include the ability for users by buy premium wordpress account upgrade.  The developer was not aware of this since the app loads some content directly from wordpress.com and wordpress.com (inlining it in the app UI) had changed the page to let users buy.

The app dev has updated the app to not display that page and they are now in compliance with the rules. 

[Tech_Dreamer]

1 minute ago, hishnash said:

So worth noting this has been resolved, what happened was the new update they pushed include the ability for users by buy premium wordpress account upgrade.  The developer was not aware of this since the app loads some content directly from wordpress.com and wordpress.com (inlining it in the app UI) had changed the page to let users buy.

The app dev has updated the app to not display that page and they are now in compliance with the rules. 

UPDATE the news with this detail OP.

[Kisai]

15 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

True. But WordPress is open source, or the person that is evaluating apps doesn't know what open source is. 

 

Quote

They don't use any bandwidth. the game runs on its own servers, not Apple.

 

No, the store bandwidth, every time the game updates, it has to push an update. That's something that is super-frequent for games and some poorly-designed applications that use ads.

 

Quote

What you are buying is already in the game. There is nothing extra to downloads and install. And even if it were, the Store will only authorize downloads from someone who purchases the content (else it would be easy to by-pass the store and get anything you want). So, that DLC or micro-transaction needs to be processed by the Store to get it. In Epic case, assuming this is happening, they would need to use their own server. But again, everything is in the game already, you are paying to unlock things.

That wasn't the point. The point was that these updates are pushed to the game client via the app store, not directly to the game client, otherwise software developers would be able to side-step both the payment system and the security checks.

 

Quote

Spotify didn't fit the above. As Apple has Apple Music, and doesn't care about Spotify service. But Netflix and Amazon Prime is required for Apple TV to even sale.

If I ask Siri to play (song title) I have no idea what service it's going to use to play it, but I assume that if I haven't bought it it would try to stream it for free from something that does. I don't know if that's how it works because I don't like these "assistant"'s

 

Quote

Well, Apple refusal of working with Epic, will impose laws that will change the entire industry. At least in the US only.

It may be limited to phones and tablets though, all depending on the judgement and if there is any law that gets set. Technically, Apple will probably win, as it is their own platform, which isn't a free market. That said, Epic possible win is getting the attention of the EU, and government officials having argument against Apple anti-trust. I mean Epic timing is not accidental.

Apple is pretty much gauranteed to win versus Epic, because if Epic wins, then Epic will pull the same stunt with Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo.

 

Quote

The service is free. WordPress is open source, and the app is free. They do sale .com, for those who want, but that is completely outside of the app.

Also, keep in mind that you also have Amazon app on Apple Store. You can buy things directly from the app, and Apple makes no money. Why would Amazon not have anything to pay to Apple, but Epic, who decides to use its own store system (like Amazon), not be authorized to do so?

No, the wordpress software from wordpress.org is free. The wordpress.com is a commercial for-profit service based on the wordpress.org code.

 

The app is open source https://github.com/wordpress-mobile/WordPress-iOS and can be used with self-hosted wordpress sites using the code from wordpress.org

 

This is why in this specific case it doesn't really make any sense, as users downloading the app can't "use" the "wordpress.com" features.