Tesla Remove Software Features from Used Model S

[ARikozuM]

Just now, weeblord said:

See what I mean? They will make a profit because the OEM is not selling direct to the country, and that dealer is the only way to get a Tesla in Russia.

That's the free market speaking. If you aren't going to sell to a population that wants your product, you can't fault someone who will pay and sell to that market. 

[weeblord]

Just now, ARikozuM said:

If you aren't going to sell to a population that wants your product, you can't fault someone who will pay and sell to that market. 

Okay, fair enough

[TechyBen]

5 hours ago, Kilrah said:

So if the autopilot license is with the user and not the car that means you don't need to buy it again when you change your car to a newer one, right?

Would be fun to counter them with that in court.

What if I buy 100 Teslas, do I only need to pay once for the autopilot?

 

PS, disabling Autopilot because it's not valid/safe in a particular country is one thing. So is the story hubris/spin/fake/bias? IF that new user drove it back to (country supported/USA, though I think I see some in the UK too but no idea if they have Autopilot enabled) would it work again?

[pas008]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

It's stupid. It's not like you can transplant software to another Tesla. It's like OEM Windows on lets say laptops. It's tied to hardware and for as long as hardware is the same, it doesn't matter how many owners it changes. You can't install that key somewhere else. And when laptop dies, so does the Windows license with it.

agreed

its stupid

should be a law in place for license is tied to device/machine/etc

with owner of the said thing now has the license

 

but if they want to innovate better software then they offer them better updated new feature/etc software with the exception of security and safety

[RejZoR]

2 minutes ago, pas008 said:

agreed

its stupid

should be a law in place for license is tied to device/machine/etc

with owner of the said thing now has the license

 

but if they want to innovate better software then they offer them better updated new feature/etc software with the exception of security and safety

I's not like anything was stolen. Old owner doesn't have it anymore, new one does. Total sum of software on hardware is still 1.

[pas008]

3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

I's not like anything was stolen. Old owner doesn't have it anymore, new one does. Total sum of software on hardware is still 1.

i know itd be like ms sony or nintendo making you pay to use their console os because you acquired their console 2nd hand

 

 

[RejZoR]

3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

i know itd be like ms sony or nintendo making you pay to use their console os because you acquired their console 2nd hand

 

 

It's also why I don't own either of them. I only own old PS2. It's just there and it'll work 20 years later like it's nothing. These tied subscription services suck.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, porina said:

I've never given ownership much thought before. Most people I know own their cars because it is cheaper in the long term. These people will buy a used are typically over 3 years old, then run it until it becomes uneconomic to do so. Of course, there still needs to be new cars bought to feed the used car market.

People that buy used car, don't have intresting financial options available or have to pay in full. Usually these are people that have money.

Then you have people that don't have much money yet, but makes some, those can and usually opt to buy a new car as it usually have intresting financial options.

Then you have those that can't afford a car, but needs one or wants one (this is a huge problem in the US as public transport is extremally poor compared to many other countries beside select cities), they get leases, which involves paying about half the car price for 3-4 years (sometimes they opt for more, but you are well over the car warranty, and you reach a point where you'll do repairs and maintenance (beside the basics) on a car that you don't own.. but yes, some do), for like 0% rates.

Then you have those that buys the rust bucket cars, because they really can't afford anything else.

 

1 hour ago, porina said:

I think what you call a lease is something car dealers push here too, where an actual lease is more something businesses use.

While they are dealership leasing option that exists, usually it is the car manufcature here that offer them.

 

1 hour ago, porina said:

There's a low deposit (10%?) and monthly payments.

To my knowledge, they are no deposit in US and Canada (although, dealership are having fun charging a 500-700$ "documentation fee" which they sneak in. And push you those insurances that supposed to protect the car up to a certain amount against cosmetic damages that many gets, even thaught they don't cover anything in reality. Let alone other high markup services an options.. but that is a different story).

 

1 hour ago, porina said:

At the end of the contract, typically 3 years, you either pay off the balance and keep it, or hand it back and start all over again with a new car.

Same.. well... it is more like you return teh car, and goes "Porina... we evaluated the car and you have over 1500$ of repairs (in reality probably under 200$ from minor normal wear and tear which are normal, but the car manufcature and dealership doesn't)... but here me out, get another lease from us, and we will cover the cost", forcing you to lock you in a lease loop, as they know that most people that lease, don't have so much money put aside to cover anything. And of course this time, you can't negotaite teh rpice of the car, as they are doing such great "favor" by waving that 1500$ or whatever amount.

 

1 hour ago, porina said:

In this scenario, while you're legally responsible for having the car (including maintenance) you don't own the car itself. People tend to not think about the deposit once it is paid, and the monthly payments are low enough not to matter. I actually got my current car through this method, but instead of handing it back I decided to pay it off and keep it.

This is also a good tactic for cars that devaluate quickly, if you know the car won't break soon. As usually, in those cases, the payment at the end is less than what it would normally be (aka about half teh price of teh car initial price), and so you end up saving money, especially if you have a 0% interest rate on your lease. But this really depends on where you live, car brand availible and model, and lease rates.. and well lots of research,

 

1 hour ago, porina said:

In the days before this, more typically you take out a loan or similar finance plan to buy the car outright, and make payments on that. 

Yup

[Taf the Ghost]

Tesla really trying to implement the "Live Service" model for Cars. What's next, Micro-transactions to keep your brakes working?

 

But, Tesla should simply set a date after which cars will stop receiving updates without long-term support contracts. If you're going to act like a Software company, at least act like a Software company.

[GoodBytes]

57 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Source for that? As far as I can tell, you're wrong by a large margin.

 

Disclaimer, these stats are for the USA only:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/453122/share-of-new-vehicles-on-lease-usa/

From 2017 to 2019, the average Lease vs Buy for a new car is about 30%. Far less than half.

I stand corrected. In the US there is a drop in 2016 due to poor availible rates, despite increasing year over year at alarming rates until 2016.

Form US news articles, I see ~30-40% being quoted on the topic.

 

57 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Edit: On topic - I think the buyer should take Tesla to court about this. As far as I'm aware, the Autopilot fee is a one time fee. And the first sale doctrine should ensure that the owner is entitled to all features (non subscription based, of which Autopilot qualifies) present on the car before the sale took place.

No, I don't think so. Unless the seller can prove that it had that option, it is on the sellers fault.

[dalekphalm]

3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I stand corrected. In the US there is a drop in 2016 due to poor availible rates, despite increasing year over year at alarming rates until 2016.

Form US news articles, I see ~30-40% being quoted on the topic.

Right - so still far under "most".

3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

No, I don't think so. Unless the seller can prove that it had that option, it is on the sellers fault.

The seller shouldn't have much trouble proving that it had the option (or at least, it was advertised as having the option).

 

Point being, if the car was sold from Tesla with Autopilot, and the car was then resold, it should still have autopilot.

[porina]

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

People that buy used car, don't have intresting financial options available or have to pay in full. Usually these are people that have money.

I hadn't thought of it that way until now, and it is interesting how this works in different places.

 

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

While they are dealership leasing option that exists, usually it is the car manufcature here that offer them.

Again interesting. I might not be 100% on this, but here the dealer is its own legal entity, regardless if it is owned by the manufacturer or not. Your sales contract is with the dealer, not the manufacturer, even if the manufacturer is offering any deals at the time.

 

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

To my knowledge, they are no deposit in US and Canada (although, dealership are having fun charging a 500-700$ "documentation fee" which they sneak in. And push you those insurances that supposed to protect the car up to a certain amount against cosmetic damages that many gets, even thaught they don't cover anything in reality. Let alone other high markup services an options.. but that is a different story).

Ok, this is where things are not so different. They will try to pile on extras which add up really fast. Insurance to cover minor damage (except it doesn't), insurance to cover what you other insurance doesn't cover (except it doesn't), some interior and exterior protection coating (probably worse than snake oil) are some examples I can remember.

 

I should add, I've looked up the terms now. Leases as more commonly used by businesses are essentially a managed service. You never own the car. The leasing company is responsible for maintenance of the car, so that is all figured into a simple monthly cost that keeps the penny counters happy. If you stop paying, hand the car back and you're done. Think of it as a longer term rental.

 

Individuals get PCP, Personal Contract Purchase. It is a kinda loan hybrid. You don't own the car unless you pay it off completely, but you are otherwise treated like you are buying the car yourself. You can pick which options you want and if you want additional services. Routine servicing and wear and tear items/consumables are the buyer's responsibility. Providing you take reasonable care and stick to any mileage limits, you get a "minimum guaranteed future value" which is exactly the amount required to settle the outstanding value. When you sign up for it, they suggest that if you take care of the car there might be a bit extra value left over they refund to you. I had kept mine in excellent condition and I'm very low mileage, so even though I was going to buy it out, I asked what they would have valued it to see how much extra I might have managed. They admitted it was never going to be a thing and the number is basically a fixed % of whatever I paid for it. Had I gone for the extras, that would have increased it, but of course you paid extra in the first place...

 

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

This is also a good tactic for cars that devaluate quickly, if you know the car won't break soon. As usually, in those cases, the payment at the end is less than what it would normally be (aka about half teh price of teh car initial price), and so you end up saving money, especially if you have a 0% interest rate on your lease. But this really depends on where you live, car brand availible and model, and lease rates.. and well lots of research,

When I bought out my car, if I were to add up all the direct costs (initial deposit, monthly payments, final payment) it works out to be a bit more than if I had bought it outright at the start. The extra is comparable to if I got a loan to do so, so it doesn't change things in the long term. The difference is, I paid more of it later than earlier.

[AnonymousGuy]

The article doesn't actually say whether owner #1 actually paid for autopilot or not.  It's possible that Tesla shipped to owner #1 with autopilot active but not paid for, and then corrected it unrelated to the car being sold to owner #2.  Like when you sometimes get free cable for a while before they realize you didn't pay for it and cut it off (happened to me in college, 3 years of free cable and I moved out and still had free cable)

 

If owner #1 did pay for it, Tesla being scummy as fuck disabling it.

If owner #1 didn't pay for it, Tesla is in their right to disable it although if they sold it as "autopilot enabled" on accident, then owner #1 is owed compensation.

[dalekphalm]

3 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

The article doesn't actually say whether owner #1 actually paid for autopilot or not.  It's possible that Tesla shipped to owner #1 with autopilot active but not paid for, and then corrected it unrelated to the car being sold to owner #2.

I think it's clear this needs to be settled in court. If the original owner did indeed buy a car w/ Autopilot, then the second owner is in my mind entitled to it.

 

Court Discovery should be able to determine what was advertised, what the contracts said, etc.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

1 hour ago, bcredeur97 said:

That's against what they are trying to solve in a way since it creates more waste.

 

They are not trying to solve a waste problem, though. They are trying to solve a "not enough money in my bank account" problem.

[Karones]

Does this mean we will possibly see piracy for car software? We're getting closer and closer to downloading a car.

[Curious Pineapple]

On one hand it's not really any different to selling a car with optional extras/modifications, then the dealer removing them and selling it as a standard vehicle. On the other hand, it's like a private dealer buying a used car and the manufacturer coming along and swapping the alloy wheels for a set of standard steels.

 

I'd assume that the car has been sold to a dealer at an agreed price accounting for optional features that the car has and can be seen working, then those features have been disabled. People just won't want to buy a Tesla to sell it on unless it's a bare stock model with no options. The owner won't want to sell a car with 5 grand of extras for the value of a base model, and a dealer won't buy what will become a bare stock model for price of an top-spec car.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

People that buy used car, don't have intresting financial options available or have to pay in full. Usually these are people that have money.

Then you have people that don't have much money yet, but makes some, those can and usually opt to buy a new car as it usually have intresting financial options.

Then you have those that can't afford a car, but needs one or wants one (this is a huge problem in the US as public transport is extremally poor compared to many other countries beside select cities), they get leases, which involves paying about half the car price for 3-4 years (sometimes they opt for more, but you are well over the car warranty, and you reach a point where you'll do repairs and maintenance (beside the basics) on a car that you don't own.. but yes, some do), for like 0% rates.

Then you have those that buys the rust bucket cars, because they really can't afford anything else.

 

While they are dealership leasing option that exists, usually it is the car manufcature here that offer them.

 

To my knowledge, they are no deposit in US and Canada (although, dealership are having fun charging a 500-700$ "documentation fee" which they sneak in. And push you those insurances that supposed to protect the car up to a certain amount against cosmetic damages that many gets, even thaught they don't cover anything in reality. Let alone other high markup services an options.. but that is a different story).

 

Same.. well... it is more like you return teh car, and goes "Porina... we evaluated the car and you have over 1500$ of repairs (in reality probably under 200$ from minor normal wear and tear which are normal, but the car manufcature and dealership doesn't)... but here me out, get another lease from us, and we will cover the cost", forcing you to lock you in a lease loop, as they know that most people that lease, don't have so much money put aside to cover anything. And of course this time, you can't negotaite teh rpice of the car, as they are doing such great "favor" by waving that 1500$ or whatever amount.

 

This is also a good tactic for cars that devaluate quickly, if you know the car won't break soon. As usually, in those cases, the payment at the end is less than what it would normally be (aka about half teh price of teh car initial price), and so you end up saving money, especially if you have a 0% interest rate on your lease. But this really depends on where you live, car brand availible and model, and lease rates.. and well lots of research,

 

Yup

Tbh idk why anyone buys new tbh. You lose such a large amount of the cars value just by driving the car off the lot. You can get cars for significantly less just by buying a car that is a couple years old and not a ton of miles on them. I financed mine and I got it for 2/3 of its original price just because it was 3 years old with 35,000 miles on it. The funny thing is most people I know thought it was brand new because of how good of condition it was in. I mean I just don't see the point of spending 10k more just so it is brand new especial when you don't know all the things that are wrong with that years model when you buy new where as if you buy used they usually have a good idea of all the issues with that years model and have fixed them with recalls or you are aware of the issues. Also the failure curve for basically all products are inverse bell shaped meaning most cars are going to fail either fairly soon after being built or once they are quite old. This means you aren't going to find a dud used car as often as a dud new car if you buy slightly used cars. 

[Taf the Ghost]

53 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Tbh idk why anyone buys new tbh. You lose such a large amount of the cars value just by driving the car off the lot. You can get cars for significantly less just by buying a car that is a couple years old and not a ton of miles on them. I financed mine and I got it for 2/3 of its original price just because it was 3 years old with 35,000 miles on it. The funny thing is most people I know thought it was brand new because of how good of condition it was in. I mean I just don't see the point of spending 10k more just so it is brand new especial when you don't know all the things that are wrong with that years model when you buy new where as if you buy used they usually have a good idea of all the issues with that years model and have fixed them with recalls or you are aware of the issues. Also the failure curve for basically all products are inverse bell shaped meaning most cars are going to fail either fairly soon after being built or once they are quite old. This means you aren't going to find a dud used car as often as a dud new car if you buy slightly used cars. 

Because you're ascribing your own perspective to the buyers, and you're also ignoring the local economics. I know a few people that lease every 2-3 years because the local tax rules basically make it advantageous to lease in that type of setup. Depends a bit on Make & Model, but the economics aren't as rough as you might think.

 

That being said, it is an actual cost, but that's what people choose to do with their money. @LinusTech will drive a car years after it should probably be scraped, but a lot of people aren't like that. And, in the age 35-60 bracket, which is the actual buying market, they will trade Money for Utility, Time-Saving and Experience. The actual bigger cost sink is really insurance on a new car more than most of their depreciation. But, at the same time, almost no one just pays cash for a brand new car. A significant amount of all purchases are done in some sort of financing approach because the "Cost Value of Money" involved is just generally a bad idea to pay cash. Especially when Interest Rates are low.

 

That being said, the biggest value capture is normally Lease Return cars with bad resale values. You can get some really nice deals if you know what you're looking for.

[Belgarathian]

That would depend... If I bought a new Tesla would I have autopilot enabled as I'd already paid for it with my previous Tesla? 

 

You can't have it both ways!

[Brooksie359]

2 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Because you're ascribing your own perspective to the buyers, and you're also ignoring the local economics. I know a few people that lease every 2-3 years because the local tax rules basically make it advantageous to lease in that type of setup. Depends a bit on Make & Model, but the economics aren't as rough as you might think.

 

That being said, it is an actual cost, but that's what people choose to do with their money. @LinusTech will drive a car years after it should probably be scraped, but a lot of people aren't like that. And, in the age 35-60 bracket, which is the actual buying market, they will trade Money for Utility, Time-Saving and Experience. The actual bigger cost sink is really insurance on a new car more than most of their depreciation. But, at the same time, almost no one just pays cash for a brand new car. A significant amount of all purchases are done in some sort of financing approach because the "Cost Value of Money" involved is just generally a bad idea to pay cash. Especially when Interest Rates are low.

 

That being said, the biggest value capture is normally Lease Return cars with bad resale values. You can get some really nice deals if you know what you're looking for.

Buying new doesn't really provide you with utility time savings or experience. I mean it's not like a slightly used car goes from being reliable to not after it's driven off the lot. Also you can get a used car with more features for less money than a new car with bare minimum features. My car had alot of adds like blindspot monitoring, backup camera and other things that I wouldn't have got if I had paid more for the base new version. My dad has never bought new cars even when he can more than afford it as a very successful dentist simply because it's not a smart financial decision. Leasing is a bit different so I won't compare leasing to buying used as they are not really apples to apples. 

[vetali]

10 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

A growing number of people in US and Canada Lease cars, (with current trend it will reach a majority in a few years), instead of buying them, as they have no money. So it is already like that. This is also why your GM's Ford Chrysler and so on don't last. Cost a lot, bit really low leasing rates. Perfect car you lease for 3-4years and goes at the bin.

Banks are financing vehicles for 8+ years now. Car buyers only look at monthly payments now, so often times financing the car for 8 years + down payment/trade in is much cheaper monthly than a 3 year lease. We did 2 leases last year.

[RonnieOP]

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

People that buy used car, don't have intresting financial options available or have to pay in full. Usually these are people that have money.

Then you have people that don't have much money yet, but makes some, those can and usually opt to buy a new car as it usually have intresting financial options.

Then you have those that can't afford a car, but needs one or wants one (this is a huge problem in the US as public transport is extremally poor compared to many other countries beside select cities), they get leases, which involves paying about half the car price for 3-4 years (sometimes they opt for more, but you are well over the car warranty, and you reach a point where you'll do repairs and maintenance (beside the basics) on a car that you don't own.. but yes, some do), for like 0% rates.

Then you have those that buys the rust bucket cars, because they really can't afford anything else.

Im confused on what you mean by "interesting financial options".

 

You can finance,lease,buy, etc a used car the same way you can new ones.

 

If you buy a used car from a dealership you get the same options as a new one. If you buy one from someone off craigslist you can get a loan from a bank (basically the same as buying from the dealer).

 

And why would people with some money but not alot finance a new car? It would be much mich cheaper to buy or finance a used car. Which makes much more sense if your low on funds. Buying a new car is probably one of yhe worst financial decisions you can make since on most cars the value drops dramatically the second you drive it off the lot (not to mention interest rates which make it even more expensive).

 

Sure there is the warranty expect. But if you do some pretty basic research and find models that dont have many issues. 

 

Most cars last years and years with just basic repairs. Its not like after a few years your going to be replacing a cars engine or transmission.

 

In the US the used car market is pretty amazing (obv it depends on area though). Its really not hard to find a car for say $2k and drive it for 4-5 years. Ot might not have all the bells and whistles but more then drivable.

 

 

[RonnieOP]

32 minutes ago, vetali said:

Banks are financing vehicles for 8+ years now. Car buyers only look at monthly payments now, so often times financing the car for 8 years + down payment/trade in is much cheaper monthly than a 3 year lease. We did 2 leases last year.

One of my buddies leases. Never understood it tbh. I mean i know why he does it, because he just gets bored with cars and wants something new every two years or so (kinda like an old cell phone contract lol).

 

But financially for me personally it makes zero sense.

 

[vetali]

4 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

One of my buddies leases. Never understood it tbh. I mean i know why he does it, because he just gets bored with cars and wants something new every two years or so (kinda like an old cell phone contract lol).

 

But financially for me personally it makes zero sense.

 

Theres this lady that buys a new car from us every year. Not lease, but finances. Buys the same trim HR-V just in a different color so people know she got a new car.

 

I bought my first new car last year. Usually always bought used, but some kid kept coming in and asking about my car in the employee parking area. Eventually the sales manager gave me a good enough deal on my old car (value was plummeting on them quickly anyway) for a 19 Civic hatch sport touring. Figured I'd be bored of it already but I still enjoy it, even after getting to actually drive a Type R on some back roads.