AMD Navi 20 GPU Allegedly Supports Ray Tracing & Enhanced GCN Architecture - May Be Faster Than RTX 2080 Ti

[CarlBar]

1 minute ago, Mihle said:

I edited my post btw.

 

You haven't said any examples about him lying yet, you have just claimed he does. The CES thing doesn't mean he is lying. It can just mean someone in the link understood something wrong or worded it wrong, as they did show something about Zen 2 at CES.

 

All Adored said they would do at CES according to his source was:

 

A) talk about Ryzen. B)  Demoa  product.  C) he then made an educated guess would be the 16 core part.

 

Anything else he supposedly said about CES is made up by third parties.

[solarflare]

On 3/27/2019 at 7:53 PM, Humbug said:

From what I heard Navi20 will only come out next year in 2020, not this year. So 2080ti perfromance expectations do not suprise me at all since this will be a big high end GPU. Nvidia's next gen ampere will also come out in 2020 so AMD needs to compete with That, not the 2080ti.

 

What matters this year is the mainstream navi10 and we need to make push for mainstream level pc gaming to become more affordable again. Or else iF AMD does not compete then on the long-term Nvidia's current tactic of ridiculous price escalation every generation is gonna push lots of people away from PC gaming towards consoles and the cloud.

That last part has and is happening more and more all the time. 

I get old friends all the time who price out a system and then go.. umm wanna play on Xbox one ?then they run out and buy a XBO-X and stuff it on a 4k display and start gaming that night. 

With having Xim out there you can also KBD/Mouse game on either XBO or PS4 and it basically feels the same for aiming etc as PC does.

Even with the TV (average 50-55" 4k) - Xim Apex and a XBO-X your up and gaming for what? the price of a single Radeon 7 or 2080 , forget the rest of the pc's price. 

Its going to get harder and harder to talk people into gaming on a PC if the inflation doesn't stop.. 

As for AMD , I've been waiting for a while for them to come out with something impressive and priced competitively, But they seem to only want to match prices now and barely match performance leaving not much of a choice at all in the end. 

[cj09beira]

6 minutes ago, solarflare said:

That last part has and is happening more and more all the time. 

I get old friends all the time who price out a system and then go.. umm wanna play on Xbox one ?then they run out and buy a XBO-X and stuff it on a 4k display and start gaming that night. 

With having Xim out there you can also KBD/Mouse game on either XBO or PS4 and it basically feels the same for aiming etc as PC does.

Even with the TV (average 50-55" 4k) - Xim Apex and a XBO-X your up and gaming for what? the price of a single Radeon 7 or 2080 , forget the rest of the pc's price. 

Its going to get harder and harder to talk people into gaming on a PC if the inflation doesn't stop.. 

As for AMD , I've been waiting for a while for them to come out with something impressive and priced competitively, But they seem to only want to match prices now and barely match performance leaving not much of a choice at all in the end. 

thats not really a good example as the gpus on the consoles are about as fast as 590s, and game prices on consoles is so much higher, unless you play only vere few games it gets more expensive quite rapidly 

[solarflare]

2 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

thats not really a good example as the gpus on the consoles are about as fast as 590s, and game prices on consoles is so much higher, unless you play only vere few games it gets more expensive quite rapidly 

You can say that all day and people wont care , they will buy what they can and if you have ever played on a newer console with 4k you will realize it looks "pretty darn good" for what it is. 

 

Hey id rather PC game any day but at the end of the day those bells and whistles and extra fps are likely of no concern to the average gamer anymore.

Especially when to build a solid pc gaming machine new has at-least a 1000$ premium often 2000$ premium OVER the price of a console and a tv together.  

 

PC prices dont have to directly compete with console prices to sell. but they must stay within reason at-least right now its very unreasonable. 

[cj09beira]

6 minutes ago, solarflare said:

You can say that all day and people wont care , they will buy what they can and if you have ever played on a newer console with 4k you will realize it looks "pretty darn good" for what it is. 

 

Hey id rather PC game any day but at the end of the day those bells and whistles and extra fps are likely of no concern to the average gamer anymore.

Especially when to build a solid pc gaming machine new has at-least a 1000$ premium often 2000$ premium OVER the price of a console and a tv together.  

 

PC prices dont have to directly compete with console prices to sell. but they must stay within reason at-least right now its very unreasonable. 

those numbers are really far away from reality, for around 1000-1200 you can get a good pc while the monitor cost 300 and up, console (xbox one x) 500 bucks and tv 350 and up, so your premium is only 650, and thats without cutting any corners

[79wjd]

 

20 minutes ago, solarflare said:

Especially when to build a solid pc gaming machine new has at-least a 1000$ premium often 2000$ premium OVER the price of a console and a tv together.  

Yeah....ummm, absolutely not.

 

$680: 

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD - Ryzen 5 1600 3.2 GHz 6-Core Processor	$132.89 @ OutletPC
Motherboard	ASRock - AB350M Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard	$59.99 @ Newegg
Memory	Crucial - Ballistix Sport LT 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory	$74.69 @ Newegg
Storage	Seagate - Barracuda 1 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$39.50 @ Amazon
Video Card	Sapphire - Radeon RX 580 8 GB PULSE Video Card	$189.99 @ Newegg
Case	Fractal Design - Core 1000 USB 3.0 MicroATX Mid Tower Case	$35.80 @ Newegg
Power Supply	Corsair - CXM (2015) 450 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply	$34.98 @ Newegg
Operating System	Microsoft - Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit	$99.39 @ OutletPC
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total (before mail-in rebates)	$692.23
	Mail-in rebates	-$25.00
	Total	$667.23
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-03-29 12:24 EDT-0400

 

[THraShArD]

On 3/27/2019 at 5:15 PM, ouroesa said:

AMD and their sales team, never cease to disappoint. I am sure this has to be taken with a mountain of salt.

 

You'd have a mountain of cash if you bought AMD stock when it was under $2.50 a share  

[Doobeedoo]

It's very likely next flagship to support RT and VRS as well. While mid-range Navi is meant to grab that market the flagship Navi is what's more interesting really. Shrinking Vega to 7nm gave it a very good performance boost. Navi is a newer architecture and also on 7nm as well. So really I'd expect Navi flagship to have at least the same % performance increase over Radeon VII like how Radeon VII has over Vega 64

The mid-range one using GDDR6 makes sense while flagship HBM3 is very probable. Though it feels odd that these two may release so far from each other, the Radeon VII is out so I guess the aim is to have it being the flagship for this entire year. Though said limited units of them pointed more towards being short lived until Navi is ready. Would make more sens. They're repurposed Instinct cards and 16GB HBM2 memory ads to quite a cost for the card. For HBM3 aside from all the benefits it's said that price should be cheaper too.

 

Well interesting speculation and all.

[BiG StroOnZ]

3 hours ago, 79wjd said:

 

Yeah....ummm, absolutely not.

 

$680: 

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD - Ryzen 5 1600 3.2 GHz 6-Core Processor	$132.89 @ OutletPC
Motherboard	ASRock - AB350M Micro ATX AM4 Motherboard	$59.99 @ Newegg
Memory	Crucial - Ballistix Sport LT 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory	$74.69 @ Newegg
Storage	Seagate - Barracuda 1 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive	$39.50 @ Amazon
Video Card	Sapphire - Radeon RX 580 8 GB PULSE Video Card	$189.99 @ Newegg
Case	Fractal Design - Core 1000 USB 3.0 MicroATX Mid Tower Case	$35.80 @ Newegg
Power Supply	Corsair - CXM (2015) 450 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply	$34.98 @ Newegg
Operating System	Microsoft - Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit	$99.39 @ OutletPC
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total (before mail-in rebates)	$692.23
	Mail-in rebates	-$25.00
	Total	$667.23
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-03-29 12:24 EDT-0400

 

 

And realistically, you technically don't have to pay $100 for a Windows key/license:

 

https://www.lvlgo.com/windows-10-professional-retail-digital-key.html

[79wjd]

3 minutes ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

 

And realistically, you technically don't have to pay $100 for a Windows key/license:

 

https://www.lvlgo.com/windows-10-professional-retail-digital-key.html

I wouldn't go as far as to recommend shady grey market sources, but you also don't actually need to activate windows -- it works just fine in trial mode. But I'm any case, I left it in since it can also cover the costs of a mouse and keyboard (although most people would also probably have anyway).

[BiG StroOnZ]

6 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

I wouldn't go as far as to recommend shady grey market sources, but you also don't actually need to activate windows -- it works just fine in trial mode. But I'm any case, I left it in since it can also cover the costs of a mouse and keyboard (although most people would also probably have anyway).

I also wouldn't go as far as assuming the keys are automatically from "shady Grey market sources" either. There are plenty of reputable places, like the one I linked, where you can acquire legitimate CD Keys for Windows 10 and other software as well. However, as you mention you don't need to activate Windows at all to get it to work, this is completely accurate additionally. Although, a nice Keyboard + Mouse combo is around that price as well, assuming the buyer doesn't already have one.

[Blademaster91]

5 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

All Adored said they would do at CES according to his source was:

 

A) talk about Ryzen. B)  Demoa  product.  C) he then made an educated guess would be the 16 core part.

 

Anything else he supposedly said about CES is made up by third parties.

He always claims of ''having a inside source'' when most of the time its made up stuff to get clicks, when they claim its a "leak" and says they ''know someone at AMD'' that implies its factual information. He lied about the cpu chiplet and navi being shown off at CES, when all that was shown was a cpu with an extra bare pad and there wasn't much said about navi at all.

[Guest]

On 3/27/2019 at 7:05 PM, SlimyPython said:

This contains more salt than possible, Though Ray tracing would be cool

AMD proved that it was possible to get ray tracing on there  gpus

[justpoet]

10 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

He always claims of ''having a inside source'' when most of the time its made up stuff to get clicks, when they claim its a leak and says they ''know someone at AMD'' that implies its factual information. He lied about the cpu chiplet and navi being shown off at CES, when all that was shown was a cpu with an extra bare pad which could have been an APU and there wasn't much said about navi at all.

They did show the CPU chiplet at CES, and even in AMD's communications after the fact at their booth they mentioned the "bare pad" space.  They didn't, however, talk much about Navi other than to say it would come later.

 

It would be perfectly logical to think that somebody said "the new video card will be shown off at CES" and somebody assumed Navi, but it was Radeon VII.

 

I claim no knowledge inside any of these deals, nor try to defend adored, but everything seems reasonable and even Ms. AMD herself thanked him for following their product so closely, giving the rumors a little bit more legitimacy.  The products he mentioned for CPUs even made it to price lists and market suppliers, so…there's that too.

 

Will any of the Navi rumors be even partially true ("It will barely keep up with the 2080 and no ray tracing", "It will ray trace faster than the sun in 8k!")?  We'll just have to wait and find out.

[HomeBoi]

Just make intel sweat a little and we all will be better off, if only there could be a third or maby also a fourth actor that could help push both prices and tech forward

[79wjd]

47 minutes ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

I also wouldn't go as far as assuming the keys are automatically from "shady Grey market sources" either. There are plenty of reputable places, like the one I linked, where you can acquire legitimate CD Keys for Windows 10 and other software as well. However, as you mention you don't need to activate Windows at all to get it to work, this is completely accurate additionally. Although, a nice Keyboard + Mouse combo is around that price as well, assuming the buyer doesn't already have one.

The vast majority of legitimate (nearly all) grey market Windows keys aren't allowed to be resold and can technically be (and occasionally are) revoked at any point in time (and may not even work at the time of purchase -- hence why g2a had a buyer protection add on service to get insure that the key you purchased actually activated). The other large portion of Windows keys are from chargebackers, which are even more likely to be revoked while also end up hurting the party being chargedback as they often still end up covering transaction costs.

[dalekphalm]

56 minutes ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

I also wouldn't go as far as assuming the keys are automatically from "shady Grey market sources" either. There are plenty of reputable places, like the one I linked, where you can acquire legitimate CD Keys for Windows 10 and other software as well. However, as you mention you don't need to activate Windows at all to get it to work, this is completely accurate additionally. Although, a nice Keyboard + Mouse combo is around that price as well, assuming the buyer doesn't already have one.

What @79wjd said - yes, the site you linked is a Grey Market site.

 

Is it shady? By definition, yes (even if most keys work). Is it better than G2A? Maybe - but that's a low bar to beat.

 

The only way they are getting even somewhat legit keys that cheap is if they bought OEM keys and are reselling them (against the terms of sale), or they buy keys from "low economic regions" with lower average incomes and resell them (against terms of sale), or they're from MSDN (or old TechNet keys - btw, G2A is almost single handedly responsible for Microsoft shutting down the TechNet subscription).

 

That's best case. Worst case? Keys paid with stolen credit cards, etc.

4 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

The vast majority of legitimate (nearly all) grey market Windows keys aren't allowed to be resold and can technically be (and occasionally are) revoked at any point in time (and may not even work at the time of purchase -- hence why g2a had a buyer protection add on service to get insure that the key you purchased actually activated). The other large portion of Windows keys are from chargebackers, which are even more likely to be revoked while also end up hurting the party being chargedback as they often still end up covering transaction costs.

 

[BiG StroOnZ]

1 hour ago, 79wjd said:

The vast majority of legitimate (nearly all) grey market Windows keys aren't allowed to be resold and can technically be (and occasionally are) revoked at any point in time (and may not even work at the time of purchase -- hence why g2a had a buyer protection add on service to get insure that the key you purchased actually activated). The other large portion of Windows keys are from chargebackers, which are even more likely to be revoked while also end up hurting the party being chargedback as they often still end up covering transaction costs.

Of course there are risks when using these particular sites, however, I will say that risk vs. the reward is there; especially when you can get Win 10 Pro keys for $5-15. I also feel there are more success stories than there are stories of getting ripped off, or having keys revoked. People have been doing this on websites like eBay for years, where there's plenty of buyer protection or allowing you to use PayPal which frequently sides with the buyer.

 

I understand why people generally do not recommend it, especially for newcomers into PC Building. However, I have had tons of success spanning over a decade using such websites without any issues for software and games; as have many others. Everyone is entitled to do whatever they wish, but it at least needs to be presented as an option for people building on a budget - with obvious explanations on the pros and cons of using such services.

 

55 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

What @79wjd said - yes, the site you linked is a Grey Market site.

 

Is it shady? By definition, yes (even if most keys work). Is it better than G2A? Maybe - but that's a low bar to beat.

 

The only way they are getting even somewhat legit keys that cheap is if they bought OEM keys and are reselling them (against the terms of sale), or they buy keys from "low economic regions" with lower average incomes and resell them (against terms of sale), or they're from MSDN (or old TechNet keys - btw, G2A is almost single handedly responsible for Microsoft shutting down the TechNet subscription).

 

That's best case. Worst case? Keys paid with stolen credit cards, etc.

 

As I explained above, as always when saving money on things that are normally much more expensive. You obviously are rolling the dice. It's similar to people recommending you should go to the used market for Graphics Cards, to save a ton of money on a build (usually the most expensive part in a build) - knowing fully well that it is a possibility that the cards were mined on and could prematurely fail (especially Radeon cards).

 

I understand that generally these websites are frowned upon, not because of whether or not the keys will remain in tact, and not be revoked later on down the line. But instead the means in which the websites obtain the keys as being the shady part. While you claim the website I linked is a Grey Market site, they do have exceptional reviews: 95% 5 Star, 1% 4 Star, and 3% 1 Star (out of a 220 buyer review sample size).

 

Again, "most keys work," as you say; the shady part being how the keys were acquired and whether or not you're willing to turn your head if you plan on buying from such sites. Because at the end of the day, they are going to continue to function and sell keys regardless of whether you choose to use their services or not. If you don't want to support such businesses, for whatever reasons you feel necessary, then you are obviously entitled to that position. Nevertheless, I feel that it should at least be presented as a option for people who know not of places to get cheaper keys/licenses (like cdkeys.com, lvlgo.com, eBay, etc.) - with the risks also being presented as well.

[pas008]

1 hour ago, 79wjd said:

The vast majority of legitimate (nearly all) grey market Windows keys aren't allowed to be resold and can technically be (and occasionally are) revoked at any point in time (and may not even work at the time of purchase -- hence why g2a had a buyer protection add on service to get insure that the key you purchased actually activated). The other large portion of Windows keys are from chargebackers, which are even more likely to be revoked while also end up hurting the party being chargedback as they often still end up covering transaction costs.

 

54 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

What @79wjd said - yes, the site you linked is a Grey Market site.

 

Is it shady? By definition, yes (even if most keys work). Is it better than G2A? Maybe - but that's a low bar to beat.

 

The only way they are getting even somewhat legit keys that cheap is if they bought OEM keys and are reselling them (against the terms of sale), or they buy keys from "low economic regions" with lower average incomes and resell them (against terms of sale), or they're from MSDN (or old TechNet keys - btw, G2A is almost single handedly responsible for Microsoft shutting down the TechNet subscription).

 

That's best case. Worst case? Keys paid with stolen credit cards, etc.

 

 

17 minutes ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

Of course there are risks when using these particular sites, however, I will say that risk vs. the reward is there; especially when you can get Win 10 Pro keys for $5-15. I also feel there are more success stories than there are stories of getting ripped off, or having keys revoked. People have been doing this on websites like eBay for years, where there's plenty of buyer protection or allowing you to use PayPal which frequently sides with the buyer.

 

I understand why people generally do not recommend it, especially for newcomers into PC Building. However, I have had tons of success spanning over a decade using such websites without any issues for software and games; as have many others. Everyone is entitled to do whatever they wish, but it at least needs to be presented as an option for people building on a budget - with obvious explanations on the pros and cons of using such services.

 

As I explained above, as always when saving money on things that are normally much more expensive. You obviously are rolling the dice. It's similar to people recommending you should go to the used market for Graphics Cards, to save a ton of money on a build (usually the most expensive part in a build) - knowing fully well that it is a possibility that the cards were mined on and could prematurely fail (especially Radeon cards).

 

I understand that generally these websites are frowned upon, not because of whether or not the keys will remain in tact, and not be revoked later on down the line. But instead the means in which the websites obtain the keys as being the shady part. While you claim the website I linked is a Grey Market site, they do have exceptional reviews: 95% 5 Star, 1% 4 Star, and 3% 1 Star (out of a 220 buyer review sample size).

 

Again, "most keys work," as you say; the shady part being how the keys were acquired and whether or not you're willing to turn your head if you plan on buying from such sites. Because at the end of the day, they are going to continue to function and sell keys regardless of whether you choose to use their services. If you don't want to support such businesses, for whatever reasons you feel necessary, then you are obviously entitled to that position. Nevertheless, I feel that it should at least be presented as a option for people who know not of places to get cheaper keys/licenses (like cdkeys.com, lvlgo.com, eBay, etc.) - with the risks also being presented as well.

dont forget you can always shop around for legit windows keys in other countries where you can play the exchange rate game

think venezuela microsoft site was selling keys like couple bucks each like yr ago and this has happened many times throughout the yrs

sorry i'm a frequent slickdeals.net/shopping guy, just had to point that out

[dalekphalm]

26 minutes ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

Of course there are risks when using these particular sites, however, I will say that risk vs. the reward is there; especially when you can get Win 10 Pro keys for $5-15. I also feel there are more success stories than there are stories of getting ripped off, or having keys revoked. People have been doing this on websites like eBay for years, where there's plenty of buyer protection or allowing you to use PayPal which frequently sides with the buyer.

I don't disagree that there's very little risk - but it's still shady and definitely still grey market.

 

Just because it's cheap/easy doesn't mean you should do it.

 

In my personal opinion - if you live in a country with a low economic average income? Sure - buy from a Grey Market seller. But if you live in a fully industrialized country with an average/high income (Think most of Western Europe, the UK, Canada, AUS, USA, etc)? You should pay the full price for Windows.

 

Can't afford to? That's okay! Use an inactivated copy of Windows 10 (Microsoft allows this), or use Linux.

26 minutes ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

I understand why people generally do not recommend it, especially for newcomers into PC Building. However, I have had tons of success spanning over a decade using such websites without any issues for software and games; as have many others. Everyone is entitled to do whatever they wish, but it at least needs to be presented as an option for people building on a budget - with obvious explanations on the pros and cons of using such services.

Personally I don't recommend these sites because the more people that use them, the more it encourages sites to seek out these sketchy keys to begin with. I will never present a grey market site as an option. If you're on a budget, use inactivated Windows until you can afford a proper key.

26 minutes ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

As I explained above, as always when saving money on things that are normally much more expensive. You obviously are rolling the dice. It's similar to people recommending you should go to the used market for Graphics Cards, to save a ton of money on a build (usually the most expensive part in a build) - knowing fully well that it is a possibility that the cards were mined on and could prematurely fail (especially Radeon cards).

The difference between this and the used market for GPU's, is that the GPU's were acquired legitimately (in cases of actual stolen product, you can be held liable if you learn it was stolen and you still bought it, not to mention that's very rare indeed).

26 minutes ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

I understand that generally these websites are frowned upon, not because of whether or not the keys will remain in tact, and not be revoked later on down the line. But instead the means in which the websites obtain the keys as being the shady part. While you claim the website I linked is a Grey Market site, they do have exceptional reviews: 95% 5 Star, 1% 4 Star, and 3% 1 Star (out of a 220 buyer review sample size).

Again, just because the site works frequently, doesn't mean the keys weren't still acquired in a manner which I personally find unethical. Obviously no one but me has to follow my ethics, and it's up to each person to make up their own mind, but because of that, you'll never see me recommend such sites.

26 minutes ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

Again, "most keys work," as you say; the shady part being how the keys were acquired and whether or not you're willing to turn your head if you plan on buying from such sites. Because at the end of the day, they are going to continue to function and sell keys regardless of whether you choose to use their services or not. If you don't want to support such businesses, for whatever reasons you feel necessary, then you are obviously entitled to that position. Nevertheless, I feel that it should at least be presented as a option for people who know not of places to get cheaper keys/licenses (like cdkeys.com, lvlgo.com, eBay, etc.) - with the risks also being presented as well.

You're welcome to do so. Though if I see anyone recommending such sites in threads, I will recommend they don't use them.

[alex75871]

Has AMD graphics ever lived up to the hype?

[Stefan Payne]

6 minutes ago, alex75871 said:

Has AMD graphics ever lived up to the hype?

R300

[IceRAR]

Since when is AMD/Radeon interested in Ray Tracing ? Last time i hurd, all of them wore saying (including hard core fans) :

Quote

WHO NEEDS RT?? ITS  NOTHING BUT MAAAAARKEEETIIINNNG !!! 

 

[Stefan Payne]

24 minutes ago, IceRAR said:

Since when is AMD/Radeon interested in Ray Tracing?

Remember Killzone Shadow Fall? The Shooter Games on Playstation??

That one that mentioned Raytracing??
So its a rather old thing but nobody really talked about it much outside of technical presentations.

 

And here some more Infos:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-making-of-killzone-shadow-fall

 

Article is from 2013 So quite a bit old. ANd they talk about "Raytracing". That's been talked about for forever...

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, IceRAR said:

Since when is AMD/Radeon interested in Ray Tracing ? Last time i hurd, all of them wore saying (including hard core fans) :

 

It could be because Nvidia announced Ray Tracing support for Pascal GPU's with new drivers. Also with how fast games are supporting Ray Tracing compared to when DX12 was released,AMD might want to compete.