AMD Navi 20 GPU Allegedly Supports Ray Tracing & Enhanced GCN Architecture - May Be Faster Than RTX 2080 Ti

[cj09beira]

2 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

I feel like. Lot of people forget this. Its GCN and we know what limits it has, and its not as if those will disappear. 

 

 

Navi could just be Polaris with a node shrink and some ASICs to do raytracing (doubt) and videoencoding. It will have improvements, but in the end its GCN.

 

AMD wont take the high end lead before they move off GCN. They might take other leads, like Mobile etc, but not the high end. 

its not like those issues are inherent to the architecture, they are inherent of a 4 shader engine config too much compute not enough pixel throughput and other stuff, adding more of them would help quite a bit, or due what vega was going to do but failed, increase the performance of the current blocks by a factor of 2, and we did have a dev say that it was coming with navi

[cj09beira]

7 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

I think it might be more due to delays and the fact that AMD is currently focusing more on the pro side than the gamer side as usual.  AMD is focusing more on pushing out pro stuff right now with gamers as a secondary focus.  We know more about Vega 20, TR Gen 3, and Epyc Rome atm than we do Navi and Zen 2.  AMD focuses more on the pros and advertising there than Nvidia does.  Nvidia focus more on gamers than they do professionals.  But, Nvidia has a larger budget to focus on both.

Vega had lots of features focused on improving gaming performance, some ended up not working but the focus was there, and we no nothing of vega 20 or TR3 except the launch window and that they are high end, while for ryzen 3000 we know quite a bit, the same for navi 10 where there have been leaks with its performance target (rtx 2070) and price target (250-300), on the epyc side i think its fair to say they are focusing quite a bit on it, i think that is because ryzen is selling well on its merits now, while epyc has much more opportunity to grow

[cj09beira]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

The only official stuff on Zen 2 was what Lisa showed at CES and that one road map thing that was leaked from an investor meeting.  The pricing things are shady at best.  A retailer leak isn't exactly that credible as prices do change before launches.  As for the performance target, what exactly is the source on that?

most of what i talked about was leaked by adoredtv

[RejZoR]

Lol, people still going with the GCN this, GCN that arguments, like the name itself tells or dictates anything. GCN specifics do not exist. There is no "standard" that dictates how GCN should look like. The fact they've been using same arrangement of on-die modules just tells they were doing it on the cheap with what they have. They can call Navi's design as GCN 6 or whatever version it is now and it would behave nothing like "GCN" from before.

[cj09beira]

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Ya, Adored isn't that credible.  He makes claims he has all the sources from AMD then asks you to wait for the proof, but the reason he asks you to wait is to forget that he's just making shit up to hype things up.  I've watched his videos before, and it's pretty much Shittech level hyping and rumor bs.  It's nothing official.  I went through the sources even further and the sites were saying "could" not "would".  That means they're speculating about how well it "could" perform.  That's not exactly an official target that's just hypetrain express over rumors.  Until AMD actually shows it off, or an actual credible reveal/leak happens it's not exactly credible information.  Not saying it couldn't happen, but there's really no credible info atm on the matter.  That's on AMD if anything.

most of his sources go direct to him, so its not like you can go track them, now about being credible, its a rumor for a reason, most of the time we wont get anything resembling proof, because people would be fired if that type of info was leaked. (its like you asking your grug dealer if its FDA approved)

he is not on the same level as redgamingtech, they mostly compile what is around and talk about it daily, while adored mostly has its own leaks, and he has been quite accurate in the past

[AlTech]

10 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

True, the one I was thinking about was the 10, the 20 was the higher end.

 

But you are making very good point:

Why are we talking about NAVI 20 now??

Its soposed to be later, much later...

 

What happened to Navi 10?? Was Navi 20 closer than we thought and they moved 20 forward??
Was Navi 10 scrapped because Navi 20 was so close??

Is Navi 10 still the one to be released this year and Navi 20 next year?

 

Adored said in a video about Vega 20 that one of his reliable sources told him that the first batch of Navi chips produced in late 2018 had a crtical design flaw and so had to be fixed and then re-sent back to the fab and that Vega 20 was released as a last resort because they then knew that the successor to Vega 20 would not be released for almost a year or more.

 

Navi 10 was rumoured to launch in April but that was before the flaws with the design and the chips. In the video I think Adored said that he doesn't think it'll launch before May or June.

[mikegray]

Not sure whether all THAT much salt is necessary.

 

I don't find it all THAT unlikely that AMD will manage to release a card that equals - or even edges out - the best CURRENT NVIDIA card. But I'm guessing that said card will arrive sometime in 2020 - and that by the time it arrives NVIDIA will have released something significantly better.

 

In particular, I can't imagine that NVIDIA isn't trying very, very hard to release something better than the 2080 Ti. While it is the fastest thing out there, it just isn't a compelling buy - certainly nothing about it has tempted me to sell my 1080 Ti . However, assuming they DO release something that offers (a) a significant jump in performance and (b) makes ray tracing actually reasonable - that card will have to offer a pretty impressive jump on the 2080 Ti - and chances are, it would make AMD's "2080 Ti-Beater" look a anaemic.

[MeatFeastMan]

Everyone saying that navi 20 won't come close or even beat the 2080ti i need to look at the facts. Radeon VII matches the 2080ti and 2080 and that is basically just vega put on 7nm.  There is nothing special about that card other than more vram.

 

Navi is built specifically for 7nm, it is built specifically for gaming. They are not going to release navi 20 if it doesn't beat the Radeon VII, that would just make no sense whatsoever.

 

If small navi matches a 1080, then that is 30% away from the Radeon VII. Vega had two cards in it, Polaris had 3. Vega had a 1070 and 1080 level card. If we consider that the 580 matched a 1060, and vega 64 was 50% quicker...

 

That suggests that if Navi 10 matches a 2070, then Navi 20 would fall about 10% short of the 2080ti. But then you've got to account for that Vega was more of a compute card, and that Navi is SPECIFICALLY built for gaming (It is focused on the consoles). With that in mind, you'd suspect that the extra 10% or so that is missing will be made up.

 

I don't think it is out of the question that high-end Navi will beat the 2080ti at all. Navi will have much more backing behind it than Vega did. Remember Vega was being built at a time when Ryzen wasn't released and AMD didn't have a war chest to spend. With the success of Ryzen, you'd expect AMD to go all out on the gpu side now. Navi has the kitchen sink behind it.

[cj09beira]

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Well, the only official thing stated was that the Radeon VII was part of the high end.  Lisa didn't state anything else, so it's all speculation from there.  Also no, it's a repurposed Instinct card, not a Vega card.
 

its a repurposed in the same way that the 290x was repurposed, its still a vega card though, with extra features that mostly help with compute but still its vega, 

in my eyes navi 20 and to a less extent navi 10 will depend on how much they can increase triangle and pixel throughput 

[GoldenLag]

53 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

My source is an engineer at AMD.  Therefore, I'm credible."

Havent heard Jim say that. Ive heard him say that the leaker has previously been credible.

 

He also says when info is contradictory from his sources. Its not uncommon for him to check with Redgamingtech to see if their sources say something similar.

53 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

He's also been wrong a lot, and he gets very angry when people call him out on it from what I've seen.

In the end he is a leaker. He doesnt get perticularly angry when people call out when info is shown to be wrong. He does get annoyed for people calling him out after new leaks come out. Ik the end its all leaks. 

 

He also doesnt like to get called a fanboy. Like he really doesnt like to be called a fanboy, especially when that id used to discredit him. Because he has shown to critique most companies, including AMD

 

But in the end, take everything with a pile of salt

[porina]

A large problem of the rumour mills is that most places are repeating things said elsewhere. It's an echo chamber with little to no substance at source. Weak minded people start to believe as many places are saying similar things. Based even on public info from AMD it isn't that difficult to guess things in the region of what's rumoured, although there's a ton of hype that needs to be cut through also.

[cj09beira]

15 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Pretty sure I had in one of his Zen 2 videos, or at least him stating the person was from AMD.  Directly leaking info like that to him would be illegal. Also, he kind is a fanboy. 
 

Where's the AMD version?

Fanboy fueling clickbait!.  Not saying that one Zen 2 didn't display this at CES, but fanboy fueling clickbait is still present.

Also, he gets salty over more than just being called a fanboy.

It's not like the person he called out made the review biased.  It seems more like Jim got salty that the outlet got 4 drives for doing a sponsored review.  It didn't change the reviewer's opinion to be biased.

He also got banned for Reddit for this sorta stuff.

the amd version?, have you seen amd doing those kinds of anti consumer pratices? and there are a bunch of videos of him criticizing amd, in what they deserve criticism.

The same outlet that made what amounts to a publicity paper for intel (which involves being payed for it), is also doing the "review",then also having access to 2-4 times as much review products as other much larger review sites, thats at the very least unethical.

Now they are intel employees.

and he did not get banned from reddit, he deleted his account because he noticed that he was giving too much atention to hate and trolls, which is a problem many youtubers/twitch streamers etc seem to have

[GoldenLag]

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

He also got banned for Reddit for this sorta stuff

Banned? He deleted his account because he could get bit defefensive and over the top.  Edit: thats what ive heard, he might have gotten banned, but i havent heard of that

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

Fanboy fueling clickbait!.  Not saying that one Zen 2 didn't display this at CES, but fanboy fueling clickbait is still present.

Yup, cant disagree he is good at creating clickbait worthy titles. 

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

Where's the AMD version?

I dont have internet cuz im stuck in traffic, im running on edge. But i believe he did a video on why their GPU division failed and the terrible marketing and decisions they made to where they are today. At least i remember such a video

 

He also brought up possibly why Zen 2 might just be bad and similar to the old early polaris leaks and presentation. 

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

Pretty sure I had in one of his Zen 2 videos, or at least him stating the person was from AMD. 

I believe he mentioned this, but at the same time he had said that the leaker had leaks come true before, which is why he trusts him. The trustworthuness wasnt because he worked for AMD.

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

It's not like the person he called out made the review biased.  It seems more like Jim got salty that the outlet got 4 drives for doing a sponsored review.  It didn't change the reviewer's opinion to be biased.

He does get a bit salty when he discovers things he thinks might be malpractise. Also when he got review units, he said he didnt like doing reviews. It took a lot of time, he isnt experienced, and it took time from other projects. 

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

Also, he kind is a fanboy. 

Yeah, we can tell he preffers AMD over intel and Nvidia, but it think its due to what intel and Nvidia have done in the past. But he says he likes technoligy and currently, Zen is the hot news, and it is the thing he got known for doing. 

[Mihle]

2 hours ago, cj09beira said:

most of his sources go direct to him, so its not like you can go track them, now about being credible, its a rumor for a reason, most of the time we wont get anything resembling proof, because people would be fired if that type of info was leaked. (its like you asking your grug dealer if its FDA approved)

he is not on the same level as redgamingtech, they mostly compile what is around and talk about it daily, while adored mostly has its own leaks, and he has been quite accurate in the past

His leaks on Zen before has usually been quite a bit more accurate than GPU leaks tho. From what I remember.

[Mihle]

From what I have seen Adored leaks have been quite a bit more right than redgaming tech or whatever it's called.

[GoldenLag]

18 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

His videos attract fanboys of AMD.  

That is very true. He has been quite positive about AMD. Though he has gotten bashing from AMD fans, but tbf fans are quite irrasional. 

20 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Pretty sure he also stated he has a bias, not just preference, for AMD

I can remember hearing that though il unsure. 

21 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Pretty sure he said that, could be wrong, about the leaker who gave him the information over the Ryzen 3000/Zen 2 and how it would be announced at CES.  He was completely wrong about that.  All we got was that one sample Lisa showed on stage.

That is true. We did get to see Zen 2, but nothing else. Didnt help that a whole bunch of people missinterpreted it to be a launch. And when CES was around the corner, his leak was pretty old.

 

26 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

nothing about possible unethical things AMD has done.

He has done on stuff AMD has done wrong. He might be saving the unethicals to when AMD is more popular to get more views. Idk, hopefully he makes something, his videos are rather interesting

[Mihle]

13 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

He was completely wrong about the CES thing, and a lot about CES which he claimed were going to be accurate from what I remember.  It's more of a hit/miss thing when it comes to Zen and seems based more off speculation than an actual credible source.

I actually haven't heard of the other guy until this thread.

Date together with price is the two things that is most likely to be wrong. Clock speed after that. Even if for example price changes before launch, the leak itself might not be wrong, it might just have been the goal internally before it was actually set, but got changed later. Same with clock speed, but somewhat less likely to be different.

 

The way we can know of the leak was actually correct is not if it ends up being exactly like the leak (well, depend how close to the launch the leak was from), but if it's close or not.

 

CES was from his source, not him. And we can't know if the source just made it up or if it heard it some place but it was wrong/heard wrong.

 

A leak being totally wrong on one of many points doesn't mean the rest of it is. Sometimes a leaker/source can have real information but add something on top to fill it out, or as I said, just be wrong/heard wrong from someone.

 

We can only wait and see, that's the only way we can see how true or false it is. Always remember salt.

[Guest]

well the only thing that would to be of importance to me is... would i need ray tracing and other features when playing total war? should i wait another year.. maybe hold the gpu purchase untill atleast intels shows their face? 

[Mihle]

56 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

 

I believe he mentioned this, but at the same time he had said that the leaker had leaks come true before, which is why he trusts him. The trustworthuness wasnt because he worked for AMD.

 

I remember he saying someone close to AMD and not worked for AMD, but I might remember wrong, and I won't go back and check right now so....

 

42 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

But, if they did work for AMD this would be a criminal act that could be investigated.  That's why I have my doubts about the validity of his claim there.  However, his claims with no evidence doesn't mean they work for AMD.  Being right about a leak doesn't mean anything.  Pretty sure he said that, could be wrong, about the leaker who gave him the information over the Ryzen 3000/Zen 2 and how it would be announced at CES.  He was completely wrong about that.  All we got was that one sample Lisa showed on stage.

Well, I have heard companies won't send him products, even AMD ones, due to his narrative.  The source for that is in one of the last pages a bit above this on pcper thread.

Pretty sure he also stated he has a bias, not just preference, for AMD.  To be fair to Jim, I am basing that unfairly on something from Reddit.  However, he seems to enjoy bashing and making clickbait videos on Intel/Nvidia while mostly praising AMD like it's this company sent from Valhalla.  I think it partly also has to do with who his audience is.  His videos attract fanboys of AMD.  So, he's also profiting off that narrative.  

Who knows, maybe AMD itself don't care? How can we know? I think adored said close to AMD and not in AMD itself, but I might remember wrong.

 

Adored have talked lots of shit against Vega in the past, just shows you haven't seen all of his stuff. 

Apart from bad products or bad spending of money/priorities, I dont think AMD has that much that can be shit on. (The bulldozer thing ofc, but that goes under bad product)

[Mihle]

23 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I pinged you on discord as I believe I found the video you mentioned.  Youtube just didn't wanna bring it up when I basically searched for that kinda thing originally.  It kept pushing Intel/Nvidia hate vids by him at me.

His shitting/criticising at Intel and Nvidia videos is more popular and therefore most likely is prioritized by YouTube probably.

[GoldenLag]

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

I pinged you on discord as I believe I found the video you mentioned.  Youtube just didn't wanna bring it up when I basically searched for that kinda thing originally.  It kept pushing Intel/Nvidia hate vids by him at me.

Didnt get any ping on discord. 

 

Though its bot super surprising its harder to find, it probably wasnt one of his more popular videos. Its no lie AMD fans gather around him. 

[GoldenLag]

6 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

 

That would be the one yes. 

[CarlBar]

10 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

According to the road map, Navi is competing against Turing this year.  Whatever they call the 7nm+ next year will compete against that.  That's all the official information there is.  It's not confirmed that 7nm+ is the high end of Navi.  That was an assumption by the always inaccurate Shittech.

 

It isn;t confirmed that big Navi will be on 7nm+, but they'd be stupid not to put it on that process since we know they'll be shipping 7nm+ Zen3 the same year from prior AMD official info. Also who or what is shitech?

 

9 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

I feel like. Lot of people forget this. Its GCN and we know what limits it has, and its not as if those will disappear. 

 

 

Navi could just be Polaris with a node shrink and some ASICs to do raytracing (doubt) and videoencoding. It will have improvements, but in the end its GCN.

 

AMD wont take the high end lead before they move off GCN. They might take other leads, like Mobile etc, but not the high end. 

 

8 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

You know how old GCN is right?

 

They could have fixed one section at the time. 

 

Old GCN cards are great due to drivers and the architecture holding its own quite well. But these cards are old, and AMD hasnt fixed it. Instead they treated the symptoms with HBM. Which flopped because HBM didnt get produced enough to drop in price

 

I feel like someone has never looked into GCN at all. A simple read up will show they've made enormous changes to the architecture over it's lifetime.

 

5 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

I'm supposed to believe an engineer at AMD is directly leaking information to AdoredTV?  He's claimed shit like that before.  That would be investigated rather quickly, and the person could face charges as that's technically illegal.  It's more likely he surfs the net for rumors by other uncredible sources and makes speculations off that.  That doesn't mean he's completely accurate and reliable, or that his source is directly from AMD.  I could look back at records of when AMD does something then state, "Oh, hey.  They released this on this date a few times.  My source is an engineer at AMD.  Therefore, I'm credible."  Getting lucky on some forms of speculation doesn't mean you have a direct source either.  He's also been wrong a lot, and he gets very angry when people call him out on it from what I've seen.

 

2 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

He was completely wrong about the CES thing, and a lot about CES which he claimed were going to be accurate from what I remember.  It's more of a hit/miss thing when it comes to Zen and seems based more off speculation than an actual credible source.

I actually haven't heard of the other guy until this thread.

 

The only thing he got wrong about CES was the part they demoed, and that part of what he said about CES was speculation based on what he knew. In fact all he said about CES vis a vis Zen 2 was: A) they would talk about Ryzen 3000 at CES. B) They would Demo a part. He believed it would bethe 16 core part but had no confirmation one way or the other.

 

I strongly advise you to never take anything your hear adored has supposedly said seriously without checking his actual video on it as his most rabid fans and haters, acidentlly or not like to misinterpret or exaggerate what he said. Thats how the above two point morphed into: "Adored/tv says they will launch Ryzen 3000 at CES and demo the entire product stack and their absolutely, definitely, 100% will be a 16 core part".

 

2 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

Well, he was treating it like the guy was pretty much always right and trustworthy.  Personally, I don't take leakers as credible as it's usually excessive hype that people treat as complete fact.  I'd prefer getting official information.  The problem is that AMD is being directly vague and secretive.    If someone there were to leak any factual information without direct consent from someone like Lisa they could be facing jail time plus fines.  It's not like not naming them will protect them as an investigation would occur, and those usually end with the person being found and prosecuted.  I also think people didn't realize how a keynote works.  It was kinda obvious that AMD wasn't going to go over Zen 2 much or even something GPU related.  Keynote have time restrictions, and a large company like AMD would have a lot to go over.  GDC is sometimes where developers get updates on the matter, but events like Computex, E3, and others usually are where things like this are shown off more.  

 

Erm not naming them will in fact protect them unless they leak information that was only known to one person. And Adored has stated he's not revealed some info in the past to keep his source secret. An investigation can't show who has leaked somthing if it can't get access to anything incriminating. As long as they did the communication via private at home channels AMD has no access to such information and no probable cause to get a warrant with.

 

This kind of thing goes on reguarly around the world with news outlets of all shapes and sizes about all kinds of topics.

[GoldenLag]

2 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

I feel like someone has never looked into GCN at all. A simple read up will show they've made enormous changes to the architecture over it's lifetime.

ye, it has had changes. its not like they havent done anything, but it still has its scaling issues. and its continued to have those. 

[CarlBar]

4 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

ye, it has had changes. its not like they havent done anything, but it still has its scaling issues. and its continued to have those. 

 

The point is if they've made major changes in the past why can't they do that again?