[OLD] PSU Tier List 3.0 (Legacy)

[MadmanRB]

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yeah and it was decent when it came out - 11 Years ago!

It was one of the better units back in 2008 and 9 and got a ton of recommendations.

Not so much today!

 

By todays standard its a low end System Interator unit that is in performance comparable to the Master Watt Lite or other lowest end things...

 

So what? What does that tell you?
You were lucky so far.

 

Should you continue to use the PSU? No, not really...

well again there was no PSU tier list and I wasnt aware of any pro reviews of the unit at the time.

And no I dont use the unit anymore, while i am sure its still got life in it I would not put it in a new machine just in case.

But that is more of a age concern, capacitors even the best ones can blow over a long period of time.

[Ankerson]

3 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yeah and it was decent when it came out - 11 Years ago!

It was one of the better units back in 2008 and 9 and got a ton of recommendations.

Not so much today!

 

By todays standard its a low end System Interator unit that is in performance comparable to the Master Watt Lite or other lowest end things...

 

So what? What does that tell you?
You were lucky so far.

 

Should you continue to use the PSU? No, not really...

 

And it's currently at least 2 years past it's warranty.

 

Should have been replaced 2 years ago.

[MadmanRB]

Just now, Ankerson said:

 

And it's currently at least 2 years past it's warranty.

 

Should have been replaced 2 years ago.

I did replace it actually, toward the end of last year.

I got the unit in october of 2010 thus the age discrepancy.

5 years on the old build, roughly 2/3 years on the second build.

So made good use of it at least

[Stefan Payne]

2 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

well again there was no PSU tier list and I wasnt aware of any pro reviews of the unit at the time.

And no I dont use the unit anymore, while i am sure its still got life in it I would not put it in a new machine just in case.

But that is more of a age concern, capacitors even the best ones can blow over a long period of time.

There was no real PSU Testing at the time!
Or it was very hard to get any Infos on anything PSU Related, so people had to take guesses wich PSU are good and wich aren't.

JonnyGURU was one of the first, Hardwarescrets started a bit later.

 

 

And there were even less people knowledgable about PSU at the time - at least I can't remember anyone.

Today is completely different...

 

So your comparisation is not a good one for various reasons...

1 minute ago, Ankerson said:

And it's currently at least 2 years past it's warranty.

Should have been replaced 2 years ago.

Back in the day it was 3 Years, maybe 5 Years...

[Ankerson]

26 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

Or shipping damage. 

 

Seriously....  Every PSU on the market is put into a burn in chamber for 1 to 2 hours before it's put into a box.  So there should be no such thing as "DOA".  Yet it happens.  That means something happened between that burn in chamber and the customer. 

 

 

You know, I actually did something stupid once myself, don't actually know why it happened either.

 

I plugged in the EPS 4 pin wrong once...… They are keyed, but I wasn't looking and it actually plugged in the wrong way.

 

Nothing happened, but I noticed it was in wrong because it didn't start.

 

Strange. 

[MadmanRB]

1 minute ago, Stefan Payne said:

There was no real PSU Testing at the time!
Or it was very hard to get any Infos on anything PSU Related, so people had to take guesses wich PSU are good and wich aren't.

JonnyGURU was one of the first, Hardwarescrets started a bit later.

 

 

And there were even less people knowledgable about PSU at the time - at least I can't remember anyone.

Today is completely different...

 

So your comparisation is not a good one for various reasons...

Back in the day it was 3 Years, maybe 5 Years...

Cooler master actually had a 5 year warranty on my unit.

So... it lived its warranty and then some.

Pretty good all things considered.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ankerson said:

 

It would take a lot to damage a PSU in shipping, especially the high end ones as they are packed extremely well.

 

Like a tank running over it.

You completely underestimate the incompetence of UPS, Fedex, etc. and the warehouse workers at Amazon, Newegg, etc. that are throwing these things around.

 

Damage doesn't have to occur by "crushed box".  G forces alone can knock things loose if the box is dropped or thrown from a considerable distance.

[Ankerson]

8 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

You completely underestimate the incompetence of UPS, Fedex, etc. and the warehouse workers at Amazon, Newegg, etc. that are throwing these things around.

 

Damage doesn't have to occur by "crushed box".  G forces alone can knock things loose if the box is dropped or thrown from a considerable distance.

 

Jonny, you are most likely correct here.

 

I had a KB delivered in the original box once, they just stuck the label on the box and shipped it... 

 

$150 KB, and like 10 or more keys were loose in the box when I got it. 

 

Blew my mind when it got here, I couldn't believe it.... Yeah I called, you can bet I called on that one.

[LogicWeasel]

5 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

So if i read that a PSU has great capacitors but has bad fan noise i may favour that over a unit with bad capacitors with a great fan.

Almost like you're implying that isn't exactly what this tier list puts more weight behind.  Do you find fault with the capacitors of the units given high tiering? 

 

I think you will likely find that any unit that makes it above Tier B cannot have weak caps or fan, and anything Tier A+ has to have a good fan or better (no sleeve bearing tolerated).

[LukeSavenije]

19 minutes ago, LogicWeasel said:

Almost like you're implying that isn't exactly what this tier list puts more weight behind.  Do you find fault with the capacitors of the units given high tiering? 

 

I think you will likely find that any unit that makes it above Tier B cannot have weak caps or fan, and anything Tier A+ has to have a good fan or better (no sleeve bearing tolerated).

most of it these days is double ball, rifle magnetic, or many other sorts of bearing, most manufacturers don't even make sleeve fans anymore

 

just ask @jonnyGURU why cxm doesn't have a sleeve bearing fan anymore

[Stefan Payne]

5 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

No no dont misread me, I just saw some of the pricing here and thought that some of the units were a little too high for names like "budget" or "mid range" on them.

Yes, and?!

The Tiers are named that way because that's what we see them as.

A high price unit can have Budget Performance or even worse.

There isn't necessarily a correlation between the two.

5 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

And yeah i consider fan noise a bit on the arbitrary side,

Why??
Because that is the first thing people notice!
That is the only thing that people notice!
That is the thing that can destroy the fun people have with a unit or rather the PC itself.

A 2000rpm fan at ~400W load is not acceptable.

A fan you hear tickering through the room is not acceptable.

 

So yes, that is something to take into account because its annoying...

 

You don't believe me? Get a 750W Chieftec Power Smart.

Get a CWT made SFX unit, either Chieftec, Revolution SFX.

 

 

5 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

while yes the capacitors are a huge reasonable thing to base things off

No its not, that's totally bogus.

We do not know the real Quality about the Caps.

@jonnyGURU is the only one here, who has some insights in the "Capacitor Matter".

 

We can rate Capacitors from 5, 7 and 10 Years ago and maybe guess how good/bad they are.

 

 

The basics of a PSU is:

1. Working protection, OCP on minor rails, OTP, UVP on 12V.  THAT is the bare minimum!
2. voltages NOT regulated in a group but independantly. Especially 5V from 12V. Group regulation is nothing you can have in modern Systems!
3. good electrical performance, good voltage regulation and ripple supression.

I consider everything under 60mV on 12V reasonably good, everything under 30mV awesome.

 

The Capacitors are totally overrated, other things are more important!

 

And if I see high quality 125°C Capacitors in a PSU, I wonder why they are there and not other things. Its not necessarily a sing of quality, its a sign of necessity.

Because if there are 125°C in a PSU, it might be because they are necessary and the PSU gets darn hot, that 105°C are not enough.

 

That is the Problem with people that don't have any experience in PSU construction rating the quality of a PSU.

Its just total nonsense and bullshit...

 

5 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

So if i read that a PSU has great capacitors but has bad fan noise i may favour that over a unit with bad capacitors with a great fan.

Why?!
Because you believe the fairy tale that Wapanese capacitors, wich can come out of the same factories as other capacitors to be better than others?? 
Isn't that a bit racist, to assume that because something is from a company of a certain country, it is better than other stuff?! 

Or isn't it just blindly believing some Marketing bullshit?!

 

When some real Engineers stand in front of a Camera and say "Teapo? Do they still exist? Who are they?" I can only bump my head on the table. Because he clearly has no idea about Capacitors or read up on that...

 

Because Power Electronics is not something ordinary electronics engineers are deeply interested in. So they don't know much about Power Supplies and power delivery things, its just there for them and a necessary evil.

 

To keep in Mind:

Japanese Companies are more like Mercedes/BMW in the 90s.

Taiwanese Companies are more like VW/Opel/Ford

What I'm saying is that Japanese only have higher end Stuff, while the Taiwanese have all you want!

From lower end/cheaper 2000h Lifetime Low Impedance up to 6-10kh Lifetime. Everything.
And guess what you see these days?? Mostly the lowest end stuff from the Non Japanese companies...

 

Besides that:
PSU ain't a box of Caps! Its more than that.

5 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

I do my own research on these PSU's

Yes, I do too.

I even talked with some real PSU Design Engineers in a company I had access to. 

Problem is: Without access to people in a Company and what they say, you don't know anything about PSU as the Information you need to learn are kept secret. 

But one thing I'm certain: The Capacitors are less important than you think!
And I rather have a Xilence Performance X the way it is (oh and by the way: It even seems to come with Japanese caps) than the unit for 5€ less that comes with the oh so great Japanese capacitors you call them, but:
is loud as hell

Doesn't have much Protection (no UVP on 12V; no OCP, no OTP) and is Groupregulated.

5 hours ago, MadmanRB said:

based on user feedback as well as their place on the PSU tier list.

As said, User Feedback is often misleading or wrong...

[Stefan Payne]

55 minutes ago, LogicWeasel said:

I think you will likely find that any unit that makes it above Tier B cannot have weak caps or fan, and anything Tier A+ has to have a good fan or better (no sleeve bearing tolerated).

Well, what are "weak Condensers"?? That is the Question. I don't have an Answer. Only the PSU design engineer that placed the caps on the PCB knows why it is there and did the Lifetime Calculations.

 

For us as simple Consumers, its often not possible to say that the capacitors are good or bad because it depends on a ton of factors.

One of those factors is Ripple Current, another one is Temperature. Both are very important for the lifetime. And then there is the bad chemical aging thanks to the dihydrogenmonoxyde, one of the most reactive substances known to man, if not the most reactive one, that is used to reduce the Impedance of a Capacitor. THAT substance is the reason of the Failure and other Problems.

 

And the thing that people don't talk about is that you can mitigate these potential issues with using more condensers in Parallel.

But that also increases the cost in some cases.

 

Personally I rather have 4 Caps instead of 2.

 

As for the Fan:
Yes, we allow Sleeve Bearing fans. Just not the simple sleevebearing one but improved, hydro dynamic sleeve bearings aren't a Problem and desired!

 

In fact, its the double Ball Bearing that has no place in normal Consumer units these days as the hydrodynamic bearings are equal in expected lifetimes but don't have the noise problems.

While the 2BB is better in high RPM and high temperature enviroments, so its not totally obsolete, only for consumer hardware, where noise is an important factor.

[LogicWeasel]

4 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

In fact, its the double Ball Bearing that has no place in normal Consumer units these days as the hydrodynamic bearings are equal in expected lifetimes but don't have the noise problems.

While the 2BB is better in high RPM and high temperature enviroments, so its not totally obsolete, only for consumer hardware, where noise is an important factor.

Interesting to know.  Are those the two primary types of fans used in modern PSUs or are there other types that show up commonly in them? 

 

I somewhat recall looking through categories of fans on Newegg and seeing a few other types listed (but some were rather similar in name) but not sure how relevant they are in this discussion.

[MadmanRB]

6 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yes, and?!

The Tiers are named that way because that's what we see them as.

A high price unit can have Budget Performance or even worse.

There isn't necessarily a correlation between the two.

Why??
Because that is the first thing people notice!
That is the only thing that people notice!
That is the thing that can destroy the fun people have with a unit or rather the PC itself.

A 2000rpm fan at ~400W load is not acceptable.

A fan you hear tickering through the room is not acceptable.

 

So yes, that is something to take into account because its annoying...

 

You don't believe me? Get a 750W Chieftec Power Smart.

Get a CWT made SFX unit, either Chieftec, Revolution SFX.

 

 

No its not, that's totally bogus.

We do not know the real Quality about the Caps.

@jonnyGURU is the only one here, who has some insights in the "Capacitor Matter".

 

We can rate Capacitors from 5, 7 and 10 Years ago and maybe guess how good/bad they are.

 

 

The basics of a PSU is:

1. Working protection, OCP on minor rails, OTP, UVP on 12V.  THAT is the bare minimum!
2. voltages NOT regulated in a group but independantly. Especially 5V from 12V. Group regulation is nothing you can have in modern Systems!
3. good electrical performance, good voltage regulation and ripple supression.

I consider everything under 60mV on 12V reasonably good, everything under 30mV awesome.

 

The Capacitors are totally overrated, other things are more important!

 

And if I see high quality 125°C Capacitors in a PSU, I wonder why they are there and not other things. Its not necessarily a sing of quality, its a sign of necessity.

Because if there are 125°C in a PSU, it might be because they are necessary and the PSU gets darn hot, that 105°C are not enough.

 

That is the Problem with people that don't have any experience in PSU construction rating the quality of a PSU.

Its just total nonsense and bullshit...

 

Why?!
Because you believe the fairy tale that Wapanese capacitors, wich can come out of the same factories as other capacitors to be better than others?? 
Isn't that a bit racist, to assume that because something is from a company of a certain country, it is better than other stuff?! 

Or isn't it just blindly believing some Marketing bullshit?!

 

When some real Engineers stand in front of a Camera and say "Teapo? Do they still exist? Who are they?" I can only bump my head on the table. Because he clearly has no idea about Capacitors or read up on that...

 

Because Power Electronics is not something ordinary electronics engineers are deeply interested in. So they don't know much about Power Supplies and power delivery things, its just there for them and a necessary evil.

 

To keep in Mind:

Japanese Companies are more like Mercedes/BMW in the 90s.

Taiwanese Companies are more like VW/Opel/Ford

What I'm saying is that Japanese only have higher end Stuff, while the Taiwanese have all you want!

From lower end/cheaper 2000h Lifetime Low Impedance up to 6-10kh Lifetime. Everything.
And guess what you see these days?? Mostly the lowest end stuff from the Non Japanese companies...

 

Besides that:
PSU ain't a box of Caps! Its more than that.

Yes, I do too.

I even talked with some real PSU Design Engineers in a company I had access to. 

Problem is: Without access to people in a Company and what they say, you don't know anything about PSU as the Information you need to learn are kept secret. 

But one thing I'm certain: The Capacitors are less important than you think!
And I rather have a Xilence Performance X the way it is (oh and by the way: It even seems to come with Japanese caps) than the unit for 5€ less that comes with the oh so great Japanese capacitors you call them, but:
is loud as hell

Doesn't have much Protection (no UVP on 12V; no OCP, no OTP) and is Groupregulated.

As said, User Feedback is often misleading or wrong...

 

Okay let me break this down as best as i can:

 

Fan noise for me is a bit arbitrary after all not everyone keeps their PC in the same room they sleep.

And in all honesty I find some fans pleasing to the ear, sure yes one should never have a fan that sounds like a jet engine but I do appreciate hearing a gentile "Hum" even on my PC that is indeed in my room.

I actually find it a comforting noise, not too loud but harmonic and almost like one of those cool white noise machines.

 

Secondly uhh where did i mention anything racist?

I am more aware that our electronics are made in Asian countries and sometimes yes that "made in China" label can be off putting as Chinas quality control is.... iffy at best.

But its kind of become a major label so best to more check what factory its made in and what quality control is in said factory.

And as for that "Waponese" comment, as a certain Time traveller once said "all the best stuff is made in Japan!"

Though personally I give my hat off to Korean, Philippine, Malaysian and yes even Chinese vendors.

Heck give me some Vietnam too, Taiwan? Yes please!

As for any other Asian country or other country I missed, oops!

And yes i am aware that Japanese capacitors don't mean much if the rest of the unit is not that good so yeah theres that.

 

As for the capacitor i was only referencing it as it was an example, I do know that a PSU is more than a bunch of capacitors soldered to a tiny board you know.

I have seen teardowns, and while i am no expert on everything in a PSU i do get what most things do in a PSU does or at least get the base concept of it.

[Herman Mcpootis]

45 minutes ago, MadmanRB said:

And as for that "Waponese" comment, as a certain Time traveller once said "all the best stuff is made in Japan!"

outsourcing is a thing, so those items you got from a japanese company could be made in china.

[MadmanRB]

2 minutes ago, Herman Mcpootis said:

outsourcing is a thing, so those items you got from a japanese company could be made in china.

Indeed, I just used the quote for fun

[LienusLateTips]

5 hours ago, LogicWeasel said:

Interesting to know.  Are those the two primary types of fans used in modern PSUs or are there other types that show up commonly in them? 

 

I somewhat recall looking through categories of fans on Newegg and seeing a few other types listed (but some were rather similar in name) but not sure how relevant they are in this discussion.

Simple sleeve bearing (We try not to put these above B unless there are some special circumstances)

Rifle bearing (improved sleeve)

HDB (improved sleeve)

Ball Bearing/Double Ball Bearing (usually pretty loud, less common nowadays)

And a few other obscure ones.

[LienusLateTips]

On 3/18/2019 at 1:27 AM, Spotty said:

80 Plus ratings are not a model. Do you mean the EVGA W1 and EVGA N1? If so, you should specify the actual models and not just their 80 Plus rating. EVGA has a habit of releasing 6,000 models of PSU within the same 80 Plus ranking space, so who knows if they release a W2 or N2 unit that might be completely different... Everything else on the list has its series name listed, so makes no sense to just categorise those by 80+ ratings.

Just noting this, they do actually have a Asia only W2 and N2 that appear to be just as bad.

[XR6]

16 hours ago, jonnyGURU said:

You completely underestimate the incompetence of UPS, Fedex, etc. and the warehouse workers at Amazon, Newegg, etc. that are throwing these things around.

 

Damage doesn't have to occur by "crushed box".  G forces alone can knock things loose if the box is dropped or thrown from a considerable distance.

 

38 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Exactly, I have had broken parts come, the box being fine, when Amazon refuses to put packaging material inside of the box letting it rattle around inside.  It's also common practice for package handlers to chuck boxes.

I 100% agree with both of these statements. Postal/warehouse workers can be incompetent and reckless at times.

Even a rough ride in a postal truck can screw up some packages. It's really easy for packages to get messed up in the mail.

 

I speak from experience, I have bought things that have been completely unusable thanks to postal damage. 

I bought a motherboard from my cousin which got shipped 6000 miles by the world's most incompetent postal service (SAPO).

It passed through the same mail center that looks like this:

Spoiler

Yes.. it really is that bad.

 

Postal/warehouse workers mistreat and damage packages a lot more than you'd like to believe.

[Stefan Payne]

5 hours ago, LienusLateTips said:

Simple sleeve bearing (We try not to put these above B unless there are some special circumstances)

Rifle bearing (improved sleeve)

HDB (improved sleeve)

Ball Bearing/Double Ball Bearing (usually pretty loud, less common nowadays)

And a few other obscure ones.

You forgot the most common one: Fluid Dynamic Bearing.

 

The Magnetic Levitation Bearing is not seen in PSU yet.

3 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

No, racism is hating someone/judging someone based on the color of their skin.  A demonym =/= race.  It could be seen as borderline bigotry, but people use the term racism improperly all the time.  Hating on a religion, with unfounded claims/hate speech, is religious bigotry.  Hating someone for where they come from is ethnic bigotry.  Hating someone for the color of their skin is racism.  But, they're all forms of bigotry and still fucked up.

Naa, its basically discriminating against a race, not just color of the skin.

You can argue that the irish are a race and thus be racist against Irish people. Same as other poplations as well.

You can argue that "Chinese" are a race as well, as they seem to look a bit different than Koreans and Japanese, that isn't too far fetched either.

 

But yeah, the Word is used mostly not correct and redefined in a way that makes absolutely no sense...

 

However you call it, its just wrong to say that because of a companys Origin, they are better than another one!!

 

In Real Life its more nuanced and caps are getting better...

The Origins in a China made device are mostly China as well, because of high import tax, so you need to have your stuff made inside the Country...

[MEC-777]

Let's keep this thread on-topic please. 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

 

No its not, that's totally bogus.

We do not know the real Quality about the Caps.

@jonnyGURU is the only one here, who has some insights in the "Capacitor Matter".

 

[PlayStation 2]

17 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

But where's the Raspberry Duff, Lady Duff and the gummy beers?

[MEC-777]

New modular "mid-range" units from Silverstone. 

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/254135/silverstone-rolls-out-strider-plus-bronze-series-mid-range-modular-psus

[Muhammad2126]

that one is in the A tier right

CORSAIR RMX Series (2018), RM650x, 650 Watt, 80+ Gold Certified, Fully Modular Power Supply

https://www.amazon.com/CORSAIR-RM650x-Certified-Modular-Supply/dp/B079H6111J/ref=cm_wl_huc_item