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Intel CPUs afflicted with simple spec-exec vulnerability

vitor_cut
By vitor_cut
in Tech News
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I always like to take this time to point out that in 1995 the IEEE and the NSA copublished a paper titled "The Intel 80x86 processor architecture: pitfalls for secure systems". The paper went over various speculative execution attacks that the NSA had found in Intel processors.

So, just to be clear, this was pointed out over 20 years ago and no one has done anything about it.

ENCRYPTION IS NOT A CRIME

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14 minutes ago, pas008 said:

which mistakes? not doubting some but looking for your opinion

Mistakes? Well, the bugs we've discovered multiple times now. Some of those were not just Intel, and affect all modern CPU design (Example: Spectre + Meltdown situation), but in addition to that, there's the terrible naming conventions that they occasionally decide to use. There's also the whole HEDT fiasco that Linus lambasted them about (They released essentially mainstream grade CPU's with a huge markup on the HEDT platform to "combat" Ryzen).

 

Then, on top of that, there's been multiple lawsuits and patent infringement - though to be perfectly fair, that's an industry wide problem.

 

Intel makes some great CPU's. But they're not even remotely close to a perfect company, and by the time Ryzen was released, they were getting so stagnant as to become anti-consumer. Fortunately AMD kicked them straight in the ass, and they're at least marginally trying now.

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20 minutes ago, pas008 said:

which mistakes? not doubting some but looking for your opinion

not offering 6Core+ CPU in Desktop Sockets without external pressure

increasing prices for K CPUs

The TDP Shenanigans...

not getting 10nm running and investing enough

The shit they pulled with their MODEMs and Apple, where its said that APPLE helped them getting it running - with allegedly Qualcom IP.

 

In short: sleeping and only do some slight incremental increases that nobody really cares about. 2-5% better performance from generation to generation - yeah...

 

WHEN did we see a big improvement in CPU stuff? 

When/after Ryzen was released...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

Another vulnerability doesn't look good for Intel, but yeah it isn't as serious as the clickbait news makes it seem, the browser has to be running Javascript or the system be infected with malware in the first place.

Every browser uses javascript. Otherwise almost all sites today would be broken

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
2 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Every browser uses javascript. Otherwise almost all sites today would be broken

To be fair, an EXTREME minority of LTT users use stuff like NoScript and block all JavaScript from running by default. They may have an incorrect assumption that everyone does this.

 

But yes, the vast vast vast majority of users have JavaScript enabled - even among us at LTT.

For Sale: Meraki Bundle

 

iPhone Xr 128 GB Product Red - HP Spectre x360 13" (i5 - 8 GB RAM - 256 GB SSD) - HP ZBook 15v G5 15" (i7-8850H - 16 GB RAM - 512 GB SSD - NVIDIA Quadro P600)

 

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2 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Every browser uses javascript. Otherwise almost all sites today would be broken

Here I am watching how to make C less dangerous to the kernel. No OS would be born without it:

 

Your resident osu! player, destroyer of keyboards.

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3 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

To be fair, an EXTREME minority of LTT users use stuff like NoScript and block all JavaScript from running by default. They may have an incorrect assumption that everyone does this.

 

But yes, the vast vast vast majority of users have JavaScript enabled - even among us at LTT.

Yeah I have javascript disabled but I'd assume most people don't and probably have no clue what javascript is. They'd probably think it's the thing minecraft is programmed with.

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
1 minute ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah I have javascript disabled but I'd assume most people don't and probably have no clue what javascript is. They'd probably think it's the thing minecraft is programmed with.

Indeed, people (even "techies" here) confuse Java and JavaScript all the time.

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3 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Indeed, people (even "techies" here) confuse Java and JavaScript all the time.

Could because the name is a terrible choice lol

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
39 minutes ago, pas008 said:

90% of programs are stilll single core

huge gamer pie is 1080p still

intel is performing better on many fronts for now

If you actually believe that Intel's profits are that much influenced by builders and gamers you are wrong.

What really counts big time is the server market, and while still being dominated by Intel, they are losing market share at an incredible fast pace. The prebuilt/laptop market is what comes after the server market and Intel is starting to lose market share there too as manufactuers start giving more space to AMD in their products as Ryzen revealed to be a success unlike previous AMD archs.

24 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Intel could literally stop all sales of every single product, and continue to employ their entire workforce as normal for 5+ years before running out of money.

 

There's no doubt they are successful, but they are making some huge mistakes lately.

Lol. No, that's a terrible example or attempt at justifying a bad turn for Intel.

Because Intel surely does not have any liabilities lying around that need to be paid? (of course they do)

Offices, production facilities, machinery etc. cost, even when not running.

 

Obviously AMD has their own fair share of problems with debt which they are recovering from just now etc. In the CPU market, for mid to long-term, AMD has a much better outlook right now than Intel, especially in the server market.

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Just now, BuckGup said:

Could because the name is a terrible choice lol

I don't disagree xD

Just now, Nocte said:

If you actually believe that Intel's profits are that much influenced by builders and gamers you are wrong.

What really counts big time is the server market, and while still being dominated by Intel, they are losing market share at an incredible fast pace. The prebuilt/laptop market is what comes after the server market and Intel is starting to lose market share there too as manufactuers start giving more space to AMD in their products as Ryzen revealed to be a success unlike previous AMD archs.

Indeed, the custom build market is literally a drop in the hat for Intel. OEM PC's/Laptops (Dell, HP, Acer, etc) make up the bulk of PC sales in general.

 

Beyond that, Enterprise is where the money is actually at. AMD has been slow to gain Server marketshare, as people are weary at a "new" offering. But it's getting there.

Just now, Nocte said:

Lol. No, that's a terrible example or attempt at justifying a bad turn for Intel.

Because Intel surely does not have any liabilities lying around that need to be paid? (of course they do)

Offices, production facilities, machinery etc. cost, even when not running.

Okay... what? I don't think you understand me.

 

Yes, they have liabilities. Offices, product facilities, etc. And they have debt too.

 

My point is they also have over $25Bn in cold hard cash. They're no Apple with $100Bn+, but $25Bn could keep their offices and facilities open for quite some time. Which is entirely my point. They are a financially successful company with a large cash reserve. Anything else you're reading into that? Not part of my discussion.

 

 

Just now, Nocte said:

Obviously AMD has their own fair share of problems with debt which they are recovering from just now etc. In the CPU market, for mid to long-term, AMD has a much better outlook right now than Intel, especially in the server market.

I would in general agree to this. However, I'd rather say that AMD has a more promising outlook on growth, specifically. Intel still has a very promising financial outlook for Server Market and in general. But they're going to lose marketshare. It's inevitable, since Zen is a killer good architecture. But them losing Marketshare isn't going to doom their company.

 

Granted, I am very excited to see AMD take a larger and larger chunk of the market. Ideally I'd like to get them to 50/50 markshare, or perhaps 33/33/33 with a third entrant (Qualcomm maybe?) swinging in and really mixing things up. And yes I know, ARM servers already exist, but they're pretty niche - I'd like to see that grow so that we have even more competition all around.

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29 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Mistakes? Well, the bugs we've discovered multiple times now. Some of those were not just Intel, and affect all modern CPU design (Example: Spectre + Meltdown situation), but in addition to that, there's the terrible naming conventions that they occasionally decide to use. There's also the whole HEDT fiasco that Linus lambasted them about (They released essentially mainstream grade CPU's with a huge markup on the HEDT platform to "combat" Ryzen).

 

Then, on top of that, there's been multiple lawsuits and patent infringement - though to be perfectly fair, that's an industry wide problem.

 

Intel makes some great CPU's. But they're not even remotely close to a perfect company, and by the time Ryzen was released, they were getting so stagnant as to become anti-consumer. Fortunately AMD kicked them straight in the ass, and they're at least marginally trying now.

hedt i agree on but if they want to make more options for people thats their problem

stagnant but developing in many other areas hmmm

28 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

not offering 6Core+ CPU in Desktop Sockets without external pressure

increasing prices for K CPUs

The TDP Shenanigans...

not getting 10nm running and investing enough

The shit they pulled with their MODEMs and Apple, where its said that APPLE helped them getting it running - with allegedly Qualcom IP.

 

In short: sleeping and only do some slight incremental increases that nobody really cares about. 2-5% better performance from generation to generation - yeah...

 

WHEN did we see a big improvement in CPU stuff? 

When/after Ryzen was released...

funny thing is competition is usually what drives innovation

intel released 8 core mainstream on haswell you still be bitching and intel would be stuck with stricker monopoly laws on every cpu sounds like smart business decision

tdp thing has been explained to you many times

10nm is huge problem right now when their supposedly best 14nm products are still ahead in many areas on amds

plus arent they opening up couple more fabs?

qualcomm comment lol seriously when they are the biggest monopolistic company on arm cpus kinda funny

 

avx, etc is improvements also

 

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2 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

My point is they also have over $25Bn in cold hard cash. They're no Apple with $100Bn+, but $25Bn could keep their offices and facilities open for quite some time. Which is entirely my point. They are a financially successful company with a large cash reserve. Anything else you're reading into that? Not part of my discussion.

I was just stating a flaw in your post, it is obvious that they are a financially succesful company. My comment on that was mainly about the flaw rather than going for a discussion about it (as it would be pretty unfruitful since it would be based on speculations based their latest financial reports and the discussion wouldn't really have a clear goal at the end lol :D).

2 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

But them losing Marketshare isn't going to doom their company.

That is indeed true, it takes WAY more than what is going right now to make a company exit the market. I am not looking forward that one company "wins" the market as it will eventually backlash on us consumers (hence why I don't really understand being hard fanboys, even though I can understand a slight tendency towards a certain brand).

7 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Granted, I am very excited to see AMD take a larger and larger chunk of the market. Ideally I'd like to get them to 50/50 markshare, or perhaps 33/33/33 with a third entrant

I am looking forward a 50/50 marketshare too (it will still take years, unless some big unexpected stuff happens in the future). I am not sure about the 3rd entrant as it would make everything more complex to run on the software side of things. But it would definitely be an interesting turn for the market.

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3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

hedt i agree on but if they want to make more options for people thats their problem

More options aren't the problem. Taking the same thing you're already selling for cheaper, calling it "High End", and slapping a 40% price increase on it is the problem.

3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

stagnant but developing in many other areas hmmm

I really don't understand your point here. Intel was getting stagnant in their CPU division. There's no arguing that. Case in point: Everything from 2nd Gen Core i-series all the way to 7th Gen processors had marginal improvements. No core increases, just refinements and minor clock boosts.

 

Yes, there were the odd really good improvement on certain specific things during that time, but we had a relatively high clocked 4-core w/ HT i7 all the way from 2011 to 2017.

 

So yes. Stagnant.

 

Other portions of Intel remained competitive - such as their SSD/NAND side, and their Compute Cards, due to intense competition.

3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

funny thing is competition is usually what drives innovation

Yep. Not news though.

3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

intel released 8 core mainstream on haswell you still be bitching and intel would be stuck with monopoly laws on every cpu sounds like smart business decision

Yeah... except they didn't release 8 core mainstream CPU's on Haswell. Instead, they released 4-core w/ HT mainstream CPU's - with minor improvements over the previous year.

3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

tdp thing has been explained to you many times

I'm just gonna not even wade into the whole TDP discussion.

3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

10nm is huge problem right now when their supposedly best 14nm products are still ahead in many areas on amds

"In many areas" might be a stretch, but yes, Intel's 14nm fab is considered a little bit better than TSMC's or GloFo's (16/14).

3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

plus arent they opening up couple more fabs?

qualcomm comment lol seriously when they are the biggest monopolistic company on arm cpus kinda funny

Qualcomm is indeed pretty much a monopoly on the ARM SoC Mobile side, but they can use ARM to compete against Intel and AMD in the server market. Though they're not a full monopoly, since Samsung and Apple both compete against Qualcomm too.

3 minutes ago, pas008 said:

avx is improvements also

That's true.

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5 minutes ago, Nocte said:

I was just stating a flaw in your post, it is obvious that they are a financially succesful company. My comment on that was mainly about the flaw rather than going for a discussion about it (as it would be pretty unfruitful since it would be based on speculations based their latest financial reports and the discussion wouldn't really have a clear goal at the end lol :D).

I don't see any flaw in my post, but I digress.

5 minutes ago, Nocte said:

That is indeed true, it takes WAY more than what is going right now to make a company exit the market. I am not looking forward that one company "wins" the market as it will eventually backlash on us consumers (hence why I don't really understand being hard fanboys, even though I can understand a slight tendency towards a certain brand).

I am looking forward a 50/50 marketshare too (it will still take years, unless some big unexpected stuff happens in the future). I am not sure about the 3rd entrant as it would make everything more complex to run on the software side of things. But it would definitely be an interesting turn for the market.

Keep in mind that Apple is already confirmed to be planning on moving over to ARM for their macOS lineup of hardware. While Apple has a very small marketshare, if they can successfully make the switch to ARM while maintaining legacy compatibility with x86 and x86-64 software without horrible performance hits, that will be an excellent proof of concept for companies like Microsoft.

 

Hell Microsoft has been trying to make ARM work for a while now. The problem is that Microsoft isn't going about it the right way. They need a translation layer, instead of relying on people buying from the Microsoft Store.

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11 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

I don't see any flaw in my post, but I digress.

Keep in mind that Apple is already confirmed to be planning on moving over to ARM for their macOS lineup of hardware. While Apple has a very small marketshare, if they can successfully make the switch to ARM while maintaining legacy compatibility with x86 and x86-64 software without horrible performance hits, that will be an excellent proof of concept for companies like Microsoft.

 

Hell Microsoft has been trying to make ARM work for a while now. The problem is that Microsoft isn't going about it the right way. They need a translation layer, instead of relying on people buying from the Microsoft Store.

If. 

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10 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Hell Microsoft has been trying to make ARM work for a while now. The problem is that Microsoft isn't going about it the right way. They need a translation layer, instead of relying on people buying from the Microsoft Store.

Windows 10 on ARM supposedly has full X86 compatibility. You're thinking of Windows RT, which did have this limitation. Though, there are about 2 devices in existence on Windows 10 ARM technology that:

 

Arent using the CPU intended for the OS (as it wasn't out at the time of their release. They wanted to be first on the market, under the assumption that MS could actually launch a bug-free update)

 

Arent using the correct build of the OS (October 2018 update), because it STILL. ISN'T. OUT. YET.

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

More options aren't the problem. Taking the same thing you're already selling for cheaper, calling it "High End", and slapping a 40% price increase on it is the problem.

I really don't understand your point here. Intel was getting stagnant in their CPU division. There's no arguing that. Case in point: Everything from 2nd Gen Core i-series all the way to 7th Gen processors had marginal improvements. No core increases, just refinements and minor clock boosts.

 

Yes, there were the odd really good improvement on certain specific things during that time, but we had a relatively high clocked 4-core w/ HT i7 all the way from 2011 to 2017.

 

So yes. Stagnant.

 

Other portions of Intel remained competitive - such as their SSD/NAND side, and their Compute Cards, due to intense competition.

Yep. Not news though.

Yeah... except they didn't release 8 core mainstream CPU's on Haswell. Instead, they released 4-core w/ HT mainstream CPU's - with minor improvements over the previous year.

I'm just gonna not even wade into the whole TDP discussion.

"In many areas" might be a stretch, but yes, Intel's 14nm fab is considered a little bit better than TSMC's or GloFo's (16/14).

Qualcomm is indeed pretty much a monopoly on the ARM SoC Mobile side, but they can use ARM to compete against Intel and AMD in the server market. Though they're not a full monopoly, since Samsung and Apple both compete against Qualcomm too.

That's true.

if a consumer wants to pay the extra then the fault is on the consumer

core increase wasnt needed,bulldozer had more cores but couldnt compete overall

plus now finally devs are starting to use more cores so its finally needed supposedly from intels side, there was always the hedt side for those users back then

hopefully more devs continue to utilize more cores finally

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

If. 

Yes. And?

 

If anyone can do it, I whole heartedly believe Apple is one of the few. They successfully went through a near identical transition when they went from PPC to x86, and they had a translation layer there. Granted, anything really high performance worked like crap with the translation layer, but all the common apps like Browsers, Word Processors, etc, worked fine.

 

And that's honestly all they need here too. Any of the super demanding apps people use on macOS like FinalCut and Adobe Suite will definitely see ports to ARM (in fact, Adobe already has an ARM port for iOS for some of their apps already, so they'd just need some tweaking and a UI modification).

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Just now, pas008 said:

core increase wasnt needed,bulldozer had more cores but couldnt compete overall

Nope, Bulldozer was really only 4 cores at its max. They considered what was effectively good hyper-threading as cores.

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blows my mind that Intel spent years barely improving their CPUs when they could have spent that time fixing security flaws.

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1 minute ago, poochyena said:

blows my mind that Intel spent years barely improving their CPUs when they could have spent that time fixing security flaws.

Yep. Im moving to AMD as soon as Zen 3 comes out.

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8 minutes ago, SenpaiKaplan said:

Windows 10 on ARM supposedly has full X86 compatibility. You're thinking of Windows RT, which did have this limitation. Though, there are about 2 devices in existence on Windows 10 ARM technology that:

Do you have a source for that?

Quote

Arent using the CPU intended for the OS (as it wasn't out at the time of their release. They wanted to be first on the market, under the assumption that MS could actually launch a bug-free update)

Microsoft launching a bug free update is a tall order, these days.

Quote

Arent using the correct build of the OS (October 2018 update), because it STILL. ISN'T. OUT. YET.

I stopped keeping track after the 1809 disaster. I do believe it's finally out now though, unless they yet again pulled it.

8 minutes ago, pas008 said:

if a consumer wants to pay the extra then the fault is on the consumer

Consumers don't know jack shit about CPU's. They see bigger numbers, and they think better. Yes, the consumer should be more aware about their purchases, but let's be frank. Regular consumers will never understand how CPU's work, or what specific part numbers are better and by how much.

 

So, as far as you're concerned, Intel doing something anti-consumer is okay because the consumer is stupid? We'll have to disagree hard here.

Quote

core increase wasnt needed,bulldozer had more cores but couldnt compete overall

Bulldozer had a regression in per core performance. That's why it was worse and couldn't compete. They had a long term strategy that failed horribly.

 

More cores were indeed still needed. But the problem was that no one was making a CPU that was as good as the current (at the time) Intel standard, with just more cores.

Quote

plus now finally devs are starting to use more cores so its finally needed supposedly from intels side, there was always the hedt side for those users back then

hopefully more devs continue to utilize more cores finally

Mainstream applications have been lagging, yes, but there's plenty of applications that have benefited from more cores even as far back as Bulldozer.

 

6 minutes ago, SenpaiKaplan said:

Nope, Bulldozer was really only 4 cores at its max. They considered what was effectively good hyper-threading as cores.

Disagree strong. Bulldozer had 8 execution units that happened to share some resources (Int units, if I recall correctly). You can't use that to say they weren't cores though - because old school CPU's didn't even have Int units. Yes, they were garbage cores, and performed similarly to Intel cores + HT, but that doesn't make it some form of hyperthreading (SMT). They were just shit cores.

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1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

Do you have a source for that?

 

"Rather than creating a more limited version of Windows for this platform, like they did with the failed Windows RT, Microsoft has decided to release a full version of Windows 10 for ARM hardware, one that can even run traditional Windows desktop applications." -Sourced from HowToGeek, who sourced it from MS.

 

2 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Microsoft launching a bug free update is a tall order, these days.

I stopped keeping track after the 1809 disaster. I do believe it's finally out now though, unless they yet again pulled it.

Nope, the October Update got pulled again. Still not out officially.

 

3 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Disagree strong. Bulldozer had 8 execution units that happened to share some resources (Int units, if I recall correctly). You can't use that to say they weren't cores though - because old school CPU's didn't even have Int units.

AMD is currently in court over Bulldozers "cores". So, I guess we'll get them answer that. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-fx-processors-lawsuit-continues,38486.html

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Just now, SenpaiKaplan said:

"Rather than creating a more limited version of Windows for this platform, like they did with the failed Windows RT, Microsoft has decided to release a full version of Windows 10 for ARM hardware, one that can even run traditional Windows desktop applications." -Sourced from HowToGeek, who sourced it from MS.

That's a whole lot of PR speak. It says "Traditional Windows Desktop" application, but doesn't specifically say x86. Granted, I think it's safe to assume that's what they meant, but I'll believe it when I see it.

 

If true, that's fantastic though.

Just now, SenpaiKaplan said:

Nope, the October Update got pulled again. Still not out officially.

Good ole Microsoft.

Just now, SenpaiKaplan said:

AMD is currently in court over Bulldozers "cores". So, I guess we'll get them answer that. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-fx-processors-lawsuit-continues,38486.html

Yes I saw that lawsuit, and it's goddamn stupid. The worst part about it, is that some Judge who doesn't know a thing about CPU's might end up creating a legal definition for "CPU Core". It's a dangerous precedent.

 

The guy was basically mad because he thought "more cores must be faster", when that's not how it works. Cores and Architecture are independent (though related) things. If the architecture regresses, then each core will be slower.

 

So, will he win? Only time will tell - I personally hope he does not win.

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