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Mini-news: AMD Zen 2 architecture said to have 16% higher IPC than the original 1st-gen Zen CPUs

Morgan MLGman
By Morgan MLGman
in Tech News
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Posted

Combined with 10% better clockspeeds and lower power consumption from 7nm this should be great.

 

Specially look forward to what they can do in the laptop market in 2019. Expect some great 7nm APUs.

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4 minutes ago, porina said:

Ryzen 1000 = Zen

Ryzen 2000 = Zen+ (mostly, but APUs are still Zen I think?)

Ryzen ???? = Zen2 but would agree 3000 series would make sense.

No, APUs and Ryzen mobile chips are also based on Zen+ :)
Correction, I just checked and my R5 2500U is based on 14nm. Researching further means that it's not technically Zen+, but it has a lot in common with it so it's improved over original Zen.

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D GPU: AMD Radeon RX 6900 XT 16GB GDDR6 Motherboard: MSI PRESTIGE X570 CREATION
AIO: Corsair H150i Pro RAM: Corsair Dominator Platinum RGB 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 Case: Lian Li PC-O11 Dynamic PSU: Corsair RM850x White

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1 minute ago, porina said:

 

Ryzen 1000 = Zen

Ryzen 2000 = Zen+ (mostly, but APUs are still Zen I think?)

Ryzen ???? = Zen2 but would agree 3000 series would make sense.

Their numbering are wack and difficult to follow.

 

I assumed first number was zen architecture, second was series but this blows up as Ryzen 5 second number is a 6 while Ryzen 3 and 7 are 3 and 7 respectively.

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4.5ghz in the rumor mill to so 16% IPC plus 4.5ghz and Intel CPUs have to drop in price

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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6 minutes ago, Franck said:

Their numbering are wack and difficult to follow.

 

I assumed first number was zen architecture, second was series but this blows up as Ryzen 5 second number is a 6 while Ryzen 3 and 7 are 3 and 7 respectively.

It's only as difficult as you make it out to be.

In reality it's quite simple particularly if you either don't know a whole lot (eg mainstream consumer) or if you know a lot (enthusiast). If you're confused you must be in the unlucky position as to be in between where you know enough to be confused but not enough to not be confused.

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So far that would be a healthy increase. How much will they boost clock speed is another one. Would be great to see clocks like FX series. 

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15 minutes ago, porina said:

I look forward to testing it... if I ever catch up, I still haven't done my intended tests on Zen, Zen+ and selected Intels... been intending to come up with my own comparison of HT/SMT and a side effect of doing that would also include single thread IPC data.

From all the tests I've seen AMD SMT > Intel HT

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10 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

No, APUs and Ryzen mobile chips are also based on Zen+ :)
Correction, I just checked and my R5 2500U is based on 14nm. Researching further means that it's not technically Zen+, but it has a lot in common with it so it's improved over original Zen.

The APUs were actually started to be designed half way through the deign phase of first gen, the work continued through after the release of ZEN and as such they managed to merge into it some of the easier to implement ZEN+ improvements on the APU architecture. 

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2 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said:

From all the tests I've seen AMD SMT > Intel HT

Yes, to a degree. I want to better understand that difference.

 

To my current understanding, enabling Ryzen SMT gives more increase over doing same with Intel HT, however Ryzen is starting from a slightly lower position, it still can end up ahead overall. I want to quantify that better under various scenarios.

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9 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said:

From all the tests I've seen AMD SMT > Intel HT

Yeah, because there are most likely more bubbles to fill 

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Excited to see what Ryzen 2 brings to the table. Currently using a 5820K for workstation use with casual gaming on the side and it has started to show its age.

 

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21 minutes ago, ThePD said:

Excited to see what Ryzen 2 brings to the table. Currently using a 5820K for workstation use with casual gaming on the side and it has started to show its age.

 

How? When overclocked to around 4,5GHz (it can go higher than that) it should be an excellent gaming CPU.

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Creeping up on intel with both IPC and Clock increases each generation seems like a nice strategy specially now after the heavily rumored problems intel is having with newer fab nodes.

 

Hopefully by the time Zen 2 matures they'll have another 10% market share regained on top of what they have regained right now.

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1 minute ago, Morgan MLGman said:

How? When overclocked to around 4,5GHz (it can go higher than that) it should be an excellent gaming CPU.

Mine was a terrible overclocker that couldn't get higher than 3.7 without hard crashing. Got a great 980Ti that overclocked well but my 5820k was the worst silicon lottery I have ever had.

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4 minutes ago, ThePD said:

Mine was a terrible overclocker that couldn't get higher than 3.7 without hard crashing. Got a great 980Ti that overclocked well but my 5820k was the worst silicon lottery I have ever had.

Bad luck then :( I put a 5820K in my father's rig and set it to 4,5GHz quite easily while maintaining silent profile of the PC (it's cooled by a Dark Rock Pro 3 cooler), however I did achieve 4,7GHz with louder fan profiles and I've seen quite a bit of people reach that mark (4,7GHz/4,8GHz) under sufficient cooling.

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2 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

Bad luck then :( I put a 5820K in my father's rig and set it to 4,5GHz quite easily while maintaining silent profile of the PC (it's cooled by a Dark Rock Pro 3 cooler), however I did achieve 4,7GHz with louder fan profiles and I've seen quite a bit of people reach that mark (4,7GHz/4,8GHz) under sufficient cooling.

I put a 2700X into my fathers video editing rig and got that up to 4.2 across all cores. I loaded up some of the content that I do and was amazed with how well the 2700X performed. I would be happy if my 5820k ever hit 4.0.

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2 minutes ago, Okjoek said:

6 core APUs and 12 core mainstream please. ?

I doubt any of those will happen, for the APUs it's hard to fit more than one CCX (4 cores) on one CPU because of the large Vega iGPU on it. For mainstream CPUs, how would the core configuration look like? 3 CCX modules? I doubt that's a technically viable option for AMD...

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1 minute ago, Morgan MLGman said:

I doubt any of those will happen, for the APUs it's hard to fit more than one CCX (4 cores) on one CPU because of the large Vega iGPU on it. For mainstream CPUs, how would the core configuration look like? 3 CCX modules? I doubt that's a technically viable option for AMD...

I think 6 core CCXs are more than possible and would make sense for mobile use 

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Just now, Ben Quigley said:

I think 6 core CCXs are more than possible and would make sense for mobile use 

They're technically possible, yes, however they're not really viable as that would force a CCX redesign, with redesigning how memory channels, caches and stuff like that work on Zen. Since its advantage is relatively low manufacturing cost, I doubt AMD would do that.

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1 hour ago, porina said:

Good question. AMD chose not to compete with Intel in that area with Ryzen to date, but Intel are not resting and are pushing AVX-512 which could put them up to 4x IPC of Ryzen. If AMD were to match Intel consumer CPU performance, I'd expect to see closer to 100% improvement (depending on workload), not 16%.

 

If I had to guess, AVX is not where I'd look at. Maybe more towards further memory controller, cache and internal connectivity optimisations. Scientific tasks can depend more on those factors than consumer workloads.

AVX512 is for DDR5. Part of AMD's much slower moves into that area is simply down to the rest of the system technologies not being able to really leverage it yet. For any type of realistic workloads, AVX512 just needs a good chunk more memory bandwidth, leaving it mostly memory starved on DDR4 platforms. If we get >8 channel memory, though, there might be faster adoption. It's not quite RTX-like in adoption timeline, but it'll be a bit.

 

AMD has a lot of room to improve in Cache Management, compared to Intel. That's been Intel's one real bread & butter advantage since the mid-2000s. When it comes to the actual output of the Cores themselves, Zen brought AMD to parity with Intel, but their I/O & Memory systems are still a development cycle behind Intel's. That's part of the reason for the tighter timings seeming to be more effective on AMD. (Relatively, that's actually not true. Intel gets just as much out of faster memory, but the Intel IMC gives you up to the point of diminishing returns a lot easier. Thus, perception is that there was a bigger boost to Ryzen.)

 

Bits & Chip's sources are normally pretty good, so this is probably about where things will land. But there's an interesting note. The Stilt's testing puts Intel's Skylake-X line about 25% higher IPC in the heavy Workstation loads. That's where those AVX units are important. We'll see what AMD does, but even just doubling the 2 128bit FPUs already there would seem fairly expected. 

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17 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

I doubt any of those will happen, for the APUs it's hard to fit more than one CCX (4 cores) on one CPU because of the large Vega iGPU on it. For mainstream CPUs, how would the core configuration look like? 3 CCX modules? I doubt that's a technically viable option for AMD...

The CCX design abuses the power of the 4-Way interconnects. To use a 6 core CCX would require an interior Ring. For the APU and Sony PS5, it's very possible that's the design approach they went with, as it might allow better connection to the GPU. It would also make sense for AMD's designs to branch out differently, just given the needs of their Semi-Custom partners and what needs to be made for specific market segments.

 

However, I don't believe we'll see 6 core CCX in the Ryzen 3000 series. That'd first show up in the 4000 series APUs if AMD is going that direction.

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11 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

For any type of realistic workloads, AVX512 just needs a good chunk more memory bandwidth, leaving it mostly memory starved on DDR4 platforms.

Painfully true. For even AVX2, I think 2 (fast) cores per DDR4 channel is about the most it can feed. Implicitly for a 2-unit AVX-512 implementation, you'd want to look towards one channel per (fast) core. This is worst case (Prime95 like workloads) so others might get away with less.

 

11 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

We'll see what AMD does, but even just doubling the 2 128bit FPUs already there would seem fairly expected. 

Are you suggesting AMD might reach parity with consumer Intel in that department? That's been the biggest factor stopping me from building out AMD CPU systems in my personal farm. It could be a "goodbye Intel" moment for me if they did that, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Main system: i9-7980XE, Asus X299 TUF mark 2, Noctua D15, Corsair Vengeance Pro 3200 3x 16GB 2R, RTX 3070, NZXT E850, GameMax Abyss, Samsung 980 Pro 2TB, Acer Predator XB241YU 24" 1440p 144Hz G-Sync + HP LP2475w 24" 1200p 60Hz wide gamut
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1 minute ago, porina said:

Painfully true. For even AVX2, I think 2 (fast) cores per DDR4 channel is about the most it can feed. Implicitly for a 2-unit AVX-512 implementation, you'd want to look towards one channel per (fast) core. This is worst case (Prime95 like workloads) so others might get away with less.

 

Are you suggesting AMD might reach parity with consumer Intel in that department? That's been the biggest factor stopping me from building out AMD CPU systems in my personal farm. It could be a "goodbye Intel" moment for me if they did that, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

AVX512 benchmarking is still in its early days, and there are some wonky results. Mostly it seems like the lower core count Xeons stack up really well against much larger core count CPUs. On 6 channels, 12 cores might be the maximum that is useful. Or maybe even less. As we're lamenting, it's DDR5 tech. Maybe even DDR6.

 

On the AVX2 issue, AMD is going to balance what they feel their market is, what they can expand into and what it'll take up on the dies. AVX units aren't free. AVX512 are, relatively, massive units on the Core X/Xeon lines. That's part of the reason Intel's designs branched so far, along with the Mesh. AVX512 probably would have bandwidth starved the Ring in a lot of situations, and AVX512 operations probably aren't too friendly to the Mesh either. But, at 7nm for AMD, I would expect at least to match Intel for AVX2 units. (Probably 1 dedicate and 2 fuseable 128bit AVX units.) AMD would know why Sandy Bridge has stuck around so long and AVX has a lot to do with it.

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1 hour ago, Morgan MLGman said:

I doubt any of those will happen, for the APUs it's hard to fit more than one CCX (4 cores) on one CPU because of the large Vega iGPU on it. For mainstream CPUs, how would the core configuration look like? 3 CCX modules? I doubt that's a technically viable option for AMD...

Do you think a better VRAM solution could ever happen for the APUs? I'm kinda curious what difference it would make in games for even the current APUs to have access to some kind of GDDR or HBM whether it be built into the APU package or as a module on the motherboard. Or at the very least maybe Zen 3 will use a new DDR5 system RAM with some theoretical better bandwidth.

 

As much as nVIDIA wants to market anything below 400 dollars as "low end" my RX 460 still treats me well and the minimalist in me would love to see a 65W part replace my current system.

 

If I had to upgrade my system right now though I'd try to keep my RX 460 because it's still awesome and has 4GB of VRAM and replace the CPU with the R5 2600 because it's so cheap right now at ~150 USD. But it is only going to get cheaper the closer we get to R5 3500 being available, and who knows, maybe I can keep holding out for that CPU to be 150 USD lol. I hate it, but I keep telling myself "just keep waiting, my system still works fine"

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