FTC Says 'Warranty Void If Removed' Stickers Are Bullshit, Warns Manufacturers They're Breaking the Law

[brighttail]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Disassembly of a product, such as a gfx card, is not required to clean it. If you think it is, you're doing it wrong.

If the thermal paste needs to be changed within the warranty period, the manufacturer is at fault. Because the die is exposed, it's open to take damage that would be the fault of the user. It isn't built like a tank, so it's not the manufacturer's responcibility to repair it after that point either.

Honestly don't you watch this channel?  The thermal paste put on by many GPU manufacturers is garbage. You can get much better temps if you use a better quality paste.  As for cleaning once again do you watch this channel?  Dust can get everywhere, even with blowing out using an air compressor or air duster, some people may wish to clean it better once again to help temps, especially if they have a lot of dust in the house.

 

The point is there are certain maintenance that should be allowed. Heck on a laptop, do you have the right to upgrade a laptop with more ram, different ram?  Last I checked MSI, Dell, Microsoft doesn't have a service that does this.  Sure they allow you to lets say go from 8gb to 16gb by adding two more modules in an easy to access area, but if the user wants to go from 8 to 64, meaning they have to go under the motherboard remove the two 4GB dimms and add two 8GB dimms, those manufacturers don't have that service.  If they do, then yes, the warranty is in play.  If they don't this ruling says the user has that right to do so and the manufacturer cannot void the warranty because they don't offer the service.

 

What I can honestly see happening is a bunch of manufacturers start allowing these types of upgrades, changing of thermal paste, ect to their electronics, provided IF you get it done at a licensed dealer. Then they will charge places like GEEK Squad money to get their techs, MSI CERTIFIED or DELL CERTIFIED, ect.

[Drak3]

51 minutes ago, brighttail said:

Honestly don't you watch this channel?

Not anymore. Half of the information they provide is outright wrong.

 

51 minutes ago, brighttail said:

The thermal paste put on by many GPU manufacturers is garbage.

If you're looking for the lowest temps. But it'll do its job for the lifetime of the warranty. If you replace it, the issues that crop up should be on you and you alone.

 

52 minutes ago, brighttail said:

ust can get everywhere, even with blowing out using an air compressor or air duster, some people may wish to clean it better once again to help temps, especially if they have a lot of dust in the house.

Again, if you think you need to take apart these products to clean them, you're doing it wrong. This is coming from someone that cleans their system every few months.

 

54 minutes ago, brighttail said:

The point is there are certain maintenance that should be allowed.

If at any point the user is taking apart the product beyond what the manufacturer includes documentation for, they've decided to forgo the warranty and that arising issues are their fault and that they're responsible.

 

I don't expect Browning to honor their warranty after I took apart the grip assembly on my Buckmark. I don't expect Dodge to honor their warranty after I get my engine swapped by the local shop down the road. So, I don't expect MSi to RMA either of my GPUs should I ever decide to take them apart.

Because I've made the decision that I'm responsible from this point forward. I can replace a pistol. I've got a spare truck. I can afford to replace my GPUs. If you can't, that's on you.

[Blademaster91]

22 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Not anymore. Half of the information they provide is outright wrong.

If you're looking for the lowest temps. But it'll do its job for the lifetime of the warranty. If you replace it, the issues that crop up should be on you and you alone.

Again, if you think you need to take apart these products to clean them, you're doing it wrong. This is coming from someone that cleans their system every few months.

If at any point the user is taking apart the product beyond what the manufacturer includes documentation for, they've decided to forgo the warranty and that arising issues are their fault and that they're responsible.

I don't expect Browning to honor their warranty after I took apart the grip assembly on my Buckmark. I don't expect Dodge to honor their warranty after I get my engine swapped by the local shop down the road. So, I don't expect MSi to RMA either of my GPUs should I ever decide to take them apart.

Because I've made the decision that I'm responsible from this point forward. I can replace a pistol. I've got a spare truck. I can afford to replace my GPUs. If you can't, that's on you.

I think most people that even know how to change thermal paste are knowing what they're doing,sure there is going to be a few that are gonna brick their GPU by stuff like over tightening the cooler but certain maintenance should be allowed. Companies like MSI and Asus using "warranty void" stickers on GPUs is why I wont buy their products,though i've heard plenty of stories of them denying warranty even if the sticker is intact.  Changing the crap stock paste is more like being able to disassemble your pistol for cleaning or changing your engine oil or your tires.

[brighttail]

Again I think you are missing the entire point of the whole article.  I will try once more and I'm done with you.  It is allowed for you as the user to maintain and even upgrade your components.  The problem that the businesses have is that some people do it wrong and the manufacturer has no way of knowing if a user in the process of doing something to upgrade, damaged the card.  I agree that if a user messes up something, that the manufacturer should not be liable.  Unfortunately the manufacturer's solution to this were the stickers, thus voiding all warrantys if they were removed and thus disallowing all users to legally update or use 3rd party companies to fix THEIR products or it would void the warranty.  A keen example would be APPLE.  Apple would charge someone $700 to fix various errors in their laptops.  3rd party commercial computer stores found they could do the same for $50. Apple was basically overcharging the user for a cheap fix and voiding the warranty if someone tried.  The commission ruled that this blanket voiding of warranty is illegal.

 

The commission would agree with you that if a user makes a mistake the user should be held responsible, but it declares that the solution cannot be a blanket all or nothing approach.  Thus it has instructed these companies to find a more middle ground for people who want to upgrade, maintain or legally repair their items and want to still retain the warranty.  The commission stated that unless the manufacture offers the aforementioned for free, then the company cannot void the warranty if a person decides to do it on their own or takes it to a third party.  It further stated that if the companies do not come up with the new guidelines on its own, the commission would.

 

Bottom line, if I want to upgrade, change the thermal paste or do any other minor repair that someone other the manufacturer can do and the manufacturer doesn't offer to do it free under warranty, the manufacturer cannot void the warranty.  So unless MSI, Asus and other GPU manufactures offers a service to change the Thermal compound or unless laptop manufacturers offers me the option to upgrade to more memory or a new CPU, then I can do so without voiding the warranty.  Manufacturers are going to have to find a middle ground that takes into account all of these things, including aftermarket watercooling.

 

All that being said, yes if there is evidence that I knocked a capacitor off while trying to change thermal compound, the warranty will be voided. But if that card is working for months after and suddenly dies and there is no direct evidence to what I did, the manufacturer cannot automatically deny the warranty.  There is  your lesson in tort law and the decision of this commission.  Enjoy.

[Drak3]

7 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Changing the crap stock paste is more like being able to disassemble your pistol for cleaning or changing your engine oil.

Yeah I don't really expect the general population to be able to do either of those things either.

 

6 minutes ago, brighttail said:

It is allowed for you as the user to maintain and even upgrade your components.

Unless you're dealing with John Deere, you've got the right to do that and companies aren't actively persuing action against you for practicing that right. Sucks that technology isn't as easy to work on anymore, but that's also a consequence of technological progression and what the market overall wants.

 

But you waive your warranty once you decide to take this up in your own hands.

 

[brighttail]

3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Yeah I don't really expect the general population to be able to do either of those things either.

 

Unless you're dealing with John Deere, you've got the right to do that and companies aren't actively persuing action against you for practicing that right. Sucks that technology isn't as easy to work on anymore, but that's also a consequence of technological progression and what the market overall wants.

 

But you waive your warranty once you decide to take this up in your own hands.

 

Welp John Deere is going to have to make changes as well  unless they get a waiver from the commission and I absolutely believe there are going to be big companies like Apple who will grease somoene's palms and get that waiver.

Once again, that is what manufacturers want you to believe.  That is how they have been acting but that is NOT how the actual act/law reads.  The law states just the opposite that the owner HAS these rights.  The companies have been trying to get around that with stickers and the fact that most people won't take them to court over a 500 dollar GPU 5000 dollar tractor.  The commission is telling the companies to stop it, they are in the wrong and if they don't make changes to their policies, the commission will.  I'm looking forward to the new warranties.

[Drak3]

Just now, brighttail said:

Once again, that is what manufacturers want you to believe.  That is how they have been acting but that is NOT how the actual act/law reads.

I don't care about what the law reads. I disagree with this law. Having been on both sides of the fence, I agree with manufacturers that they should not be responsible for someone else deliberately running the risk of damaging a product.

 

3 minutes ago, brighttail said:

they are in the wrong

Only in the eyes of the law and the eyes of stupid consumers.

 

3 minutes ago, brighttail said:

I'm looking forward to the new warranties.

I'm not. I don't look forward to the increased prices I'll have to pay for other people and their stupidity.

[brighttail]

9 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

I don't care about what the law reads. I disagree with this law. Having been on both sides of the fence, I agree with manufacturers that they should not be responsible for someone else deliberately running the risk of damaging a product.

 

Only in the eyes of the law and the eyes of stupid consumers.

 

I'm not. I don't look forward to the increased prices I'll have to pay for other people and their stupidity.

All these years, companies like Apple have been cheating their users out of boat loads of money for outrageous repair bills just to keep their proprietary information secret.  There is a reason why manufacturers like Dell, HP, Compaq all tried proprietary systems.  Only Their RAM, their battery, their Hard drives would work in their systems. You wanted to upgrade you had to pay triple the price of a normal hard drive. You wanted a repair, you paid triple the normal amount.  All those companies stopped that practice when industry standards came about.  I dislike companies that fleece their customers unnecessarily only for more money.   I agree 100% if the user messes up the company shouldn't be on the hook, but to try to use a little thing like a sticker to take away the rights of a consumer is unfair practice and whether you agree with it against the law.  If a company increases their prices for this, there will be other companies willing to step up in their place and not charge people for it.   That is how the market goes.

 

Out of curiosity if you don't watch this channel or care what they have to say cause everyone is wrong, why the heck are you even here?  Either way I'm done.. Toodles. 

[divito]

Essentially, I think all this will do is increase the cost of products and subsequent services to counter all the user-serviced items being sent in for warranty work. That, or a shrinking of warranty times.

[79wjd]

Quote

You wanted to upgrade you had to pay triple the price of a normal hard drive.

 

All those companies stopped that practice when industry standards came about.  I dislike companies that fleece their customers unnecessarily only for more money.  

Those industry standards you speak of don't seem to have stopped Dell (or any manufacturer for that matter) -- they pretty much all up-charge for upgrades.

 

+$150 to go from a 250gb SSD to a 500gb SSD from Dell.

+$80 if you do it yourself.

 

Apple's upgrade might cost a bit more, but let's not pretend that the entire industry doesn't do the same thing.

 

Out of warranty repair costs are Apple's biggest problem -- and that stems from the fact that they replace the entire motherboard if there's a problem rather than fixing it.

[Mira Yurizaki]

15 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

+$150 to go from a 250gb SSD to a 500gb SSD from Dell.

 

+$80 if you do it yourself.

What really cracks me up is the "Expert installation" Amazon provides. As of this post, they're asking $115 to install an SSD.

[Drak3]

4 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

As of this post, they're asking $115 to install an SSD.

All I could think of as I read this:

 

 

[divito]

20 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Those industry standards you speak of don't seem to have stopped Dell (or any manufacturer for that matter) -- they pretty much all up-charge for upgrades.

 

+$150 to go from a 250gb SSD to a 500gb SSD from Dell.

+$80 if you do it yourself.

 

Apple's upgrade might cost a bit more, but let's not pretend that the entire industry doesn't do the same thing.

 

Out of warranty repair costs are Apple's biggest problem -- and that stems from the fact that they replace the entire motherboard if there's a problem rather than fixing it.

If you get the config at the lower price, you're spending $200 for the upgrade instead of $150. Where are you getting $80?

[79wjd]

2 minutes ago, divito said:

If you get the config at the lower price, you're spending $200 for the upgrade instead of $150. Where are you getting $80?

The cost difference between a 500gb 960 and a 250gb 960.

[divito]

5 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

The cost difference between a 500gb 960 and a 250gb 960.

Ah, brain fart.

[Jito463]

20 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Iif I were a company and I was forced to service people who open their device, break it, and send it back to me and expect me to fix it without knowing what the hell they have done to it and being unable to rule out their hand in breaking the device.....I would not be very happy.

As one who works for a small computer builder, I have to concur with you.  My previous employer (who, interestingly, my current employer used to be part of) used to put warranty stickers on our new builds, but we no longer do that.  Not sure if there's a legal reason why, or just because we haven't bothered (probably the latter).

19 hours ago, Zodiark1593 said:

In all cases however, I would favor an " innocent until proven otherwise" approach be taken when it is at question as to whether or not the device was damaged by the customer/third-party. With warranty work, the warranty will cover the repairs unless there is definitive evidence of damage for reasons other than a defect or design fault. In the latter event, customer gets charged for repairs and diagnosis.

I can agree with that to a point.  The problem is, sometimes it's not so easy to determine.  A HDD could have been dropped, and not leave any physical exterior damage (and may not even show anything in the SMART logs).  A motherboard could have been shorted out due to the customer's actions, and leave no physical evidence behind.

46 minutes ago, divito said:

Ah, brain fart.

That's okay, it took me a moment of reading it over again for a few times, before it clicked for me.  It's not just you.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

6 hours ago, brighttail said:

How about the simple example of changing the thermal paste of a GPU.  That should be allowed.  That is like me changing the oil in a car, and yet you break that seal, many GPu makers won't honor their warranty.

User doesn't tighten the cooler enough, cooler doesn't make good enough contact to work effectively, the GPU gets fried. Guess what? People are going to say it's a defect but in reality, you just skewed up. For you it may be simple. But just remember, these are in place because one day, little 8 year old Johnny will wake up and think he can replace the thermal compound for a 500 dollar GPU himself. What could go wrong? 

[79wjd]

25 minutes ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

User doesn't tighten the cooler enough, cooler doesn't make good enough contact to work effectively, the GPU gets fried. Guess what? People are going to say it's a defect but in reality, you just skewed up. For you it may be simple. But just remember, these are in place because one day, little 8 year old Johnny will wake up and think he can replace the thermal compound for a 500 dollar GPU himself. What could go wrong? 

Literally did something like that when I was ten or so. I had to replace the CPU cooler on my computer and it was effectively glued to the CPU so well that it ripped the CPU out of the socket (it was Socket 939 -- so PGA) and in the process it bent EVERY. SINGLE. PIN. Luckily it was fixable (with some effort), but nonetheless a stupid mistake caused by something as simple as removing a cpu cooler.

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

5 hours ago, djdwosk97 said:

Literally did something like that when I was ten or so. I had to replace the CPU cooler on my computer and it was effectively glued to the CPU so well that it ripped the CPU out of the socket (it was Socket 939 -- so PGA) and in the process it bent EVERY. SINGLE. PIN. Luckily it was fixable (with some effort), but nonetheless a stupid mistake caused by something as simple as removing a cpu cooler.

That was me when I was 18 or something.

 

*Removes socket 478 heatsink*

Where's the chip?

*Chip falls into the PCI slot*

Oh there it is. 

[anotherriddle]

On 11.4.2018 at 6:51 AM, DrMacintosh said:

I'm going to go against the tide here again. 

 

if I were a company and I was forced to service people who open their device, break it, and send it back to me and expect me to fix it without knowing what the hell they have done to it and being unable to rule out their hand in breaking the device.....I would not be very happy. 

 

Not so sure how I feel about this. 

just bringing up some points:

• Many times you can still proof that a device was not destroyed by a normal failure mode but by inadequate opening, breaking a connector on the inside or something similar it is "just" harder. (I know, a weak argument)
• When you are selling tens or hundrets of thousands of products the few cases where people break something by repairing it, barely makes any difference. At that point it already was broken and had to be repaired or replaced by the manufacturer. Even if there is now more that needs to be repaired, most electronics manufacturers (especially Apple) already just replace an entire board or subassembly even if it could be easily repaired. Essentially it is barely any extra cost for the manufacturer.
• Only a small number of people really open a device and repair it themeselves. This regulation is mostely good for independent repair shops.

just some hopes and dreams of mine:

In the end I think it is also important that electronics devices are built to be more easily repairable (where feasible) in the first place and that repair manuals are available (like in the "good old days"^TM). The problem is that manufacturers rarely have interest in this because they think they can make more money otherwise. I do not believe they are right, especially in the fast moving consumer electronics industry where mobile phones and laptops "become obsolete" in a short span of time anyway. In some cases there is a trade of between better repairability and quality or functionality but I do think that the battery of electronics devices as well as moving parts like fans in a laptop should be easily servicable. Also, coatings to make electronics water resistant are comparatively cheap, no reason not to use them.

[Ryujin2003]

So, I think this can definitely be good. Many people can feel comfortable with basic upgrades or repairs without voiding their warrant. Like the sticker covering up one screw hole on a device that I can upgrade my SSD with... Except in doing so, I void my warranty... Stupid.

 

For things like hardware repairs, like new screens and such, those are generally easy to figure out with many devices. Many of these, especially for Apple, are serialized. So doing a repair, we can often see if the hardware in it is original or replaced by the user. In Apple's case, they void the warranty by having work done on a non Apple Certified repair center anyways. You take your phone apart to replace the battery and the screen never comes back on.. well, is ready to see if your device has every been opened. Unless it was done at a certified location, Apple will refuse to repair. Also, Apples policy is to refuse to repair any device that doesn't have the default manufacturer hardware (aside from storage). A fake Chinese screen? Apple warranty is gone.

 

Not sure if this new policy or stance will change any of this, consumers should be able to do simple repairs or upgrades, while the manufacturer should still be able to protect against abuse. RAM died, I should be able to fix it. But if in the process of fixing it, I break something? I shouldn't be able to force the manufacturer to repair under warranty.

[asus killer]

i think those stickers and "can't open" rules shouldn't exist. It should be up to the owner not to destroy the product. But it also should be up to him if he wants to open it for whatever reason, clean, put better thermal paste, etc... Then it's up to the company to decide if the user done any damage or not like they decide even in cases that there is no opening of the product, i really can't see the difference.

If for example the repair is simple (or the user is DIY savvy) and the owner can avoid dealing with warranty why shouldn't he be able to do it and still keep the warranty?

Delidding is a good example that this is a stupid rule. Why shouldn't we be able to do it? It's up to Intel to decide then if the process damage the CPU or not in case of warranty claim.

 

Kudos for the US, good decision.

 

Anyone knows how this works in the EU?

[Drak3]

3 minutes ago, asus killer said:

If for example the repair is simple (or the user is DIY savvy) and the owner can avoid dealing with warranty why shouldn't he be able to do it and still keep the warranty?

Because he decided to take the repair, and thus the responsibility of repair, upon himself, relieving the manufacturer of that responsibility.

 

5 minutes ago, asus killer said:

Kudos for the US, good decision.

Fuck the FTC, this is the wrong decision.

[Blademaster91]

22 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Because he decided to take the repair, and thus the responsibility of repair, upon himself, relieving the manufacturer of that responsibility.

 

Yet with GPU's most manufacturers aren't going to take on the cost of replacing your thermal paste anyway,and have the excuse of blaming it on the customer instead. But screw the FTC for fighting anti-consumer bs, and assuming everyone is too stupid to perform their own maintenance is as much generalization as stickers over screws.

[Drak3]

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Yet with GPU's most manufacturers aren't going to take on the cost of replacing your thermal paste anyway,and have the excuse of blaming it on the customer instead.

A warranty claim costs more than the price of material. Quite a bit more.