Programmers Lounge

[straight_stewie]

On 2/20/2018 at 5:50 PM, M.Yurizaki said:

Also @Willi, read up as much as you can about programming concepts. It's not so much what language you know but rather how much you know in general. I mean, sure you should know some languages and their quirks because that's what people use, but I learned much more about how to program and design my applications through reading about the subject in general than look at someone's code (after all, poorly written code would only promote bad habits).

I would argue that one should have gone through the beginner stages with a C like language before really digging deep into the generalized computer science stuff. Most of the examples are written in such a language, so it makes it much easier to follow if you are very familiar with it. 

[FreeDev]

@M.Yurizaki It definitely depends though, when you really get down to it into low level development, you have to contend with bad code in order to make sense out of something that are generally aren't documented anywhere on the Internet. Such examples are the graphic stack on Linux aka the EGL/KMS/DRM which involves the use of IOCTL to mode set the monitor and allocate graphic buffer and so forth and of course, you have to contend with Wayland protocol which is just.... godawful to try and make sense out of which fortunately one Chinese documentation make it clear enough for you to implement it when trying to write your own Windows Manager on Linux.

 

You could get pretty far with knowing the general computer science nowaday, but to really strive as a programmer, you have to get to know the programming ecosystem and understand/comprehend the limitations with those and be able to work around them.

[HunterAP]

How often do you guys utilize multiple languages into one project? I recently wrote something in Windows Batch (not really a coding language), and decided to write a Python program to run that batch script, handle errors, and log everything, and run other batch scripts in sequence. I couldn't dp the specific function I wanted in Python directly anyways, and I had already written the batch script prior to writing the python program.

 

But do people do something like this with multiple languages in the back-end exclusively? I don't mean for two languages to work together to handle back-end to front-end stuff, not for web applications where one language does the front-end and the other does the back-end: I'm asking if people specifically use multiple languages in conjunction for a back-end application.

[cluelessgenius]

34 minutes ago, HunterAP said:

How often do you guys utilize multiple languages into one project? I recently wrote something in Windows Batch (not really a coding language), and decided to write a Python program to run that batch script, handle errors, and log everything, and run other batch scripts in sequence. I couldn't dp the specific function I wanted in Python directly anyways, and I had already written the batch script prior to writing the python program.

 

But do people do something like this with multiple languages in the back-end exclusively? I don't mean for two languages to work together to handle back-end to front-end stuff, not for web applications where one language does the front-end and the other does the back-end: I'm asking if people specifically use multiple languages in conjunction for a back-end application.

well all the time personally but that depends what classifies as language. but for example uwp takes xaml for the ui and c# for the backend and then maybe you have sql for the data storage or maybe you just serialize and save it so you might need json or xml. and then maybe you have interfaces with other services

[straight_stewie]

53 minutes ago, HunterAP said:

But do people do something like this with multiple languages in the back-end exclusively? I don't mean for two languages to work together to handle back-end to front-end stuff, not for web applications where one language does the front-end and the other does the back-end: I'm asking if people specifically use multiple languages in conjunction for a back-end application.

 

15 minutes ago, cluelessgenius said:

well all the time personally but that depends what classifies as language. but for example uwp takes xaml for the ui and c# for the backend and then maybe you have sql for the data storage or maybe you just serialize and save it so you might need json or xml. and then maybe you have interfaces with other services

Just to be stupid for a moment, every program inherently takes atleast two languages (unless you're manually writing machine code). So, in a way, every program not written in machine language is using at minimum two languages. 

[cluelessgenius]

53 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

 

Just to be stupid for a moment, every program inherently takes atleast two languages (unless you're manually writing machine code). So, in a way, every program not written in machine language is using at minimum two languages. 

well i would argue that you as a developer dont have to know 2 languages though. (realisticly way more to be effecient at any job) you could write a c# console program which would only reqiure you as the developer to know c#.

[HunterAP]

11 hours ago, cluelessgenius said:

well all the time personally but that depends what classifies as language. but for example uwp takes xaml for the ui and c# for the backend and then maybe you have sql for the data storage or maybe you just serialize and save it so you might need json or xml. and then maybe you have interfaces with other services

 

10 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

 

Just to be stupid for a moment, every program inherently takes atleast two languages (unless you're manually writing machine code). So, in a way, every program not written in machine language is using at minimum two languages. 

I'm talking about coding languages specifically, like a C# and a Python program communicating to one another or one program using the other as a subprocess. Is it common to see this happen, like when one language has a functionality that either the second language lacks, or the second language is harder to implement/write than it would be to do in the first language?

 

The most experience I have with this was an internship where the backend of the program was Scala, the frontend was JavaScript, and they also used regular Java for some things that Scala was more difficult to do in or that Java did faster.

[straight_stewie]

3 minutes ago, HunterAP said:

The most experience I have with this was an internship where the backend of the program was Scala, the frontend was JavaScript, and they also used regular Java for some things that Scala was more difficult to do in or that Java did faster.

If you consider a website as "one program" then virtually every *useful* website does this. 

And, for the record, assembly is a "coding language", even when you don't include advanced assembly/linker directives or any macro language.

[HunterAP]

2 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

If you consider a website as "one program" then virtually every *useful* website does this. 

And, for the record, assembly is a "coding language", even when you don't include advanced assembly/linker directives or any macro language.

Yes, assembly is a coding language, but you don't see most developers code in it natively when they use a higher level language alongside it. You don't normally see a C program call an external binary executable that was made in assembly, I figure you'd see assembly written inline within the C program more often than the former option.

[cluelessgenius]

anyone interessted in helping me get some progres on a c# project of mine?

ALFHEIM its called and im basically trying to combine asus aura, philips hue app, corsair link, g.skill.....you get the point its for controlling all the light in your appartment in one place instead of having 20 different tools from each oem. link is in my signature.

 

[cluelessgenius]

so im thinking about picking up c++ so i can use Qt on my raspberry. any tips on where to start?

[riklaunim]

On 26.06.2018 at 3:12 PM, cluelessgenius said:

so im thinking about picking up c++ so i can use Qt on my raspberry. any tips on where to start?

You can use Qt from many languages, even Raspberry popular Python. As for C++ vanilla Qt there are books (just pick if it's based on a very recent Qt version), their documentation and class reference is really really good, as well there is a lot of tutorials on the web. Their blog http://blog.qt.io/  is also handy.

[Wildstingray]

On 6/6/2018 at 2:29 AM, cluelessgenius said:

anyone interessted in helping me get some progres on a c# project of mine?

ALFHEIM its called and im basically trying to combine asus aura, philips hue app, corsair link, g.skill.....you get the point its for controlling all the light in your appartment in one place instead of having 20 different tools from each oem. link is in my signature.

 

I would be much more Impressed with this running C++. Not a big fan of c# even though I have written in a few occasions because of the microsoft's lock to running .net on windows. I know in the next post you mentioned Qt. That would be a great place to do it with Qt's frameworks supporting an absurd amount of cross-compatibility. Maybe google around as well, This is probably a pretty common idea with how popular it is so there might be people working on the same thing. You could link up with them, share ideas and help each other finish it.

[Mira Yurizaki]

On 7/19/2018 at 3:20 PM, Wildstingray said:

Not a big fan of c# even though I have written in a few occasions because of the microsoft's lock to running .net on windows.

There's Mono for OSes that don't have support for or don't want to support .NET. Though I'm not sure how much of a good replacement it is.

[wasab]

On 8/7/2018 at 10:47 AM, M.Yurizaki said:

There's Mono for OSes that don't have support for or don't want to support .NET. Though I'm not sure how much of a good replacement it is.

The day when Microsoft C# and .Net framework became synonymous with cross platform compatibility is also the day when hell will freeze over and entropy will overcome strong nuclear force and dissolve everything. 

[Mira Yurizaki]

2 hours ago, wasab said:

The day when Microsoft C# and .Net framework became synonymous with cross platform compatibility is also the day when hell will freeze over and entropy will overcome strong nuclear force and dissolve everything. 

.NET itself isn't going to break out of Microsoft platforms because it's Microsoft's implementation of CLI. For everyone else, there's Mono and other implementations of CLI. C# can be considered the language for CLI, which I should point out that C# has both an ISO and ECMA number.

 

Meaning anyone can develop an app in C# without licesening from Microsoft and they can run it on any platform that supports either .NET, Mono, or some other CLI implementation. Unity is an example of this, it uses C# that runs on Mono (I believe)

 

As a side example of this idea, when Oracle sued Google, they didn't sue them for using the Java programming language. They sued them because Oracle thought Google blatantly copied the JVM implementation even though Google made their own Java runtime implementation.

 

EDIT: Part of becoming a standard means submitting the technology to this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing

Edited August 16, 2018 by M.Yurizaki

[wasab]

2 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

.NET itself isn't going to break out of Microsoft platforms because it's Microsoft's implementation of CLI. For everyone else, there's Mono and other implementations of CLI. C# can be considered the language for CLI, which I should point out that C# has both an ISO and ECMA number.

 

Meaning anyone can develop an app in C# without licesening from Microsoft and they can run it on any platform that supports either .NET, Mono, or some other CLI implementation. Unity is an example of this, it uses C# that runs on Mono (I believe)

 

As a side example of this idea, when Oracle sued Google, they didn't sue them for using the Java programming language. They sued them because Oracle thought Google blatantly copied the JVM implementation even though Google made their own Java runtime implementation.

 

EDIT: Part of becoming a standard means submitting the technology to this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing

.net frameork is just a knock off java. Its class library mirrors java standard api and its CLR is just a mediocre java style virtual machine that so far supports Windows only. JVM and JDK has versions in nearly all platforms. BSD, Linux, Windows ect. There is mono but that is open sourced. The propietary .net is still Windows only. 

 

Crossplatform is meaningless if app can be ported easily. Using cross platform API like qt for example allows developers to cross compile. Porting an app to and from winodws will then just be a matter of finding the right C++ complier for the platform and compiling. No code rewrite needed.

 

[Mira Yurizaki]

25 minutes ago, wasab said:

.net frameork is just a knock off java. Its class library mirrors java standard api and its CLR is just a mediocre java style virtual machine that so far supports Windows only. JVM and JDK has versions in nearly all platforms. BSD, Linux, Windows ect. There is mono but that is open sourced. The propietary .net is still Windows only. 

The .NET framework isn't a programming language so I don't understand why you're comparing it to one.

 

But then again, I don't seem to understand your original post anymore other than you just wanted to shit on Microsoft. At which case I don't really see a point in continuing this discussion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[wasab]

10 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

The .NET framework isn't a programming language so I don't understand why you're comparing it to one.

 

But then again, I don't seem to understand your original post anymore other than you just wanted to shit on Microsoft. At which case I don't really see a point in continuing this discussion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

.net is a framework. Java is a programming language but ALSO a framework. Java has JRE(java runtime environment) which contains the java virtual machine. .net had the common langauge runtime which contains it's own virtual machine. So how can I not compare the two? 

 

I said .net is Windows only and is meant for Windows only. It's main feature is to allow the ability to compile several langauges to MSIL wherears that java JRE compiles only the java porgramming lanagugae to byetecode (although anyone can write their own compiler to compile other langauges, see Jython) but with corss platform capability in mind.

To say .net can become as main stream as java Enterprise on none Windows platform is silly.

 

[Franck]

On 8/16/2018 at 10:48 AM, wasab said:

.net is a framework. Java is a programming language but ALSO a framework. Java has JRE(java runtime environment) which contains the java virtual machine. .net had the common langauge runtime which contains it's own virtual machine. So how can I not compare the two? 

 

I said .net is Windows only and is meant for Windows only. It's main feature is to allow the ability to compile several langauges to MSIL wherears that java JRE compiles only the java porgramming lanagugae to byetecode (although anyone can write their own compiler to compile other langauges, see Jython) but with corss platform capability in mind.

To say .net can become as main stream as java Enterprise on none Windows platform is silly.

 

That's true, .net framework is windows only when it come to runtime.

But the users can be cross platform. Most clients request web applications these days and ASP.net can feed virtually any devices.

 

If you code simple apps, sometime you can only open up Mono or Xamarin to add the classes from the .net framework project and compile for cross platform. Especially libraries. Interface that's another story. I even had c# code librairies we brought over to Java and all we had to do is mass find replace of "string" to "String".

 

I personally love both language and still use both daily. .Net is more complicated for setting cross platform but Java is more complicated when it comes to UI.

[Dat Guy]

I am currently evaluating the TECO text editor and I am amazed: it even outperforms ed in terms of speed and resource usage. And someone wrote a visual version of it. Nice!

[Gophyr]

14 hours ago, Dat Guy said:

I am currently evaluating the TECO text editor and I am amazed: it even outperforms ed in terms of speed and resource usage. And someone wrote a visual version of it. Nice!

If you like TECO, then you should check out Emacs.  It was originally written entirely in TECO macros.

[Dat Guy]

Emacs has been my default IDE since 2013. But there's no TECO left in the GNU version. 

[Gophyr]

9 hours ago, Dat Guy said:

Emacs has been my default IDE since 2013. But there's no TECO left in the GNU version. 

Indeed.  I had no idea that TECO still existed in any modern capacity, though.

[Dat Guy]

You're welcome!