Aptera 3-wheeled Star Trek car may finally become a reality

[rcmaehl]

Current issues:

 

Physical mirrors are still required
Batteries go where? (Hood? Where does cargo go)

Must survive NHTSA crash tests (although they MIGHT be able to get it tested as a motorcycle instead of a car)

[danwat1234]

Government requirement is just to motorcycle safety but Aptera will test to automotive safety. Physical mirrors, not sure if required for motorcycles still, not sure. If you look in the picture, battery is under the floor and curves with the body to behind the seat, depending on KWh battery pack sizing you order. 

Storage is behind the seat, It has a hatch. No frunk. 

 

If I ever buy one I'll test it on the ice / light snow in an empty parking lot with dashcam video. Wheel skirts need to not go as low, shouldn't be lower than the typical small car's front bumper IMO. Ho ho ho. It's a 3D render of a prototype. They are raising money to make prototypes. Lots of room for changes/improvements. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, rcmaehl said:

Current issues:

 

Physical mirrors are still required
Batteries go where? (Hood? Where does cargo go)

Must survive NHTSA crash tests (although they MIGHT be able to get it tested as a motorcycle instead of a car)

Mirrors is an interesting one. Nissan, Mercedes and Audi all have EVs coming out either later this year or next with no physical mirrors. So I am not sure that they must be present in all locales.

 

Batteries can make up the chassis, they do in many EVs. I am sure locating those will not be an issue.

 

Safety issues may be fine. Until the final designs are seen who can tell if they will pass NCAP or NHTSA testing. Don't forget there are cars you would think are safe but have only 1 star safety ratings, such as the new Wrangler from JEEP.

[suicidalfranco]

meh

[Monkey Dust]

20 hours ago, WereCatf said:

You're welcome to come and prove that claim in a few months when everything is covered in a thick sheet of ice and snow.

Are electric cars any good in snow and ice anyway? Since their motors are either off, or producing max torque, and there is no gearbox you allow you to reduce the torque to the wheels, don't they suffer severe traction issues on the slippery stuff?

[Tech Enthusiast]

That thing is gonna kill you, if a real car crashes into you.

 

No thanks. Ill stick to real cars with real metal all around me to protect from impacts. 

I'll gladly take the lesser efficiency for a higher life expectancy.

 

[Fnige]

4 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

*picture*

meh

Quack?

[danwat1234]

3 hours ago, Monkey Dust said:

Are electric cars any good in snow and ice anyway? Since their motors are either off, or producing max torque, and there is no gearbox you allow you to reduce the torque to the wheels, don't they suffer severe traction issues on the slippery stuff?

Umm, this is surprising. This is a tech site. With your idea, how does an electric car drive around in the city without dangerously accelerating every time? Transmission in regular cars is there because Internal Combustion Engines have severe HP/torque curves.  Just watch these videos.

 

 

[danwat1234]

3 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

That thing is gonna kill you, if a real car crashes into you.

 

No thanks. Ill stick to real cars with real metal all around me to protect from impacts. 

I'll gladly take the lesser efficiency for a higher life expectancy.

 

Aptera is a light weight vehicle but does have a front crumple zone, multiple air bags and the shell is strong. 1800 pounds at 60KWh capacity level is light weight for sure. Around the weight of a Smart car. There was some video online of a fork lift running into an empty chassis against a concrete wall, I can't find it anymore. 

 

 

[Technous285]

Having one of these in FWD would make sense in that you're not trying to put driving traction through a rear wheel that is otherwise lined up with the grease/oil slick in the centre of each lane (due to where engine placement usually is in-line with the centre axis of the car, and thus will drip onto the road in the middle between the tyres).

Though having one in AWD would still provide extra traction for if driving on unsealed surfaces such as dirt roads often enough.

 

As for snow: Only need to deal with that stuff up in the Snowy's on the Great Dividing Range here in 'Straya, it's basically impossible to find otherwise. RAIN on the other hand might pose a problem in the more rural farmlands areas during and after storms (blowing in from the Bite).

 

Personally; if it could get around 450 km trips between recharge cycles, that'd put it within half the range of a 2003 Nissan X-Trail Ti as a 225 km round trip (such as my commute into, around and home from Wagga) is roughly a quarter-tank of petrol (or about 15L of the 60L tank & piping), which would make it tempting to use as a semi-daily driver  as it'd always have about half the battery left charged by the end of the day and it's less of an aging load recharging a battery from 50% charge to 100% charge than it is going from near-flat to 100% (like, for the Li-Ion batteries of phones and such, 5 cycles of charging from 70% to 100% is the same aging stress as a full recharge from dead-flat, whilst netting you 50% more relatively useful charge).

[Energycore]

23 hours ago, williamcll said:

Yes but is it going to come cheap?

My over/under on the price is $80k

[TempestCatto]

Reliant Robin comes to mind. Let's go to Sir (he deserves it) Jeremy Clarkson just to show you how well a three wheeled vehicle really is - after this segway to our sponsor, Madrinas Coffee! Check out the Madrinas Coffee and LTT specialty crafted coffee - the LTT Vanilla Cold Brew, which is a limited time offer, before everyone else drinks it! Check the link below, to get yours today: https://madrinascoffee.com/pages/linus

 

[Monkey Dust]

6 hours ago, danwat1234 said:

Umm, this is surprising. This is a tech site. With your idea, how does an electric car drive around in the city without dangerously accelerating every time? Transmission in regular cars is there because Internal Combustion Engines have severe HP/torque curves.  Just watch these videos.

 

 

They do it without accelerating dangerously because they control their motors RPM, which is what determines how fast it goes. Torque and power are not the same things. Internal combustion engines don't have severe torque curves, some of the large turbocharged engines aside, they have gears because they have a relatively narrow band of peak torque and efficiency. The gears are to match the desired road speed to the desired RPM. 

 

And that M3 did appear to be struggling to get up that gentle slope, but in fairness we don't know what tyres it was on. If it was on summer tyres it did pretty well, if it was on winters it was a bit rubbish.

 

 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Monkey Dust said:

They do it without accelerating dangerously because they control their motors RPM, which is what determines how fast it goes. Torque and power are not the same things. Internal combustion engines don't have severe torque curves, some of the large turbocharged engines aside, they have gears because they have a relatively narrow band of peak torque and efficiency. The gears are to match the desired road speed to the desired RPM. 

 

And that M3 did appear to be struggling to get up that gentle slope, but in fairness we don't know what tyres it was on. If it was on summer tyres it did pretty well, if it was on winters it was a bit rubbish.

 

 

That's not quite how it works.   An electric motor can be limited in it's ability to produce torque by simply limiting the current.   Reduced RPM is the by-product of producing less torque not the cause.

[TechyBen]

On 9/9/2019 at 2:35 AM, imreloadin said:

Just but a cockpit around one of these and you're good to go!

There are quite a few of those around here (Ok, I've seen 1, and a few of the more upright 3 wheels scooter style designs).

[TechyBen]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

That's not quite how it works.   An electric motor can be limited in it's ability to produce torque by simply limiting the current.   Reduced RPM is the by-product of producing less torque not the cause.

If you have a brushless motor, can you not change the speed of the stators too? So you can adapt current and polar switching.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, TechyBen said:

If you have a brushless motor, can you not change the speed of the stators too? So you can adapt current and polar switching.

yep, sorta (my understanding is a little different but I'll put that down to us just being rudimentary and not specific).

 

I think the confusion some people might be having is that electric motors are capable of proving full torque from zero RPM (baring the asynchronous motor which has a more unique torque/current/speed condition) as opposed to only being able to produce full torque regardless.

 

 

[TechyBen]

21 hours ago, rcmaehl said:

Current issues:

 

Physical mirrors are still required
Batteries go where? (Hood? Where does cargo go)

Must survive NHTSA crash tests (although they MIGHT be able to get it tested as a motorcycle instead of a car)

Batteries are shown under the seats.

[TechyBen]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

yep, sorta (my understanding is a little different but I'll put that down to us just being rudimentary and not specific).

 

I think the confusion some people might be having is that electric motors are capable of proving full torque from zero RPM (baring the asynchronous motor which has a more unique torque/current/speed condition) as opposed to only being able to produce full torque regardless.

 

 

Yeah. There are a LOT of things you can do with electric motors. Basically, if you put in the time/money effort, you can make an electric motor to match any need, within the limits of physics (power/weight/size limits). But for torque/speed/etc, you can usually match a requirement. Other types of engines may need gearings and other means.

 

I guess that's why a lot can be done computationally, for Teslas/Quadcopters etc, as you can pulse the engine timings (on/off), the voltages (power input) and the stators/polar timings (speed of the magnetic switching).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor#Controller_implementations

Quote

A typical controller contains 3 bi-directional outputs (i.e., frequency controlled three phase output), which are controlled by a logic circuit. Simple controllers employ comparators to determine when the output phase should be advanced, while more advanced controllers employ a microcontroller to manage acceleration, control speed and fine-tune efficiency.

Still won't fix the 3 wheel balance problem.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, TechyBen said:

Yeah. There are a LOT of things you can do with electric motors. Basically, if you put in the time/money effort, you can make an electric motor to match any need, within the limits of physics (power/weight/size limits). But for torque/speed/etc, you can usually match a requirement. Other types of engines may need gearings and other means.

 

I guess that's why a lot can be done computationally, for Teslas/Quadcopters etc, as you can pulse the engine timings (on/off), the voltages (power input) and the stators/polar timings (speed of the magnetic switching).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor#Controller_implementations

Agree

1 minute ago, TechyBen said:

Still won't fix the 3 wheel balance problem.

I don't think the problem is that bad.  Yes it isn't as stable as 4 wheels, but with two wheels at the front that far a part you have to turn rather very sharp corner at very high speed (relative to weight) in order for inertia to lift the vehicle over the front wheel.  The further apart those wheels the safer it is.   I am maintaining 2 and building 1 racing trikes for my sons school team.  They have the same wheel arrangement and the only reason they tip (if they do) is because the front wheels are only 600mm apart when the vehicle is 2 - 2.6 metres long (put jimmy big bones in the seat and you don't need much sideways inertia to tip him over).

[TechyBen]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Agree

I don't think the problem is that bad.  Yes it isn't as stable as 4 wheels, but with two wheels at the front that far a part you have to turn rather very sharp corner at very high speed (relative to weight) in order for inertia to lift the vehicle over the front wheel.  The further apart those wheels the safer it is.   I am maintaining 2 and building 1 racing trikes for my sons school team.  They have the same wheel arrangement and the only reason they tip (if they do) is because the front wheels are only 600mm apart when the vehicle is 2 - 2.6 metres long (put jimmy big bones in the seat and you don't need much sideways inertia to tip him over).

Yeah. I agere. As said, some of those scooters/carts around here with 3 wheels. No dents on them.

But seems most people have settled for the 2 wheel or 4 wheel. The size and mix limits. You get smaller 2 seat cars, but often for performance or convenience. The rest of the social and economical world won't really support this model of car.

 

Perhaps in some places, like island communities?

[Crowbar]

So, what's good about this exactly?

 

It's 100% impracticle.

[The King of the Undead]

Helloooooo hideous!

[FezBoy]

17 hours ago, Monkey Dust said:

Are electric cars any good in snow and ice anyway? Since their motors are either off, or producing max torque, and there is no gearbox you allow you to reduce the torque to the wheels, don't they suffer severe traction issues on the slippery stuff?

The great thing with electric motors is that their torque is variable. It's also instantly accessible, which means that when you punch the accelerator the motor goes to max torque really really fast.  These in combination make traction control much easier than in an ICE car, not the other way around.

 

A lack of torque variability is what makes a gearbox a requirement in an ICE car.

[Bananasplit_00]

I don't hate it, but I'd rather have a bike or a four wheeled car