Intel Confirms: Macs to switch to ARM by 2020.

Posted March 5, 2019

21 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

Yeah... basically a consumer focused ARM based mac is completely useless to anyone who wants to do anything more demanding.

Yes it would be, so why are you complaining as you would never buy one and it doesn't change anything for you?

I think you're imposing your reality onto the market that an ARM based Mac would be catering to which is not the reality of the people who would be interested in buying said ARM based Mac.

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Posted March 5, 2019

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Yeah, why would someone on the Internet lie? You have no reason to lie so therefore you can be blindly trusted. And like I said earlier, nobody working at HP can ever be wrong, so all the information you potentially has is 100% accurate.

Not a single one of the news on the first page of the news room is about ARM processors by the way.

I even went through some of the other articles and couldn't find it there either.

That's because the information is not public

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a backup 9̵̨̢̨̧̧̡̧̡̧̡̧̡̡̢̢̡̢̧̡̢̡̡̢̧̛̛̛̛̛̛̱̖͈̠̝̯̹͉̝̞̩̠̹̺̰̺̲̳͈̞̻̜̫̹̱̗̣͙̻̘͎̲̝͙͍͔̯̲̟̞͚̖̘͉̭̰̣͎͕̼̼̜̼͕͎̣͇͓͓͎̼̺̯͈̤̝͖̩̭͍̣̱̞̬̺̯̼̤̲͎̖̠̟͍̘̭͔̟̗̙̗̗̤̦͍̫̬͔̦̳̗̳͔̞̼̝͍̝͈̻͇̭̠͈̳͍̫̮̥̭͍͔͈̠̹̼̬̰͈̤͚̖̯͍͉͖̥̹̺͕̲̥̤̺̹̹̪̺̺̭͕͓̟̳̹͍̖͎̣̫͓͍͈͕̳̹̙̰͉͙̝̜̠̥̝̲̮̬͕̰̹̳͕̰̲̣̯̫̮͙̹̮͙̮̝̣͇̺̺͇̺̺͈̳̜̣̙̻̣̜̻̦͚̹̩͓͚̖͍̥̟͍͎̦͙̫̜͔̭̥͈̬̝̺̩͙͙͉̻̰̬̗̣͖̦͎̥̜̬̹͓͈͙̤̜̗͔̩̖̳̫̑̀̂̽̈́̈́̿͒̿̋̊͌̾̄̄̒̌͐̽̿̊͑̑̆͗̈̎̄͒̑̋͛̑͑̂͑̀͐̀͑̓͊̇͆̿͑͛͛͆́͆̓̿̇̀̓͑͆͂̓̾̏͊̀̇̍̃́̒̎̀̒̄̓̒̐̑̊̏̌̽̓͂͋̓̐̓͊̌͋̀̐̇̌̓̔͊̈̇́̏͒̋͊̓̆̋̈̀̌̔͆͑̈̐̈̍̀̉̋̈́͊̽͂̿͌͊̆̾̉͐̿̓̄̾͑̈́͗͗̂̂́̇͂̀̈́́̽̈́̓̓͂̽̓̀̄͌̐̔̄̄͒͌̈́̅̉͊̂͒̀̈́̌͂̽̀̑̏̽̀͑̐̐͋̀̀͋̓̅͋͗̍́͗̈́̆̏̇͊̌̏̔̑̐̈́͑̎͑͆̏̎́̑̍̏̒̌̊͘͘̚̕̚̕̕̚̕̚̕̕͜͜͜͜͜͝͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͝͝͝͠͝͝ͅͅͅͅͅͅͅ8̵̨̛̛̛̛̮͍͕̥͉̦̥̱̞̜̫̘̤̖̬͍͇͓̜̻̪̤̣̣̹̑͑̏̈́̐̐́̎͒̔͒̌̑̓̆̓͑̉̈́́͋̌͋͐͛͋̃̍̽̊͗͋͊̂̅͊͑́͋͛̉̏̓͌̾̈́̀͛͊̾͑̌̀̀̌̓̏̑́̄̉̌͂́͛̋͊̄͐͊̈́̀̌̆̎̿̓̔̍̎̀̍̚̕̕͘͘͘̕̚͝͝͠͠͠0̶̡̡̡̢̨̨͕̠̠͉̺̻̯̱̘͇̥͎͖̯͕̖̬̭͔̪̪͎̺̠̤̬̬̤̣̭̣͍̥̱̘̳̣̤͚̭̥͚̦͙̱̦͕̼͖͙͕͇̭͓͉͎̹̣̣͕̜͍͖̳̭͕̼̳̖̩͍͔̱̙̠̝̺̰̦̱̿̄̀͐͜͜ͅͅt̶̡̨̡̨̧̢̧̢̨̧̧̧̧̢̡̨̨̢̨̢̧̢̛̛̛̛̛̠͍̞̮͇̪͉̩̗̗͖̫͉͎͓̮̣̘̫͔̘̬̮̙̯̣͕͓̲̣͓͓̣̹̟͈̱͚̘̼̙̖̖̼̙̜̝͙̣̠̪̲̞̖̠̯̖̠̜̱͉̲̺͙̤̻̦̜͎̙̳̺̭̪̱͓̦̹̺͙̫̖̖̰̣͈͍̜̺̘͕̬̥͇̗̖̺̣̲̫̟̣̜̭̟̱̳̳̖͖͇̹̯̜̹͙̻̥̙͉͕̜͎͕̦͕̱͖͉̜̹̱̦͔͎̲̦͔̖̘̫̻̹̮̗̮̜̰͇̰͔̱͙̞̠͍͉͕̳͍̰̠̗̠̯̜̩͓̭̺̦̲̲͖̯̩̲̣̠͉̦̬͓̠̜̲͍̘͇̳̳͔̼̣͚̙͙͚͕̙̘̣̠͍̟̪̝̲͇͚̦̖͕̰̟̪͖̳̲͉͙̰̭̼̩̟̝̣̝̬̳͎̙̱͒̃̈͊̔͒͗̐̄̌͐͆̍͂̃̈́̾͗̅̐͒̓̆͛̂̾͋̍͂̂̄̇̿̈͌̅̈́̃̾̔̇̇̾̀͊͋̋̌̄͌͆͆̎̓̈́̾̊͊̇̌̔̈́̈́̀̐͊̊̍͑̊̈̓͑̀́̅̀̑̈́̽̃̽͛̇́̐̓̀͆̔̈̀̍̏̆̓̆͒̋́̋̍́̂̉͛̓̓̂̋̎́̒̏̈͋̃̽͆̓̀̔͑̈́̓͌͑̅̽́̐̍̉̑̓̈́͌̋̈́͂̊́͆͂̇̈́̔̃͌̅̈́͌͛̑̐̓̔̈́̀͊͛̐̾͐̔̾̈̃̈̄͑̓̋̇̉̉̚̕̚͘̕̚̚̕̕͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͠ͅͅͅͅͅi̵̢̧̢̧̡̧̢̢̧̢̢̢̡̡̡̧̧̡̡̧̛̛͈̺̲̫͕̞͓̥̖̭̜̫͉̻̗̭̖͔̮̠͇̩̹̱͈̗̭͈̤̠̮͙͇̲͙̰̳̹̲͙̜̟͚͎͓̦̫͚̻̟̰̣̲̺̦̫͓̖̯̝̬͉̯͓͈̫̭̜̱̞̹̪͔̤̜͙͓̗̗̻̟͎͇̺̘̯̲̝̫͚̰̹̫̗̳̣͙̮̱̲͕̺̠͉̫̖̟͖̦͉̟͈̭̣̹̱̖̗̺̘̦̠̯̲͔̘̱̣͙̩̻̰̠͓͙̰̺̠̖̟̗̖͉̞̣̥̝̤̫̫̜͕̻͉̺͚̣̝̥͇̭͎̖̦̙̲͈̲̠̹̼͎͕̩͓̖̥̘̱̜͙̹̝͔̭̣̮̗̞̩̣̬̯̜̻̯̩̮̩̹̻̯̬̖͂̈͂̒̇͗͑̐̌̎̑̽̑̈̈́͑̽́̊͋̿͊͋̅̐̈́͑̇̿̈́̌͌̊̅͂̎͆̏̓͂̈̿̏̃͑̏̓͆̔̋̎̕͘͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͝͝͠͠ͅͅͅͅͅͅͅͅͅZ̴̧̢̨̢̧̢̢̡̧̢̢̢̨̨̨̡̨̧̢̧̛̛̬̖͈̮̝̭̖͖̗̹̣̼̼̘̘̫̠̭̞͙͔͙̜̠̗̪̠̼̫̻͓̳̟̲̳̻̙̼͇̺͎̘̹̼͔̺̹̬̯̤̮̟͈̭̻͚̣̲͔͙̥͕̣̻̰͈̼̱̺̤̤͉̙̦̩̗͎̞͓̭̞̗͉̳̭̭̺̹̹̮͕̘̪̞̱̥͈̹̳͇̟̹̱̙͚̯̮̳̤͍̪̞̦̳̦͍̲̥̳͇̪̬̰̠͙͕̖̝̫̩̯̱̘͓͎̪͈̤̜͎̱̹̹̱̲̻͎̖̳͚̭̪̦̗̬͍̯̘̣̩̬͖̝̹̣̗̭͖̜͕̼̼̲̭͕͔̩͓̞̝͓͍̗̙̯͔̯̞̝̳̜̜͉̖̩͇̩̘̪̥̱͓̭͎͖̱̙̩̜͎̙͉̟͎͔̝̥͕͍͓̹̮̦̫͚̠̯͓̱͖͔͓̤͉̠͙̋͐̀͌̈́͆̾͆̑̔͂͒̀̊̀͋͑̂͊̅͐̿́̈́̐̀̏̋̃̄͆͒̈́̿̎́́̈̀̀͌̔͋͊̊̉̿͗͊͑̔͐̇͆͛̂̐͊̉̄̈́̄̐͂͂͒͑͗̓͑̓̾̑͋̒͐͑̾͂̎̋̃̽̂̅̇̿̍̈́́̄̍͂͑̏̐̾̎̆̉̾͂̽̈̆̔́͋͗̓̑̕͘̕͘͜͜͜͜͜͝͝͝͝͠͠͝ͅo̶̪͆́̀͂̂́̄̅͂̿͛̈́̿͊͗́͘͝t̴̡̨̧̨̧̡̧̨̡̢̧̢̡̨̛̪͈̣̭̺̱̪̹̺̣̬̖̣̻͈̞̙͇̩̻̫͈̝̭̟͎̻̟̻̝̱͔̝̼͍̞̼̣̘̤̯͓͉̖̠̤͔̜̙͚͓̻͓̬͓̻̜̯̱̖̳̱̗̠̝̥̩͓̗̪̙͓̖̠͎̗͎̱̮̯̮͙̩̫̹̹̖͙̙͖̻͈̙̻͇͔̙̣̱͔̜̣̭̱͈͕̠̹͙̹͇̻̼͎͍̥̘͙̘̤̜͎̟͖̹̦̺̤͍̣̼̻̱̲͎̗̹͉͙̪̞̻̹͚̰̻͈͈͊̈́̽̀̎̃̊́̈́̏̃̍̉̇̑̂̇̏̀͊̑̓͛̽͋̈́͆́̊͊̍͌̈́̓͊̌̿̂̾̐͑̓̀́͒̃̋̓͆̇̀͊̆͗̂͑͐̀͗̅̆͘̕͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅͅͅͅͅͅḁ̶̢̡̨̧̡̡̨̨̧̨̡̡̢̧̨̡̡̛̛̛͍̱̳͚͕̩͍̺̪̻̫̙͈̬͙̖͙̬͍̬̟̣̝̲̼̜̼̺͎̥̮̝͙̪̘̙̻͖͇͚͙̣̬̖̲̲̥̯̦̗̰̙̗̪̞̗̩̻̪̤̣̜̳̩̦̻͓̞̙͍͙̫̩̹̥͚̻̦̗̰̲̙̫̬̱̺̞̟̻͓̞͚̦̘̝̤͎̤̜̜̥̗̱͈̣̻̰̮̼̙͚͚̠͚̲̤͔̰̭̙̳͍̭͎̙͚͍̟̺͎̝͓̹̰̟͈͈̖̺͙̩̯͔̙̭̟̞̟̼̮̦̜̳͕̞̼͈̜͍̮͕̜͚̝̦̞̥̜̥̗̠̦͇͖̳͈̜̮̣͚̲̟͙̎̈́́͊̔̑̽̅͐͐͆̀͐́̓̅̈͑͑̍̿̏́͆͌̋̌̃̒̽̀̋̀̃̏̌́͂̿̃̎̐͊̒̀̊̅͒̎͆̿̈́̑̐̒̀̈́̓̾͋͆̇̋͒̎̈̄̓̂͊̆͂̈́̒̎͐̇̍̆̋̅̿̔͒̄̇̂̋̈́͆̎̔̇͊̊̈́̔̏͋́̀͂̈́̊͋͂̍̾̓͛̇̔̚͘̚̕̚͘͘̕̕̕̚͘͘̚̕̚̕͜͜͜͝͝͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅͅç̵̧̢̨̢̢̢̧̧̡̨̡̢̧̧̧̨̡̡̨̨̢̢̢̧̨̢̨̢̛̛͉̗̠͇̹̖̝͕͚͎̟̻͓̳̰̻̺̞̣͚̤͙͍͇̗̼͖͔͕͙͖̺͙̖̹̘̘̺͓̜͍̣̰̗̖̺̗̪̘̯̘͚̲͚̲̬̞̹̹͕̭͔̳̘̝̬͉̗̪͉͕̞̫͔̭̭̜͉͔̬̫͙̖̙͚͔͙͚͍̲̘͚̪̗̞̣̞̲͎͔͖̺͍͎̝͎͍̣͍̩̟͈͕̗͉̪̯͉͎͖͍̖͎̖̯̲̘̦̟̭͍͚͓͈͙̬͖̘̱̝̜̘̹̩̝̥̜͎̬͓̬͙͍͇͚̟̫͇̬̲̥̘̞̘̟̘̝̫͈̙̻͇͎̣̪̪̠̲͓͉͙͚̭̪͇̯̠̯̠͖̞̜͓̲͎͇̼̱̦͍͉͈͕͉̗̟̖̗̱̭͚͎̘͓̬͍̱͍̖̯̜̗̹̰̲̩̪͍̞̜̫̩̠͔̻̫͍͇͕̰̰̘͚͈̠̻̮͊̐̿̏̐̀̇̑̐̈͛͑͑̍̑̔̃̈́̓̈́̇̐͑̐̊̆͂̀̏͛̊̔̍̽͗͋̊̍̓̈́̏̅͌̀̽́̑͒͒̓͗̈́̎͌͂̕̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͠͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅͅͅͅS̵̡̡̧̧̨̨̡̢̡̡̡̡̧̧̡̧̢̫̯͔̼̲͉͙̱̮̭̗͖̯̤͙̜͚̰̮̝͚̥̜̞̠̤̺̝͇̻̱͙̩̲̺͍̳̤̺̖̝̳̪̻̗̮̪̖̺̹̭͍͇̗̝̱̻̳̝̖̝͎̙͉̞̱̯̙̜͇̯̻̞̱̭̗͉̰̮̞͍̫̺͙͎̙̞̯̟͓͉̹̲͖͎̼̫̩̱͇̲͓̪͉̺̞̻͎̤̥̭̺̘̻̥͇̤̖̰̘̭̳̫̙̤̻͇̪̦̭̱͎̥̟͖͕̣̤̩̟̲̭̹̦̹̣͖̖͒̈́̈́̓͗̈̄͂̈́̅̐̐̿̎̂͗̎̿̕͘͜͜͜͜͝͝ͅͅt̸̡̡̧̧̨̡̢̛̥̥̭͍̗͈̩͕͔͔̞̟͍̭͇̙̺̤͚͎͈͎͕̱͈̦͍͔͓̬͚̗̰̦͓̭̰̭̎̀̂̈́̓̒̈́̈́̂̄̋́̇̂͐͒̋̋̉͐̉̏̇͋̓̈́͐̾͋̒͒͐̊̊̀̄͆̄͆̑͆̇̊̓̚̚̕̚̕͜͠͝͝ͅͅơ̵̡̨̡̡̡̨̛̺͕̼͔̼̪̳͖͓̠̘̘̳̼͚͙͙͚̰͚͚͖̥̦̥̘̖̜̰͔̠͕̦͎̞̮͚͕͍̤̠̦͍̥̝̰̖̳̫̮̪͇̤̱̜͙͔̯͙̙̼͇̹̥̜͈̲̺̝̻̮̬̼̫̞̗̣̪̱͓̺̜̠͇͚͓̳̹̥̳̠͍̫͈̟͈̘̯̬̞͔̝͍͍̥̒̐͗͒͂͆̑̀̿̏́̀͑͗̐́̀̾̓́̌̇̒̈́̌̓͐̃̈́̒̂̀̾͂̊̀̂͐̃̄̓̔̽̒̈́̇̓͌̇̂̆̒̏̊̋͊͛͌̊̇̒̅͌̄̎̔̈́͊́̽̋̈̇̈́́͊̅͂̎̃͌͊͛͂̄̽̈́̿͐̉̽̿́́̉͆̈́̒́̂̾̄̇̌̒̈̅̍̿̐͑̓͊̈́̈̋̈́̉̍̋̊̈̀̈́̾̿̌̀̈́͌̑̍́̋̒̀̂̈́́̾̏̐̅̈̑͗͐̈͂̄̾̄̈́̍̉͑͛͗͋̈́̃̄̊́́͐̀̀̽̇̓̄̓̃͋͋̂̽̔̀̎͌̈́̈́̑̓̔̀̓͐͛͆̿̋͑͛̈́͂̅̋̅͆͗̇́̀̒́̏͒̐̍͂̓͐͐̇̂̉̑̊͑̉̋̍͊̄̀͂̎͒̔͊̃̏̕̚̕̕͘͘͘̚͘̚͘̕͘̚͘̚̚̚̕͘͜͜͜͝͝͠͠͝͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅc̴̨̡̢̢̢̡̡̢̛̛̛̻͇̝̣͉͚͎͕̻̦͖̤̖͇̪̩̤̻̭̮̙̰̖̰̳̪̱̹̳̬͖̣͙̼̙̰̻̘͇͚̺̗̩̫̞̳̼̤͔͍͉̟͕̯̺͈̤̰̹̍̋́͆̾̆̊͆͋̀͑͒̄̿̄̀̂͋̊͆́͑̑̽͊̓́̔̽̌͊̄͑͒͐̑͗̿̃̀̓̅́̿͗̈́͌̋̀̏̂͌̓́̇̀͒͋̌̌̅͋͌̆͐̀̔̒͐̊̇̿̽̀̈́̃̒̋̀̈́̃̏̂̊͗̑̊̈̇̀̌͐̈́̉̂̏͊̄͐̈̽͒̏̒̓́̌̓̅́̓̃͐͊͒̄͑̒͌̍̈́̕͘̚͘̕͘̚̕͜͝͠͝͝͝ͅǩ̴̢̢̢̧̨̢̢̢̨̨̨̢̢̢̨̧̨̡̡̢̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̜̥̩̙͕̮̪̻͈̘̯̼̰̜͚̰͖̬̳͖̣̭̼͔̲͉̭̺͚̺̟͉̝̱̲͎͉̙̥̤͚͙̬̪̜̺͙͍̱̞̭̬̩̖̤̹̤̺̦͈̰̗̰͍͇̱̤̬̬͙̙̲̙̜͖͓̙̟̙̯̪͍̺̥͔͕̝̳̹̻͇̠̣͈̰̦͓͕̩͇͈͇̖͙͍̰̲̤̞͎̟̝̝͈͖͔͖̦̮̗̬̞̞̜̬̠̹̣̣̲̮̞̤̜̤̲̙͔͕̯͔͍̤͕̣͔͙̪̫̝̣̰̬̬̭̞͔̦̟̥̣̻͉͈̮̥̦̮̦͕̤͇̺͆͆̈͗̄̀̌̔̈́̈̉̾̊̐̆̂͛̀̋́̏̀̿͒̓̈́̈́͂̽̾͗͊̋̐̓̓̀̃̊̊͑̓̈̎̇͑̆̂̉̾̾̑͊̉̃́̑͌̀̌̐̅̃̿̆̎̈́̀̒́͛̓̀̊́̋͛͒͊̆̀̃̊͋̋̾̇̒̋͂̏͗͆̂̔́̐̀́͗̅̈̋̂̎̒͊̌̉̈̈́͌̈́̔̾̊̎́͐͒̋̽̽́̾̿̚̕͘͘̚̕̕̕̚̚̕̚̕͘͜͜͜͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅͅͅB̸̢̧̨̡̢̧̨̡̡̨̡̨̡̡̡̢̨̢̨̛̛̛̛̛̛͉̞͚̰̭̲͈͎͕͈̦͍͈̮̪̤̻̻͉̫̱͔̞̫̦̰͈̗̯̜̩̪̲̻̖̳͖̦͎͔̮̺̬̬̼̦̠̪̤͙͍͓̜̥̙̖̫̻̜͍̻̙̖̜̹͔̗̪̜̖̼̞̣̠̫͉̯̮̤͈͎̝̪͎͇͙̦̥͙̳̫̰̪̣̱̘̤̭̱͍̦͔̖͎̺̝̰̦̱̣͙̙̤͚̲͔̘̱̜̻͔̥̻͖̭͔̜͉̺͕͙͖̜͉͕̤͚̠̩̮̟͚̗͈͙̟̞̮̬̺̻̞͔̥͉͍̦̤͓̦̻̦̯̟̰̭̝̘̩̖̝͔̳͉̗̖̱̩̩̟͙͙͛̀͐̈́̂̇͛̅̒̉̏̈́̿͐́̏̃̏̓̌̽͐̈́͛̍͗͆͛̋̔̉͂̔̂̓̌͌͋̂͆̉͑̊̎́̈́̈̂͆͑́̃̍̇̿̅̾́́̿̅̾̆̅̈́̈̓͒͌͛̃͆̋͂̏̓̅̀͂̽̂̈̈́̎̾̐͋͑̅̍̈́̑̅̄͆̓̾̈́͐̎̊͐̌̌̓͊̊̔̈́̃͗̓͊͐̌͆̓͗̓̓̾̂̽͊͗́́́̽͊͆͋͊̀̑̿̔͒̏̈́́̏͆̈́͋̒͗͂̄̇̒͐̃͑̅̍͒̎̈́̌̋́̓͂̀̇͛̋͊͆̈́̋́̍̃͒̆̕̚̚̕̕̕͘̕̚̚͘̕͜͜͜͜͝͠͠͝͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅͅI̵̡̢̧̨̡̢̨̡̡̢̡̧̡̢̢̢̡̢̛̛͕͎͕̩̠̹̩̺̣̳̱͈̻̮̺̟̘̩̻̫͖̟͓̩̜̙͓͇̙̱̭̰̻̫̥̗̠͍͍͚̞̘̫͉̬̫̖̖̦͖͉̖̩̩̖̤̺̥̻̝͈͎̻͓̟̹͍̲͚͙̹̟̟̯͚̳̟͕̮̻̟͈͇̩̝̼̭̯͚͕̬͇̲̲̯̰̖̙̣̝͇̠̞̙͖͎̮̬̳̥̣̺̰͔̳̳̝̩̤̦̳̞̰̩̫̟͚̱̪̘͕̫̼͉̹̹̟̮̱̤̜͚̝̠̤̖̮̯̳͖̗̹̞̜̹̭̿̏͋̒͆̔̄̃̾̓͛̾̌́̅̂͆̔͌͆͋̔̾́̈̇̐̄̑̓̂̾́̄̿̓̅̆͌̉̎̏̄͛̉͆̓̎͒͘̕̕͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͝͠ͅͅƠ̷̛̛̛̛̛͋͂̅̈́̍͂̽͗̾͒̇̇̒͐̍̽͊́̑̇̑̾̉̓̈̾͒̍̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝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Posted March 5, 2019

21 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

"Antiquated"... to most normal people X86 won't be "antiqated" because Apple says so.

Furthermore, much of that older software has reached a mature state where we know how it works and can rely on the results it makes. It also allows for us to replicate older experiments which is crucial to the advancement of science.

I guess we should stop using "antiquated" LaTeX for type setting and also forget how to typset the code into readable papers. By bye 50 years of research papers. Yeah... basically a consumer focused ARM based mac is completely useless to anyone who wants to do anything more demanding.

x86 is a fairly antiquated and inefficient ISA as a whole; x86 would look very different if it was being developed today. Being grandfathered in as a result of a difficulty of switching doesn't make something an ideal modern solution.

21 minutes ago, Uttamattamakin said:

I mean GAMING! on mac is already nearly impossible.

Gaming, the thing that the vast majority of people don't give two shits about.

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Posted March 5, 2019

11 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

x86 is a fairly antiquated and inefficient ISA as a whole; x86 would look very different if it was being developed today. Being grandfathered in as a result of a difficulty of switching doesn't make something an ideal modern solution.

By computer standards, so is ARM. Not quite as old as x86, but still over 30 years old.

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Posted March 5, 2019

6 hours ago, Jtalk4456 said:

Intel losing marketshare was my first thought, but after looking for some numbers, it seems this won't have a large effect. There will be some effect, but noting ship-sinking.

Yeah and now think about the delay in Market share. Some people are talking about Ryzen overtaking Coffee Lake.

And there is this:

https://www.planet3dnow.de/cms/44271-mercury-research-amd-gewinnt-weiter-marktanteile/

They quadrupled their share in Servers within a year. And doubled the share within a Quater!

From Q3 to Q4/2018 they doubled it from 1,6 to 3,2%.

So to claim that Intel is not in trouble, after they had trouble to find a new CEO is totally bonkers!

Especially since Rome isn't even out and you can bet your behind that many bigger companys know about rome and that is what they are waiting fore.

Haven't you seen the CES Demonstration of Rome?! Where a single Socket AMD system destroyed a dual socket Intel System?!

Also look at the Notebook.

A rise from 6,9% to 12,1% - +75,4%

Just deskop "only" increased from 12 to ~16%...

But that's also 4% less than Intel...

So if the rumors are true and Intel needs another year and AMD will deliver an 8 Core/16T CPU for 179,99 or 229,99 Dollar, then Intel can not hold its 500€ price point for the i9-9900K.

So what can they do against that?! Lower the prices will be one thing.

And now think about that they might have to cut the prices for their normal Desktop processors in half...

Yeah, Intel is totally not in trouble. Absolutely... bullshit...

As the stuff you quote:
Yeah, 5% doesn't matter. Totally not...

That's peanuts...

Dude, we're talking about 5% of 70 BILLION DOLLARS

That's 3,5 Billion Dollars

If that would go to AMD for example, that would increase their Revenue by ~50%!

And with Matisse, Rome and the Chiplet design its also possible that Apple just drops Intel and moves to AMD this year and next year uses ARM for mobile and AMD for their Desktops (MAC-PRO)

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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Posted March 5, 2019

2 hours ago, 79wjd said:

x86 is a fairly antiquated and inefficient ISA as a whole; x86 would look very different if it was being developed today.

Sorry, but the whole PC/everything would look different if it was done today.

In theory you can still ram a baby AT Board in an ATX Case or probably even a full AT with the right case.

The PSU mechanical specs haven't changed in like 30 years or even 35 years...

Today you'd have a different design, only a single voltage of 12, maybe 24V, different dimensions for the PSU, maybe even a microprocessor and other communciation stuff the slots would look completely different, especially for graphics cards. And so much more.

Many things that were a good idea in the 70s and 80s aren't a good idea today...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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Posted March 5, 2019

1 hour ago, Nicholatian said:

I think it’s still a step in the right direction. The architectures themselves, from a technical standpoint, are quite different, and the evolution of ARM has been very different than x86. Intel took a strict, hardline approach to backwards compatibility that lets you run DOS on a Core i7 today, and the clientele ARM has kept has never justified such backbending. Most clients had assembly programmers who knew what needed to be done

Backwards compatibility has nothing to do with the ISA, but the system architecture. The IBM PC standard isn't just an x86 processor. It's an x86 processor with a bunch of other support hardware. And while sure, supporting these features still require silicon to implement, at this point, it's likely trivial anyway. And I highly doubt supporting these features really costs that much performance.

ARM's only saving grace was that everyone who used them didn't care about being compatible with each other. Otherwise ARM retains much of the backwards compatibility of older ISA versions because it's not really backwards compatibility. It's adding on to the last version of the ISA.

Which brings up another point: just because one system uses a CPU of a particular ISA, doesn't mean everything that uses the ISA is compatible with it. Example: when hackers of the PS4 were getting Linux on it, they couldn't boot a bog-standard amd64 build of it because the amd64 build was looking for IBM PC standard specific components that aren't present on a PS4, so the OS assumed there was something wrong with the system and crapped out. They had to make a PS4 specific build of Linux to get it to boot. Then things that ran on x86 PCs could run on it (presumably as long as the software again, wasn't looking for anything specific to the IBM PC standard).

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Posted March 5, 2019 (edited)

12 hours ago, Nicholatian said:

Nonsense. Both of them matter just as much as the other. The difference is, selecting for CPU compatibility is trivial at compile time: change a flag, and you’re done. Changing a machine requires changing the code that you’ve wrote, which is a much more difficult task. Like I said before, ARM’s clientele understood this and were usually well prepared to handle the chore. This never happened with x86 because there was never as much fracturing thanks to the IBM PC.

I'd argue differently, if only to make a distinction. For application software running on top of a modern day well-featured OS should require minimal change in the code provided you've used compatible libraries or frameworks. While I don't dabble in Android app development, I have a grasp on its application framework and it allows an app developer to not worry about targeting an ISA or machine.

However for system software development, yes, changing something about the system architecture requires code changes.

Quote

For AArch32, it’s been a long history of progress, with modularity that hasn’t been seen with x86. Many ARM features like NEON and hard floats only became “standard” because virtually everybody could use them, and this is completely besides whatever other peripherals the whole machine might offer to a developer. AArch64 was a do-over though, which can’t really be said for x86-64, because the IBM-PC wasn’t designed for 64-bit computing and anything AArch64 had would have been made from scratch. Who uses an ISA has huge influence on how it’s done – that’s just the market for you.

~~AArch64~~ ARMv8's design was meant to retain backwards compatibility with the older 32-bit ISA and Thumb considering it's compatible with software built for that ISA. It's not a do-over. It's the same thing as x86-64.

Quote

Backwards compatibility needs shape the ISA. Finding exceptions like the PS4 doesn’t mean anything because it’s not a rule you can promptly falsify – it’s a trend. Market forces created the differences we see today in the ARM ISA family and the x86 family as well.

The ISA can't help you if you're trying to run an IBM PC compatible software and the system doesn't have something equivalent to an Intel APIC or an 8254 that said software was expecting. And the capabilities of either hardware should not be part of an ISA.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Mira Yurizaki

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Posted March 5, 2019

12 hours ago, Jtalk4456 said:

Intel losing marketshare was my first thought, but after looking for some numbers, it seems this won't have a large effect. There will be some effect, but noting ship-sinking.

https://variety.com/2018/digital/news/apple-intel-chips-1202741497/

And that's almost assuming worst case in this scenario.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge. Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.

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Posted March 5, 2019

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Windows, MacOS, Android and basically all operating systems are built by “random people”. For example Android is based on Linux with contributions from all 84 members of the OHA, plus some volunteers and other people.

Windows itself is also written by "a bunch of random people" and the people working on it today are very different from the ones who worked on it maybe 10 years ago. It's easy to see Microsoft as one single entity, but in reality it's also just a bunch of people, doing their own things with some guidelines and oversight from a maintainer (just like all software projects, including open source ones like Linux). And all of them rely on things other developers have created.

Uhm no, thats not how design and engineering of OS and features works, some random people in the company decide what to implement, they have very specific design and programming tasks they have to implement and test that are decided by the higher levels, cant go into details here. Do you think DX12 or DXR or UWP was decided by some random guy in the graphics programming branch of windows? dont make me laugh man thats ridiculous you should know better than that...

Quote

Windows has better refresh rate because a third party driver developer decided to put more time and effort into making their graphics drivers on Windows work well compared to Linux.

False, windows by default without amd/nvidia drivers just using their basic display drivers supports high refresh rate altough with performance issues, also their DWM doesnt render windows at the lowest of the monitors refresh rate, it detects on which monitor your window is and renders at that refresh rate, some can do that on linux aswell but they stutter heavily on the high refresh monitor, it tries to render at 144hz example but limits to 60 and probably drops a lot of frames thats how it feels to me and based on what i read on support forums for various WM's/compositors its not like i analized the code myself.

Quote

1) Androids is nowhere near "flawless".

Nothing is, i dont get your reasoning behind that. If i used that word i dont mean perfect theres no such thing, i meant the fact that there is no lag, stutter, BSOD, kernel panics or issues with features and functionality it works as intended, if you have a broken old droid phone thats not my problem, the last phone i had issues on was some crappy 4.4 kit kat dual core droid in 2014~, since i switched to xioami phones and android 7+ my experience has been flawless in all types of application's, in the limit of the SOC performance ofcourse.

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2) Android, as well as all operating systems, are more to some extent "random components that work (don't) together", just like on Linux. A modular OS design is really good and it's the lack of that which is currently causing Microsoft so many issues in some areas where they hadn't thought of modularity. Whenever they change something in Windows right now, other parts of the OS break because it does not have the same modular designed as Linux. Did you know that Android (Linux based I might add) has changed out huge, core parts of the OS from one update to another, without things breaking left and right? In Android 5.0 Google swapped out the entire runtime environment for example.

Windows has other major issues other than modularity, mainly the fact that its bloated and old and trying to support software as old as the 90's while also trying to be 32/64 bit backwards compatible at the same time, also has many old design issues like the registry nonsense and complete lack of software permissions to access files and hardware among many others. WinSxS folder is a testament of that, trying to support so much old software.

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3) What exactly do you mean when you say it needs a "platform developed as one" and what benefits do you think that brings?....

And how is this bad exactly?

I would avoid writing a whole book here explaining so i will recommend this video to you instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdRGVej3RyI

You said i do not know how OS'es work, well you clearly do not understand why linux is failing on desktop and why android(even based on linux), windows and OSX, iOS are succeeding, best i can tell you is to watch that video when you have time, maybe its boring but necessary i wish all linux kernel,distro and app dev's would watch it because even though they have their nose up linux's butt they cant see the clear picture.

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1) Fractional DPI scaling (which by the way, is possible).

2) Per display DPI (which is possible)

3) Use a scroll wheel in a browser (no idea what you're on about or why you don't think that works)

I said clicking and scrolling by mouse wheel drag, when the cross arrows mouse icon appears when clicking the wheel, thats the way i scroll the most on long pages and linux has no support for it, or changing how many lines you scroll with the wheel up/down, as far as ive researched its an x.org input issue, or lack of implementation, which is why i hate random components that might get features if developers feel like implementing it... in 2050 ffs, windows had this since XP and linux dev's are sleeping. You can only use such features with browser extensions, and only chrome has decent extensions for it.

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4) Different refresh rates (you can)

Never said you cant do different refresh rates on multiple screens, its just that WM's and compositors dont work properly with such settings, lag,stutter etc.

Look here how can you claim linux has good dpi support and fractional scaling when it just got implemented? actually linux cant have support for it because its the job of people that work on gnome or kde etc, which means they will get implemented when they feel like it, read the link ".. 3 years after the bug was opened..." duh. Now its the plasma team turn to get fractional scaling and other improvements, mhm.. maybe in the next 3 years. This another reason why linux sucks people trying to fix the exact same issues multiple times, example if gnome fixes fractional scaling this year and kde fixes refresh rates issues you will not get the benefit of both, facepalm, thats what i meant by a unified platform where system components are developed togheter not fragmented and everyone fixes whatever they want when they want.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=GNOME-3.32-Fractional-Scaling

Also read here the exact issues im having are just being worked on now while windows had these done since win7, and ofc thats only for gnome if you use something else, well though luck, welcome to fragmented random development linux, lmao.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=GNOME-Still-Dropping-Latency

"Specifically on the Ubuntu front, Daniel has released a fix for Ubuntu 19.04 Disco and Ubuntu 18.04 Bionic to deal with 144/120Hz displays where GNOME's Mutter caps the rendering to 60 FPS."

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In before: "Baww that's too hard and on Windows you just click a thing and it works". Never said it was as easy to do on Windows, but you saying it can't be done on Linux is incorrect.

Almost everything on a desktop OS needs to be automated by the dev's, just like windows/mac/android i dont need to write any script, thats a linux elitsts issues, "who care's you cant script, i can, go back to windows peasant" i heard that many times on reddit and other forums.

Do you think your grandma will install linux and read API and documentation on how to write scripts for your display resolution, piss off, not even i wont do that, thats just poor development, linux will never succeed like that it will stay irrelevant will MS and google took over everything but servers and diy.

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Why can't someone collaborate and implement a new feature in x or wayland? What is stopping that from happening? It happens all the time.

Let's take x as an example. You can join their mailing list here if you want and talk directly to the developers. If you want to submit a patch then here is the way of doing that. There is nothing stopping someone from suggesting or developing a new feature for x if they want, and the same goes for wayland.

As im talking in the context of a usable desktop OS not a hacking development OS, i will not join anything i do not have time and dont care anymore, it is not my job to fix such issues, and suggestions are usually ignored unless you are someone skilled/knowledgeable or know the developers.

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Gonna need a source that Linux "lags behind in terms of stability". Features I can get, but stability?

Again that depends on the exact definition of stability, in the context of a desktop OS platform i was talking about (my fault for not detailing that) i meant things like the entire platform not the kernel alone, among others if your driver crashes you need to restart, the system cant recover, many issues with freezing desktop, they happen, mainly when you run heavier 3D software like games/apps, usually due to x.org, wayland, drivers instability, and stop blaming nvidia for everything, i use and RX 580 with open source driver and i have same issues.

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1) Microsoft, Google and Apple do not have full control over the entire platform stack. There are a lot of things which are entirely out of their hands.

Yea yea, IEEE and 4G/wifi standards, thats not what im talking about, im very specific about the things they are in control, security, stability, desktop features, API, and last but not least the ability to collaborate and invest resources directly with the hardware manufacturers to get features or drivers working, with linux no one is doing any of that for the desktop, no one is stopping them but they have no reason to do it or anyone pushing for it, or any economic incentive.

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They already have.

There are some Android devices out there which runs on x86, including Google's own Nexus Player.

Thats not even close, they made it for a specific device, we need an Android OS, open source ported with all its functionality to the x86 desktop computers and laptops and google collaborate with intel/nvidia/amd to get drivers properly working, implement proper multi-display and peripherals support etc, but since desktop is not a growing market and everyone is buying a lot of mobile they are not going to do it, it would be a slow grind to get marketshare from MS/Linux users, and there is little support for developing software for other systems on Android google would have to hack linux x86 apps support into this new Android and then we are talking business, merging PlayStore massive app store with the full development power of regular x86 and you got yourself a fast growing desktop, as long as they make it open source and dont force anyone into google services + tracking/telemetry it would make old linux distros irrelevant very quickly, the main distros will all probably become or make a new version based on this + customization, which is fine as long as the system components and API's that run on top of the kernel are unified into the Android project.

With the money/experience google has i really do not know what they are waiting for, are they scared of getting into a fight with MS? MS is alredy lost , their desktop OS runs well but its too bloated, inflexible, their mobile OS has flopped, their server OS costs a fortune, mac is closed for their devices only, linux distros are too fragmented and will never work properly, i see a huge opportunity here for google to step in and release Android X86 + ARM based phones, laptop, desktops.... or at least the software behind it, especially since linux already has a lot of support for desktop and devices, it would be too easy as long as they can get their PlayStore and API's to work on x86.

Also this is what i mean by unified platform, maybe its better with a picture:

Users and App developers need be concerned with with anything other than the application itself, the entire platform should be taken care of a single entity(developer group, google,MS, apple etc), having a fragmented runtime, libraries, multiple drivers OS and closed source, and 20 WM's and so on will never work for desktop usage, it will always be full of issues and lag behind in features also dev's will avoid making apps for it.

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Posted March 5, 2019

1 hour ago, yian88 said:

Uhm no, thats not how design and engineering of OS and features works, some random people in the company decide what to implement, they have very specific design and programming tasks they have to implement and test that are decided by the higher levels, cant go into details here. Do you think DX12 or DXR or UWP was decided by some random guy in the graphics programming branch of windows? dont make me laugh man thats ridiculous you should know better than that...

And you think things like Vulcan was just developed by some random guy without any input or guidelines being established?

How Microsoft handles development isn't much different from something like the Linux kernel or Ubuntu. They both have upper management deciding which direction to develop things in, what needs to be done, who does what, and so on.

1 hour ago, yian88 said:

False, windows by default without amd/nvidia drivers just using their basic display drivers supports high refresh rate altough with performance issues

[Citation Needed]

All the documentation I can find points towards vga.sys only supporting a very low resolution, limited colors and basic refresh rate.

Please note that I am specifically referring to the Microsoft developed, generic VGA drivers, not some basic Nvidia or AMD driver that may be shipping with Windows.

You can test this out by starting Windows in safe mode, which will default to using the generic drivers rather than first party ones.

1 hour ago, yian88 said:

also their DWM doesnt render windows at the lowest of the monitors refresh rate, it detects on which monitor your window is and renders at that refresh rate

I assume we're talking about specifically DWM here. In that case it can only do so with an appropriate video driver using the WDDM. If you don't have that, it won't work.

1 hour ago, yian88 said:

some can do that on linux aswell but they stutter heavily on the high refresh monitor, it tries to render at 144hz example but limits to 60 and probably drops a lot of frames thats how it feels to me and based on what i read on support forums for various WM's/compositors its not like i analized the code myself.

Oh no... Not a bunch of "it feels to me like..." crap. If you can't prove something then don't say it. I don't care what you "feel" like is happening on your machine when you tried it. What I care about is what actually happens. For all I know, and for all everyone else reading this knows, you might just be making all this shit up, or maybe you did something wrong on your computer. Facts are facts though. There is nothing preventing you from doing 144Hz in a GNU/Linux distro. It might require some fiddling with settings (because the drivers sometimes don't do things automatically like on Windows) but it's possible.

1 hour ago, yian88 said:

Nothing is, i dont get your reasoning behind that. If i used that word i dont mean perfect theres no such thing, i meant the fact that there is no lag, stutter, BSOD, kernel panics or issues with features and functionality it works as intended, if you have a broken old droid phone thats not my problem, the last phone i had issues on was some crappy 4.4 kit kat dual core droid in 2014~, since i switched to xioami phones and android 7+ my experience has been flawless in all types of application's, in the limit of the SOC performance ofcourse.

Well, you're the one that used the word "flawless".

And again, I do not give a crap about your subjective experience with something. I care about facts. It's completely irrelevant that you have not had a single issue with an Android phone since 2014.

Stick to facts and not subjective experiences if you're going to try and argue technical issues with something.

1 hour ago, yian88 said:

Windows has other major issues other than modularity, mainly the fact that its bloated and old and trying to support software as old as the 90's while also trying to be 32/64 bit backwards compatible at the same time, also has many old design issues like the registry nonsense and complete lack of software permissions to access files and hardware among many others. WinSxS folder is a testament of that, trying to support so much old software.

Holy crap more ignorance.

1) Yes Windows has more issues than modularity, but you tried to argue that modularity was bad. It isn't. There are no inherent drawbacks with designing a modular system. There are however inherent drawbacks with not doing it.

2) Windows is not bloated because it tries to maintain backwards compatibility. The libraries needed for backwards compatibility are tiny compared to other things. Here is an older post I wrote about it, with some examples:

On 1/14/2019 at 3:30 PM, LAwLz said:

Not sure what you mean. Are you implying that the only reason why other operating systems are smaller is because they do not have compatibility with older applications? Because that's false. If it weren't for package manager differences, very old GNU/Linux programs would be able to run on modern distros today.

Things like system libraries takes up very little space.

user32_dll for example implements a large part of the user interface components in Windows (for example window management). It also includes components for message passing and input processing. The entire library takes up less than 800KB and contains over 1000 functions.

kernel.dll is another one of the very large libraries. It has something like 1400 functions in it and takes up 837KB.

The idea that Windows is bloated because it keeps legacy support around doesn't even make sense if you stop and think about it for one second. Old Windows libraries which have stuck around until today were tiny in size because they needed to run on the hardware that was available back then. The entire Windows 95 OS takes up something along the lines of 30MB. If you just need the libraries for backwards compatibility then I wouldn't be surprised if you could get it down to maybe 10MB. That's all that's needed for backwards compatibility going back decades. The size of system libraries and APIs are measured in KB and low, single digit MB.

2) The registry is often something ignorant people point to and go "look at how bad it is". In reality, there is nothing wrong with the registry, other than maybe being a bit misused and not very user friendly. Can you tell me some technical issues with the registry? I doubt it. It's fast and efficient, especially compared to the alternative like ini files.

3) I don't think WinSxS is used for what you think it is used for. It's used for Windows updating, not legacy support. The WinSxS folder is also often blamed for taking up too much space by people who don't know how the Windows shell handles NTFS hard links when calculating size. Spoilers: The folder is significantly smaller than what Windows reports, because all hard links are counted as the full file size.

2 hours ago, yian88 said:

I would avoid writing a whole book here explaining so i will recommend this video to you instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdRGVej3RyI

You said i do not know how OS'es work, well you clearly do not understand why linux is failing on desktop and why android(even based on linux), windows and OSX, iOS are succeeding, best i can tell you is to watch that video when you have time, maybe its boring but necessary i wish all linux kernel,distro and app dev's would watch it because even though they have their nose up linux's butt they cant see the clear picture.

I understand why it's failing. It's not because of the reasons you listed (like not being able to hold middle click and scroll).

A lot of your complains are completely misguided and towards the wrong people. The things you are assuming like "this feels weird, so therefore it must be because of X, Y and Z!" are often wrong too. For example you assuming that GNU/Linux distros don't support 144Hz, or different DPI scaling, or whatever else you have said it doesn't support.

2 hours ago, yian88 said:

I said clicking and scrolling by mouse wheel drag, when the cross arrows mouse icon appears when clicking the wheel, thats the way i scroll the most on long pages and linux has no support for it

Which component exactly does not have support for it? You say Linux, but it might just be the particular web browsers you have tried doesn't have it implemented.

2 hours ago, yian88 said:

or changing how many lines you scroll with the wheel up/down

You can change that.

2 hours ago, yian88 said:

which is why i hate random components that might get features if developers feel like implementing it... in 2050

Yeah, because that is sooo different from any other OS.

Hey, how easy do you think it is for me to get a feature I request implemented into Windows? It's exactly the same.

2 hours ago, yian88 said:

Never said you cant do different refresh rates on multiple screens, its just that WM's and compositors dont work properly with such settings, lag,stutter etc.

[Citation Needed]

2 hours ago, yian88 said:

Look here how can you claim linux has good dpi support and fractional scaling when it just got implemented?

When did I claim it had good support for it? Hell, I don't even think Windows has good DPI scaling support. You said it didn't have support for it at all. I proved you wrong and now you're trying to move the goalpost to "well it's not that good".

Gonna write the rest of the response later...

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Posted March 5, 2019

2 hours ago, yian88 said:

I don't know the reason why we ended up discussing those things btw, you are just addressing bugs which some of them are present on Windows too, what's the point? You seem just mad to Linux tbh

Just because it doesn't support properly some setup for the 5% of people with double refresh rate monitors of a 1% market share os, so everyone should not consider it as a desktop? This could be fixed in the future

I'm got the same setup and having some issues with it too on Windows, I can tell later if you are really interested rather than talking bad about something you just don't like but it's perfectly fine for other setups

Just for the record, windows had bad dpi scaling and the KDE desktop addressed this issue 4 years ago, I don't know where you couldn't find the options

As KDE had features in the past even before Windows and MacOs for example, and it's pointless discussing this anyway I'm not calling totally Windows a crap os for this, you seem just mad for some reason I can't explain, honestly

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Posted March 5, 2019

56 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

-snip-

Im not sure what are you arguing about though, and what to respond to.

Overall what ive said many times is that linux as desktop has many platform design issues that cant and wont be solved by the community, everyone does thing how they see fit. Google solved these by developing the entire Android platform stack up to the window managers,the UI itself, a bunch of basic apps/functionality that are essential, and standardization of components/API.

Developers and companies will not invest in writing high quality software and drivers for such a messy linux desktop that no one has any control over.

If you dont understand here is the video again so i dont have to write all that again.

These are the main issues that do not allow proper software development, write once >package your app> distribute to all linux users regardless of distro and work without issue, and even if you fixed these problems of standardization, you are then still left with the dozen different WM's, compositors etc etc, all trying to solve the same problem some getting it right some not, lagging many years in feature support that other OS'es already have day one, especially for phones, Mac devices and now Microsoft surface devices you get all the support you would expect day 1, you boot it up it works. Regular Windows desktop is lagging a bit behind, but linux desktop is many years behind, thats not good, no one wants that.

Linux can stay as it is if no one cares, to be used by a <2% marketshare, it will never be what it can be, because linux elitist desktop developers cant agree to standardize some components.

Linux is going nowhere fast, in the future i expect to use my powerfull mobile device to do everything and get rid of desktop/laptop, and linux wont be part of it (except of Android unless it gets replaced by google's fuschia kernel).

The technology already exists it just needs improvements, probably most people will work/game/multimedia by connecting a USB4(Thunderbolt) from phone to a workstation comprised of a monitor + keyboard mouse, or using foldable devices as screen + bluetooth keyboard/mouse.

And thats exactly what i want to happen in next 10 years, linux sadly will be <1% marketshare and developers still fight about what DE is better, meh, pathetic. All those years of work and attempt to improve linux desktop all in vain, no one will have need for it because it didnt adapt to user needs and new tech.

Im actually really glad Apple is switching Mac's to ARM, if it can succesfully port Mac x86 apps to ARM even better, it will probably force others to do it aswell, looking at you google, MS has already showed a demo of x86 apps running on W10 on ARM without issues.

In its current messy state i dont see where the linux desktop place is. Unless you want it to stay like this which seems to be the opinion of quite a few of linux users/devs, thats just sad.

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Posted March 5, 2019

7 minutes ago, Nicholatian said:

-snip-

At this point I'm convinced we're agreeing to the same thing, but you're not agreeing with how I'm saying it. So let's just move on our merry ways

2 hours ago, yian88 said:

Im actually really glad Apple is switching Mac's to ARM, if it can succesfully port Mac x86 apps to ARM even better, it will probably force others to do it aswell, looking at you google, MS has already showed a demo of x86 apps running on W10 on ARM without issues.

But Microsoft didn't port any of those apps, they wrote an emulator. And they were threatened with legal action for their efforts.

Also it's not up to Apple to port any apps other than its own.

I have a blog! And a list of guides I've posted

yian88
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Posted March 5, 2019

4 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

But Microsoft didn't port any of those apps, they wrote an emulator. And they were threatened with legal action for their efforts.

Also it's not up to Apple to port any apps other than its own.

Well then intel's confirmation makes no sense then, if apple moves Mac's to ARM without emulation or translation layer for existing x86 apps then its completely useless, unless they want to make a new Mac laptop series that have access only to iOS apps.

If you read the articles it clearly says Apple wants to combine iOS and MacOS app's into one, so either they emulator or they help porting apps i dont know but they clearly have a plan if these news are true.

I dont know why they sued MS and who sued them. The app creators sue them? for running their software made for Windows in an Windows emulator on ARM cpu? that doesnt make any sense. Its still running on windows, i would understand if you ran Chrome browser or Adobe software for windows in an emulator for ReactOS for example, that would probably be illegal.

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Posted March 5, 2019

36 minutes ago, yian88 said:

Well then intel's confirmation makes no sense then, if apple moves Mac's to ARM without emulation or translation layer for existing x86 apps then its completely useless, unless they want to make a new Mac laptop series that have access only to iOS apps.

If you read the articles it clearly says Apple wants to combine iOS and MacOS app's into one, so either they emulator or they help porting apps i dont know but they clearly have a plan if these news are true.

You can create apps that don't need to worry about what ISA or system they're targeting as long as they're not trying to do something specific to a device. Android apps for instance are primarily developed in Java and shipped that way, but the OS takes care of turning that the package you get from the Play Store into what can be run on the device. And as long as the device has the features the app wants, the OS can run it. So if an app wants to use a camera, it doesn't care what kind of camera it is, as long as there's a camera. I'm pretty certain Apple has been pushing something similar for a while with Swift and all of the APIs that both iOS and macOS share.

The principle is the same with web pages. The HTML, CSS, and JavaScript "ecosystem" doesn't care what it's going to run on. Web developers don't optimize for any particular machine or device since that's not what they're actually targeting.

EDIT: The way app development has been going for some time now is to get away from needing to port anything, or rather, to worry about targeting specific devices or ISAs. This allows the app developer to focus on, you know, the actual app rather than the system in question. The only difference in running apps on different devices once abstracted well enough is the performance.

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I dont know why they sued MS and who sued them.

Intel threatened to sue Microsoft.

I have a blog! And a list of guides I've posted

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Posted March 5, 2019

3 hours ago, yian88 said:

Again you are just comparing different platforms and just because it is less used doesn't mean it's worse, if windows used the same design as Linux you would be stating the opposite because vice versa it wouldn't be like the other?

Why don't you mention that Linux has some better aspects for a desktop and user experience too compared to Windows?

Again, you just seem mad because it doesn't support for some another reason your device (my opinion) and need to justify why it is not being used with some true or not statements

Couldn't it be just because if a thing just work on Windows companies won't port that to linux even if it's in some ways better? Because it really is that simple, people won't probably move until Wine offers complete compatibility to what already exist on Windows for example

I don't even know why we're discussing about this when it's clearly off topic

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These are the main issues that do not allow proper software development, write once >package your app> distribute to all linux users regardless of distro and work without issue

An easy way to distribute software already exist and always existed, similar approach to MacOS and other Unix-like systems and even on Windows too
It's again really that simple.
Software on Windows: Random bloatware setup with built-in spyware for example which contains binaries + all libraries needed for a program + optional: some VC runtime or directX libraries in some cases

And "software incompatibility" happens here too because a .dll is missing for example I don't see that much noise about people blaming windows design when it's clearly a developer fault, here again they don't even use the same method as for running software you can just double click a binary not inside a setup.exe so it's not standardized even in there.

Do seriously people call a missing library incompatibility?

Software on macOS (most of the time): Giant archive containing binary and libraries

Software on Linux: Wouldn't the same approach be possible? Because it already is and already happened, just look at any steam downloaded game aren't they software too running on different linux distros?
It's just developer fault, if they would support every distro they could, it's opposite as Windows where here exist a way to deploy software in the best way available as with updates
Just because a lot of package manager exist doesn't mean they couldn't support everything

And software developers for Windows will start deprecating support (eliminating old libraries for example) for old systems in the same way Linux does some times

You were just pointing out an issue which happen on non updated packages on package managers who most of the time share the same libraries as other installed software in the system to reduce space and increase performance, so every package require a dependency to be installed and even in this case distros like ubuntu offers multiple software versions with different libraries in some cases like if it is proprietary, now not all packages are the same and depends but that's how things work here.

There can be some packages with proprietary software installed in /opt with all the libraries like the usual Windows approach

3 hours ago, yian88 said:

In its current messy state i dont see where the linux desktop place is. Unless you want it to stay like this which seems to be the opinion of quite a few of linux users/devs, thats just sad.

Yeah really messy, sure... Dude idk what are you talking about at all, really... You seem confused and dramatized

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you are then still left with the dozen different WM's, compositors etc etc, all trying to solve the same problem some getting it right some not, lagging many years in feature support that other OS'es already have day one, especially for phones,

Linux can stay as it is if no one cares, to be used by a <2% marketshare, it will never be what it can be, because linux elitist desktop developers cant agree to standardize some components.

Linux is going nowhere fast, in the future i expect to use my powerfull mobile device to do everything and get rid of desktop/laptop, and linux wont be part of it (except of Android unless it gets replaced by google's fuschia kernel).

The technology already exists it just needs improvements, probably most people will work/game/multimedia by connecting a USB4(Thunderbolt) from phone to a workstation comprised of a monitor + keyboard mouse, or using foldable devices as screen + bluetooth keyboard/mouse.

And thats exactly what i want to happen in next 10 years, linux sadly will be <1% marketshare and developers still fight about what DE is better, meh, pathetic. All those years of work and attempt to improve linux desktop all in vain, no one will have need for it because it didnt adapt to user needs and new tech.

Im actually really glad Apple is switching Mac's to ARM, if it can succesfully port Mac x86 apps to ARM even better, it will probably force others to do it aswell, looking at you google, MS has already showed a demo of x86 apps running on W10 on ARM without issues.

Sorry but this doesn't really mean nothing and has really anything to do with standardization and compatibility, wm and compositors don't mean nothing, you can run Linux apps without one. Just run a program in a single X.org session, you can do that without any compositor

How could be when it had more features years before than MacOS and Windows? Like night shift mode on desktops, multiple desktops, customization, phone notification directly from the desktop, and I could still say things

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Mac devices and now Microsoft surface devices you get all the support you would expect day 1, you boot it up it works. Regular Windows desktop is lagging a bit behind, but linux desktop is many years behind, thats not good, no one wants that.

Maybe, and just maybe could be because Apple sells their OS with their hardware with all the drivers available? And Microsoft too since every computer has windows preinstalled?

And there also are Linux supported laptops like the XPS developer edition, would you call shitty an OS just because it doesn't support yours?

Never meant too, that's all community work and just required effort from companies which in the last years become considerable, like AMD offers decent graphics driver in the kernel directly, who told them?

There is no company paying them for doing that (unless for servers which is another thing where the market is alive and needs completely another speech)

Then I'll call shitty MacOS because it doesn't work on my desktop which was originally made and developed for a completely another computer, but it would if I put the drivers on it, isn't that the same thing? it never meant too but I made it this way, in the same way desktop linux developers that can also actually be companies do that

Linux doesn't come with this, it is just a community project and no company is pushing it to you for a desktop os, rather than some random people on the internet, "elitist" people you should not talk with, why do you care from what other people say? They did not even developed the product

Linux developers for desktop are just adapting and making drivers for Windows-made laptops, with or without the original manufacturer help or they could just decide to support it and stop,
it doesn't work on yours because it was made for windows and the driver couldn't be available out the box for Linux unless you wait some time

Damn, just use if it is supported, I don't even think people really understand the amount of effort people are putting in it, it basically came out of nowhere and people will just find reasons to blame it, as I already said no one is forcing you to use it, and in the case your system is supported is not even that bad to use really I don't see what your problems have to do with that

There isn't any company selling linux and saying "here is this called Linux OS that works on everything and it's meant to replace machines that originally come with Windows now use it because it supports everything"

As for the dual monitors issue, for X.org that's normal, since when Wayland became stable, a lot of X.org developers moved and are working actively to Wayland instead, in fact in wayland never had this problem, but probably X.org will still be updated

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Posted March 7, 2019

Reading through the responses--most of these are talking about Apple "turning off" the existing user base if they jettison the X86/AMD64 architecture based on the current slate of applications that depend on the current setup. It's really early days, you guys.

So a little history:

During the Steve Jobs days, the main issue that Apple had with IBM and PowerPC was its inability to efficiently scale after reaching G5. The PowerMac G5 towers had MASSIVE power and heat issues and some models even required water cooling. Some of these models developed leaks in their cooling loops, causing a lot of problems with enterprise customers.

A couple of things really frustrated Jobs about being stuck with the Power architecture and being beholden to an outside source for the chips. First, after announcing that they would launch 3GHz models within a year, they kept delaying until they gave up because IBM couldn't produce an acceptable chip; G5 models topped out at 2.7GHz. The G5 version of the iMac was famous for being like a desktop space heater. This all meant that despite plans and promises, Apple couldn't produce a G5 PowerBook laptop. (Intel had a similar architecture-power consumption issue with their NetBurst architecture; Prescott chips were famous for overheating, causing Intel to finally switch to Core)

The fascinating thing about MacOS that a lot of people don't know (or forgot) was that its Unix core was based on NeXTSTEP, which was an OS that NeXT, the company Jobs started after leaving Apple, created for their computers. The manufacturing computers part didn't work out for them, so before being acquired by Apple, they were an OS company. Jobs' daily driver machine was not an Apple Powerbook, but an IBM Thinkpad running NeXTSTEP. The word was that he hated the computers Apple was producing during his period of absence). NeXSTSTEP and the OpenStep successor API was already ported to the X86 architecture. Not sure who was responsible for the decision, (probably Avie Tevanian, the architect of NeXTSTEP and SVP of software engineering when he came over to Apple with Jobs), but they decided to secretly build an x86 version of OSX for every version of the PowerPC OS they released. A major reason why the PowerPC to Intel transition happened so smoothly was that most of the heavy lifting in the OS redesign was already done, and they already had experience migrating people from the old MacOS Classic to the Unix-based OSX. Most applications developed in XCode just needed to be recompiled with minor modifications to create a Universal binary that had could run on both PPC and x86 computers. Jobs famously announced the transition by announcing that the entire developer keynote he was giving was already working on a version of OSX running on an Intel Pentium 4 box. The dev kits were released, with an Intel processor board mounted in a modified PowerMac G5 case. One of the things people noticed most was the fact that the board/processor was laughably tiny compared with the latest and greatest G5:

Fast forward a little over a year later, and Apple announces that they've completed the transition across their product lines. PPC support would be phased out over the next several years. For many years, the Intel-Apple relationship would be very fruitful, even to the point where Jobs approached them about developing a mobile processor for the product that would eventually become the iPhone.

And then the Intel Tick-Tock processor cadence faltered. People commonly relied on upgrading their MacBooks on the expectation that a major processor upgrade would justify the arguably expensive decision to buy a new laptop.

The common thread that they were plagued with back then as they are faced with today, is that they depended on regular processor upgrades for their product refresh cadences. Every new iOS device touts a new version of the A-series processor that promises a vastly improved "performance per watt" proposition. It's partially what allows Apple to offer similar or better app performance on their phone compared to an "equivalent" processored Android phone with more RAM. When Apple announced that iOS was based on not a watered-down custom mobile OS, but a version of the same MacOS kernel compiled for ARM, it definitely raised some eyebrows in the developer community.

This is all a long way to reiterate that there's nothing to panic about... at least not yet. There are many valid complaints about their practices and priorities with respect to product design and engineering (e.g, keyboard design, loss of MagSafe, thermal design), but they have never released a new product that performed objectively worse than the one before. They release new categories to try out new things (e.g., the MacBook Air was their first product line to use the U-series processors, the 12" MacBook was the first to try out the m3/m5 processors). Their time window is long and allows them to move blocks around to see what the developer community does with it. They've never bet the company on a sudden and rapid pivot. They tend to sit back and allow others to try new technologies or trends (Microsoft UWP) first before coming up with their own refined variation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If Apple does transition the Mac platform to ARM, they won't try to replace your Core i7 MacBook Pro with an ARM version until they're confident that they have a processor that can match and outclass what they're replacing.

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Intel Confirms: Macs to switch to ARM by 2020.

ARM Computers yes/no? 319 members have voted

1. Would you buy an ARM computer as a daily driver?

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ARM Computers yes/no?
319 members have voted